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Speaker 1: Hilda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast.

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Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald.

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Speaker 2: School rugby has been under the microscope for years now

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Speaker 2: after controversies over poaching between schools and the live broadcast

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Speaker 2: of games. Those tensions have flared up again, with secondary

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Speaker 2: schools pushing back against NZED Rugby's plans for an under

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Speaker 2: eighteen team to take on Australia. It's not the only

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Speaker 2: sporting code to face pushback though. This week our young

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Speaker 2: rowers take to the waters for the.

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Speaker 1: Marty cart b Regatta and.

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Speaker 2: For the first time year, fourteen students are barred from

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Speaker 2: taking part. It all adds to an ongoing debate about

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Speaker 2: how much focus we should be putting on teenage athletes

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Speaker 2: while still allowing the likes of record breaking runner Sam Ruth.

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Speaker 1: Later on the Front.

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Speaker 2: Page, we'll talk to AUT Associate professor and co director

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Speaker 2: of AUT's Sports Performance Research Institute and z Simon Wallace.

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Speaker 1: But first we speak to.

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Speaker 2: Nzet Herald journalist Gregor Paul about his latest reporting into

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Speaker 2: school sports. Gregor The Herald reported recently about tensions between

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Speaker 2: schools and New Zealand Rugby about plans to create an

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Speaker 2: under eighteen's team. Now the schools feel this would not

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Speaker 2: only detract from the boys' education, but from the existing

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Speaker 2: secondary school teams.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of zetas wish here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got to see this problem and there's a

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Speaker 3: problem from both sides. That the schools have run their

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Speaker 3: own program if you like, forever and the pinnacle of

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Speaker 3: first fifteen rugby for the last forty five years has

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Speaker 3: been a New Zealand secondary schools team.

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Speaker 4: Now New Zealand Rugby, it's not that they.

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Speaker 3: Don't like that idea, but they want to have some

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Speaker 3: kind of control and influence on kids of that age

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Speaker 3: because the way things are playing out at the moment,

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Speaker 3: if you're an elite player at that age group, you're

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Speaker 3: not that far away from becoming a professional, and you're

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Speaker 3: not even that far away in some cases of becoming

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Speaker 3: an All Black. For some kids, it's a really short

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Speaker 3: step from school to super rugby into the Old Blacks.

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Speaker 3: So New Zealand Rugby want to have greater influence. They

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Speaker 3: want to call that a pathway, they want to call

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Speaker 3: that a high performance team, and hence they want to

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Speaker 3: take ownership of what I suppose and their argument for

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Speaker 3: doing it is that they feel that there are kids

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Speaker 3: who are under eighteen. They say about thirty percent of

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Speaker 3: the kids that got picked in their various teams last

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Speaker 3: year who weren't actually at school, or they were at

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Speaker 3: schools where they didn't have a first fifteen program and

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Speaker 3: they were therefore forced to play for clubs. So if

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Speaker 3: you open, if you change the New Zealand secondary schools

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Speaker 3: into an under eighteen team, it becomes more inclusive and

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Speaker 3: you can have more kids avail to play in it.

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Speaker 3: But the schools will be arguing, look, this is a

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Speaker 3: this is a system that's not broken. Why are we

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Speaker 3: trying to fix it?

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Speaker 2: Do you reckon the school's defiance is actually about the boys' education?

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Speaker 2: Or do the schools get some kind of incentive by

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Speaker 2: having a good team that wins all the time?

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Speaker 1: Or am I just being a negative Nancy?

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Speaker 3: I know you're not being a negative Nancy. Mean, look,

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Speaker 3: I think that there's a general level here school principles.

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Speaker 3: I didn't spend a lot of time around my school principle, thankfully,

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Speaker 3: but they tend to be you know, they've got a

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Speaker 3: view about how they want things. They've controlled things, they

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Speaker 3: want things to be on their watch. It's on a

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Speaker 3: sort of broadbrush level. They don't like the idea of

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Speaker 3: outside interference of a third party i e.

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Speaker 4: In New Zealand Rugby having control over their kids. So

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Speaker 4: that's part of the issue. Is it about their education?

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a legitimate concern that if you give a

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Speaker 3: third party the right to schedule training, camps, trials, when

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Speaker 3: matches get played at that level, you could easily have

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Speaker 3: massive interfere apearance in your academic schedule because they won't

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Speaker 3: be aligned at that point. And you know, if New

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Speaker 3: Zealand Rugby decided they want to have a camp in September,

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Speaker 3: then you know kids are going to be asking can

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Speaker 3: we leave school? Can we come out of school at

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Speaker 3: a time where they really do need to be in

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Speaker 3: school for their academic cycle, which you know that's kind

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Speaker 3: of getting close to exam time. So there is a

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Speaker 3: legitimate concern around giving control of scheduling to another body

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Speaker 3: because schools argue that they, you know, they are the

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Speaker 3: best institution to provide a holistic and conjoined education if

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Speaker 3: you like. Where they can build Rugby around academics, they

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Speaker 3: can build it around other commitments without everything you know, clashing,

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I do think they're concern on that front

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Speaker 3: as genuine.

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Speaker 2: How many of these kids would actually go on to

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Speaker 2: have successful careers in rugby and become an all black

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Speaker 2: and stuff. Because if you take them, the ones that

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Speaker 2: are really good in school, ship them off to these

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Speaker 2: kind of camps and they don't succeed in becoming a

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Speaker 2: rugby star and their education is laxed, then that puts

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Speaker 2: a huge amount of pressure on them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, right, Look, tiny, tiny, one percent,

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Speaker 3: I would imagine I don't actually know the numbers, but

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Speaker 3: people sort of quote less than one percent. You know,

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Speaker 3: what of these kids will will succeed in becoming full

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Speaker 3: time professional rugby players for a duration that they could

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Speaker 3: say that they made a living out of it.

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Speaker 4: Very hard to do.

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Speaker 3: So the schools, I think are right because if you

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Speaker 3: create an under eighteen team and start talking about pathways,

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Speaker 3: training camps, all this kind of stuff, it starts to

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Speaker 3: feel that you're professionalizing the system in the minds of

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Speaker 3: the players, and the schools are arguing, well, if we

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Speaker 3: just have a New Zealand Secondary schools team at the

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Speaker 3: pinnacle and at the end of the year, the best

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Speaker 3: twenty kids are picked and you get to go to Australia.

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Speaker 3: It's almost like a prize rather than your a career

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Speaker 3: and centive. It's a hey, your prize is you played

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Speaker 3: really well on our team. Someone else thought that you

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Speaker 3: were that good that you'll play in a schools team.

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Speaker 3: So you're kind of de intensifying. You're not glamorizing it

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Speaker 3: to the same extent. You're not saying if you make

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Speaker 3: this team, you know you're now in a system where

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Speaker 3: we're pushing you through with a view that you could

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Speaker 3: become a professional rugby player. You're just being rewarded for

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Speaker 3: having played quite well and a lot of the kids

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Speaker 3: are more comfortable with that environment because we do.

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Speaker 4: I feel I would rather start.

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Speaker 3: I would like to see holistic kids coming out of

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Speaker 3: school so that you could play for a New Zealand

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Speaker 3: secondary schools team.

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Speaker 4: Because you're really good at rugby.

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Speaker 3: But your plan at that point is still you know

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Speaker 3: you've done well academically, you're off to go to university

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Speaker 3: or you're involved in a trade and you're thinking along

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Speaker 3: those lines rather than I've made the New Zealand under

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Speaker 3: eighteen team. I'm now thinking I could push forward and

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Speaker 3: try and be a professional rugby player. The nuance is

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Speaker 3: quite significant when you think about it in those terms.

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Speaker 5: I mean, when I was a student, it was for

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Speaker 5: kind of a pretty common knowledge that the big school

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Speaker 5: has always got the best players. The school I went

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Speaker 5: to was far from a top sporting school or academic school,

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Speaker 5: so we didn't have the best team. Nobody was being

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Speaker 5: enticed to come and play for our school, that's for sure.

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Speaker 5: Any players we had were guys that were kind of

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Speaker 5: homegrowing and just went through the ranks. And that's kind

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Speaker 5: of what some of the schools who are complaining about

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Speaker 5: this practice are saying, Like, one of the principals of

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Speaker 5: one of the schools that has lost the player to

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Speaker 5: Saint Kens has seen you and our teachers worked hard

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Speaker 5: on him one of the students for three years academically

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Speaker 5: and he's done really well. And now Saint Kent's are

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Speaker 5: reaping the benefits not only from the academic staff but

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Speaker 5: also sporting wise.

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Speaker 2: And this comes only a few years after some major

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Speaker 2: scandals in schoolboy rugby. Hey, firstly, we've had several instances

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Speaker 2: of tensions over alleged poaching of students to play for

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Speaker 2: a school rugby team, starting in late twenty eighteen, when

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Speaker 2: I think Saint Kent's wasn't it got boycotted from the

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Speaker 2: competition over its tactics.

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Speaker 1: Then in twenty twenty, Sky.

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Speaker 2: Sports broadcast plans of school games ran into issues with

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Speaker 2: Auckland and they eventually pulled the pin. Now, why are

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Speaker 2: we so passionate about teenagers playing rugby?

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Speaker 1: What does a win mean for school?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 3: When you say why are we, I mean push back

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Speaker 3: on the question a little bit and say who's the Wii?

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Speaker 3: Because as a parent to three kids, you know, I

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Speaker 3: fully endorse sport as something that my kids have all done.

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Speaker 4: They've all enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: But I couldn't care less what level they perform at.

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Speaker 3: I don't care whether they win or lose. I just

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Speaker 3: care that they enjoy it. And I suspect that there

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Speaker 3: are a massive mix of views among parental communities around.

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Speaker 3: You know how many parents would agree with me on that?

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Speaker 3: How many parents think, actually, I want my kid to win,

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Speaker 3: I want my kid to play for the top team.

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Speaker 3: I want my kid to be coached almost professionally. Because

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Speaker 3: your question is where does the passion come from and

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Speaker 3: what does passion mean? I suppose because everyone's got a

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Speaker 3: different view about what role sports should play, whether it's

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Speaker 3: just for participation, to round that in education, is it

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Speaker 3: to in is that a career prospect? And I think

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Speaker 3: all of these things aren't particularly well managed through the

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Speaker 3: school system because schools come under that kind of such

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Speaker 3: a variety of pressures from different parental expectation that they

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Speaker 3: don't quite know how to manage it. And probably what

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Speaker 3: we've seen is that we've aired towards allowing those that

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Speaker 3: want professionalization of sport, that want their kid to be

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Speaker 3: given every opportunity to go on and play at the

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Speaker 3: highest level. I think we've carried out to that parental

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Speaker 3: force and that's where you see the passion coming from.

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Speaker 3: Hence we got televised drugby hence we had poaching, because

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Speaker 3: schools feel that pressure, particularly private schools who use it

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Speaker 3: as an enticement tool. They think success on the sports

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Speaker 3: field relates to people wanting to pay money to come

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Speaker 3: to that school because their kid might get that opportunity that,

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Speaker 3: you know, to play at the highest level. So I

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Speaker 3: really think we've got a multitude of problems that swirl

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Speaker 3: around school sport and it all relates to different expectations,

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Speaker 3: and schools probably got out of control in the sense

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Speaker 3: that they bowed to the pushy parent, if you like,

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Speaker 3: and maybe what we've seen in the last two three

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Speaker 3: four years of schools regaining a bit of control and

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Speaker 3: pushing back against the pushy parents.

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Speaker 1: Heading to the water.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Earlier this year, schools involved in the rowing competition voted

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly to ban year fourteen players from taking part in

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Speaker 2: the Marty cap. These were players who should have graduated

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Speaker 2: high school already, but remained enrolled for a few more

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Speaker 2: months so they can keep competing. Now, are you surprised

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Speaker 2: it took this long to ban this practice.

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Speaker 3: Well, probably not, because I think it's one of those

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Speaker 3: things that crept up through a legitimate pathway that I

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Speaker 3: think back in time there was some legitimacy to some

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Speaker 3: academic kids coming back for a short period because I

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Speaker 3: think back then there were exams potentially all overseas, exams

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Speaker 3: that they were doing that they needed to come back

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Speaker 3: and do that enhanced their ability to go to an

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Speaker 3: overseas university, and hey, guess what, while you're here, legitimately,

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Speaker 3: you know, you might as well up in the boat

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Speaker 3: and row or whatever was happening. So I think there

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Speaker 3: was a sort of legitimate start to all this, but

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Speaker 3: what always happens in schools is that that system, over

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Speaker 3: time gets abused, and certainly in rugby, there were guys

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Speaker 3: coming back to school who had done particularly well academically

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Speaker 3: in year thirteen, but they also hadn't fulfilled ambition, you know,

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Speaker 3: to make a representative team, or they felt that if

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Speaker 3: they came back for a year fourteen, you know, they

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Speaker 3: might get picked up on a professional contract or a

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Speaker 3: pathway or whatever they were thinking. And over time the

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Speaker 3: system kind of got out of control a little bit

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Speaker 3: and people lost track of just how many year fourteen

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Speaker 3: kids were coming in to play sport. So it's probably

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Speaker 3: just one of those gradual creeps that happened, and then

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Speaker 3: eventually I think the rowing probably became the flashpoint where

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Speaker 3: principles realized, actually, there's actually quite a lot of kids

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Speaker 3: because of the timing of the Mardi Kappas suspect because

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Speaker 3: early in term one, so if you have year fourteen kids,

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Speaker 3: they can come back for one term.

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Speaker 4: And I think they just got out of control.

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Speaker 3: They realized how many kids were doing it, and now

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Speaker 3: they've taken a stance and say, nop, this is getting

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Speaker 3: this is getting silly. So look, it doesn't surprise me

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Speaker 3: it took that long because you've got to have a

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Speaker 3: bit of an overview, and it's sometimes hard to see

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Speaker 3: when you're in the system.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Gregor.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: In a country where some sports reigned supreme, there's a

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Speaker 2: huge focus on prepping and priming our next generation of stars.

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Speaker 2: Co director of AUT's Sports Performance Research Institute and said

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Speaker 2: Simon Wallace joins us now to talk about the pressure

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Speaker 2: we put on our teenage athletes. Simon, you've done research

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Speaker 2: into this area. What can you tell us about the

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Speaker 2: health impacts on teens that are caught up in those

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Speaker 2: high profile sports like this.

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Speaker 6: It's not so much the impact, it's the potential impact

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Speaker 6: that the increasingly pressurized environment which we've seen over a

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Speaker 6: number of years, which is sort of accelerating at the moment,

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Speaker 6: consequently leads to potential impacts on young people participating in sports,

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Speaker 6: and those can be play out in religion to physical

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Speaker 6: and physiological impacts, mental health impacts, and psychological The evidence

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Speaker 6: sort of shows that if there's a supportive environment in

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Speaker 6: place for young people as they entered these environments, a

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Speaker 6: lot of those can be mitigated against. So it's really

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Speaker 6: about the support networks that are in place to help

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Speaker 6: young people navigate these pressures, which ultimately decide if these

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Speaker 6: impacts are going to play out.

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Speaker 7: In any way.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what does high athlete identity mean?

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Speaker 6: High the identity is an area throughout the last decades

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Speaker 6: for youth in particular, is problematic, as if you define

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Speaker 6: your character in relation to your ability. Let's say in

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Speaker 6: New Zealand, same school verse fifteen rugby player, they just

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Speaker 6: associated with that. With rugby sort of being perceived traditionally

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Speaker 6: as our national sport, you could have your identity wrapped

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Speaker 6: up with being that rugby player. That can be challenging

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Speaker 6: in many ways because if you get injured and for example,

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Speaker 6: and your career ends, or if you get injured and

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Speaker 6: you miss the season, if your sense of self worth

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Speaker 6: and self esteem is so wrapped up in your athletic prowess,

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Speaker 6: then that can have an impact on other aspects of

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Speaker 6: your life. And if that's taken away, that can be

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Speaker 6: you know, sort of devastating effects.

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Speaker 2: It's quite a common trope in those teen dramas, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: When there's a high school jock or something and he

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Speaker 2: gets a knee injury and he thinks the world's going

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Speaker 2: to end?

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Speaker 1: Is it that kind of thing?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And if you think about sort of you know,

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Speaker 6: in the New Zealand situation like the rugby league, so

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Speaker 6: a lot a lot of young people go over to

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Speaker 6: the NRL sixteen seventeen, eighteen years of age. There's a

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Speaker 6: lot invested in that that might be sort of wanting

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Speaker 6: to make the family proud, that obviously want to establish

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Speaker 6: themselves a professional career if other things have gone by

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Speaker 6: the by, So if they're not focusing on their education

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Speaker 6: and sort of upskilling, so if sport doesn't work out

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Speaker 6: for them, you know, that can be really problematic. So

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Speaker 6: we've seen that over the years with people going into

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Speaker 6: pursue high performance sport careers and then that's been taken

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Speaker 6: away for whatever is lid and make the cut based

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Speaker 6: on sort of talent development or they got injured and

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Speaker 6: that didn't work out, or they got homesick and need

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Speaker 6: to come home. So if everything is wrapped up and

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Speaker 6: you know, I'm an athlete as opposed to I'm a

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Speaker 6: seventeen year old boy or a girl who happened to

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Speaker 6: be good at sport, then that gets really problematic.

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Speaker 2: So it would be important to have that support network

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Speaker 2: around you.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 6: And social media has magnified everything that we experienced, well,

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Speaker 6: when I experienced when I was younger. You know, if

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Speaker 6: you were going through those adolescent years, they're tough enough anyway,

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Speaker 6: but now with a constant spotlight on you through social

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Speaker 6: media and self image and status and all.

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Speaker 7: Of that, there's no real hiding from it.

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Speaker 6: You can't get so it's almost like a constant pressure

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Speaker 6: that you can't get away from. So learning strategies to

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Speaker 6: deal with that and having the supported networks around becomes

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Speaker 6: really really important.

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Speaker 8: Before I started looking up statistics, I made a phone

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Speaker 8: call to the guy in my town who's the president

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Speaker 8: of the local Little League association. He told me that

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Speaker 8: the Little League Association has been in existence since nineteen

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Speaker 8: fifty nine. Now, we couldn't come up with a statistically

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Speaker 8: credible estimation of the number of children who had played

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Speaker 8: in the league over all of those years, so for

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Speaker 8: the sake of argument, let's just say it was a lot.

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Speaker 8: They told me that in their almost sixty years of existence,

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Speaker 8: the number of children that had gone through their program

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Speaker 8: that he knew of that ended up playing Major League

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Speaker 8: Baseball was two.

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Speaker 2: I would all like to think that everyone can flourish

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Speaker 2: and succeed, but being really stick here, only a handful

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Speaker 2: of kids playing in their chosen sport today are actually

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Speaker 2: going to make it professionally, aren't they. So what's the

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Speaker 2: point of putting so much pressure on these teenagers?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I think, Look, I love and it's great to see

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Speaker 6: people excel and do their best at it. But we

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Speaker 6: know the evidence shows in the United States with the

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Speaker 6: NFL and.

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Speaker 7: The Premier league football academies.

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Speaker 6: You know, it's something like, you know, these young people

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Speaker 6: aget signed up really at really young ages for these

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Speaker 6: premier league academies, and yeah, very few. We know from

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Speaker 6: the evidence that very few actually make it through to

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Speaker 6: professional ranks.

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Speaker 7: So if you take the.

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Speaker 6: Premier league football academies in the UK and you look

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Speaker 6: at the NFL, the amount of athletes who are signed

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Speaker 6: quite young and actually go on to play in the

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Speaker 6: professional game, I think it's about one to two percent

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Speaker 6: of young people who actually are signed up with football

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Speaker 6: academies in the UK.

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Speaker 7: So very few people actually do make it through. You'd

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Speaker 7: have to ask the.

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Speaker 6: Question, why so much pressure and why so much investment

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Speaker 6: so young, and it sort of closing the door on

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Speaker 6: late developers. As youth develop at different stages, some develop

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Speaker 6: earlier than others, and that those late developers possibly not

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Speaker 6: selected early on because of their haven't developed physically as

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Speaker 6: fast as their peers. Possibly we're losing them from sport

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Speaker 6: as well. So it's a double wammy. The ones who

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Speaker 6: are in the system the majority don't make it, and

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Speaker 6: it closes the door on other people from actually entering

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Speaker 6: into the system.

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Speaker 2: So I saw last week fifteen year old runner Sam

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Speaker 2: Ruth became the youngest person to ever run a sub

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Speaker 2: four minute mile. Now, this is obviously a major achievement

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Speaker 2: for him personally, but for the country as well. Where

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Speaker 2: do we strike that balance between supporting clear superstars like

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Speaker 2: Sam but not thrusting them into the spotlight so much

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Speaker 2: that it could negatively impact on them.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I've been following that.

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Speaker 6: You know, that's an incredible performance from somebody who are

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Speaker 6: young and attract significant media attention.

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Speaker 7: From Olympics point of view, the International Olympic.

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Speaker 6: Committee commissioned about twenty five leading experts in youth development

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Speaker 6: from across the world, so scientists, physiologists, people with experiencing

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Speaker 6: coaching youth development sports psychologists.

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Speaker 7: They came up with a consensus.

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Speaker 6: Statement on what age is the right age when young

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Speaker 6: people should be going to the Olympics, and they couldn't

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Speaker 6: agree on an age. So what they did do was

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Speaker 6: identify all the challenges and barriers, some of them we've

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Speaker 6: talked about that do impact on young people, and they

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Speaker 6: came up with recommendations that would support somebody like Sam

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Speaker 6: for example, be a classic example of that. But it's

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Speaker 6: having the right people around them who understand the appropriate

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Speaker 6: training load for people going through the adolescence and they'll

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Speaker 6: go through various stages of growth spurts. We know that

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Speaker 6: during adolescence the risk of injury is much higher than

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Speaker 6: for other age groups. So it's having that knowledge around

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Speaker 6: them from the trainers and the people working with them

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Speaker 6: physically to understand what an appropriate training load is. Then

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Speaker 6: you also need some supportive parenting around them to help

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Speaker 6: guide them through the pressures that come with that. You know,

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Speaker 6: the school environment and everybody involved with them around them

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Speaker 6: needs to be providing a lot of support. Now, now

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Speaker 6: what I read about Sam, I don't know Sam. It

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Speaker 6: seems he doesn't have a very supportive environment around him

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Speaker 6: and that's great, but you know, not athlete is going

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Speaker 6: to have that, So yeah, there is a lot of

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Speaker 6: pressure on it and it needs to be. You just

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Speaker 6: need to support these people with a network of people

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Speaker 6: around them. That's a sports organizations, the cultures, xos, physiologists,

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Speaker 6: the nutritionists and that rock around service which helps them

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Speaker 6: navigate this time because he really is in the spotlight right.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Simon.

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Speaker 7: No problem, it's pleasure. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at NZ Herald, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page

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Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is

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Speaker 2: also a sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look

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Speaker 2: behind the headlines.