1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Right, this is a big thing. Health Commissioner Leicester Levy 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: has demanded an apology from Labor MP Aisha Verel at 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Select Committee today. What happened, Well, Leicester was fronting up 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: to the Select Committee as part of scrutiny week. He 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: was talking about Health New Zealand's finances and then Aisha 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: got up and did some of the old cross examining 7 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: thing and that got Lester and a few government MPs 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: quite riled up because this is what she said. 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Doctor Levy, given your reputation for cooking the box, did 10 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: any minister one order or. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: I don't think that's appropriate to attack in that manner. Well, 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: Asa Verel joins us, Now, how Aisa. 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: Good evening, Andrew. 14 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: It's pretty full on, isn't it. And one which you 15 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: repeated without privilege is the limited privilege in the Select Committee. 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: But you've said it outside as well, so you're pretty 17 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: confident you're telling the truth. But it's pretty full on. 18 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: Well. The important issue here is that the Order to 19 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: General has identified two transactions and two reversals that have 20 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: to be made to Healthy New Zealanders New Zealand's accounts 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: that show that they had tried to put costs into 22 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: the past financial years and that would have the result 23 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: of making that look worse and have it and make 24 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: the next financial year look better. And the reason this 25 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: matters is because New Zealanders have been told that health 26 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: services need to health budgets and services need to be 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: cut because Healthy New Zealands and are deficit. Well, we 28 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: found out over two hundred million of that deficit is 29 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: due to these unusual accounting treatments and that's actually what 30 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 2: we went into the sellectivity today. 31 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: Still well, cook the books suggest criminal activity. That's a 32 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: heavy fat. 33 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: Rubbish Andrew, that's actually rubbish. That's not a crime. What 34 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: it says is that there's. 35 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: A usual I said, the phrase cook in the books 36 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: is what you say to forsters. 37 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: No, it could be that these accounts have been presented 38 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: in a way that's non conventional. That's what cooked the 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: books means. And that's exactly what I'm saying. This is 40 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: pretty You have this process which is being used to 41 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: justify healthcats, where the Order to General said the accountment 42 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: treatment is not right. We also had the chief financial 43 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: Officer of Health New Zealand having her job changed and 44 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: she had to leave. Plus we had most of the 45 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: people in finance at Health New Zealand non disclosure agreement. 46 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: This is very strange. It needs to be explained. 47 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: A lot of this, of course very hard for many 48 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: people to actually compor a hand. But can I just 49 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: suggest that what you're suggesting is that when mister Levy 50 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: was in charge of dhb's he made the accounts look better, 51 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: and now that he's in charge of Health New Zealand, 52 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: he's making the accounts look worse. 53 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: Well that what I read to lest Levy around that 54 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: the treatment of DHBs was a quote already in the public. 55 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: Donated, so the impression here. 56 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: Back in June, the government told the country that there 57 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: was a massive deficit at health in New Zealand and 58 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: that a commissioner is being brought in and that said 59 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: and train a series of cuts to health services, that 60 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: have nurses on strike, that people being told that they 61 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: can't even get on wasting lists, and all of this 62 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: is because of the finances. So of course it's incredibly 63 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: important that we understand the finances. And this is the 64 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: point there's been these irregularity. That is totally my job 65 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: as a parliamentarian. 66 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: I get the impression of them, I shall I get 67 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: the impression you're not going to apologize. 68 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: Well, the I'm not going to apologize when the Health 69 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: New Zealand accounced land in Parliament on the day of 70 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: scrutiny Week, when every other grown entity has them in 71 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: Parliament beforehand, it does seem like there are repeated opportunity, 72 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: a repeated measures taken by the government to make sure 73 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: we don't have the information we need to get to 74 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: the bottom of these very important questions for the New 75 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: Zealand public. But also if you go to if you 76 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: go to leave, they ask the outlined a very different 77 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: process to the chair of the sleept We'll see what 78 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: comes with that. 79 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: You've also accused Leaster of manufacturing a crisis, but the 80 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: thing is he was brought to actually fix a crisis. 81 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: He can't manufacture the crisis when he wasn't there to 82 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: manufacturer in the first place. 83 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: There are signs of a manufactured crisis across the country. 84 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: You look at the fact that the government claimed that 85 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: there was a three billion dollar cost of need in 86 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: hospital and then they've never actually provided the unreducted documents 87 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: to prove that's the case. You look at what they've done, 88 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: what the Health New Zealand accounts, which are just detailed. 89 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: They said it was going to be a one what 90 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: was it a one point for? And then a one 91 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: point eight billion dollar deficit and neither of those figures 92 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: are any longer on the car the count set and 93 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: they were two hundred million dollars out. All of these 94 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: things are being used to justify cuts the services that 95 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: all ordinary New Zealanders need and deserve. That is exactly 96 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 2: what a manufactured crisis is. 97 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: Okay, but using such inflammatory language completely diverts the attention 98 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: away from the issues that you are talking about. 99 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: Now, Andrew, this is a robust radio show. You It's 100 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: routine on this show that you hold people to account. 101 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 2: Are we really saying in New Zealand? It's too tough 102 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: to say to a public official cook the box? Is 103 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: that really the case? Because that seems to be incredibly fragile. 104 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: If you look up cook the Books and the Oxford Dictionary, 105 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: its associated with a legal fraud of behavior. And because 106 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be surprised if Lester Levy wanted to take 107 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: a defamation case against you, well, ye all he asked 108 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: for was an apology. Well, if you're going to go 109 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: around telling people that crooks the whole time. Are they 110 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: ever going to do anything great? 111 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that that's not the point. I 112 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 2: asked him a fair enough question about the treatment of 113 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: health New Zealand accounts, and the fact is that what 114 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: was presented to our committee last and September, a week 115 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: after he appeared, I might add, is very different and 116 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: that tells a very different story. I think it's totally 117 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: fair for us to hold people to account on this. 118 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: Very good and I thank you for your time today. 119 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: Thank you Hi Severil, who is not going to say sorry. 120 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: For more from Hither duplessy Ellen Drive and Live to 121 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: News Talks. 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