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Speaker 1: Uber terms of employment case that rolls through the legal

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Speaker 1: system for drivers, of course winning the right to be

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Speaker 1: seen as employees. With the Court of Appeal upholding an

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Speaker 1: employment court case, Uber will most likely appeal this to

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. The employment to expert, Max Whitehead is

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Speaker 1: back with us on all of this. Max, Morning to you,

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Speaker 1: Good morning Mike.

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Speaker 2: Isn't this terrifying?

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Speaker 1: Well, there is terrifying, and can you explain it to

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Speaker 1: me because I don't understand it, despite the fact it

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Speaker 1: seems to be going this way in most courts around

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Speaker 1: the world. How do you enter into an agreement willingly

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Speaker 1: and then have a third party, ie court, say you

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Speaker 1: can't it's not right. I don't understand how it works.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, so what the courts are saying is the

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Speaker 2: way to enter into employment relationship is through this gateway,

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Speaker 2: which is the gateways even leg in terms of measuring

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Speaker 2: up whether you actually qualify to be an employee. In

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Speaker 2: Section six of the Employment Relations Act defines what an

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Speaker 2: employee is. Now, the application of Section six is quite subjective,

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Speaker 2: and I would say that this find some rules around

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Speaker 2: it to some degree. But for I think even the

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Speaker 2: Court of Appeal, which is said the judge looked at

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Speaker 2: it wrong. The Employment Court judge looked at it wrong,

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Speaker 2: but we agree with their outcome. It really is a

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Speaker 2: very loud signal that it's very much a subjective view

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Speaker 2: of it, and I think they're really flowing on for

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Speaker 2: what societies desire is. We've just had a government in

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Speaker 2: place which is union orientated and really for the benefit

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Speaker 2: of workers, as most employers know now because of the

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Speaker 2: costs have gone up immensely. But certainly big thing here

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand is ninety three percent of all ninety

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Speaker 2: seven percent of all businesses in New Zealand or enterprises

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand are small businesses and they are actually

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Speaker 2: operating very similar to Uber. Now you've imagined this decision,

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Speaker 2: if it really was carried through, it would really have

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Speaker 2: a huge impact on New Zealand's economy, on the people work.

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Speaker 2: I would say a lot of businesses will leave down

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Speaker 2: something be surprised. Uber is just one of the unions

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Speaker 2: of top nine hundred employees looking for back pay. If

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Speaker 2: this decision came out and.

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Speaker 1: The flow and affixes one thing. So I was going

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Speaker 1: to ask about that. If you're quoting section six Section six,

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Speaker 1: then it potentially applies to everybody obviously, so is this

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Speaker 1: wider than uber? So in other words, it has a

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Speaker 1: chilling effect around a number of other industries. It's not

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Speaker 1: unique to you Uber.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's definitely going to affect other industries. While the

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Speaker 2: judge has been saying, oh, this only applies to four

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Speaker 2: individuals with an uber or, the reality is that it

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Speaker 2: will apply to everybody. Then. That's why we've got nine

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Speaker 2: hundred employees having a go at it already, and they've

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Speaker 2: got applications in the employment authority. So it's going to

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Speaker 2: carry on right. To imagine a construction company that employs contractors,

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Speaker 2: the way this decision has been put through clearly will

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Speaker 2: apply to those contractors and they could end up being employees.

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Speaker 2: Can I read just a small couple of sentences from

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Speaker 2: the decision. We consider it to be horribly clear that

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Speaker 2: the drivers are not in business of their own account

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Speaker 2: making the types of decisions that an independent business operator

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Speaker 2: would normally make. Now I would say ninety nine percent

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Speaker 2: or ninety percent of New Zealand contractors could be judged

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Speaker 2: the same. They're not in business, they're all employees. That's frightening, Mike.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that doesn't make any sense to me because

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Speaker 1: if I if I decide to do something, that's my choice,

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Speaker 1: isn't it Well not in New Zealand law.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's because we're quite a social state. The beg

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Speaker 2: unions have a very definite effect on this and certainly

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Speaker 2: they can walk into a workplace and say to the

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Speaker 2: two parties, the employee or the worker and the principle

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Speaker 2: of the organization, you guys have got it wrong. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to determine that all by going to the court

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Speaker 2: and getting back up.

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Speaker 1: So worry, well, let's they go to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: And of course it depends on what the Supreme Court says.

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Speaker 1: Of course makes why I appreciate your expertise. As always,

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Speaker 1: Employment split with us this morning.

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