1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,773 Speaker 1: from News Talks at. 3 00:00:11,653 --> 00:00:16,333 Speaker 2: B author Michael Conley one of the world's most beloved 4 00:00:16,573 --> 00:00:20,173 Speaker 2: thriller authors. He's created in depth universes around well known 5 00:00:20,293 --> 00:00:23,653 Speaker 2: characters like Mickey Haller and the Lincoln Lawyer and Harry Bosh, 6 00:00:23,973 --> 00:00:27,493 Speaker 2: and his narrative tellings continue to expand. His new book, 7 00:00:27,533 --> 00:00:29,853 Speaker 2: The Proving Ground sees how a team up with a 8 00:00:29,933 --> 00:00:33,693 Speaker 2: journalist to take on big tech AI and uncover a 9 00:00:33,693 --> 00:00:37,173 Speaker 2: whistleblower and hiding all with billions of dollars at stake. 10 00:00:37,773 --> 00:00:40,373 Speaker 2: Michael Conley is with us this morning. Kelder, Welcome to 11 00:00:40,373 --> 00:00:40,773 Speaker 2: the show. 12 00:00:42,253 --> 00:00:43,093 Speaker 3: Glad to be here. 13 00:00:43,453 --> 00:00:45,693 Speaker 2: It is a great pleasure to be speaking with you, 14 00:00:45,813 --> 00:00:48,133 Speaker 2: especially about The Proving Ground. It really feels like you 15 00:00:48,293 --> 00:00:52,253 Speaker 2: have taken on what is set to be the issue 16 00:00:52,293 --> 00:00:55,053 Speaker 2: of the time. So tell us how did you get 17 00:00:55,173 --> 00:00:56,973 Speaker 2: interested in artificial intelligence? 18 00:00:59,053 --> 00:01:01,733 Speaker 4: Well, I think I have a history of being interested 19 00:01:01,813 --> 00:01:11,333 Speaker 4: in technological advances, and for every great discovery and invention 20 00:01:11,573 --> 00:01:15,813 Speaker 4: and move forward with technology, there's always somebody out there 21 00:01:15,853 --> 00:01:19,253 Speaker 4: who is looking to turn it against us, you know, 22 00:01:19,373 --> 00:01:23,493 Speaker 4: So I usually use my reporter Jack McVoy that character 23 00:01:23,613 --> 00:01:26,213 Speaker 4: to explore this stuff. And I've done the Internet and 24 00:01:27,053 --> 00:01:31,733 Speaker 4: DNA analytics and data storage data DA and you know, 25 00:01:31,813 --> 00:01:34,733 Speaker 4: so AI was like kind of prime for me, I think. 26 00:01:35,293 --> 00:01:38,373 Speaker 4: And there was a couple of cases that really caught 27 00:01:38,413 --> 00:01:42,693 Speaker 4: my eye that made me, you know, say, yeah, I 28 00:01:42,733 --> 00:01:45,213 Speaker 4: know AI is going to change the world for the better, 29 00:01:45,333 --> 00:01:48,533 Speaker 4: but are we moving too fast or is there is 30 00:01:48,573 --> 00:01:51,573 Speaker 4: there you know, should we really understand what's going on 31 00:01:51,653 --> 00:01:57,133 Speaker 4: out there? And these involved young people being encouraged, I 32 00:01:57,133 --> 00:02:00,733 Speaker 4: guess is the right word, uh, to do things that 33 00:02:00,773 --> 00:02:03,293 Speaker 4: were really bad, like harm themselves or harm others. 34 00:02:03,493 --> 00:02:06,173 Speaker 3: And they they've broken the. 35 00:02:06,093 --> 00:02:09,973 Speaker 4: News couple of years ago, and so it started there 36 00:02:10,013 --> 00:02:13,573 Speaker 4: and then in the process of writing this book, things 37 00:02:13,613 --> 00:02:15,893 Speaker 4: like this we're breaking in the news almost every week, 38 00:02:16,053 --> 00:02:18,213 Speaker 4: and so it's kind of become come to a head 39 00:02:18,213 --> 00:02:23,533 Speaker 4: at the moment. And so you know, the proving Ground 40 00:02:23,653 --> 00:02:25,693 Speaker 4: is an exploration of it. You know, I don't want 41 00:02:25,693 --> 00:02:29,533 Speaker 4: to say it's didactic didactic or tells anyone how to think, 42 00:02:29,573 --> 00:02:32,933 Speaker 4: but it does, you know, maybe raise a flag and 43 00:02:32,973 --> 00:02:34,253 Speaker 4: say take a look at this. 44 00:02:34,413 --> 00:02:36,613 Speaker 2: Well, I think it yeah, I think it explores some 45 00:02:36,693 --> 00:02:42,693 Speaker 2: of the inherent ethical complexity that comes with the technology. Right, 46 00:02:42,893 --> 00:02:45,093 Speaker 2: And so how do you how do you think about 47 00:02:45,133 --> 00:02:50,213 Speaker 2: that ethical complexity with some of the other technological subjects 48 00:02:50,213 --> 00:02:52,053 Speaker 2: that you focused on in the past, Because, like you say, 49 00:02:52,733 --> 00:02:54,933 Speaker 2: this is not the first time you've you've had your 50 00:02:54,933 --> 00:02:57,773 Speaker 2: eye keenly focused on the technology of the moment. 51 00:02:59,213 --> 00:02:59,453 Speaker 3: Yeah. 52 00:02:59,453 --> 00:03:01,813 Speaker 4: I mean, as I said before, I usually use this 53 00:03:01,893 --> 00:03:07,013 Speaker 4: journalist character that I've created, but this time where I 54 00:03:07,093 --> 00:03:11,453 Speaker 4: found out about these incidences were usually through the filing 55 00:03:11,493 --> 00:03:15,973 Speaker 4: of lawsuits, and so it struck me as something that 56 00:03:16,013 --> 00:03:18,373 Speaker 4: should be in Mickey Haller's court. And of course I 57 00:03:18,453 --> 00:03:22,893 Speaker 4: bring Jack McAvoy into it as a lesser character, because 58 00:03:22,893 --> 00:03:24,933 Speaker 4: that's what I've been doing with him in the past. 59 00:03:26,293 --> 00:03:28,693 Speaker 4: But yeah, it just seemed like the construct of a 60 00:03:28,733 --> 00:03:33,573 Speaker 4: courtroom where both sides have to say you know, and 61 00:03:33,693 --> 00:03:38,693 Speaker 4: you can hopefully build some tension and surprises and things 62 00:03:38,733 --> 00:03:43,373 Speaker 4: like that. It just seemed perfect for that stage, that 63 00:03:43,933 --> 00:03:47,093 Speaker 4: square room. And it added to a couple of years ago, 64 00:03:47,173 --> 00:03:50,973 Speaker 4: the last time I wrote about Mickey Haller was in 65 00:03:51,013 --> 00:03:54,013 Speaker 4: a book called Resurrection Walk, and it ended with him 66 00:03:54,053 --> 00:03:56,653 Speaker 4: saying I have to find a pivot, I have to 67 00:03:56,693 --> 00:04:01,053 Speaker 4: move in another direction, and so that it played into that, 68 00:04:01,493 --> 00:04:04,453 Speaker 4: and so the case in the proving ground is not 69 00:04:04,493 --> 00:04:07,173 Speaker 4: a criminal case. He's not defending any buddy, he's on 70 00:04:07,213 --> 00:04:11,093 Speaker 4: the offensive. He's called himself a public interest lawyer now. 71 00:04:11,853 --> 00:04:15,853 Speaker 4: And so he finds a case and he files it 72 00:04:15,893 --> 00:04:19,213 Speaker 4: and it's against a big tech company. So you know, 73 00:04:19,533 --> 00:04:22,333 Speaker 4: it just all worked out perfectly. Not only was this 74 00:04:23,253 --> 00:04:27,093 Speaker 4: what's going on in our world the right time, but 75 00:04:27,133 --> 00:04:29,773 Speaker 4: it was also the right time in my fictional world 76 00:04:29,933 --> 00:04:31,573 Speaker 4: with this character. 77 00:04:32,253 --> 00:04:34,493 Speaker 2: Or with this characters. And this is what you were 78 00:04:34,533 --> 00:04:36,893 Speaker 2: just alluded to. So you have Mickey Hola and you 79 00:04:36,893 --> 00:04:40,013 Speaker 2: have Jack McAvoy, who are usually in their own worlds, 80 00:04:40,053 --> 00:04:42,613 Speaker 2: and I appreciate that it's to some extent the same 81 00:04:42,693 --> 00:04:45,173 Speaker 2: kind of fictional world. But but taught me through the 82 00:04:45,853 --> 00:04:51,413 Speaker 2: decision process to get characters who have been isolated in 83 00:04:51,533 --> 00:04:53,693 Speaker 2: series in the past and then and then bring them 84 00:04:53,733 --> 00:04:56,693 Speaker 2: together like this. Is that Is there ever any any 85 00:04:56,773 --> 00:04:57,693 Speaker 2: tension there is? 86 00:04:57,933 --> 00:04:58,373 Speaker 4: Is that ever? 87 00:04:58,613 --> 00:05:00,933 Speaker 2: You know a kind of you know, is that a 88 00:05:00,933 --> 00:05:03,933 Speaker 2: difficult thing for you to do? 89 00:05:03,933 --> 00:05:06,133 Speaker 3: You mean, like do they take Jack aside and say, hey, 90 00:05:06,133 --> 00:05:06,613 Speaker 3: look and I. 91 00:05:06,693 --> 00:05:11,053 Speaker 2: Can yeah, yeah, yeah, you're gonna be You're gonna be 92 00:05:11,093 --> 00:05:13,613 Speaker 2: rolling to Mickey's batman this time around. 93 00:05:14,493 --> 00:05:17,653 Speaker 4: Yeah, not really, I mean I've been doing it as 94 00:05:17,693 --> 00:05:22,573 Speaker 4: you said, you know, for other characters, and I just thought, 95 00:05:23,053 --> 00:05:26,853 Speaker 4: you know, Mickey is kind of in the new proving ground, 96 00:05:26,933 --> 00:05:30,133 Speaker 4: if you will, He's uh uh, you know, he used 97 00:05:30,133 --> 00:05:33,253 Speaker 4: to knowing the how to cut corners and how things 98 00:05:33,293 --> 00:05:36,853 Speaker 4: work in a criminal court, but this is new for him, 99 00:05:37,093 --> 00:05:40,333 Speaker 4: and I thought he could have he should have, you know, 100 00:05:41,053 --> 00:05:46,573 Speaker 4: some major backup. And who else but Jack McAvoy, would 101 00:05:47,213 --> 00:05:49,453 Speaker 4: you know? I think it was very believable that Jack 102 00:05:49,533 --> 00:05:52,533 Speaker 4: shows up and says, I want to write about this case, 103 00:05:52,573 --> 00:05:54,573 Speaker 4: but I think I can help you as well. Yeah, 104 00:05:54,573 --> 00:05:57,333 Speaker 4: and it goes from there and Jack does do some 105 00:05:57,413 --> 00:06:00,693 Speaker 4: good work and gets a major get in this case. 106 00:06:00,733 --> 00:06:01,813 Speaker 3: I think. Yeah. 107 00:06:01,853 --> 00:06:05,733 Speaker 2: So as part of this writing process, you know your 108 00:06:05,853 --> 00:06:11,053 Speaker 2: community experienced those extreme fires. How did you personally feel 109 00:06:11,493 --> 00:06:14,253 Speaker 2: affected by seeing the scale of the devastation. 110 00:06:16,253 --> 00:06:18,653 Speaker 4: I you know, if you live here and love the place, 111 00:06:19,413 --> 00:06:22,053 Speaker 4: it affected you. I mean, but it is a vast place, 112 00:06:22,213 --> 00:06:25,413 Speaker 4: so you know, I had some experiences with it. I was, 113 00:06:25,893 --> 00:06:29,693 Speaker 4: what do you call it, evacuated from this house where 114 00:06:29,733 --> 00:06:32,053 Speaker 4: I'm talking to you from. I had another house that 115 00:06:32,173 --> 00:06:35,773 Speaker 4: burned to the ground, you know, so it's hard not 116 00:06:35,893 --> 00:06:38,413 Speaker 4: to know someone who's affected. I mean, you know, I'm 117 00:06:38,453 --> 00:06:43,013 Speaker 4: involved in a couple of TV shows and literally dozens 118 00:06:43,213 --> 00:06:45,933 Speaker 4: of the people and the crews and in the cash 119 00:06:46,053 --> 00:06:49,853 Speaker 4: lost their homes, lost everything. I feel I was luckier 120 00:06:49,893 --> 00:06:53,573 Speaker 4: than others. And then some people didn't affect at all 121 00:06:53,853 --> 00:06:56,373 Speaker 4: in terms of their home. 122 00:06:56,213 --> 00:06:56,813 Speaker 3: And so forth. 123 00:06:56,893 --> 00:07:00,333 Speaker 4: But if you lived here, it affected you because you know, 124 00:07:00,453 --> 00:07:02,853 Speaker 4: you knew it was a. 125 00:07:02,453 --> 00:07:04,253 Speaker 3: Deep wound to this community. 126 00:07:04,333 --> 00:07:06,653 Speaker 4: And like I said, I don't think there's any body 127 00:07:06,653 --> 00:07:09,813 Speaker 4: who doesn't know somebody who wasn't directly affected. 128 00:07:09,893 --> 00:07:12,893 Speaker 3: I mean almost ten thousand homes were gone, so. 129 00:07:14,333 --> 00:07:17,373 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so it's had a deep effect. And that, 130 00:07:17,773 --> 00:07:19,933 Speaker 4: you know, in terms of me being a writer, and 131 00:07:19,973 --> 00:07:25,373 Speaker 4: a writer who wrongly or rightly is kind of expected 132 00:07:25,413 --> 00:07:28,213 Speaker 4: to be a voice of la I had to back up, 133 00:07:28,413 --> 00:07:32,173 Speaker 4: start over, and and and put it in the into 134 00:07:32,213 --> 00:07:35,013 Speaker 4: the story, but hopefully not in an exploitive way, but 135 00:07:35,173 --> 00:07:38,733 Speaker 4: in a way that would kind of show basically, I 136 00:07:38,733 --> 00:07:41,413 Speaker 4: try to use one person as a metaphor for the city, 137 00:07:41,453 --> 00:07:44,413 Speaker 4: and what she goes through is what the city's going through. 138 00:07:44,693 --> 00:07:49,293 Speaker 2: How has it changed your perspective seeing you know, such 139 00:07:49,333 --> 00:07:56,173 Speaker 2: a developed city rendered so vulnerable to mother nature like that. 140 00:07:57,413 --> 00:08:00,333 Speaker 4: I mean, I think in some ways we've always known that. 141 00:08:00,453 --> 00:08:02,773 Speaker 4: I mean, because we live in you know where earthquakes 142 00:08:02,773 --> 00:08:05,973 Speaker 4: could shake the whole place to the ground at any time, 143 00:08:06,053 --> 00:08:09,573 Speaker 4: so we know we're vulnerable. And it's a balance of 144 00:08:10,493 --> 00:08:15,093 Speaker 4: the beauty and and and freedom you feel here and 145 00:08:15,373 --> 00:08:18,133 Speaker 4: but knowing you know, around the corner or at any minutes, 146 00:08:18,413 --> 00:08:20,973 Speaker 4: things can change. I mean, I don't know, I should 147 00:08:21,053 --> 00:08:23,773 Speaker 4: try to show I mean like this is a beautiful place. 148 00:08:23,813 --> 00:08:25,613 Speaker 4: I am still lucky I get to live here, and 149 00:08:25,653 --> 00:08:26,453 Speaker 4: that's my window. 150 00:08:26,693 --> 00:08:27,373 Speaker 3: Yeah, and. 151 00:08:28,773 --> 00:08:32,253 Speaker 4: Uh, and and there's always been because of past things 152 00:08:32,293 --> 00:08:37,333 Speaker 4: like major earthquakes, and we've had fires before, even riots, 153 00:08:38,453 --> 00:08:41,893 Speaker 4: there's been a built in resilience that you feel about 154 00:08:41,893 --> 00:08:45,773 Speaker 4: this place. And so even though this was quite devastating, 155 00:08:46,093 --> 00:08:48,053 Speaker 4: you know, I wrote an essay within a couple of 156 00:08:48,093 --> 00:08:50,813 Speaker 4: weeks saying, like, I know we'll be back. We built, 157 00:08:51,093 --> 00:08:54,093 Speaker 4: build back. That's what we do in LA. And you 158 00:08:54,093 --> 00:08:56,213 Speaker 4: know that's a community thing that you know, it's not 159 00:08:56,293 --> 00:08:58,733 Speaker 4: just La. If this happened to any place, you know, 160 00:08:58,853 --> 00:09:02,373 Speaker 4: hurricanes in Florida, which I have experienced with, you know, 161 00:09:02,613 --> 00:09:05,933 Speaker 4: it's the it's the human this of it that that 162 00:09:06,173 --> 00:09:10,453 Speaker 4: you know, humans have some kind of ability to. 163 00:09:12,013 --> 00:09:14,973 Speaker 3: Shake it off, rebuild and move on. Yeah. 164 00:09:15,333 --> 00:09:17,693 Speaker 2: So Michael, you're just showing me the view out of 165 00:09:17,693 --> 00:09:22,333 Speaker 2: your window through your zoom link right now. It looks incredible. Yeah, 166 00:09:22,373 --> 00:09:24,173 Speaker 2: like you say, a beautiful part of the world. You're 167 00:09:24,173 --> 00:09:27,053 Speaker 2: listening to Jack Tame. I'm speaking with author Michael Conley 168 00:09:27,173 --> 00:09:30,293 Speaker 2: about the Proving Ground, his latest book. Michael, you said 169 00:09:30,333 --> 00:09:34,253 Speaker 2: a few minutes ago that you think, on balance, AI 170 00:09:35,413 --> 00:09:40,933 Speaker 2: has some amazing present, some amazing opportunities to the world 171 00:09:40,933 --> 00:09:45,173 Speaker 2: that it's net positive. But how do you feel about 172 00:09:45,213 --> 00:09:49,693 Speaker 2: the state of AI regulation versus the technology as that 173 00:09:49,773 --> 00:09:53,653 Speaker 2: stands and the power that is concentrated within a few 174 00:09:53,813 --> 00:09:56,253 Speaker 2: big tech barons in their companies. 175 00:09:57,693 --> 00:10:01,173 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the key, and that's usually where 176 00:10:01,213 --> 00:10:01,813 Speaker 3: I come in. 177 00:10:01,933 --> 00:10:04,653 Speaker 4: You know, like I was writing about the DNA analytics 178 00:10:04,693 --> 00:10:07,413 Speaker 4: before the government had any rate relation on it, and 179 00:10:07,453 --> 00:10:10,293 Speaker 4: it was like, you know, it was the wild West. Well, 180 00:10:10,333 --> 00:10:14,213 Speaker 4: the AI is now the wild West. You know, there's 181 00:10:14,253 --> 00:10:19,893 Speaker 4: no government oversight. So it's become this very competitive business 182 00:10:19,973 --> 00:10:22,933 Speaker 4: with billions of dollars at stake. And yes, they're the 183 00:10:23,013 --> 00:10:26,573 Speaker 4: advancements and improvements are especially in the fields of medicine 184 00:10:26,613 --> 00:10:30,493 Speaker 4: and so forth, are just just phenomenal. And overall this 185 00:10:30,573 --> 00:10:35,093 Speaker 4: is going to improve the world. I believe that. But 186 00:10:35,173 --> 00:10:38,653 Speaker 4: I just think, as Mickey Holler says in this you 187 00:10:38,733 --> 00:10:43,773 Speaker 4: need more guardrails, you need more overwatch to make sure 188 00:10:43,933 --> 00:10:46,653 Speaker 4: some company trying to make a billion dollars off of 189 00:10:46,773 --> 00:10:51,293 Speaker 4: chatbot is not giving a chatbot coded by thirty year 190 00:10:51,333 --> 00:10:55,573 Speaker 4: old men to thirteen year old girls or boys. You know, 191 00:10:55,653 --> 00:10:58,573 Speaker 4: it's there's a lot of common sense that hasn't come 192 00:10:58,613 --> 00:11:03,133 Speaker 4: into play yet. And and you know, if any if 193 00:11:03,133 --> 00:11:07,093 Speaker 4: there's any flag raised by this book, and I even 194 00:11:07,133 --> 00:11:09,813 Speaker 4: hesitate to say that because it's a thriller I am 195 00:11:09,933 --> 00:11:12,893 Speaker 4: in but it does explore, you know, what's going on 196 00:11:12,973 --> 00:11:17,453 Speaker 4: in society, but hopefully aout me being preaching about it. 197 00:11:17,533 --> 00:11:20,893 Speaker 4: I mean maybe Mickey preaches about it in his closing arguments, 198 00:11:21,213 --> 00:11:26,853 Speaker 4: but you know, I just think, come on, guys, think about. 199 00:11:26,573 --> 00:11:29,253 Speaker 3: What you're doing and what you whose hands you're putting 200 00:11:29,253 --> 00:11:29,893 Speaker 3: stuff into. 201 00:11:30,093 --> 00:11:32,613 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well said, Hey, thank you so much for 202 00:11:32,613 --> 00:11:35,253 Speaker 2: your time, Michael, We really appreciate it. Congratulations on the 203 00:11:35,253 --> 00:11:39,933 Speaker 2: proving ground. I hope, given your prolific nature, that you 204 00:11:39,973 --> 00:11:42,453 Speaker 2: do allow yourself to put down the pen every now 205 00:11:42,493 --> 00:11:43,933 Speaker 2: and then and have a little bit of a break. 206 00:11:43,973 --> 00:11:47,293 Speaker 2: But yeah, it really is remarkable, So we really appreciate 207 00:11:47,293 --> 00:11:47,693 Speaker 2: your time. 208 00:11:48,613 --> 00:11:50,693 Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me. I appreciate your time. 209 00:11:50,893 --> 00:11:53,653 Speaker 2: That is Michael Connolly. The Proving Ground, the eighth book 210 00:11:53,813 --> 00:11:57,733 Speaker 2: in Michael's Lincoln Lawyer series, is out now and all 211 00:11:57,733 --> 00:11:59,573 Speaker 2: the details will be on the News Talks. He'd be 212 00:11:59,653 --> 00:12:00,813 Speaker 2: website for. 213 00:12:00,853 --> 00:12:03,933 Speaker 1: More from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame. Listen live to 214 00:12:04,013 --> 00:12:07,053 Speaker 1: News Talks he'd be from nine am Saturday, or follow 215 00:12:07,093 --> 00:12:08,653 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.