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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalks.

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Speaker 2: Edb Lee reached the midway point of the Rugby World

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Speaker 2: Cup cycle and the.

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Speaker 3: Curtain comes down on season twenty twenty five for the

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Speaker 3: All Blacks, No brand Slam, three losses, Ken wins, final

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Speaker 3: score fifty two to twenty six and Cardiff.

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Speaker 2: So we're done, All done for twenty twenty five. The

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Speaker 2: end of season review for the All Blacks will now commence.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it may already have. So what is the

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Speaker 2: best approach to something like this? Do you rebuild or

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Speaker 2: do you continue to build? Do you change nothing? Do

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Speaker 2: you change everything? Do you change some things? And if

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Speaker 2: it's the last one, what do you change? And how

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Speaker 2: do you know were you going to get your biggest

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Speaker 2: bang for buck. Let's get some expert insight into this

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Speaker 2: from coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith, a regular contributor to Weekend

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Speaker 2: Sports and a real font of knowledge when it comes

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Speaker 2: to this sort of thing, Wayne, can we look at

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Speaker 2: those three options? Change everything, change nothing, or change some things.

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Speaker 2: If you change nothing, is that even an option these

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Speaker 2: days to do nothing, to just keep on doing the

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Speaker 2: same things you know? Or is it actually an option.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that the all Blacks case, but if

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Speaker 2: something isn't broke, do you really not need to fix it?

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Speaker 4: It's twenty It's such a fascinating concept to consider, isn't so?

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Speaker 4: For example, if someone said to me, Wayne, we've recruited

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Speaker 4: you in twenty twenty eight to win some Olympic gold

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Speaker 4: medals in twenty thirty two, medially, my brain is saying, look,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to build progressively over the first year two years.

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Speaker 4: Then we're going to refine some elements because I want

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Speaker 4: to be at my peak on that day in that

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Speaker 4: place in.

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Speaker 5: Twenty thirty two.

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Speaker 4: Whether I show what we're doing or give away too

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Speaker 4: much in the lead up, that's an issue for debate.

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Speaker 5: And I think, just looking at Spring Tour at.

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Speaker 4: The moment, that's the question I've got is how many

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Speaker 4: of the teams say all black spring box wallabies to

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Speaker 4: a certain extent, how many of them are on a

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Speaker 4: path that they've put in place two years ago or

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Speaker 4: even earlier with the aim of peaking, and they believe

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Speaker 4: that they're on track. How many of them have got

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Speaker 4: to sit back and go, well, I know we said

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Speaker 4: we're going to do that and I know we're going

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Speaker 4: to focus on a defensive game or an attacking game

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Speaker 4: or a counter attacking game. How many of them go,

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Speaker 4: I know, we said that, but it's just not working.

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Speaker 4: Two years is enough time for us to change.

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Speaker 5: And some of it is. You know, I look at

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Speaker 5: it and think, is what we're seeing? What we're seeing?

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Speaker 4: So are we seeing a true reflection of teams building

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Speaker 4: towards greatness in two years? Are we seeing teams that

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Speaker 4: have just lost the plot and don't know? And what

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Speaker 4: then as a result? What needs to be changed? How

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Speaker 4: does it need to be changed? When does it need

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Speaker 4: to be changed?

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Speaker 5: And how will I know even if that works? Is

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Speaker 5: the Spring tour, for.

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Speaker 4: Example, the benchmark and the guide to see whether or

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Speaker 4: not our plan for two years is on place? Is

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Speaker 4: that the Southern Hemisphere competitions. These are huge questions that

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Speaker 4: everyone's battling with at the moment.

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Speaker 2: The big picture is such an interesting topic for me

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Speaker 2: because you know, in rugby circles, international rugby circles, big

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Speaker 2: picture is the Rugby World Cup. But in these days

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Speaker 2: of instant gratification, particularly as you know Wayne over here,

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Speaker 2: whether all Blacks are expected to win every single test match,

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Speaker 2: they play. How challenging is it to keep your eyes

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Speaker 2: on the big picture.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's part of I think also being confident and

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Speaker 4: and comfortable in the vision and the plans that you

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Speaker 4: put in place when you took over the job. So

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Speaker 4: when you came in and said, look, I'm very confident

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Speaker 4: we've got this staff, the leadership, the funding, the players

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Speaker 4: to be really successful in Rugby World Cup. But it's

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Speaker 4: going to take a bit of time because the Irish

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Speaker 4: have really picked up. We've got two time defending World championships.

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Speaker 4: In the South Africans, we're seeing some growth in Argentina

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Speaker 4: and the competition's got tougher and even as we've seen

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Speaker 4: a little bit with France. So we're confident we can

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Speaker 4: be right in four years, but we may not be

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Speaker 4: absolutely sharpen out our best until that last eighteen months.

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Speaker 4: And you've got to be able to sell that to

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Speaker 4: the board. You've got to be able to sell that

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Speaker 4: to the fans, to the media, and to the players

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Speaker 4: and to the provincial union. You to be able to

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Speaker 4: sell it to everybody to say, yeah, sure we'd like

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Speaker 4: to be winning, but we are faith in you.

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Speaker 5: We know that you're heading in the right direction. We've

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Speaker 5: seen your bigger.

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Speaker 4: Vision, and it's okay that you're not winning everything right

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Speaker 4: now because we want that Rugby World Club desperately in

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Speaker 4: two years, and they'll give you a little bit of slack.

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Speaker 4: I think if you haven't sold your vision, well, people

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Speaker 4: start chipping away.

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Speaker 5: And you know, of course it's interesting, isn't it. You know,

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Speaker 5: it don't matter what's going wrong. What's the solution? Sack

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Speaker 5: the head coach. It could be it doesn't matter what's

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Speaker 5: going wrong.

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Speaker 4: That's always the first solution that people will turn to.

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Speaker 4: And if the head coach has got a great vision

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Speaker 4: for peaking at the right time and dominating the next

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Speaker 4: Rugby World Cup, when second next the head coach would

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Speaker 4: be the dumbest thing you could do. And that's the trick,

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Speaker 4: isn't it? Is what do I need to keep doing?

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Speaker 4: What do I need to stop doing? And then what

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Speaker 4: do I need to introduce? Is there anything new that

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Speaker 4: I can bring in that's going to make a big difference.

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Speaker 4: The problem we're changing too many things, Pinteer is the

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Speaker 4: players start the panic. If you go, hey, guys, I

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Speaker 4: know I sold you the vision, and I know we

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Speaker 4: talked about this master plan and peaking in the next.

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Speaker 5: Rugby World Cup. And I know I told you that,

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Speaker 5: but I'm going to change one hundred and twenty.

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Speaker 4: Sixties because you've got to be really careful, because if

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Speaker 4: you've got that high sense of ball leave from the

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Speaker 4: team that what you're doing.

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Speaker 5: Is right and it's going to everything's going to come

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Speaker 5: good and the rosy in the Rugby World Cup.

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Speaker 4: And you start to change things too dramatically, now will

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Speaker 4: they start to think, Hang on a minute, what are

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Speaker 4: we following this guy for? He told us and we

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Speaker 4: believed in it, and now he's changing everything about the team.

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Speaker 5: So even if you come up with the right.

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Speaker 4: Solution, you've got to be very clever and very strategic

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Speaker 4: about how you introduce the change.

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Speaker 2: All right, I want to come to that in a minute.

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Speaker 2: The option of changing some things. But over here we'

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Speaker 2: and you alluded to it there, you know, complete change,

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Speaker 2: the nuclear option, as it's called. Over here, we change

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Speaker 2: the coaching staff completely. We sacked the head coach and

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Speaker 2: in the next two years we put faith in somebody else.

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Speaker 2: When and how do you know if that is actually

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Speaker 2: an option?

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Speaker 5: Well, that's dearly. That's the purpose of reviews.

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Speaker 4: I know when I do reviews now, whether it's NRL

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Speaker 4: or professional teams, Olympic sports, it takes me a week

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Speaker 4: or so, and most of the time I'm just talking

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Speaker 4: to people and you start to get a feel for

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Speaker 4: what do people feel?

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Speaker 5: So what are they Because you know, it's sport pointing,

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Speaker 5: We're rarely.

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Speaker 4: Dealing with logic. We can throw stats and data at people,

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Speaker 4: but so much of this industry is what are people

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Speaker 4: for you? What do people think? We can throw all

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Speaker 4: the data you're like, you can say, look, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Defense is slowly improving ball retentions, improving breakdowns and getting but.

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Speaker 5: He's the data to prove it.

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Speaker 4: But if the players and the staff and the people

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Speaker 4: around the team don't believe it and they're not feeling it,

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Speaker 4: then that all the data in the world's not going

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Speaker 4: to make any difference.

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Speaker 5: That's that's a critical thing.

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Speaker 4: So I like to go and get a feel and

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Speaker 4: an understanding what what people think, believe and feel before

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Speaker 4: I look at the data.

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Speaker 5: And that's really important. So I would be I would

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Speaker 5: be imagining that they're.

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Speaker 4: Going through that process now and when to get real

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Speaker 4: understanding for exactly you know that great line no good

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Speaker 4: coming up with a great solution to the wrong problem,

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Speaker 4: and I think doing the nuclear option. You know, I

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Speaker 4: would do the nuclear option if I could show that

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Speaker 4: everything was falling apart. So if the coaches had lost

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Speaker 4: the faith of the change room, if our data was

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Speaker 4: going terribly, if staff and players were saying, look, this

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Speaker 4: is just the wrong way to go, we don't believe

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Speaker 4: in them, if there was real obvious of internal politics,

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Speaker 4: if there was a disconnect with the player group, if

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Speaker 4: there were a lot of things wrong, then of course

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Speaker 4: you've got to look at big solutions when there's big problems.

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Speaker 4: But I rarely see that rarely, So usually it's it's

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Speaker 4: it's just little things that need tweaking.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well let's go to that then, because I

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Speaker 2: get the feeling that's what they'll do. They won't, you know,

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Speaker 2: the decision makers say, right, keep on doing what you're doing,

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Speaker 2: because clearly there are still you know, some some gaps

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Speaker 2: and performance. They're not going to I don't think it

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Speaker 2: to the coaching staff. So let's go to option three.

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Speaker 2: You change some things. So how do you know, how

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Speaker 2: do you decide what to change what not to change.

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Speaker 2: Do you look at what the opposition are doing? Do

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Speaker 2: you stick true to your own path. How do you know, Wane,

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Speaker 2: where you're going to get your biggest bang for buck

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Speaker 2: in changing some things?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think with you guys made you And I've

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Speaker 4: had a few laughs about this over the years, is

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Speaker 4: that my view of New Zealander is generally in sport,

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Speaker 4: is you just don't have enough faith in yourself. When

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Speaker 4: I was in Canada recently and then Ireland and England,

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Speaker 4: the all Blacks.

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Speaker 5: The respect and the esteem.

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Speaker 4: And the way they're looked at not just as a team,

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Speaker 4: but their culture and their history of excellence. And if

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Speaker 4: you read an Ocus new book, I mean it's just

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Speaker 4: whether you're winning on this spring too. You have been

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Speaker 4: the benchmark for one hundred and twenty years and never

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Speaker 4: forget that. I think that the biggest danger Pone is

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Speaker 4: you go, you know what, the Irish really came at

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Speaker 4: us here, here and here We've got to change because

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Speaker 4: that's what the Irish are doing. Or you go to

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Speaker 4: the South Africans, they will like steam rollers. We've got

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Speaker 4: to change because that's what the South Africans are doing.

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Speaker 5: That's dumb, dumb, dumb.

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Speaker 4: The reason that you guys are respected so much around

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Speaker 4: the world and have been and will always be in

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Speaker 4: my view, is because you play like your places. It's

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Speaker 4: a relentless, remorseless, fast, highly technical. The way you play

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Speaker 4: is what everyone else spends their time trying to figure

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Speaker 4: out how to beat you. And the big mistake you

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Speaker 4: would make if I was again tied up with your

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Speaker 4: Black Seas. Don't shift from always from being what I

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Speaker 4: call the hunted, the thinking you're now you're just hunters.

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Speaker 4: You are still considered the benchmark, the one that everyone

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Speaker 4: wants to beat around the world. So the changes need

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Speaker 4: to be New Zealand changes. They need to be, well,

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Speaker 4: what do we do well when we're playing and dominating?

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Speaker 5: What is it about us?

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Speaker 4: Relentless counter attack, incredibly powerful defense, acceleration and speed to

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Speaker 4: break down, brilliant attacking play, incredible accuracy with our kicking game.

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Speaker 4: They're the things that have made the All Blacks exceptional

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Speaker 4: for so long. If you're going to make changes, make

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Speaker 4: New Zealand changes. Don't get sucked in to thinking, well,

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Speaker 4: we'll steal that from South Africa, and we'll pinch that

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Speaker 4: from the Poems, and will steal that from Ireland?

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Speaker 5: Does it no?

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Speaker 4: But that would be the single biggest mistake you can

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Speaker 4: may have faith in yourselves.

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Speaker 2: Just to finish. Then if you and I are chatting

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Speaker 2: a year from now, and I'm sure we will be,

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Speaker 2: and it's a year out from the World Cup and

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Speaker 2: the All Blacks are still off crack a little bit,

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Speaker 2: there are still work ons. Is November twenty twenty six

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Speaker 2: too late to be ready for November twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 4: Look, I think what I know of the coaching staff,

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Speaker 4: and I would think you would have and I call it.

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Speaker 5: I call it the success flow chart.

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Speaker 4: I would go, right, what do we need to do

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Speaker 4: right here, right now to have a great December? General

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Speaker 4: obviously plays I'll have a break before they go back

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Speaker 4: to super ruggy.

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Speaker 5: But but I would.

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Speaker 4: Go, all right, Plan A is we stay on track,

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Speaker 4: we switch a few little things, and then we are

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Speaker 4: reassessed this time next year. Plan A is, if we're

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Speaker 4: going better, we do this, Plan B. If we're going

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Speaker 4: the same, we do this Plan C. If we're going

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Speaker 4: really down on the train, we do this. I would

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Speaker 4: think you need three plans ready and lined up to

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Speaker 4: go so that this time next year, no matter what

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Speaker 4: discussion you're on I are having, that they're not starting

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Speaker 4: from scratching, going oh, my god, what the hell do.

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Speaker 5: We Sorry, that's swear when, but what do we do?

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Speaker 5: You know, what do we do?

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Speaker 4: If you get to this time next year and you

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Speaker 4: don't have alternative paths, then that's when the organization will

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Speaker 4: force it on you. That's when you see those catastrophive

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Speaker 4: decisions like boards saying, right, you guys are all out.

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Speaker 4: We're bringing everybody in no matter what happens, highly successful

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Speaker 4: same as we are now, or catastrophic failures. I would

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Speaker 4: suggest very strongly the coaching staff and the leadership, you've

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Speaker 4: got to have three plans up your sleeve so that

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Speaker 4: you can come back from spring tour and go right.

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Speaker 5: It didn't work.

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Speaker 4: Quite the way we thought, we're still in treck bank

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Speaker 4: and Plan B is already in place. I would probably

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Speaker 4: even have some shadow staff kicking in Plan B and

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Speaker 4: see a little bit behind the scenes, so that if

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Speaker 4: you've got to make a last minute change, they were

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Speaker 4: already doing it. They're already We've already had that as

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Speaker 4: a contingency plan if this happens. And I know it's

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Speaker 4: counterintuitive because people say no, a high performance, totally committed,

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Speaker 4: uncompromising dedication to one plan.

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Speaker 5: That's not the real world.

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Speaker 4: You've got to be adaptable, flexible and ready to switch

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Speaker 4: regardless of what happens to you. And I mean the

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Speaker 4: Kuweez are still made to my mind, they're just a benchmark,

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Speaker 4: and they're smart enough to know that that they'll have

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Speaker 4: three planes up this sleep and they'll have one in play,

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Speaker 4: and I'll have two ready to go no matter what happens,

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Speaker 4: so that they're firing in Rugby World Cup.

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Speaker 2: Well, all Blacks fans listening across our country, we'll certainly

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Speaker 2: hope that you're right.

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Speaker 5: Wayne.

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Speaker 2: Terrific insight is always from you on a fascinating topic.

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Speaker 5: Mate.

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Speaker 2: Let's stay in touch, look forward to catching up again soon.

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Speaker 5: Always a pleasure, my friend.

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Speaker 2: Thank you mate. That is Wayne Goldsmith WG coaching dot

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Speaker 2: com incidentally is his website, just a plethora of amazing

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Speaker 2: insight and information on there. Wayne always brings good insight.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talk ZB weekends from midday or follow the

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