WEBVTT - Simon Court: New-look Resource Management Act

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'd Be.

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<v Speaker 2>Cabinet has agreed that new RMA rules should only restrict

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<v Speaker 2>a building that impacts other properties or the wider environment.

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<v Speaker 2>The government said enjoyment and property rights will be the

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<v Speaker 2>guiding principle and replacing the RMA. But how much will

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<v Speaker 2>it really improve development? What difference will it make? Well

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<v Speaker 2>to discuss that with me now is the Undersecretary to

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<v Speaker 2>the Ministry responsible for RMA reform, and he is Simon Court.

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<v Speaker 2>Good afternoon, Good afternoon, Simon. Every time I would say

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<v Speaker 2>most New Zealanders hear the word the letter's rama. It's

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<v Speaker 2>never about anything good. What's wrong with it?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, for too long the Resource Management Actors made it

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<v Speaker 1>too difficult, unclear, too expensive to get consents to build

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<v Speaker 1>things that we know we need, whether it's housing, subdivisions

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<v Speaker 1>or new bridges for example. My background is a civil engineer.

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<v Speaker 1>I've worked on landfills, worked on rooting projects, and the

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<v Speaker 1>time it takes to get consens for things is often

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<v Speaker 1>longer than it takes to build things. So I've been

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about this for many years and now as part

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<v Speaker 1>of the coalition government have an opportunity to put some

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<v Speaker 1>of some of the concepts that Act campaigned on and

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<v Speaker 1>that are in the Act National Coalition Agreement into practice,

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<v Speaker 1>which is to replace a system we've got which is

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<v Speaker 1>called integrated resource management, mixing up development aspirations, Well the gosh,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got to protect everything everywhere we find it, the

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<v Speaker 1>precautionary principles saying well, we better not do it now.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to have a system that's going to be enabling.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to agree it's not if we can build something,

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<v Speaker 1>but where. And guess what. We know that most things,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's a bruge or a subdivision, have been done

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of times before, and they've been done with the

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<v Speaker 1>minimal environmental impact. We can simply take all of those

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<v Speaker 1>learnings put them into a new law, rather than having

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<v Speaker 1>to have people apply for consents for things that we

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<v Speaker 1>already know how to do. Well.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it just straightforward just to say, look, we're not

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<v Speaker 2>reforming now, we're throwing this one out and we're starting

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<v Speaker 2>from Is it starting from scratch?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we certainly are the problem with the resource management

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<v Speaker 1>at is it talks about all of these concepts going

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<v Speaker 1>back to the nineteen seventies, like sustainable development and integrated management.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just not possible. There's no other country in the

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<v Speaker 1>world has copied what New Zealand trying to do, bringing

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<v Speaker 1>all these things of the one law. Most other OECD

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<v Speaker 1>countries have separate law for development and housing, particularly for

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure enabling, and separate law that sets environmental limits, say

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<v Speaker 1>for fresh water, coastal areas or air quality. So we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to create two separate pieces of legislation and it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be very clear. There will be environmental limits

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<v Speaker 1>and places that there need to be and that are

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<v Speaker 1>special ti kiwis. But most of the places that we

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<v Speaker 1>want to get on and build, whether it's state highways,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's wastewater treatment plants or pump stations, housing subdivisions,

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to be shown on a map where they're going,

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<v Speaker 1>and at that point it won't be having to ask

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<v Speaker 1>for permission. All will be doing is making sure that

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<v Speaker 1>those things fit within existing environmental best practice.

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<v Speaker 2>How different does your approach to what labor, Because labor,

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<v Speaker 2>we're trying to reform it as well, weren't they.

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<v Speaker 1>Labor had proposed a very complicated series of new laws,

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<v Speaker 1>which included new and mystifying terms like temana tayo, which

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<v Speaker 1>the lawyers I've just been a couple of days with

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<v Speaker 1>the Planning Conference and New Plymouth this week said they

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<v Speaker 1>had no idea what that meant, how long it was

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<v Speaker 1>going to take to work out what it meant. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the last thing you do to give confidence to people

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<v Speaker 1>who want to get on and build stuff. They had

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<v Speaker 1>also planned that it would take ten years to implement

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<v Speaker 1>their new system. Well, what we're saying is, look, it's

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<v Speaker 1>much simpler than that. We've got to stop resource management

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<v Speaker 1>doing system doing things it's not meant to do. But

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<v Speaker 1>the resource management system doesn't need to control climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we've got the zero carbonac, we've got their

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<v Speaker 1>emissions trading scheme. The Resource Management Act actually doesn't need

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<v Speaker 1>to control heritage. If some people who work at your

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<v Speaker 1>local council think that the houses in your street look nice,

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<v Speaker 1>well they should come around and knock on the door

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<v Speaker 1>and ask the permission to lest those houses as heritage,

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<v Speaker 1>rather than an issue blanket heritage orders that actually make

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<v Speaker 1>it much harder for people to develop their properties.

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<v Speaker 2>So I noticed in Crispship speech one of the Senates

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<v Speaker 2>said that Cabinet has agreed to the high level principles

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<v Speaker 2>for the system. What are the high level principles.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there's around ten of them, and at a high

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<v Speaker 1>level essentially designs the outcomes of the act. So we

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<v Speaker 1>want two acts with clear distinct purposes. We want two

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<v Speaker 1>bottom lines, a double bottom line. We want to provide

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<v Speaker 1>essential human needs. That means infrastructure and housing, food production

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<v Speaker 1>for example, drinking water, energy, and the other bottom line

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<v Speaker 1>is environmental limits. We want councils to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>set environmental limits for fresh water, say in their region,

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<v Speaker 1>not have them set by central government national standards. For

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<v Speaker 1>most of the things we already do well. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I've worked as a soil engineer, I work with people

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<v Speaker 1>who do subdivisions, and I know that the emrosion can

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<v Speaker 1>seem control traffic management noise does They are all the

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<v Speaker 1>same type of consent conditions every time there's almost no change.

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<v Speaker 1>Wine Co we make these into annational standards so you

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<v Speaker 1>don't have to pay for consents. Now there's ten legislative criteria.

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<v Speaker 1>If your listeners want to find out more, you can

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<v Speaker 1>jump onto the high website. We'll certainly follow me on LinkedIn.

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<v Speaker 1>Simon Court and I'll be posting with your updates about

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<v Speaker 1>what we're up there.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you had input or conversations with the opposition about this?

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<v Speaker 2>And the reason I asked that is because obviously, in

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<v Speaker 2>major pieces of legislation, you know, we want an act

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<v Speaker 2>that's going to persist. We don't want it to be

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<v Speaker 2>played around within three, six, nine years time. So what

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<v Speaker 2>input are you expecting or seeking with other parties in

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<v Speaker 2>Parliament on this, Well, we will.

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<v Speaker 1>Be seeking the cooperation and support and some of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that we do agree on with you opposition, such

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<v Speaker 1>as the need for spatial planning one plan pro region

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<v Speaker 1>that shows where the infrastructure is now, where the future

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure is, we're housing should be built up in a

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<v Speaker 1>new transport bus center is going to be for example.

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<v Speaker 1>There is no political disagreement that we need one spatial

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<v Speaker 1>plan per region. That is an enduring concept. I think

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<v Speaker 1>some of the challenges will place around the previous government

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to make the treaty the center of resource management

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<v Speaker 1>and what we're saying is, look, it's focused on private

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<v Speaker 1>property rights. Many of the organizations I've spoken to ee

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<v Speaker 1>Maori ruining organizations that want to invest in infrastructure and

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<v Speaker 1>invest in their own housing. The place problem. They've got

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<v Speaker 1>this the barriers put up by the resource central system.

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<v Speaker 1>The last thing they want to do is have to

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<v Speaker 1>go and negotiate with cousins that get along down the

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<v Speaker 1>road and think the position about how they should be

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<v Speaker 1>allowed to develop their land. So we say, look, it

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<v Speaker 1>needs to be around private property rights, enabling infrastructure and housing,

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<v Speaker 1>protecting the environment with sound environmental and it's based on science,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not based on vibes. We think we'll have this

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<v Speaker 1>up and running within three years, so it'll be past

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<v Speaker 1>this term apartment and we aim to implement it very

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>What an impact do you expect it to have on

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<v Speaker 2>the cost of developments. Let's just look at say residential

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<v Speaker 2>proper then the cost of development. So how much money

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<v Speaker 2>do you expect is going to be saved through the

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<v Speaker 2>expediency of what you're proposing.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, a lot of the savings will be in the

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure provided to housing developments and where we want to

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<v Speaker 1>build up, saying cities like Auckland or Tarong or Hamilton

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<v Speaker 1>for example. The infrastructu Commission estimates that New Zealand spends

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<v Speaker 1>around one point three billion dollars per aund the just

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<v Speaker 1>on consenting infrastructure. Now we can move that into a

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<v Speaker 1>national standard where you don't have to ask for permission,

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<v Speaker 1>then potentially there's a billion dollars worth of savings right

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<v Speaker 1>there that won't go on through householders and infrastructure uses.

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<v Speaker 1>The other things we want to do is allow people

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<v Speaker 1>who own property and want to build on it, whether

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<v Speaker 1>that's housing or industrial subdivisions that actually provide jobs for people,

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<v Speaker 1>that they can just get on and do that and

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<v Speaker 1>they don't have to ask for permission. The only concern

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<v Speaker 1>that they'll have to address is does this affect my

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<v Speaker 1>neighbors if I'm building higher than allowed in the zone,

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<v Speaker 1>or is the noise, you know, the traffic movements for example,

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<v Speaker 1>going to affect people who who live next door. So

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to make it much easier to get on

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<v Speaker 1>and build the things that we need for housing that

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<v Speaker 1>encourage employment, and we think we can do this relatively quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>What about the environment are there? Does it create any

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<v Speaker 2>dangers in terms of people go on doing developments or

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<v Speaker 2>building infrastructure where the environment hasn't really been properly considered.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, one of the problems we've got the cities is

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<v Speaker 1>that we do want to build out and up, and

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<v Speaker 1>we have wastewater riverflows in Auckland into the harbor into

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<v Speaker 1>our fresh water system and in the countryside you've got

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<v Speaker 1>concerns that farmers are not looking after fresh water for example.

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<v Speaker 1>There's many different ways that are except to do this,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's constructing new wetlands, planting out raperian species along

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<v Speaker 1>the raperian margins, along stream banks. There are river care

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<v Speaker 1>groups around New Zealand. Catgement management groups want to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to take ownership of water quality their regions. They're

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<v Speaker 1>made up of farmers, regional counselors, ere groups. We want

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<v Speaker 1>to empower them to do that, and they can do

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<v Speaker 1>that by setting environmental limits that what they want to

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<v Speaker 1>see in their region, rather than have it handed to

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<v Speaker 1>them top down. So we've got to invest in the infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to provide an enabling pathway to do that

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<v Speaker 1>in our cities where there's real pressure on the environment

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<v Speaker 1>from growth, and we're going to give the opportunity to

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<v Speaker 1>fix up the local environment to people who know it

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<v Speaker 1>best and love it best.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the reactions You're getting any pushback or applaudits

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<v Speaker 2>from councils around the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Well after the past couple of days, I've had the

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<v Speaker 1>most incredible support from particularly lawyers and planners who work

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<v Speaker 1>for councils that are trying to get their own infrastructure upgraded,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's upgrading the local wastewater treatment plant, building new roads,

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<v Speaker 1>doing the coastal protection to stop the sea washing away

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<v Speaker 1>roads and homes, for example. They're telling me, Simon, if

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<v Speaker 1>you could get this as quickly as possible, would make

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<v Speaker 1>it much easier for us to actually deliver the infrastruct

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<v Speaker 1>through our communities met that we wouldn't spend years and

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<v Speaker 1>potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in court for each

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<v Speaker 1>results consent because someone turns out sectually a vicatious lilquan says, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't think what you're doing is right by the environment,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're going to object. We're actually going to make

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<v Speaker 1>it much harder, if not impossible, for people who do

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<v Speaker 1>not have direct interest of thems, they're not neighbors to

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<v Speaker 1>object to the kind of things that a local government

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<v Speaker 1>wants to do that benefit us. All. Yeah, overwhelming support

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<v Speaker 1>from the planners and the lawyers have spoken to over

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<v Speaker 1>the past few days. They're not worried about their jobs.

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<v Speaker 1>What they're really concerned about is extra delivant better services

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<v Speaker 1>for all their clients and getting on delivering stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>So, how you mentioned a window of about three years

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<v Speaker 2>to get this legislation passed. How long do you expect

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<v Speaker 2>it to be until the rule changes? The new act

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<v Speaker 2>would actually see a tangible change in the way we

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<v Speaker 2>get things done.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we'd like to have it passed. I think the

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<v Speaker 1>intention is and from its Relux has confirmed this will

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<v Speaker 1>we pass this term of government thinking a very rapid

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<v Speaker 1>implementation phase rather than creating a whole lot of new rules.

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<v Speaker 1>We're simply saying, if there's a national environmental standard safe

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<v Speaker 1>for chelecommunications, renewable energy, for electricity transmission, all these things

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<v Speaker 1>that really exist, then councils shouldn't be able to ask

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<v Speaker 1>for anything more, either in their plans or consents. Therefore,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to be able to do that as of right.

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<v Speaker 1>What we're hoping to do is to turn off large

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<v Speaker 1>parts of existing plans. Essentially national standards override, because look,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got a national standard to protect the environment. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no sense in law and Coupital's asking people for consent

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<v Speaker 1>conditions or for consents or putting planning conditions in their

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<v Speaker 1>local plans. We're going to make sure that this is

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<v Speaker 1>abled to implemented by turning off making things less complex,

0:11:49.401 --> 0:11:50.641
<v Speaker 1>rather than adding more stuff to the.

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<v Speaker 2>Me So you're going to pass this term, You've got

0:11:53.521 --> 0:11:56.401
<v Speaker 2>what eighteen months to get it sort of eighteen months

0:11:56.401 --> 0:11:59.641
<v Speaker 2>two years to get it all past, isn't you? Well?

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<v Speaker 1>Fortunately, we're not starting from black slate. I mean I

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<v Speaker 1>conduct more than forty interviews or people while in opposition

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<v Speaker 1>to come up with the policies that reflect accesspirations for

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<v Speaker 1>a system based on property rights. But that also all

0:12:15.681 --> 0:12:18.761
<v Speaker 1>the things that we've learned through the Select Committy processes

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<v Speaker 1>on the previous government's failed attempt at resource management reform.

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<v Speaker 1>We're taking all the good things that infrastructure, property developers

0:12:26.801 --> 0:12:29.961
<v Speaker 1>and the environmental scientists and fondness and we're putting them

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<v Speaker 1>into this design outline. We're going to get a group

0:12:34.001 --> 0:12:38.761
<v Speaker 1>of experts, lawyers, planners, environment scientists, people with tau Maori

0:12:39.281 --> 0:12:44.161
<v Speaker 1>knowledge to essentially produce the bulldeprint and the legislative architecture.

0:12:44.481 --> 0:12:47.041
<v Speaker 1>We're well down the track. We're not going to be

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<v Speaker 1>waiting for for years for a group of lawyers and

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<v Speaker 1>do good is to tell us how to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>We've set the addenda around about ten legislative principles and

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<v Speaker 1>we're expected to get on and act, start drafting legislation

0:12:59.681 --> 0:13:01.921
<v Speaker 1>early next year, have it into the House in middle

0:13:01.961 --> 0:13:02.721
<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 2>Excellent.

0:13:03.481 --> 0:13:03.641
<v Speaker 1>OK.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, look, so I'm going to re appreciate your time

0:13:05.521 --> 0:13:09.281
<v Speaker 2>this afternoon. So a big job, so crack on, thank

0:13:09.321 --> 0:13:11.481
<v Speaker 2>you very much. Yes, there we go that. Simon Courty's

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<v Speaker 2>the Under Secretary Parliamentary arounder secretary for RM reform. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to do some talkback after the break.

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<v Speaker 1>And now the.

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<v Speaker 2>Simple question is do you, well, simple straightforward questions, do

0:13:22.241 --> 0:13:25.361
<v Speaker 2>you support RAMA reform. I would have thought that's that's

0:13:25.361 --> 0:13:27.001
<v Speaker 2>a no brainer, isn't it. I mean, is there anyone

0:13:27.041 --> 0:13:29.801
<v Speaker 2>who thinks, no, no, RMA is working just fine right now?

0:13:30.001 --> 0:13:32.761
<v Speaker 2>Do you support it being basically let's throw it out

0:13:32.761 --> 0:13:34.601
<v Speaker 2>and start again and come up with a new piece

0:13:34.641 --> 0:13:39.041
<v Speaker 2>of legislation. But in particular the getting rid of I

0:13:39.041 --> 0:13:41.401
<v Speaker 2>guess actually the couple of things resonated. I think that

0:13:41.641 --> 0:13:43.761
<v Speaker 2>there's a I don't want to put this the wrong way,

0:13:43.761 --> 0:13:46.761
<v Speaker 2>but it does come across a little bit that in

0:13:46.801 --> 0:13:48.641
<v Speaker 2>a lot of our legislation there's a bit of virtue

0:13:48.681 --> 0:13:50.721
<v Speaker 2>signaling going on. And I don't mean this to beat

0:13:50.801 --> 0:13:53.441
<v Speaker 2>up on treaty principal clauses and things like that, but

0:13:53.561 --> 0:13:55.721
<v Speaker 2>more things that are a bit amorphous and hard to

0:13:55.721 --> 0:13:58.001
<v Speaker 2>sort of pin down. Do you support the idea? It's like, hey,

0:13:58.041 --> 0:14:03.401
<v Speaker 2>lock first principle, it's your property, do what you will,

0:14:03.641 --> 0:14:05.601
<v Speaker 2>but you must do it within the law. But we're

0:14:05.601 --> 0:14:07.281
<v Speaker 2>not going to make you jump through a million hopes.

0:14:07.641 --> 0:14:11.281
<v Speaker 2>Do you support this reform of the IMA? And for

0:14:11.441 --> 0:14:14.321
<v Speaker 2>more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news Talks

0:14:14.361 --> 0:14:17.681
<v Speaker 2>it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast

0:14:17.761 --> 0:14:18.681
<v Speaker 2>on iHeartRadio