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Speaker 1: Back to the Labor Party conference. Who was the tax talk?

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Speaker 1: But they are keeping on the QT for an Now

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Speaker 1: what gond announced was the Duneedan hospital back. As for

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Speaker 1: the original premise, the tech tobacco tax break for the

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Speaker 1: heated product is gone. Orcas is off. Labor leader Chris

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Speaker 1: Hopkins with This Morning, Good morning, I was saying earlier

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Speaker 1: on this morning, best thing you did was pick the

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Speaker 1: Isaac Theater. How good's that?

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Speaker 2: It's an amazing venue And actually when you realize that

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Speaker 2: it was mostly rebuilt, so the bit that's supposed to

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Speaker 2: look old is actually the newest part of the theater.

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Speaker 2: And then the stage is out the back, which you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of they're the bit that survived the earthquake. So

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Speaker 2: exactly amazing venue.

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Speaker 1: And as a home handyman, you would have appreciated the workmanship.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciated the workmanship I was. I was most

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Speaker 2: impressed with the way they'd managed to preserve, you know,

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Speaker 2: the historic sort of plaster work and stuff, or at

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Speaker 2: least replicate and restore it. Incredible building.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did you read Peter Dunn's article over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: No, I haven't seen that one.

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Speaker 1: He says the government's going pretty well and can with

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Speaker 1: a lot of governments around the world, they're actually performing

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Speaker 1: quite well. You wouldn't want to hear that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't agree with that obviously. I mean I

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Speaker 2: think that there, you know, overall, our economy is getting

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Speaker 2: worse rather than getting better, and I think that some

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Speaker 2: of the actions that they're taking and contributing to that.

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Speaker 2: So if you look at the twelve thousand odds fewer

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Speaker 2: people who are employed in building and construction at the

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Speaker 2: moment compared to this time last year, I think the

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Speaker 2: decisions of this government to stop a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: building projects like statehouse building projects and school upgrades and

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Speaker 2: so on, has actually contributed to that rather than made

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Speaker 2: it better.

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Speaker 1: And at no point do you accept that the six

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Speaker 1: years of your ineptitude not yours specifically, you're only responsible

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Speaker 1: for a small part of that ineptitude, but no part

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Speaker 1: of that ineptitude is responsible for where we sit now,

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Speaker 1: and it takes more than a year to put it right.

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Speaker 2: I think there's no question that the global response to

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Speaker 2: the global pandemic, including a New Zealand, contributed to a

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Speaker 2: number of the things that subsequently happened, including this spot

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Speaker 2: and inflation. Now a lot of that actually in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand was driven by decisions that were taken independently by

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Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank. But overall, the response to COVID, including

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Speaker 2: things like wage subsidies and so on, had a stimulus

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Speaker 2: effect which then led to inflation. So you know, New

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Speaker 2: Zealand wasn't alone in that, but decisions that we took

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Speaker 2: as a government did contribute to that. I think the alternative, however,

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Speaker 2: was to see a lot of people losing their jobs,

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Speaker 2: which also wasn't a great alternative either.

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Speaker 1: And you won't concede that of all the countries in

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Speaker 1: the world, no one's had three recessions and two years

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Speaker 1: like we have, and that's a direct outworking of your

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Speaker 1: government and adrenal.

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Speaker 2: Well, the decisions that this government have taken have contributed

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Speaker 2: to the economic situation that we're into the moment. I

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Speaker 2: mean they've been in government for a year now. I

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Speaker 2: know they want to including through a whole budget cycle

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Speaker 2: another one to continue to blame the previous government for

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Speaker 2: everything that's been happening, but actually they need to start

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Speaker 2: accepting responsibility for the decisions that they have taken. They

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Speaker 2: are the government. They've been in government for every year.

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Speaker 1: Even though you and government spent your full six years

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Speaker 1: blaming the previous government, so you had two full so

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Speaker 1: you didn't take your own advice.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's true. I mean I think we we would

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Speaker 2: say that some of the long term decisions that previous

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Speaker 2: governments took, such as not investing in schools and hospitals

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Speaker 2: and so on, had a long legacy effect, and then

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Speaker 2: includes decisions of the previous government. I think we were

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Speaker 2: well and truly in the position where we were accepting

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Speaker 2: responsibility for the current economic situation that the country was

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Speaker 2: in when we were in government the parts that we controlled.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that the current government say, now, oh, there's

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of international factors that are contributing to

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's economy being in the position that it's in,

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Speaker 2: when just a year ago before the election they were saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's all labor's fault and none of us is to

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Speaker 2: do with international factors. Well, I don't think things have

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Speaker 2: changed that much in the last year to be Frank.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Aucus, have you seen something specific or is this

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Speaker 1: an ideological decision of yours over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: Well, at principal, Mike, I think you know UCUS ultimately

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Speaker 2: is a nuclear submarine packed if you look at Pillar

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Speaker 2: two of Aucus, it's not something that we think is

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Speaker 2: going to be in New Zealand's best interests to be

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Speaker 2: involved with.

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Speaker 1: You have you though, actually specifically looked at Pilartoo.

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Speaker 2: Well, only the details that are publicly available, and you know,

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Speaker 2: ultimately we've made the decision that New Zealand's best interests

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Speaker 2: will be best be served through our existing international arrangements,

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Speaker 2: including things like the five country partnership that we have,

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Speaker 2: and in any access to things like new technology should

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Speaker 2: come through that avenue, not through the Orchest arrangement.

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Speaker 1: That's fine. I'm just working to see it was under

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Speaker 1: your government that it started and it's been sort of

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Speaker 1: trapped ever since, and I can't work out whether anything

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Speaker 1: actually materially has changed, or whether you've just decided you

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Speaker 1: don't like it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think Aucast if you look at the way

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Speaker 2: it's perceived internationally, including in our region, it's perceived as

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Speaker 2: part of the polarization of geopolitics in our region, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's something that's going to be in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's best interests to be actively participating in. I

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Speaker 2: think we should continue to have good, you know, strategic

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Speaker 2: relationships with the US, the UK and Australia, but we've

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Speaker 2: also got to recognize we've got other partnerships in the

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Speaker 2: in the region and they are not happy with ucas well.

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Speaker 2: China is one of them. But our specific nations, you know,

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Speaker 2: partners are not particularly comfortable with ORCUS either, And I

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Speaker 2: think we have to be eyes wide open to that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Dunedin Hospital, to what extent will you build it

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Speaker 1: no matter what the bill.

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Speaker 2: We said that we'll build it to the specification that

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Speaker 2: we agreed to at the last election, no matter what

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Speaker 2: the last election. Well, I mean bearing in mind that

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Speaker 2: the previous that the current government before the election was

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Speaker 2: saying they were going to build a hospital is even

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Speaker 2: bigger than the one that we were courting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but forget that. This is your promise that, at

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Speaker 1: no matter what cost you were, whatever it was going

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Speaker 1: to be, specification wise, you will pay that bill.

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Speaker 2: We will we will build a hospital to the respect

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Speaker 2: that we had agreed to before the last election.

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Speaker 1: That's okay, currently sitting in over three billion. Where's that

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Speaker 1: money coming from?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's not that's just not true, Mike, because that

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Speaker 2: includes a whole lot of things that went in the specification,

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Speaker 2: including a big car parking bill that was never part

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Speaker 2: of the original specify.

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Speaker 1: So you think it's still one point nine.

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Speaker 2: But they've loaded in things like radiology, which was actually

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Speaker 2: excluded because that's likely to be built by a private sector.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's fine, but you are saying under your specifications

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Speaker 1: you will build it. If the bills above one point nine,

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Speaker 1: you will pay for it. Where's the money come from?

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Speaker 2: Well, the multi year capital allowance that the government has

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Speaker 2: every year to spend.

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Speaker 1: And so that's all because we're back, we don't have

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Speaker 1: any money.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you're building new assets, so you borrow more

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Speaker 2: reasonable to borrow. It's not unreasonable to borrow for assets

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Speaker 2: that are going to have a forty to fifty plus

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Speaker 2: year lifespan and then pay them off over the lifespan

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Speaker 2: of those assets. That's actually quite prudent piscal management.

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Speaker 1: And you would have more money, of course coming in

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Speaker 1: because of the CGT.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have more money coming in among other things,

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Speaker 2: because we're not going to give a text break, a

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Speaker 2: two hundred million dollar text break to tobacco companies, which

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Speaker 2: this current government have agreed to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but the two hundred is nothing. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: pocket change in the cost of a hospital, and that's fine.

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Speaker 1: But the CGT, how much do you reckon that would

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Speaker 1: bring in?

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Speaker 2: Well, we haven't we haven't agreed to a CGT. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's one of the options on the table. We've set

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Speaker 2: out our text policy. Yes, closer to the next election.

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Speaker 1: But if you did have a CGT, how much would

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Speaker 1: that be bringing in?

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Speaker 2: Roughly, what depends on the decisions you make about Watson's

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Speaker 2: scope and what's out of scope. So there's still a

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Speaker 2: lot of water to flow under the bridge before we've

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Speaker 2: agreed a policy on that.

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Speaker 1: Do you reckon? Out of the weekend, you're closer to

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Speaker 1: a CGT than you were before it.

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Speaker 2: I think we're certainly closer to tax reform, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think that's going to be a good thing if

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Speaker 2: you look at it. You know, when we started talking

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Speaker 2: about this fifty years ago as the Labor Party, we

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Speaker 2: were the only people talking about it. Now everybody's saying, actually,

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Speaker 2: U Zealand's tax system needs reform, So you know, I

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Speaker 2: think and I think that's a good thing. I think

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Speaker 2: it's good that people are talking about it, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think we are closer to seeing public appetite in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand for reform of our TEX system.

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Speaker 1: All right, good to talk to your Prosipkins Labor Party leader.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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