WEBVTT - Episode 2: Sorry's Just A Word 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:01.360 So what are we doing? 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:04.600 How are we going to do this? How did you 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.879 envision this? Triptball or natural? My name is David Fisher. 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.280 I'm an investigative reporter for the New Zealand Herald, and 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.400 that is me speaking. Back in June twenty eleven, I 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.040 was at a roadside food court on the Southern Motorway 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.680 in Auckland. The Glamorous Life of a Journalist if you've 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.600 listened to episode one, I mentioned this meeting briefly. This 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.280 happened a few months after my investigation into Natalia Burgess 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.919 went live in The Herald on Sunday, The Facebook Predator, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.199 we called her. Then I exposed Natalia after learning she'd 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.040 been impersonating a number of young women on social media. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.640 She'd been using their photographs to lure teenage boys and 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.160 young men into online relationships. It took me a while 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.040 to get Natalia to talk on the record, and I 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.040 eventually met up with her at another glamorous dining destination, 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.680 the Muffin Break in Westfield Wall in South Auckland. During 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.400 that time, I've been building a relationship with one of 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.880 the women Natalia had impersonated. It was Natalie's photographs that 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:13.400 she'd been using for one of her main personalities. Natalie 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.720 and her mum, Kushler, had been fighting Natalia for several 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.240 years at that point, with Natalie's photographs being used as 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:25.440 the basis for Laura West, one of Natalia's main characters. Laura, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.440 you may remember, was the young woman killed off by 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.520 Natalia in a fictional car crash at the end of 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:37.080 twenty ten. We picked this truck stop as an in 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.959 between location. I picked Natalia up and drove her there. 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.319 In the article about the meeting between Natalia, Natalie, and Kushler, 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:51.960 I wrote about how Natalia couldn't take her eyes off Natalie. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.040 As I sat there and watched the two speak, I 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:59.200 could see Natalia reaching out on a number of occasions 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.520 to touch New on the arm. She was clearly enamored 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.200 to meet her victim, to meet the woman whose face 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.720 she'd used, But it took some prompting to get to 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.640 the point of what we've come there to do. We've 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.760 been sitting here for twenty five minutes half now. I 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.240 haven't heard you apologize yet. Do you feel you need to? 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:21.280 Yeah, of course I do. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.760 I am absolutely. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.800 So heartfully sorry that I here's your naders for all 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:33.880 of these people, plus now plus as I was reminded 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.040 that I forgot that. 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:36.680 Plus one of your friend's daughters. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.600 You know, yes, she was a little Yes, I said 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:41.200 to Italia. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:42.800 Actions are what sorry? 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.040 Story? You know, just the word actions? 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:47.600 What works? 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.480 Very late? Say sorry, sorry, sorry about the most You're 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.079 actually out there? Any help, confessing everything, putting this to 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.840 a stop once and for all. Then that's when I'm 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:58.200 to believe that your. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:02:59.040 Li was finished. 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.280 I mean I was, so you carry on the stands 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.400 your can you? Because I mean no, just be so 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.560 out like you said on sixteen minutes, you know, just for. 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:09.880 Yourself, yourself. 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.760 The three women discussed a lot during this conversation. We'll 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.040 dive back into this in a later episode when we 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.480 go more into what Natalie was up to prior to 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:22.079 her and I crossing paths in twenty eleven. We've been 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.519 about an hour in that sticky cheap food cart when 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.320 I said this to Natalia. You say you want to stop, 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:29.960 and you say you want to get better, and you 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:31.840 say you don't want to do it anymore. Doing that 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:33.680 is going to be really hard, and you're going to 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.160 have to give things up, and you're going to have 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.520 to make yourself do it. Natalia told me and Natalie 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.040 she wanted to stop listening back to that conversation and 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.360 that assurance. Thirteen years on, almost are naive taking Natalia 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.600 at her word, because, as you've probably worked out by now, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.560 Natalia didn't stop in twenty eleven. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.680 So my name is Crystal Journa and I was originally 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.440 born in New Zealand. I've moved over to Australia when 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.400 i was twenty seven and I'm now. 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:08.800 Thirty seven, so going on ten years living here. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.920 Crystal emailed me towards the end of twenty twenty two. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.400 She told me that a woman called Natalia Burgess had 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.720 been using her social media images, and that she'd done 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.960 so for almost a decade, crafting false identities that were 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:27.320 then used to trick men and women. Back in twenty eleven, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.360 Natalia had used such images of other people to create 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.120 a world of danger and drama and excitement, though she 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.920 pulled in believed everything was real. A few years after 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.159 she was exposed, after I had outed her, Natalia ended 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.159 up in jail. I thought that was the end of 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:51.560 her story, but when Crystal reached out to me, I 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.279 discovered that jail was just a short break in a 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.719 two decade fantasy that Natalia has played out online. For 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:03.039 the past year, investigating the extent of Natalia's online lies, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.719 spoken to many of the men and women that have 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.440 fallen victim to those deceits, and tried to find out 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.479 what can be done to stop her. I didn't think 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.760 I've investigating Natalia again, but now that I am, I'm 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.279 starting to wonder if I missed the real story the 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.800 first time it was told. I'm David Fisher and this 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.040 is Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer. 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:37.600 My name's Lucy L. 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:43.279 Jenna and I currently live in the UK. My daughter 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:49.080 is Crystal Jenna who lives in Surface Paradise in Australia, 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.719 and she's basically had her profile used by somebody called 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:59.000 Natalia Burgers for years now, which has impacted a lot 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.960 on her life, because, yeah, she's been selling her photos 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:09.200 and basically been trying to pretend that she is the 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:10.599 person behind the pho shows. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.719 Crystal has been living an awesome surfers Paradise life since 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.520 arriving in Australia in twenty thirteen. If you haven't been 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.799 to Surfers, as the locals call it, you've probably seen 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:26.200 images of it associated with Australia, the skyline of apartment 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:31.040 buildings towers above Golden Sand beaches. The local toroism organization 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.840 Destination Gold Coast uses words like iconic to describe it, 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:41.080 calling it an entertainment playground famous for world class nightlife, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.960 holiday vibes and a pumping atmosphere. 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.800 I currently own a couple of businesses, one being a 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.200 cleaning company, which I've been doing for the last three 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:52.240 and a half years. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.920 And I've got a couple of staff that also work 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.760 for me, so that's great. 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:01.320 And I also have a woman's clothing boutiques, so rangers 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:06.600 from like women's active wear, cocktail dresses, and swimwear as well. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:08.880 And that was a lot of what Crystal used social 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.880 media for pushing her business, showing fresh clothing designs, young, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.840 cool creations perfect for the Gold Coast. But that's not 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.240 all that was on Crystal social media. She works hard, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.520 but she plays hard too, absolutely living what she calls 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.560 her best life. I asked Crystal's mom to describe her daughter. 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.200 It's hardly an unbiased view, but this is the life 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:34.320 that Crystal made. 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:35.640 She's so social. 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.800 Her photos are fun like Obviously she's always having a 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:44.200 good time. Number One, she's super attractive, so she's got 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:49.720 very colorful photo. She's always smiling, laughing, you know, obviously 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:51.800 having fun out with her friends. 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:53.240 She's got a jet ski. 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.240 So she's out at the beach, She's out with her 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.080 dogs a lot. You know, they're just photos that would 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.440 appeal to a lot of people because it looks like 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.240 she's having a really good life. She's got everything going 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.040 on for here, so I think that's attractive to most people. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.000 Crystal's life was so appealing she became the new face 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.880 of a cluster of false identities used by Natalia Burgess 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:17.640 since twenty sixteen. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:22.160 I would say, stemming back almost eight years now, I've 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.520 had random contact with males that all approach me and say, hey, 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.120 I've come across a profile with all your photos. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.480 I've been talking to like. 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.320 A version of use of a cat versh version of you, 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:39.600 not realizing that you're actually a totally different person. 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.440 This is how it usually unfolds. And when I say usually, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.600 Crystal's been through this quite a few times over quite 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:52.040 a few years. It's generally, but not always, men who 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.199 approach her they will have connected with the false profile 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.559 and in most cases had some sort of prolonged engagement 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.520 with a person who has generally been called Kaylei. That's 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.440 the chosen first name, and it's an interesting one because 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.080 you might recall from the first episode there was the 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:15.880 name Natalia Burgess used for the child she invented, the 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:20.360 child whose fictitious mum, Laura West, died in that car crash. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.079 Kaylie is the name used for almost all of Natalia's fakes, 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.240 since she came out of jail the same first name 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.800 and a succession of surnames. And when Crystal was told 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.080 of and directed to those fake profiles, there was a 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.520 pattern that developed when she tried to visit them. 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.080 So usually I'm blocked. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.160 My personal profile on my Facebook or any social media 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:44.720 is blocked. 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.800 To see how her face is been used, Crystal has 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.480 to ask the men again usually men, but not always, 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:53.360 to send her screenshots. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.400 It'll be any photos that I potentially had, well, any 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.120 photos that I actually. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:02.120 Had that were public on either my. 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.040 Instagram or my Facebook, so anything that I had it 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.520 ahead in or anything that I might have also been 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.720 tagged on from friends pages. It would have usually myself 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.040 as a profile picture. She also used multiple of my 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:22.199 friends photos and made other profiles on Facebook using their 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.920 photos as well, and they would all the profiles would 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:26.839 talk to each other, I guess, making it look more 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:28.360 authentic like And. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.440 It's not just that Natalia has used Crystal's face. She 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.640 also mined crystal social circles for images to support the 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:42.480 new Kaylee false identities. She's even taken photographs of Crystal's friends' 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:47.760 children off their social media accounts and use them, claiming 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:49.559 they are children of her own. 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.960 This Kaylee person has all these other friends. The profile 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.760 will have multiple selfies of myself in whatever caption she 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:02.160 chooses to use. Initially, I was a single woman. Over time, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:07.040 I've become now as single map. She's used my friend's 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.839 children's boat I was from also mostly from Instagram. 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.520 I find there's where she finds a lot of her content. 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.280 Now it's the same pattern as twenty eleven, but now 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.680 with photos of real children, not just the baby voice 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.679 that Natalia would use on phone calls. Crystal doesn't have children, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.920 well she does if you include her beloved dogs. But 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:36.000 by taking photographs of other people's children, possibly even images 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.360 in which Crystal features, Natalia is able to add another 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.080 layer to the fancy world she's creating for Crystal, this 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.560 has gone beyond annoying. There was the awkwardness of men 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.240 contacting her and what they expected. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:55.360 I mean, obviously, the person she's trying to be is 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.760 a lot different to who I am. I mean, like 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.840 her alias of me, it does seem like a very 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.720 different profile to how I live my life and who I. 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.040 Am friends with. I think she almost plays like, you know, I'm. 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.920 A single woman looking for love, and that's how she 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:15.760 ends up talking to these men. 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.080 I'm almost like a helpless person. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:23.120 In her the way that she promotes me, like you know, 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.719 single woman just looking for love and someone to help 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:26.080 her out. 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.960 And there was the sinking feeling of having photographs of 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.480 big events in her life taken and news for another purpose. 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.360 But there was also the impact on Crystal's business. As 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.840 a fashion designer and retailer, Crystal needs to be able 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.360 to show off her weirs. Social media provides a great 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.720 platform to do so, and modeling from Crystal and her 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.560 group of friends provides a great showcase and a personal 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.280 connection between the viewer and the designer. But not so 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:59.000 much when every photograph is a new chapter in Italia's story. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.480 I did start making all of my photos and everything private, 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.200 so you know, my social media, my Instagram account is 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:09.880 our private. My Facebook, I've borne and physically changed all 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.560 my photos so it's friends only to try and stop 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.400 it from happening. But on the odd occasion, because I 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.720 do own a couple of businesses, I might open up. 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.080 My profile, for instance, for a week or so did 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:23.920 potentially do some advertising. 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:29.079 And I mean within a week, all my new photos 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.400 that I might have will be taken and a new 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.000 profile will be made again. 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.800 So just literally any photos that she can get hold of, 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:39.600 she will use. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.600 The impact isn't felt solely by Crystal. Being a parent 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.440 means you never stop worrying about your kids, feeling protective 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.760 of them, wanting the best for them, and that was 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.840 Lucille for Crystal, along with a growing realization that what 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.720 was happening in the online world was having a real 0:13:58.800 --> 0:13:59.600 world impact. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.319 She's quite an emotional person as well. She's quite deep 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.840 and you know, she looks like this, well she was 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.439 blonde at the time she's start now, but she looks 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.480 like this, like cute little blonde, you know. But she's 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.640 actually a very very deep person, and especially when she 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.680 found out that these guys were getting seriously hurt through this. 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.720 It really impacted on her, so she had to take 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.600 down all her profiles. Social media plays a big part 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.000 in her business because she needs to advertize and she's 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.680 part of the brand of her business, so it impacted 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:35.880 on everything this. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.520 Sial told me that during the years this unfolded, there 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.680 was a time when Crystal was struggling with depression. That's 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.320 not necessarily because her life and her friend's life was 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.880 constantly being mined for catfishing content. But it shows, says 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.280 these hell that perfect life photos you see on social 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.760 media aren't necessarily a reflection of what's really happening. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.200 I see that, like you said, the photos of somebody 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.600 and you think, well, their life's perfect, they must have 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.560 the best life ever. But in the background, there are 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.680 a lot of things going on with people, including her. 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:16.000 So for her, it was like a massive impact, especially 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:21.320 on her financial side, because she just couldn't put anything 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:23.880 public up because as soon as she put something public up, 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.880 Natalia would take the photos and create another profile with them, 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.920 and she didn't want to hurt any anyone. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:31.520 Else to get hurt. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.920 But also she's got to run a business. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:34.480 As well. 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.840 So yeah, it was really really difficult. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.960 After I first heard from Crystal, I made contact with 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.680 some of the men whom Natalia had lured in using 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.600 her photos. Some of these men who were tricked by 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.280 Natalia's profiles would sooner than later come across the real 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.760 Crystal online, and they mistakenly thought she was the woman 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.320 with whom that she had secrets and sexual experiences online. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.320 Since Crystal had spoken to them, she was able to 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.320 put me in touch with them. So who are these men? 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.280 Largely good dudes living complicated lives. 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:15.600 I'm Jaden Marin and I did own a beekeeping company 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.160 for the past ten years. 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.960 I'm currently in a rehab Jaden has a meth and 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.360 feedomin addiction for which he's seeking help. It was an 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.280 addiction that contributed to the prison sentence he had just 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:32.560 finished serving when he met Natalia, or rather he met 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:33.440 Kaylie Rose. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.360 I just recently got out of jail after spending five 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.920 and a half months in there. So I got out, 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.280 and I might have been out a couple of weeks 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.720 and then got back into drug using, and I was 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:53.360 using quite a lot of myth then. So I was 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.880 talking to quite a few women because I just got 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.560 out of jail, basically, So. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:03.360 This was Jaden lonely, wasted and a long time without 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.160 genuine warmth, cruising Facebook with hope in his heart and 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.720 meth andphetamine in his brain. It's not a great combination 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.000 for rational decision making. I met with Jaden when he 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.320 was in a rehab clinic in Auckland. He's trying to 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.399 get to grips with the addiction that led to a 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.399 general breakdown of life in then prison. It was the 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.800 right move and I hope it goes well for him. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.200 He was clear minded when we spoke, and he did 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.720 so because he recognized how easily someone could be sucked 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:35.480 into Natalia's world. So Jaden was sitting around wasted Facebook, 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.359 scrolling and thinking about women. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:41.800 I've seen the friend rest or whatever. And then there 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:46.320 was a photo of quite a good looking young blonde 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.680 lady and I had a quick flick through the photos, 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.199 obviously went through her page a little bit, and she 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:58.600 was constantly posting updates, probably maybe four times a day, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:03.280 constant photos out and stat us updates. 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.840 And this and that. At this stage and for some time, 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.600 Jaden thought the woman who contacted him was as she 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.720 presented herself. They started chatting, and one thing that sticks 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.040 with Jaden is how eagerly the false accounts sent messages. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:24.520 Natalia drove the conversation with question after question. Jaden, meanwhile, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.439 wasn't the most ideal conversation partner. 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.320 Obviously, I was high on drugs, preoccupied with other people 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.600 around me, doing my own thing, and I was trying 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.880 to just answering a question. Then there'd been another question 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.560 come through all of these messages having EXO on the 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.159 end of them, so obviously being a male or that 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.280 kind of caught my attention, like, oh, a beautiful woman, 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.000 and then she's engaging in the conversation. 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.640 Jaden's interest was beyond Pete. He wanted to know who 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:57.480 this woman was, so went from messenger to the page profile. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.840 Obviously I've gone through that a Facebook page. Was got 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.440 quite interested and they looked at the woman. 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.920 The detail that was in the profile was compelling. When 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.440 Jaden began exploring the fake profile, it was the detail 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.680 that convinced him that she was real. 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.679 She was uploading I'd say, two photos every day and 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.360 they're all different, Like whoever had done this, They'd put 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.240 a lot of work into this fake Facebook profile and 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.520 they muster. They had quite a lot of photos of Crystal. Like, 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:28.879 you went through the profile and it just looked like 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.960 a normal Facebook profile. Yeah, it looked quite genuine. 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.960 Jaden wasn't the only person at his house that night. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.040 There was a bit of a gathering going on, part 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.560 of what was distracting him from a deeper conversation with 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.440 the woman he had just met online. But the real 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.200 difference to the busy house that night was that, by 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.440 a chance, one of those people present knew the real Crystal. 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.600 There was maybe a five year old child and a 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.600 photo but with darker skin, and he noticed straight away, 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.879 He's like, she doesn't have a kid here on with 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:01.560 this profile. 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.960 As they looked more deeply, other cracks and the fiction emerged. 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.880 It took a couple of hours digging and a suspicious 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.480 mind already triggered by the photographs of the child, but 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.399 there were a number of tales which exposed the page 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:21.280 as fake. Then they made contact with the real Crystal. 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:25.119 He was friends with the actual Crystal on Facebook, and 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.439 we made contact with her and then let her know 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.120 what we had found out. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.800 What it followed is not unfamiliar to Crystal. The fake 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.080 page was exposed shut down and Jaden added to the 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.199 list of blocked people who couldn't access Natalia's page. This 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:45.520 whole scenario playing out one drug addull evening and left 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.560 Jaden with a feeling that hasn't shifted and why he 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:49.199 spoke to me. 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.439 I find it quite disturbing. I talked to quite a 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:57.880 few women while I'm single anyway, you know, I am 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.719 a maleso. We do what we do. But I found 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:07.320 it quite actually sickening and disturbing. Was always to the 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.040 point where, you know, it made me sick of the stomach. 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.760 Were what this woman was doing, half for what it 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.120 was doing, partially with the effect that she was having 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.040 on Crystal's life. But then if I'm just one of 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.280 the people that she's talking to, how many more people 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.680 out there is this happening to it? 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.320 I spoke to a few men who just didn't realize 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.240 the extent of Natalia's deceit. When I told them I 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.879 was doing a podcast about this. Many didn't want their 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.640 voices heard. They didn't want people who might recognize them 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.159 to connect their voice to the stories they told of 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.760 the woman they met online. It speaks to the shame 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:46.840 and the embarrassment that a lot of these men feel 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.520 about being deceived in a lot of ways. They're like Jaden, 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.560 tough guys. There's staunch guys in the real world, guys 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.359 who never really give a clue as to what's happening 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.840 beneath the surface. I get a few of them to 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.480 talk to me, some of them on the record, like Jared, 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.880 who lives in Western Australia. These are his words read 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:07.800 by a voice actor. 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.240 What you need to do is get her daughter help, 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.240 because obviously she's got her daughter helping her with the 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.399 lies and story as well. She used to call me 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:18.439 in the morning saying she just wants a daddy that 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:19.920 her own daddy doesn't want her. 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.160 After I told him there was no daughter. That was it. 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:29.439 The message has stopped. And there's Jake, who lives in Auckland. Jake, well, 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.879 he's been pretty messed up by the situation. When I 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.400 first spoke to Jake, he was open to an interview, 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:38.679 and then he wasn't, and then he goes to me. 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.120 But when we did speak, he told me just how 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.720 heavily invested he became in Natalia's world. 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:47.720 A guy committed suicide over it. That's where I would 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:49.080 have been heading if I'd kept on with it. 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.520 Jake's likely referring to Peter Russell there, who we spoke 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.840 about in episode one. But while it's the opinion of 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.280