Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A major
Speaker 2: blaze at an Auckland supermarket this week has once again
Speaker 2: highlighted the incredible work of our firefighters.
Speaker 1: More than twenty.
Speaker 2: Appliances and over eighty firefighters spend hours containing the fire
Speaker 2: at the Victoria Park New World in scenes that captivated
Speaker 2: audiences across the country. It's not the first major fire
Speaker 2: the city has seen this year either, and it's unlikely
Speaker 2: to be the last. So what's it like on the
Speaker 2: frontline of these fires? And is our current fleet of
Speaker 2: firefighting appliances up for the job? Today on the Front Page,
Speaker 2: we're joined by New Zealand Professional Firefighters Union Auckland President
Speaker 2: Terry Bird and Auckland local Representative Josh Nichols to get.
Speaker 1: Into what it's really like for our firefighters.
Speaker 2: So, Terry, can you give us an insight into what
Speaker 2: goes into containing a fire like what we saw at
Speaker 2: Victoria Park this week.
Speaker 3: We have a set of predetermined responses, so automatically we
Speaker 3: respond to appliances to an incident. The officers in charge
Speaker 3: responding to the QUR can add additional resources and appliances
Speaker 3: if they think that there is a need, and that
Speaker 3: typically happens, and when they get to the fire, they
Speaker 3: size up the situation and consider adding more resources and
Speaker 3: then attack the fire using the tools that they have.
Speaker 2: Josh, I guess as civilians we kind of see the
Speaker 2: fire from the outside, see the plumes of smoke for Instagram, etc.
Speaker 2: But I imagine on the ground it must be quite
Speaker 2: taxing work.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think that's a really brittent point
Speaker 4: that you bring up, and I think that's something that
Speaker 4: both me and Terry would like to share that we
Speaker 4: should have gone jil members. You know, right through there's
Speaker 4: there's a there's a big group of people here that
Speaker 4: are involved in the response to one of these fires,
Speaker 4: you know, and it starts with our fire com staff
Speaker 4: in the first instance. You know, they're the people that
Speaker 4: mobilize and dispatch their appliances or the crews to go
Speaker 4: up and respond to the call. And then you know
Speaker 4: the members that are out there on the internet ground.
Speaker 4: You know, these are extremely challenging and arduous conditions and
Speaker 4: you know, these these men and one and they give
Speaker 4: it everything. You know, they come to work. I guess with,
Speaker 4: you know, with a pride, a drive and a high
Speaker 4: level of professionalism to sort of save savable life and
Speaker 4: save buildings. You know, for people of the New Zealand
Speaker 4: communities and all are very prudent. Point is the fact
Speaker 4: that it's it's not effort that's letting us down. It's
Speaker 4: it's the equipment, strategies and support.
Speaker 5: I saw a hell a lot of smoke coming out
Speaker 5: of the roof of the building at a New World
Speaker 5: Victoria Park. We walked in there to do some work
Speaker 5: on a supplier and wellin fifteen minutes have been inside.
Speaker 5: I experienced the fire agil maybe in thisitry for so
Speaker 5: long I just thought it was a drill, but it
Speaker 5: was an actual, real fire alarm and within minutes there
Speaker 5: was smoke valuing out.
Speaker 2: Every week, seeing how many appliances and firefighters responded to
Speaker 2: that fire in Auckland this week. If you were to
Speaker 2: live out in Botany or Pocacoa or somewhere, were you
Speaker 2: ever at risk of not having someone show up at
Speaker 2: your door?
Speaker 1: What are the staff challenges here?
Speaker 3: It's a real challenge for an emergency organization to have
Speaker 3: enough resources to deal with an immediate emergency and then
Speaker 3: to have enough resources to deal with a second or
Speaker 3: potentially third or more. And so there's always been a
Speaker 3: way of balancing that, and we have what we call
Speaker 3: service delivery guidelines, and that we try to make sure
Speaker 3: finds tries to make sure that there is enough resources
Speaker 3: to always be able to meet those guidelines. And those
Speaker 3: guidelines are about how long it takes appliances and crews
Speaker 3: to arrive at any structured fire and probably should include
Speaker 3: any emergency. And that's how they determine. What's happened over
Speaker 3: time is that the resources have become more stretched. It's
Speaker 3: taking us longer to get to calls because of traffic
Speaker 3: congestion and traffic calming devices. We are not meeting those times.
Speaker 3: So it is becoming normal for a fire appliance to
Speaker 3: take longer to get to an emergency.
Speaker 2: And I can imagine, Josh, that every minute and every
Speaker 2: moment counts. So how frustrating is it that there are
Speaker 2: those delays.
Speaker 4: It's really frustrating. And I think, you know, we need
Speaker 4: to understand that a fire doubles and size every thirty seconds.
Speaker 4: You know, someone you have put that into perspective. You know,
Speaker 4: times is of the essence, right, you know, when we're
Speaker 4: having appalled specialist appliances from our fourth largest city into
Speaker 4: our largest city, you know at a two to three
Speaker 4: hour response time, you can kind of see where we
Speaker 4: start to face some of their complexities and then the
Speaker 4: challenges that are then on laid to oc cruise on
Speaker 4: the insidaground officers that are in charge and have to
Speaker 4: make those technical command decisions, you know, with limited tools
Speaker 4: on the toolbox, so to speak.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just seems like a burden that they really
Speaker 2: don't or shouldn't have to deal with in terms of
Speaker 2: the appliances that we're talking about. I mean, am I
Speaker 2: right to say Terry that Auckland has quite an aging fleet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a nationwide problem that there hasn't been an
Speaker 3: injection of new appliances into the large centers for some time,
Speaker 3: and FENS does face some challenges around that, and it
Speaker 3: is doing a procurement at the moment to replace some
Speaker 3: of the aging aerials, as it is with some of
Speaker 3: our standard fire appliances. I think if we are just
Speaker 3: to highlight, if you go back to the large fire
Speaker 3: we had at the International Convention Center in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 3: one of the recommendations out of that review was that
Speaker 3: FAMES should develop a strategy on aerial appliances. It should
Speaker 3: investigate what kinds we need, how many, and where they
Speaker 3: should be. And so six years later there is a
Speaker 3: draft of that document. I've not seen the draft, but
Speaker 3: I'm going to speculate that it suggests or recommends that
Speaker 3: we should increase our stock of verial appliances and we
Speaker 3: should refresh them more often so that they don't get
Speaker 3: to an old, unreliable age. I would then go, well,
Speaker 3: why hasn't FENS done that if that's what their review
Speaker 3: says that they should do. And now I'm speculating here
Speaker 3: because I don't actually know what the review says. And
Speaker 3: I'll speculate again. Our organization finds has been told to
Speaker 3: save sixty million dollars. It hasn't been told to do
Speaker 3: that because there has been some robust review of how
Speaker 3: we performed. I don't believe anyone has looked at us
Speaker 3: and said, you know, we can still be an effect
Speaker 3: of service if we take this much money off. It's
Speaker 3: been arbitrarily opposed on us by the government and now
Speaker 3: by an emergency I'm speculating again knows that it needs
Speaker 3: to invest in resources, that knows that it needs to
Speaker 3: invest in its personnel, but it can't because it has
Speaker 3: sixty million dollar savings imposed on it and any spinning
Speaker 3: that it did would get the wrath of the minister.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Josh, Yet we've seen this year two firefighters
Speaker 2: having to be rescued from an aerial appliance while fighting
Speaker 2: a fire because the aerial appliance malfunctioned. You mentioned getting
Speaker 2: the gear and getting the appliance from Hamilton. Is it
Speaker 2: ridiculous in twenty twenty five that we don't have enough
Speaker 2: aerial appliances in our largest city.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, look, I think we're going to understand
Speaker 4: some of the complexities here. So you know, like Kerry's
Speaker 4: highlight of the ICC fire that we had in twenty
Speaker 4: nineteen now and twenty nineteen when that incident came through
Speaker 4: Auckland at that stage was only running one heavy aerial appliance.
Speaker 4: Fast forward six years forward and we're doing the same
Speaker 4: custom and practice with Hamilton's aerial having had a cos
Speaker 4: the day before. It was in for general maintenance and
Speaker 4: routine service. But because we have no fat in the system,
Speaker 4: that truck has to come out of commission. There's no
Speaker 4: relief appliants there to be able to sustain capability. So
Speaker 4: then we're in a mad rush to put it back
Speaker 4: together to then get it on the road to travel
Speaker 4: some two hours up to our largest city to serve
Speaker 4: and support us. And a lot of that comes back
Speaker 4: to we just don't have fat in the system. You know,
Speaker 4: we co share a heavy aerial relief of plants which
Speaker 4: is twenty seven years old. It's currently out of commission
Speaker 4: at the moment of waiting what its future looks like
Speaker 4: with some significant structural rush, you know, and it's seventeen
Speaker 4: years overdue a major rebuilder and infection. So you know,
Speaker 4: these are some of the complexities that we're facing in
Speaker 4: the frustration. That's you know, the reason why we're here
Speaker 4: talking to you today.
Speaker 1: And getting it from Hamilton.
Speaker 2: I mean that is reliant on it not getting turned
Speaker 2: around because it had a road closure as well.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 4: I mean it's not I mean it's road closures, but
Speaker 4: it's also too you know, we're robbing Pete to feed Paul,
Speaker 4: so to speak. You know, that then adds undue stress
Speaker 4: and pressure to the cruise down in Hamilton around their
Speaker 4: tactics and strategy because we've pulled their resource up to
Speaker 4: help us, you know, in twenty twenty five. In frontline operations.
Speaker 4: One we shouldn't be in a position where we're having
Speaker 4: to put trucks back together to respond them. But two,
Speaker 4: we should have enough surge capacity or capability in the
Speaker 4: system to be able to support cities major operational incidents
Speaker 4: and also be able to have fatness system to support
Speaker 4: general service servicing, routine checks, maintenance and the likes. You know,
Speaker 4: we shouldn't be lift in these positions where we're having
Speaker 4: to roll the boss, so to speak.
Speaker 3: I heard on the radio the other day the mayor
Speaker 3: of Hamilton claiming to be their fastest growing city in
Speaker 3: the country, and they also have a twenty seven year
Speaker 3: old aerial appliance, and they have an enormous amount of
Speaker 3: risks in the city that require fire response. And here
Speaker 3: we are using it in upland because we are not
Speaker 3: adequately resourced to look after ourselves. Let's suggest to me
Speaker 3: that the MS is broken.
Speaker 2: Joe Stanley, the NZPF YOUW Boss, was actually on the
Speaker 2: front page back in twenty twenty two talking about the
Speaker 2: lack of appliances.
Speaker 6: As an operation for far. As someone who works on
Speaker 6: a fight truck every day. I am disappointed that the
Speaker 6: money that it's given to the organization doesn't speed on
Speaker 6: responding to those communities' needs. The lack of heavy aerials,
Speaker 6: the parable state of their aging and decrepit pumping fleet
Speaker 6: as just an example of how the money is there,
Speaker 6: but it's not being spent in the right place.
Speaker 2: Are you surprised we're still having these conversations three years later?
Speaker 3: I have to say I'm not surprised. What does surprise me.
Speaker 3: FENS is doing some work towards this, and I acknowledge
Speaker 3: that there are some good people and femes doing some
Speaker 3: good work towards improving our fleet. What we're challenged with
Speaker 3: is a lack of resourcing in those departments and a
Speaker 3: lack of funding, a lack of appetit to spend money
Speaker 3: on additional resources. And who do we have to convince
Speaker 3: that spending additional money to make sure that our fire
Speaker 3: service is modern and prepared for the risks that we
Speaker 3: may need to attend. Who do we need to lobby
Speaker 3: to do that? We need to lobby the purse strings holder.
Speaker 2: Are you guys nervous about the state of things at
Speaker 2: the moment? I don't want to be all doom and gloom,
Speaker 2: But what do you reckon needs to happen for change
Speaker 2: to come about.
Speaker 4: Well, I think it definitely knocks the confidence out of
Speaker 4: our members. You know, you highlight the incident over on
Speaker 4: the shore on the twenty fourth of April, you know,
Speaker 4: it does taken off to the confidence and I think,
Speaker 4: you know, we need to acknowledge that our fire fighters,
Speaker 4: you know, they go to some of the most testing
Speaker 4: and trying conditions you know that you never meet in
Speaker 4: your life, and we want them to be confident. We
Speaker 4: want them to entrust their in their equipment to be
Speaker 4: able to do their job to the best of their ability.
Speaker 4: As for change, well, I think the first step is
Speaker 4: actually delivering on these operational reviews which have given us
Speaker 4: clear LFIS opportunities for improvement. You know, there's one thing
Speaker 4: to be able to talk about it, but then there's
Speaker 4: another thing to be able to have tangible deliverables on it.
Speaker 4: And also, you know, like Terry's talked about with this
Speaker 4: supposed review that was meant to be designed and released
Speaker 4: that we're nobody's seen and still waiting for, is that
Speaker 4: you know, there is a real significant need for an
Speaker 4: enhancement and capability. You know, our city at our city
Speaker 4: is sitting at one point six million people. You know,
Speaker 4: it's dramatically increased for us over the years, and we
Speaker 4: haven't seen an increase in staffing or performance and capability.
Speaker 4: I mean ironically, and Terry could quote to this, as
Speaker 4: you know, in the nineteen eighties we had six heavy
Speaker 4: eeril appliances in the city. We're now down to one
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to answer that question as well. Choose seat.
Speaker 3: So I've been a career firefighter. I think it's thirty
Speaker 3: eight years. I've been through a range of reviews and
Speaker 3: changes in this organization, and I personally believe that we
Speaker 3: are possibly in the west condition that we've been in
Speaker 3: my career. And I try to balance that. Is it
Speaker 3: because I know a whole lot more because I'm involved
Speaker 3: in the whole lot of stuff and that's quite notice,
Speaker 3: you know, during other changes, or is it genuinely are
Speaker 3: we really in a crisis environment? And it sort of
Speaker 3: doesn't matter where we are not in a we are
Speaker 3: not in good shape this organization.
Speaker 7: About two years ago, losses involved with this particular incident,
Speaker 7: a house fire that was starting to brew up, and
Speaker 7: so it was still savable. But as soon as hearing
Speaker 7: to go through the door, the pumpound a catastrophic water failure,
Speaker 7: just started dumping water on the brown It was a
Speaker 7: part failure. It was determined from that, and we're up
Speaker 7: with the investigation that it had failed because it had
Speaker 7: never been maintained. So it was the bureaucracy had missed
Speaker 7: the opportunity to make sure that the vehicles were up
Speaker 7: to speck and safe for.
Speaker 3: Us to use.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we keep here about getting more cops on the beat,
Speaker 2: the shortage of medical staff. I mean those hit the
Speaker 2: headlines all the time, and you guys are the third
Speaker 2: part of our emergency services.
Speaker 1: Isn't good enough? Or do you feel left behind?
Speaker 3: I think a really good answer to that is who
Speaker 3: is monitoring the performance of fire an emergency? And I
Speaker 3: would suggest that no one is monitoring their operational performance,
Speaker 3: their preparedness. Again, there are a lot of good people
Speaker 3: doing a lot of good work. But if we respond
Speaker 3: to an incident and our performance is not as good
Speaker 3: as it could be, we don't share that dirty laundry.
Speaker 3: And really, the only organization with a really good insight
Speaker 3: to how far an emergency is performing in the main centers,
Speaker 3: is the NZPF. You people don't necessarily think that we're
Speaker 3: a credible organization to be judging fire an emergency because
Speaker 3: we have conflictal interest, but it's still we are the
Speaker 3: only organization who is waving the flag and saying we
Speaker 3: have some serious problems here.
Speaker 2: Josh, if you got a minister in front of you,
Speaker 2: what would you say to them? What needs to happen
Speaker 2: like yesterday?
Speaker 4: Well, I think it comes down to this, really, you know,
Speaker 4: the New Zealand and public expect us to have the
Speaker 4: you know, for us to have our best day on
Speaker 4: their worst day, and for us to have our best
Speaker 4: day on their worst day. We need to have the
Speaker 4: tools of trade to be effective in their time of need.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: We we are a workforce that want to do good
Speaker 3: work for our communities and we don't want to be
Speaker 3: making excuses. And I think the question to the minister
Speaker 3: is what level of performance is okay for our community?
Speaker 3: And I think we've already we've already got worse than
Speaker 3: what is okay for many communities around New Zealand, and
Speaker 3: nobody knows that the performance has slowly been degrading and
Speaker 3: that is our problem. We have to have our communities
Speaker 3: know that Feinsi's performance is reducing.
Speaker 1: Terry and Josh thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3: Cre're welcome.
Speaker 2: For a response from fire an emergency New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Have a look in the show notes below.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 1: And tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.