1 00:00:07,173 --> 00:00:10,493 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast 2 00:00:10,613 --> 00:01:01,573 Speaker 1: from Newstalks edby. 3 00:00:36,613 --> 00:00:40,213 Speaker 2: You're a jactaim on Newstalgs EDB. Jody Picot is an 4 00:00:40,253 --> 00:00:44,533 Speaker 2: author with a pen game strong enough to induce real tears, 5 00:00:44,573 --> 00:00:46,773 Speaker 2: which you will know if you have ever read My 6 00:00:46,893 --> 00:00:50,493 Speaker 2: Sister's Keeper or seen the movie adaptation starring Cameron Diaz. 7 00:00:50,853 --> 00:00:54,053 Speaker 2: But Jody has written almost thirty books now she has 8 00:00:54,173 --> 00:00:59,173 Speaker 2: sold about forty million copies of her works forty million. 9 00:00:59,653 --> 00:01:04,173 Speaker 2: Of course, she writes across a diverse range of different genres, 10 00:01:04,173 --> 00:01:07,773 Speaker 2: from thrillers to romance novels to ghost stories, and her 11 00:01:07,933 --> 00:01:11,333 Speaker 2: latest book, By any Other Name is a step into 12 00:01:11,933 --> 00:01:16,933 Speaker 2: historical fiction of sorts, with intertwining narratives between two women, 13 00:01:17,093 --> 00:01:21,293 Speaker 2: both past and present. Jody Picot is with us this morning, Calder, 14 00:01:21,333 --> 00:01:22,133 Speaker 2: good morning. 15 00:01:22,333 --> 00:01:23,573 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Sam, to you. 16 00:01:24,333 --> 00:01:27,373 Speaker 2: It is great to be speaking with you, and congratulations 17 00:01:27,413 --> 00:01:29,453 Speaker 2: on By any Other Name. It is a story of 18 00:01:29,933 --> 00:01:35,493 Speaker 2: two fascinating women in two different eras who have some 19 00:01:35,693 --> 00:01:38,253 Speaker 2: experiences that could be defined as being shared and some 20 00:01:38,373 --> 00:01:41,013 Speaker 2: unique experiences as well. But perhaps you could start off 21 00:01:41,053 --> 00:01:44,773 Speaker 2: by explaining to our audience who is Amelia Bassano? 22 00:01:45,933 --> 00:01:51,533 Speaker 3: Sure so, Amelia Bassano is a real life historical figure 23 00:01:51,573 --> 00:01:57,533 Speaker 3: who was a female writer in the fifteen hundred sixteen hundreds. 24 00:01:58,293 --> 00:02:01,813 Speaker 3: She was the first published female poet in all of 25 00:02:01,853 --> 00:02:05,893 Speaker 3: England when she was in her late forties. However, it 26 00:02:05,973 --> 00:02:10,333 Speaker 3: is my belief, for many reasons, that she was actually 27 00:02:10,373 --> 00:02:14,213 Speaker 3: writing many years before that, and in fact paid someone 28 00:02:14,653 --> 00:02:16,573 Speaker 3: for the use of their name so that her work 29 00:02:16,573 --> 00:02:18,653 Speaker 3: could be shown in front of the public, because as 30 00:02:18,693 --> 00:02:21,013 Speaker 3: a female playwright, you could not have your work in 31 00:02:21,013 --> 00:02:24,133 Speaker 3: front of the public back then in Elizabethan times. And 32 00:02:24,213 --> 00:02:25,933 Speaker 3: I think the guy she paid for the use of 33 00:02:25,973 --> 00:02:28,253 Speaker 3: his name was a little man named William Shakespeare. 34 00:02:29,333 --> 00:02:34,053 Speaker 2: I mean, that is just so tantalizing as a storyline 35 00:02:34,133 --> 00:02:36,133 Speaker 2: kind of thread, Right, How did you come across her 36 00:02:36,173 --> 00:02:36,773 Speaker 2: in the first place. 37 00:02:37,813 --> 00:02:41,693 Speaker 3: So I actually was an English major and I absolutely 38 00:02:41,773 --> 00:02:46,893 Speaker 3: loved Shakespeare. Maybe for five seconds in a seminar we 39 00:02:46,933 --> 00:02:49,253 Speaker 3: had a professor said, you know, there's a question about 40 00:02:49,253 --> 00:02:51,893 Speaker 3: whether Shakespeare wrote all his plays, and I laughed it off. 41 00:02:52,173 --> 00:02:53,853 Speaker 3: And then a few years ago I was reading an 42 00:02:53,933 --> 00:02:56,813 Speaker 3: article in the Atlantic by a woman named Elizabeth Winkler, 43 00:02:57,173 --> 00:03:01,693 Speaker 3: in which she said that Shakespeare had two daughters and 44 00:03:01,973 --> 00:03:04,573 Speaker 3: he never taught either of them to read or write. Now, 45 00:03:04,613 --> 00:03:06,373 Speaker 3: the reason I fell in love with Shakespeare was because 46 00:03:06,493 --> 00:03:09,613 Speaker 3: of the proto feminist characters like Portia and Beatrice and 47 00:03:09,733 --> 00:03:12,893 Speaker 3: Rosalind and Kate right, And I thought, oh, no, no, no, 48 00:03:12,973 --> 00:03:15,693 Speaker 3: there is no way that the guy who created those 49 00:03:15,733 --> 00:03:18,533 Speaker 3: three dimensional women wouldn't have taught his own daughters how 50 00:03:18,573 --> 00:03:20,933 Speaker 3: to read or write. I just didn't buy it. And 51 00:03:21,173 --> 00:03:23,933 Speaker 3: you know, lots of candidates have been posed as potential 52 00:03:23,973 --> 00:03:27,453 Speaker 3: authors of the Shakespearean plays, but I had never heard 53 00:03:27,453 --> 00:03:30,533 Speaker 3: of the one that this woman, Elizabeth Winkler, suggested, and 54 00:03:30,573 --> 00:03:33,773 Speaker 3: that was Amelia Bassano. And I started to do this 55 00:03:33,853 --> 00:03:37,413 Speaker 3: deep dive into her life. And the thing about Shakespeare's 56 00:03:37,413 --> 00:03:40,533 Speaker 3: life is that we know a lot about him, none 57 00:03:40,613 --> 00:03:43,693 Speaker 3: of which shows that he's actually a playwright. You know, 58 00:03:43,853 --> 00:03:47,173 Speaker 3: But for years academics have kind of twisted themselves up 59 00:03:47,173 --> 00:03:50,573 Speaker 3: in knots to explain away things that don't make sense 60 00:03:50,613 --> 00:03:54,613 Speaker 3: in his life. And Emilia's life fit very seamlessly into 61 00:03:54,653 --> 00:03:58,133 Speaker 3: all of those gaps. And because of that, I thought 62 00:03:58,133 --> 00:04:00,813 Speaker 3: it was certainly worth looking at. I mean, to me, 63 00:04:01,213 --> 00:04:03,813 Speaker 3: this is really a book about how women have been 64 00:04:03,813 --> 00:04:05,853 Speaker 3: written out of history by the men who were writing it, 65 00:04:05,893 --> 00:04:09,453 Speaker 3: and about how women's voices have been overlooked and silenced, 66 00:04:09,493 --> 00:04:12,693 Speaker 3: and are still being silenced today in many places. So 67 00:04:12,733 --> 00:04:14,293 Speaker 3: in a way, it's a very weird thing to have 68 00:04:14,333 --> 00:04:17,533 Speaker 3: written a book that takes place half the time in Elizabethan, England. 69 00:04:17,573 --> 00:04:20,573 Speaker 3: That is probably the most timely novel I ever written. 70 00:04:21,693 --> 00:04:25,253 Speaker 2: It is certainly timely, even through your own experience, which 71 00:04:25,293 --> 00:04:27,453 Speaker 2: we will get to in a moment. So you said 72 00:04:27,453 --> 00:04:29,853 Speaker 2: you were a Shakespeare fan. Was that kind of was 73 00:04:29,853 --> 00:04:33,333 Speaker 2: it you fall in love immediately or was it something 74 00:04:33,333 --> 00:04:35,493 Speaker 2: whereby once you kind of engage and was able and 75 00:04:35,533 --> 00:04:38,093 Speaker 2: were able to unwrap the language and the storyline, arcs 76 00:04:38,133 --> 00:04:40,133 Speaker 2: and the incredible depth of some of those characters at 77 00:04:40,173 --> 00:04:40,893 Speaker 2: the very least that you. 78 00:04:40,933 --> 00:04:44,373 Speaker 3: Really I mean, certainly, I you know, I think my 79 00:04:44,453 --> 00:04:47,653 Speaker 3: favorite play is actually Romeo and Juliet, very pedantic, but 80 00:04:48,053 --> 00:04:49,933 Speaker 3: the first one I read, and I'm still you know, 81 00:04:50,013 --> 00:04:51,893 Speaker 3: I'm happily married, and I've been still waiting for a 82 00:04:51,933 --> 00:04:53,373 Speaker 3: guy to come up and just speak in the son 83 00:04:53,453 --> 00:04:55,573 Speaker 3: and naturally is it. 84 00:04:55,653 --> 00:04:58,973 Speaker 2: Too much to ask, Jody? Is it too much to ask? Right? 85 00:04:59,493 --> 00:05:02,653 Speaker 3: But you know, I love that play for so many reasons. 86 00:05:02,733 --> 00:05:05,213 Speaker 3: And then as I began to study more of the plays, 87 00:05:05,213 --> 00:05:06,813 Speaker 3: and really I fell in love, like I said, with 88 00:05:06,853 --> 00:05:09,653 Speaker 3: the language, but also with these female characters who were 89 00:05:09,853 --> 00:05:12,773 Speaker 3: just so richly drawn, because that was not a norm 90 00:05:12,813 --> 00:05:15,813 Speaker 3: of the time. And maybe that's because it was a 91 00:05:15,893 --> 00:05:19,813 Speaker 3: woman writing them, you know, so, I mean certainly I 92 00:05:20,293 --> 00:05:23,893 Speaker 3: then also I think I had a tendency in college 93 00:05:23,933 --> 00:05:28,093 Speaker 3: to canonize Shakespeare. We talk a lot about Shakespeare almost 94 00:05:28,133 --> 00:05:32,133 Speaker 3: in mythological terms. You know, someone who wrote thirty eight 95 00:05:32,133 --> 00:05:34,733 Speaker 3: plays while he had had two full time jobs. He 96 00:05:34,853 --> 00:05:37,573 Speaker 3: was a producer and an actor. He was apparently the 97 00:05:37,613 --> 00:05:39,653 Speaker 3: only play right in all of Elizabeth in England who 98 00:05:39,653 --> 00:05:43,253 Speaker 3: didn't collaborate, you know, which makes zero sense, you know, 99 00:05:43,453 --> 00:05:46,613 Speaker 3: but that's not really that's not really the story. That's 100 00:05:46,653 --> 00:05:48,933 Speaker 3: what's been created around him to create to make him 101 00:05:48,973 --> 00:05:52,533 Speaker 3: the bard. What do we know about you know, Shakespeare? 102 00:05:52,573 --> 00:05:55,653 Speaker 3: Literally We know that he was a businessman above all else. 103 00:05:55,973 --> 00:05:58,693 Speaker 3: We know that he evaded taxes twice. We know that 104 00:05:58,813 --> 00:06:01,773 Speaker 3: he had restraining orders taken out against him by colleagues. 105 00:06:01,973 --> 00:06:03,973 Speaker 3: We know that when there was a famine he bought 106 00:06:04,053 --> 00:06:06,013 Speaker 3: up all the grain in Stratford and jacked up the 107 00:06:06,053 --> 00:06:09,253 Speaker 3: price for his neighbors. He was a lovely We know 108 00:06:09,333 --> 00:06:12,213 Speaker 3: that he never left the country, although he wrote about 109 00:06:12,253 --> 00:06:16,533 Speaker 3: places like Denmark and Italy and Egypt with details that 110 00:06:16,573 --> 00:06:19,093 Speaker 3: weren't available in guide books. We know he never played 111 00:06:19,093 --> 00:06:22,493 Speaker 3: an instrument, but there are more references to musical knowledge 112 00:06:22,493 --> 00:06:25,413 Speaker 3: in the Shakespeare plays than any other body of literature. 113 00:06:25,613 --> 00:06:28,453 Speaker 3: We know he wasn't university educated, but when he died 114 00:06:28,493 --> 00:06:30,773 Speaker 3: he didn't own a single book of his own. And 115 00:06:30,933 --> 00:06:35,173 Speaker 3: when he also he had no praise from any other playwrights, 116 00:06:35,653 --> 00:06:37,813 Speaker 3: which is also very strange for someone who was the 117 00:06:37,813 --> 00:06:40,533 Speaker 3: best known name of the time. What we don't know 118 00:06:40,613 --> 00:06:44,133 Speaker 3: about him that he wrote a single word attributed to him. 119 00:06:44,573 --> 00:06:48,813 Speaker 2: It's so delicious. Just as a prospect, did you find 120 00:06:48,853 --> 00:06:53,333 Speaker 2: then that after this proceeds, compared to how you first 121 00:06:53,333 --> 00:06:55,413 Speaker 2: engage with Shakespeare, do you think least of the man? 122 00:06:56,733 --> 00:07:00,693 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, wayless, you know, But also more importantly, I 123 00:07:00,693 --> 00:07:04,013 Speaker 3: think more of Amelia. Yeah right, So Amelia, like, let's 124 00:07:04,053 --> 00:07:07,133 Speaker 3: look at her life in counterpoint. So she is born 125 00:07:07,173 --> 00:07:12,533 Speaker 3: to an Italian family, and her family is incredibly talented musically. 126 00:07:12,813 --> 00:07:14,613 Speaker 3: They are found by Henry the eighth and they're brought 127 00:07:14,693 --> 00:07:17,373 Speaker 3: over to England as the recorder consort to the King 128 00:07:17,613 --> 00:07:20,213 Speaker 3: and then to Queen she's Jewish, but she has to 129 00:07:20,293 --> 00:07:22,093 Speaker 3: hide her faith because you couldn't be Jewish at the 130 00:07:22,093 --> 00:07:24,653 Speaker 3: time in England. At seven, her dad dies and she's 131 00:07:24,693 --> 00:07:27,853 Speaker 3: given as award to this countess, and it's the best 132 00:07:27,853 --> 00:07:30,573 Speaker 3: situation for her because she winds up getting this amazing 133 00:07:30,693 --> 00:07:34,173 Speaker 3: legal and classical education. When the countess gets remarried and 134 00:07:34,213 --> 00:07:36,933 Speaker 3: she's twelve years old, she winds up living with the 135 00:07:36,933 --> 00:07:39,813 Speaker 3: countess's brother for a summer, the same summer that he 136 00:07:39,893 --> 00:07:42,133 Speaker 3: as ambassador to Denmark, went to go visit the King 137 00:07:42,173 --> 00:07:46,613 Speaker 3: and Queen there, and you know characters that happen to 138 00:07:46,733 --> 00:07:51,053 Speaker 3: be named in Hamlet, although again Shakespeare never went to Denmark. 139 00:07:51,533 --> 00:07:54,093 Speaker 3: The next year, she becomes the mistress at age thirteen 140 00:07:54,133 --> 00:07:56,893 Speaker 3: to the Lord Chamberlain of England and for ten years 141 00:07:56,893 --> 00:08:00,173 Speaker 3: she's with him. He's fifty six years old, huge age difference, 142 00:08:00,413 --> 00:08:02,853 Speaker 3: but he's in charge of all theater in England. So 143 00:08:02,973 --> 00:08:05,013 Speaker 3: through him, she is going to see every play that 144 00:08:05,053 --> 00:08:08,453 Speaker 3: crosses his desk, to meet all the playwrights, all the producers, 145 00:08:08,613 --> 00:08:11,573 Speaker 3: all the theater owners. She's going to be immersed in 146 00:08:11,613 --> 00:08:14,493 Speaker 3: that world. When she gets pregnant at twenty three, he 147 00:08:14,573 --> 00:08:18,013 Speaker 3: marries her off to her wastrel of a cousin, because 148 00:08:18,013 --> 00:08:20,013 Speaker 3: you couldn't have a pregnant mistress living in your house 149 00:08:20,013 --> 00:08:24,013 Speaker 3: when you were married. And this guy is a terrible man, 150 00:08:24,253 --> 00:08:27,133 Speaker 3: he's our cousin. He blows through all the money that 151 00:08:27,173 --> 00:08:29,413 Speaker 3: the Lord Chamberlain has settled on her to keep her 152 00:08:29,453 --> 00:08:32,253 Speaker 3: safe for years, and she winds up at twenty three 153 00:08:32,253 --> 00:08:34,693 Speaker 3: with a kid, a husband she hates, and she has 154 00:08:34,733 --> 00:08:37,493 Speaker 3: to somehow make a living. And then we don't know 155 00:08:37,533 --> 00:08:40,173 Speaker 3: what happens until we see that book of poetry that 156 00:08:40,213 --> 00:08:43,973 Speaker 3: she publishes in sixteen eleven. But there are decades between them, 157 00:08:44,213 --> 00:08:46,493 Speaker 3: which leads to believe you know, she was writing under 158 00:08:46,493 --> 00:08:47,293 Speaker 3: someone else's name. 159 00:08:47,413 --> 00:08:51,373 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure that everyone asks you about this, but 160 00:08:51,493 --> 00:08:54,533 Speaker 2: you are famed for the depths of your research and 161 00:08:55,013 --> 00:08:56,933 Speaker 2: your novel. So, just to remind our listeners, and this 162 00:08:57,013 --> 00:08:59,853 Speaker 2: is only a short selection, you have lived briefly with 163 00:08:59,893 --> 00:09:03,453 Speaker 2: the Amish, traveled to Botswana, you have been to prison, 164 00:09:03,613 --> 00:09:07,333 Speaker 2: you've observed cardio surgery. So what kind of research was 165 00:09:07,373 --> 00:09:09,173 Speaker 2: involved in by any other name? 166 00:09:10,653 --> 00:09:13,733 Speaker 3: So I wound up, first of all, finding all the 167 00:09:13,893 --> 00:09:17,853 Speaker 3: historical primary sources that I could find about Amelia, which 168 00:09:17,893 --> 00:09:20,933 Speaker 3: are not many. Most of her life we know about 169 00:09:20,973 --> 00:09:25,333 Speaker 3: because of a diary of this astrologer slash hack doctor 170 00:09:25,413 --> 00:09:28,173 Speaker 3: that she went to when she was having all these miscarriages. 171 00:09:28,413 --> 00:09:31,093 Speaker 3: And he kept the amazing diaries in which he talks 172 00:09:31,133 --> 00:09:33,253 Speaker 3: about what she said to him, and also how he 173 00:09:33,333 --> 00:09:34,653 Speaker 3: tried to get her to sleep with him and she 174 00:09:34,693 --> 00:09:37,533 Speaker 3: said no anyway. And so this diary is in the 175 00:09:37,573 --> 00:09:41,453 Speaker 3: Ashmolean now, and in it, you know, all everything I 176 00:09:41,573 --> 00:09:43,933 Speaker 3: just told you about her life is all in that diary. 177 00:09:44,613 --> 00:09:49,053 Speaker 3: I also wound up speaking to multiple academics, a lot 178 00:09:49,093 --> 00:09:52,213 Speaker 3: of female Shakespeare scholars. In particular. I talked to the 179 00:09:52,213 --> 00:09:55,613 Speaker 3: head historian at the Globe Theater. I had this amazing 180 00:09:55,813 --> 00:10:01,333 Speaker 3: document that was someone God blessed them put digitized every 181 00:10:01,453 --> 00:10:04,853 Speaker 3: single day of Queen Elizabeth the First's reign, so I 182 00:10:04,973 --> 00:10:08,653 Speaker 3: knew what happened single day. So when I read about 183 00:10:08,653 --> 00:10:10,933 Speaker 3: a joust, it happened on that day. And when I 184 00:10:10,973 --> 00:10:13,573 Speaker 3: tell you after it was on a mission. He was 185 00:10:13,613 --> 00:10:16,013 Speaker 3: on a mission, so I was able to really reference 186 00:10:16,053 --> 00:10:19,373 Speaker 3: it historically. There's also an incredible map called the August 187 00:10:19,413 --> 00:10:23,053 Speaker 3: Map that another wonderful author, Deborah Harkness, put me onto, 188 00:10:23,453 --> 00:10:26,893 Speaker 3: and it allows you to overlay Elizabethan England on top 189 00:10:26,933 --> 00:10:30,213 Speaker 3: of modern England, so you can see exactly where all 190 00:10:30,253 --> 00:10:32,333 Speaker 3: the places were that I was writing about. So I 191 00:10:32,373 --> 00:10:35,213 Speaker 3: was kind of juggling all of this Elizabethan stuff, you know, 192 00:10:35,293 --> 00:10:38,173 Speaker 3: in my head as I was writing Amelia. 193 00:10:38,293 --> 00:10:40,493 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's extraordinary. How amazing to have that, you know, 194 00:10:40,533 --> 00:10:43,293 Speaker 2: those kind of resources. I suppose it's given the nature 195 00:10:43,293 --> 00:10:45,413 Speaker 2: of the subject, you're fortunate to be able to benefit 196 00:10:45,453 --> 00:10:48,853 Speaker 2: from some of those things. Like I mentioned, as you mentioned, 197 00:10:49,773 --> 00:10:53,453 Speaker 2: women's voices are still being silenced in certain spaces. I 198 00:10:53,453 --> 00:10:56,693 Speaker 2: think it's just over a year now since a number 199 00:10:56,693 --> 00:11:00,933 Speaker 2: of your books were removed from schools after a public 200 00:11:01,053 --> 00:11:05,373 Speaker 2: campaign by advocacy groups who said they were inappropriate for 201 00:11:05,453 --> 00:11:08,413 Speaker 2: young readers. What the might of that whole experience. 202 00:11:09,133 --> 00:11:14,573 Speaker 3: I have become a very vocal advocate to fight book banning. 203 00:11:14,733 --> 00:11:17,933 Speaker 3: It is endemic in my country. It has only gotten worse. 204 00:11:20,133 --> 00:11:23,493 Speaker 3: My own books were banned well over forty times last 205 00:11:23,573 --> 00:11:27,413 Speaker 3: year alone in Iowa. Nineteen Minutes is the most banned 206 00:11:27,453 --> 00:11:30,853 Speaker 3: book in Iowa. Last week, state of Utah actually passed 207 00:11:30,853 --> 00:11:36,413 Speaker 3: a law that removes thirteen novels from bookshelves completely, which 208 00:11:36,453 --> 00:11:39,293 Speaker 3: is a straight out crazy band. I mean, it's a 209 00:11:39,413 --> 00:11:43,133 Speaker 3: very slippery slope, and it's very dangerous because you know, 210 00:11:43,213 --> 00:11:46,093 Speaker 3: when it's legitimate for a parent to decide what they 211 00:11:46,093 --> 00:11:48,493 Speaker 3: want their child to read, it is not legitimate for 212 00:11:48,533 --> 00:11:51,093 Speaker 3: that parent to make decisions about everybody else's child. And 213 00:11:51,133 --> 00:11:53,453 Speaker 3: of course it is a very slippery, slippery slope. We've 214 00:11:53,493 --> 00:11:58,013 Speaker 3: seen challenges increase ninety two percent in public libraries. We 215 00:11:58,093 --> 00:12:02,733 Speaker 3: have seen laws that are being passed to punish publishers 216 00:12:02,973 --> 00:12:07,533 Speaker 3: that send books directly to schools. And we've also seen 217 00:12:08,133 --> 00:12:11,813 Speaker 3: change some progress in that there are multiple lawsuits that 218 00:12:11,853 --> 00:12:15,853 Speaker 3: have been enacted against in Iowa and against people in Florida. 219 00:12:16,013 --> 00:12:19,853 Speaker 3: School districts in Florida that have enacted bands publishers and 220 00:12:19,893 --> 00:12:22,693 Speaker 3: writers are banding together to sue these school districts to 221 00:12:22,773 --> 00:12:25,053 Speaker 3: kind of raise awareness and to get these very poorly 222 00:12:25,133 --> 00:12:29,253 Speaker 3: worded laws overturned because now we have our educators living 223 00:12:29,293 --> 00:12:31,253 Speaker 3: in a culture of fear. But you know, to bring 224 00:12:31,293 --> 00:12:33,333 Speaker 3: it again back to by any other name, I think 225 00:12:33,413 --> 00:12:36,133 Speaker 3: that's what makes this so timely. We are in America, 226 00:12:36,453 --> 00:12:39,733 Speaker 3: We're watching women's reproductive rights being stripped away, and we 227 00:12:39,813 --> 00:12:42,733 Speaker 3: are still living in a time where people are making 228 00:12:42,773 --> 00:12:46,133 Speaker 3: decisions about what kind of stories should be told, and 229 00:12:46,173 --> 00:12:48,173 Speaker 3: who should be the people who tell them? That is 230 00:12:48,213 --> 00:12:49,893 Speaker 3: exactly what Elizabeth Thinninglan was. 231 00:12:49,853 --> 00:12:54,293 Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, just honestly just absurd. 232 00:12:55,613 --> 00:12:57,213 Speaker 2: To view it from the outside, it feels like the 233 00:12:57,213 --> 00:12:59,613 Speaker 2: real time erosion of civilization or something. I know that 234 00:12:59,653 --> 00:13:01,333 Speaker 2: sounds grandiose, but it feels like that. 235 00:13:02,173 --> 00:13:04,613 Speaker 3: Well, you know. The funny thing was, I very distinctly 236 00:13:05,213 --> 00:13:07,013 Speaker 3: remember writing a scene in this book in which a 237 00:13:07,133 --> 00:13:10,773 Speaker 3: Puritan was on an overturned great in front of one 238 00:13:10,813 --> 00:13:13,293 Speaker 3: of the theaters, and Elizabeth in England and this again 239 00:13:13,373 --> 00:13:16,333 Speaker 3: was lifted right out of history and was complaining about 240 00:13:16,373 --> 00:13:19,173 Speaker 3: the moral depravity of theater and how it took people 241 00:13:19,213 --> 00:13:22,693 Speaker 3: away from God and how all of these theaters needed 242 00:13:22,733 --> 00:13:25,093 Speaker 3: to be shut down. And I was reading, you know, 243 00:13:25,173 --> 00:13:27,453 Speaker 3: I'm writing this, and I'm reading what I'm writing, and 244 00:13:27,493 --> 00:13:29,733 Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh, these are the book banners. 245 00:13:29,773 --> 00:13:31,093 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just. 246 00:13:31,093 --> 00:13:33,893 Speaker 3: The same thing over and over again, this idea of 247 00:13:34,213 --> 00:13:38,333 Speaker 3: considered to be mature content and morally depraved. You know, 248 00:13:38,373 --> 00:13:43,333 Speaker 3: what they're calling morally depraved is actually the kind of 249 00:13:43,493 --> 00:13:46,253 Speaker 3: information that kids get to use to make sense of 250 00:13:46,333 --> 00:13:50,413 Speaker 3: a very difficult world that gives them a sense of 251 00:13:50,493 --> 00:13:54,293 Speaker 3: place and allows them to explore worlds and people they 252 00:13:54,333 --> 00:13:57,133 Speaker 3: don't know in a safe space. I mean, books create empathy. 253 00:13:57,493 --> 00:13:59,173 Speaker 3: Book bands, you know, destroy it. 254 00:13:59,933 --> 00:14:02,213 Speaker 2: I see the Black Lives Mate a sign behind you. 255 00:14:02,253 --> 00:14:03,253 Speaker 2: So how are you feeling? 256 00:14:03,293 --> 00:14:03,413 Speaker 3: Well? 257 00:14:03,413 --> 00:14:05,573 Speaker 2: Speaking of Shakespeare and uppose, how are you feeling about 258 00:14:05,573 --> 00:14:06,373 Speaker 2: the next hundred days? 259 00:14:08,533 --> 00:14:10,893 Speaker 3: Well, I feel a lot better than it was a 260 00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,533 Speaker 3: few weeks ago. Yeah, you know, it's been really interesting again. 261 00:14:16,053 --> 00:14:20,533 Speaker 3: I feel like this book, to me, feels so perfectly 262 00:14:20,613 --> 00:14:24,453 Speaker 3: placed because we are in We're at a crossroads in America. 263 00:14:24,453 --> 00:14:26,973 Speaker 3: I feel like we're literally standing here and in one 264 00:14:27,013 --> 00:14:30,573 Speaker 3: direction we have the threat of a national abortion pan 265 00:14:30,973 --> 00:14:33,293 Speaker 3: and on the other direction, we have the chance, a 266 00:14:33,373 --> 00:14:36,413 Speaker 3: very real chance. I think of having our first female 267 00:14:36,493 --> 00:14:39,933 Speaker 3: president of color, our first female president, and she happens 268 00:14:39,933 --> 00:14:42,453 Speaker 3: to be one of color. And you know, I'm kind 269 00:14:42,453 --> 00:14:45,093 Speaker 3: of like sitting here going, Okay, America, your move which 270 00:14:45,093 --> 00:14:49,533 Speaker 3: way you're gonna go? Yeah? You know, can I come 271 00:14:49,573 --> 00:14:50,693 Speaker 3: to New Zealand? Look? 272 00:14:50,733 --> 00:14:55,133 Speaker 2: Please? We would be delighted to have you, absolutely delighted. Yeah, 273 00:14:55,133 --> 00:14:57,653 Speaker 2: thank you so much for your time. Congratulations on by 274 00:14:57,693 --> 00:15:01,013 Speaker 2: any other name. I know listeners are just so excited 275 00:15:01,053 --> 00:15:03,293 Speaker 2: to get into it. And we do hope that we 276 00:15:03,333 --> 00:15:04,813 Speaker 2: see you in New Zealand sometime soon. 277 00:15:05,613 --> 00:15:07,573 Speaker 3: You too. I love it there. It's such a great country. 278 00:15:07,613 --> 00:15:08,453 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 279 00:15:08,533 --> 00:15:12,053 Speaker 2: Thanks Jody, that is Jody Picot. Her new book is 280 00:15:12,133 --> 00:15:14,613 Speaker 2: by any other name. All the details, of course, we're 281 00:15:14,653 --> 00:15:15,333 Speaker 2: up on the news Talks. 282 00:15:15,373 --> 00:15:19,173 Speaker 1: He'd be website for more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame. 283 00:15:19,333 --> 00:15:22,533 Speaker 1: Listen live to news Talks he'd be from nine am Saturday, 284 00:15:22,773 --> 00:15:24,773 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.