1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,653 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B Follow 2 00:00:12,733 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:18,732 Speaker 2: Simon, Welcome to the show, Simon Wolfe. 4 00:00:19,133 --> 00:00:19,533 Speaker 3: How are you? 5 00:00:19,573 --> 00:00:23,293 Speaker 4: Yeah, Hi guy, Yeah, you might know. I've had experience 6 00:00:23,332 --> 00:00:26,772 Speaker 4: in both areas of local government in the regional council 7 00:00:26,853 --> 00:00:30,453 Speaker 4: now in nine years on the City council, and local 8 00:00:30,493 --> 00:00:34,893 Speaker 4: government is a mess. It needs review, it needs reform, 9 00:00:35,453 --> 00:00:40,053 Speaker 4: but also central government need to treat it more seriously 10 00:00:40,573 --> 00:00:45,893 Speaker 4: as a vehicle that can be more effective and more efficient. 11 00:00:46,412 --> 00:00:49,013 Speaker 4: And you know, Wellington's a really good example. You know, 12 00:00:49,492 --> 00:00:53,053 Speaker 4: we on the Regional council. We have the environment, we 13 00:00:53,092 --> 00:00:57,293 Speaker 4: have transport, but you know where we're we're sort of 14 00:00:58,053 --> 00:01:02,853 Speaker 4: interlinked a rural a big rural area to the north 15 00:01:02,893 --> 00:01:06,653 Speaker 4: of us in an urban area within Wellington. But there's 16 00:01:06,693 --> 00:01:12,133 Speaker 4: a lot of cross subsidization there. There's it just needs 17 00:01:12,173 --> 00:01:16,053 Speaker 4: to be streamlined more. Part of the big problem with 18 00:01:16,212 --> 00:01:21,093 Speaker 4: cost is government compliance and party politics. Each time a 19 00:01:21,173 --> 00:01:26,933 Speaker 4: government puts out a national policy statement, generally a council 20 00:01:27,013 --> 00:01:30,773 Speaker 4: will have to to to move and change. But there's nothing, 21 00:01:31,133 --> 00:01:36,693 Speaker 4: no remuneration to help that happen. So you have to employ, 22 00:01:36,813 --> 00:01:41,493 Speaker 4: don't you you you you really you've got new new 23 00:01:42,693 --> 00:01:46,133 Speaker 4: lines that you've you've got to sort out. So it's 24 00:01:46,173 --> 00:01:51,813 Speaker 4: it's interesting, but it certainly from my experience, it's not 25 00:01:51,813 --> 00:01:55,573 Speaker 4: getting any better. It's getting worse. One of the things 26 00:01:55,573 --> 00:01:58,173 Speaker 4: that I should just let you guys know is that 27 00:01:58,173 --> 00:02:00,613 Speaker 4: there are there are three or four different types of council. 28 00:02:01,253 --> 00:02:05,893 Speaker 4: People are getting confused district council. You've got a district council, 29 00:02:06,213 --> 00:02:10,373 Speaker 4: you've got a city council, and you've got a regional council. 30 00:02:10,573 --> 00:02:14,693 Speaker 4: And then in Auckland you've got a unitary And I 31 00:02:14,733 --> 00:02:18,013 Speaker 4: think with Wellington we should be looking to have a 32 00:02:18,053 --> 00:02:24,293 Speaker 4: phased amalgamation, you know, the two huts together, Wellington and 33 00:02:24,373 --> 00:02:27,813 Speaker 4: Pari Ruh together to start off with maybe carpety and 34 00:02:27,853 --> 00:02:31,213 Speaker 4: Horrorfanu and the wire Rapper. Probably the best example is 35 00:02:31,573 --> 00:02:34,852 Speaker 4: Wellington with it having a city Council which handles the 36 00:02:36,333 --> 00:02:39,133 Speaker 4: urban requirement of it should be the pipes and the 37 00:02:39,213 --> 00:02:43,053 Speaker 4: roads and the parks and the libraries, but it does 38 00:02:43,133 --> 00:02:47,933 Speaker 4: get into other things. Whereas the regional council is the 39 00:02:47,972 --> 00:02:51,933 Speaker 4: region of four hundred and fifty thousand going up to 40 00:02:52,252 --> 00:02:55,773 Speaker 4: wire Rapper and across to Otaki and down back to 41 00:02:55,773 --> 00:02:59,133 Speaker 4: Wellington and it's urban and rural, but it handles really 42 00:02:59,173 --> 00:03:04,613 Speaker 4: only the public transport offering the trains in the buses 43 00:03:05,173 --> 00:03:08,813 Speaker 4: and also the environment which is a very very technical area. 44 00:03:08,853 --> 00:03:10,453 Speaker 4: In fact, both are technical areas. 45 00:03:10,773 --> 00:03:13,133 Speaker 2: So we've got little councils, we've got other little councils 46 00:03:13,252 --> 00:03:17,213 Speaker 2: underneath that major regional council as well, not under but 47 00:03:17,573 --> 00:03:18,613 Speaker 2: you know in the same district. 48 00:03:19,413 --> 00:03:23,053 Speaker 4: Yeah, within within our district. You know, we've got some 49 00:03:23,213 --> 00:03:31,493 Speaker 4: carpety obviously the two huts and also the three councils 50 00:03:31,532 --> 00:03:36,293 Speaker 4: in in so you know, like it's a hotspotch and 51 00:03:36,533 --> 00:03:41,693 Speaker 4: and each have their different prerequisites and it's it's really 52 00:03:41,733 --> 00:03:44,413 Speaker 4: really hard to align the ball fairly. 53 00:03:45,013 --> 00:03:49,093 Speaker 3: Do community boards play any part with regional councils What 54 00:03:49,213 --> 00:03:51,253 Speaker 3: they bring to the table at the community level, Does 55 00:03:51,253 --> 00:03:53,452 Speaker 3: that have any bearing at the regional council level? 56 00:03:54,493 --> 00:03:58,573 Speaker 4: No, No, regional council Well, our regional council certainly doesn't 57 00:03:58,613 --> 00:04:04,213 Speaker 4: have community boards. But we do align ourselves with some 58 00:04:04,293 --> 00:04:08,773 Speaker 4: of the community boards that are more rurally aligned, you know, 59 00:04:08,853 --> 00:04:13,133 Speaker 4: like I go along to Macro Ohario Community Board from 60 00:04:13,173 --> 00:04:17,613 Speaker 4: time to time when they have difficulties with the farming 61 00:04:17,693 --> 00:04:20,813 Speaker 4: or the environmental sort of side. But there again is 62 00:04:20,853 --> 00:04:24,573 Speaker 4: an anomaly because we actually should have more involvement with 63 00:04:24,973 --> 00:04:31,853 Speaker 4: those communities. Shane Shane Jones and his little speech last week, 64 00:04:31,893 --> 00:04:37,533 Speaker 4: he knew exactly what he was doing, serving up some 65 00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:41,493 Speaker 4: some publicity about regional councils, and I think he was 66 00:04:41,573 --> 00:04:45,733 Speaker 4: more it was more with and more. It was more 67 00:04:45,813 --> 00:04:48,813 Speaker 4: talking about not just the regional councils, but the district 68 00:04:48,853 --> 00:04:52,853 Speaker 4: and the city councils that were in the regions. And 69 00:04:52,933 --> 00:04:56,053 Speaker 4: Shane's really good at this. I just hope that he 70 00:04:56,053 --> 00:05:00,773 Speaker 4: he drives some some review and reform because it's really 71 00:05:00,773 --> 00:05:05,333 Speaker 4: really important. It is costing us, as costing everyone, and 72 00:05:05,453 --> 00:05:09,493 Speaker 4: you know, there's there's it's in a way part of 73 00:05:09,493 --> 00:05:12,653 Speaker 4: the problem is parochialism. Some of and some of your 74 00:05:12,813 --> 00:05:15,653 Speaker 4: call has talked about, you know, we're only five million 75 00:05:16,213 --> 00:05:18,853 Speaker 4: and we've got all these little councils. We would be 76 00:05:18,973 --> 00:05:24,693 Speaker 4: much more effective, efficient, and especially from a rate paying perspective, 77 00:05:25,133 --> 00:05:32,573 Speaker 4: if some of the councils were merged and were amalgamated, 78 00:05:32,693 --> 00:05:37,093 Speaker 4: and particularly you look at the issues with water. You know, 79 00:05:37,613 --> 00:05:40,893 Speaker 4: the great at Wellington Regional Council and the city councils 80 00:05:41,213 --> 00:05:44,533 Speaker 4: all have parks, interests. You know, there's a lot of 81 00:05:44,653 --> 00:05:49,453 Speaker 4: duplication and triplication going on, and it's really full, it's 82 00:05:49,493 --> 00:05:53,533 Speaker 4: really full hearty. It's not practical or pragmatic. But I 83 00:05:53,573 --> 00:05:57,773 Speaker 4: think you're probably the biggest issue within councils generally, and 84 00:05:57,853 --> 00:06:02,893 Speaker 4: I've experienced both both the good and the bad of 85 00:06:02,933 --> 00:06:06,413 Speaker 4: this is where councils either have a good culture or 86 00:06:06,413 --> 00:06:09,613 Speaker 4: a bad culture. And you know, like coming from the 87 00:06:09,613 --> 00:06:13,773 Speaker 4: Wellington City Council to the Regional Council, I would just 88 00:06:13,853 --> 00:06:17,853 Speaker 4: never go back. You know, the Regional Council has great 89 00:06:17,933 --> 00:06:23,173 Speaker 4: leadership all the way through. It's structured really really well. 90 00:06:23,733 --> 00:06:30,133 Speaker 4: The councilors have expertise and if I was to say anything, 91 00:06:30,413 --> 00:06:33,093 Speaker 4: you know, like I'm on a steep learning curve in 92 00:06:33,133 --> 00:06:37,893 Speaker 4: my first term. But there asn't the party politics that 93 00:06:37,933 --> 00:06:41,613 Speaker 4: you got in the Wellington City Council. And we've been 94 00:06:41,653 --> 00:06:46,173 Speaker 4: able to make decisions and have robust conversations. There's creative 95 00:06:46,773 --> 00:06:50,253 Speaker 4: creative tension quite a lot of the time, but we 96 00:06:50,413 --> 00:06:54,093 Speaker 4: work together to try and create solutions. We're not perfect 97 00:06:54,733 --> 00:06:59,933 Speaker 4: and the model of of councils is just terrible. 98 00:07:00,053 --> 00:07:03,173 Speaker 2: You know, would would you suggest just regional councils then 99 00:07:03,613 --> 00:07:06,173 Speaker 2: so less councils, just regional councils. 100 00:07:06,333 --> 00:07:10,133 Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't call them regional council there would be 101 00:07:10,173 --> 00:07:12,653 Speaker 4: some some other term that you know. 102 00:07:12,693 --> 00:07:14,133 Speaker 2: Well, if there was only then they could just be 103 00:07:14,173 --> 00:07:15,013 Speaker 2: called councils. 104 00:07:15,773 --> 00:07:20,573 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think. I think so with with community boards 105 00:07:20,613 --> 00:07:23,773 Speaker 4: feeding in, I think that's really really important because you've 106 00:07:23,773 --> 00:07:27,173 Speaker 4: got to have the engagement and the feedback. 107 00:07:27,813 --> 00:07:32,013 Speaker 2: This might this might seem like a silly question, but 108 00:07:32,613 --> 00:07:36,293 Speaker 2: if there's you say, this duplication, So who has the 109 00:07:36,333 --> 00:07:36,973 Speaker 2: final say? 110 00:07:37,893 --> 00:07:37,973 Speaker 3: So? 111 00:07:38,053 --> 00:07:40,653 Speaker 2: If there's if there's if you've got the city Council 112 00:07:40,693 --> 00:07:43,813 Speaker 2: and the regional council disagreeing on something in in a 113 00:07:43,893 --> 00:07:46,733 Speaker 2: duplicated area, who who has the authority? 114 00:07:47,813 --> 00:07:50,013 Speaker 4: Well they just fight it out. And you know that's 115 00:07:50,053 --> 00:07:54,453 Speaker 4: what's happening at the moment with Wellington City and the 116 00:07:54,533 --> 00:07:58,533 Speaker 4: Regional Council in relation to the regional council has the 117 00:07:58,533 --> 00:08:02,573 Speaker 4: buses and the City Council is the road enabling authority 118 00:08:02,693 --> 00:08:05,453 Speaker 4: and say where you can put bus stops and what 119 00:08:05,613 --> 00:08:06,893 Speaker 4: you can where you can put. 120 00:08:06,813 --> 00:08:09,053 Speaker 3: Yellow That's crazy, that is crazy. 121 00:08:09,893 --> 00:08:16,413 Speaker 4: That's an absolutely a terrible situation that occurs. And with 122 00:08:16,653 --> 00:08:20,413 Speaker 4: that you have your political views that influence what goes 123 00:08:20,453 --> 00:08:23,933 Speaker 4: on there, and you can have the most reasonable pragmatic 124 00:08:24,333 --> 00:08:31,533 Speaker 4: officials or even on one side, elected people, and on 125 00:08:31,613 --> 00:08:37,293 Speaker 4: the other you might have ideology and it's gonna just 126 00:08:37,413 --> 00:08:41,373 Speaker 4: stalemates and you get all this conflict that who pays 127 00:08:41,492 --> 00:08:42,132 Speaker 4: the rate payer? 128 00:08:43,173 --> 00:08:45,693 Speaker 3: Well, even outside of the even outside of the elected 129 00:08:45,732 --> 00:08:50,253 Speaker 3: councilor's simon, would you agree that at the city council 130 00:08:50,653 --> 00:08:54,093 Speaker 3: or the council level staff members sometimes it's the tail 131 00:08:54,093 --> 00:08:56,933 Speaker 3: wagging the dog where it appears regional council, you as 132 00:08:56,933 --> 00:09:00,293 Speaker 3: an elected member have more say I. 133 00:09:00,173 --> 00:09:02,853 Speaker 4: Haven't found that a regional council. I certainly found it 134 00:09:03,132 --> 00:09:05,732 Speaker 4: in the city council of my nine years, I certainly 135 00:09:05,852 --> 00:09:11,213 Speaker 4: found that there were areas there that people pats protected. 136 00:09:12,252 --> 00:09:16,733 Speaker 4: You know, they've ren fenced themselves. And it wouldn't have 137 00:09:16,813 --> 00:09:21,052 Speaker 4: mattered what sort of votes went through that that had 138 00:09:21,093 --> 00:09:23,372 Speaker 4: been changed. It would have been really really slow if 139 00:09:23,372 --> 00:09:27,773 Speaker 4: any whereas the situation that I found on the regional council, 140 00:09:27,852 --> 00:09:31,853 Speaker 4: that that does not happen. Fortunately, we we had a 141 00:09:32,173 --> 00:09:36,933 Speaker 4: two really strong leaders politically and operationally, and I think 142 00:09:37,293 --> 00:09:42,453 Speaker 4: they're both really pragmatic people focused, they have empathy, and 143 00:09:42,573 --> 00:09:46,492 Speaker 4: they have technical expertise as well, and they lead us 144 00:09:46,612 --> 00:09:50,333 Speaker 4: really well. And you know we're not we're not faultless, 145 00:09:50,533 --> 00:09:54,333 Speaker 4: you know, we're certainly not. And the other thing is 146 00:09:54,372 --> 00:09:58,053 Speaker 4: that you know you're having to jump through hoops and 147 00:09:58,173 --> 00:10:03,093 Speaker 4: change direction all the time. You know that the continuity 148 00:10:03,093 --> 00:10:08,493 Speaker 4: and consistency largely because of government and the national us 149 00:10:08,573 --> 00:10:13,373 Speaker 4: as statements. You're always on edge, and it doesn't matter 150 00:10:13,413 --> 00:10:19,613 Speaker 4: what council you're on. You'd have to refocus and reprioritize 151 00:10:19,653 --> 00:10:21,852 Speaker 4: all the time, and something is going to get left behind. 152 00:10:22,252 --> 00:10:26,293 Speaker 4: And that is why, that's the big reason why I 153 00:10:26,413 --> 00:10:31,093 Speaker 4: believe that the councils are wildly and that central government 154 00:10:31,732 --> 00:10:36,132 Speaker 4: doesn't take local government seriously enough to be able to 155 00:10:36,693 --> 00:10:38,573 Speaker 4: have them both work the right way. 156 00:10:39,053 --> 00:10:42,372 Speaker 2: Now, if we think that regional would be better than having, 157 00:10:42,653 --> 00:10:44,772 Speaker 2: you know, like larger councils, why don't we just take 158 00:10:44,813 --> 00:10:47,333 Speaker 2: it right to the top and just have central government. 159 00:10:47,333 --> 00:10:50,172 Speaker 2: There's only five million of us, so why don't the 160 00:10:50,213 --> 00:10:52,533 Speaker 2: decision making all get done by central government? I don't know, 161 00:10:52,533 --> 00:10:58,133 Speaker 2: you could empower electorate MPs or some form of I 162 00:10:58,132 --> 00:11:00,173 Speaker 2: don't know, an MP for each each part of the 163 00:11:00,173 --> 00:11:02,732 Speaker 2: country or whatever. Why don't we just expand it out 164 00:11:02,773 --> 00:11:05,372 Speaker 2: that central government makes all the decisions. 165 00:11:05,252 --> 00:11:10,733 Speaker 4: Because I think that central government but they couldn't cope, 166 00:11:11,333 --> 00:11:15,773 Speaker 4: you know, like I believe that the workload of a 167 00:11:15,573 --> 00:11:20,732 Speaker 4: of a city councilor in particular, and regional councilors in 168 00:11:21,413 --> 00:11:26,372 Speaker 4: metros in particular is huge, you know, like it's a 169 00:11:26,413 --> 00:11:30,573 Speaker 4: really really big workload. I'm not it's not just being 170 00:11:30,693 --> 00:11:33,653 Speaker 4: too disparaging of MPs, but I'm not sure that that 171 00:11:35,093 --> 00:11:38,453 Speaker 4: within what they have to handle currently and to have 172 00:11:38,573 --> 00:11:41,413 Speaker 4: that added on would be a good thing. Let alone, 173 00:11:42,012 --> 00:11:48,612 Speaker 4: you do want the democratic process that there is the 174 00:11:48,813 --> 00:11:55,893 Speaker 4: need to have localism represented. I think, you know, count 175 00:11:56,933 --> 00:12:01,052 Speaker 4: the less layers the better, and really there are too 176 00:12:01,093 --> 00:12:05,133 Speaker 4: many layers. But I don't think canning councils is the 177 00:12:05,213 --> 00:12:09,892 Speaker 4: right right way. It's scanning some of a it's condensing 178 00:12:09,933 --> 00:12:13,293 Speaker 4: stuff so that it takes away some of the conflict 179 00:12:13,453 --> 00:12:14,213 Speaker 4: and the costs. 180 00:12:15,252 --> 00:12:18,372 Speaker 3: Simon, great to get your expertise, Thank you very much, 181 00:12:18,533 --> 00:12:22,693 Speaker 3: and good to break that down, and good luck going 182 00:12:22,732 --> 00:12:25,172 Speaker 3: forward with your regional council role. I was going to 183 00:12:25,213 --> 00:12:27,372 Speaker 3: say it was a bit like Turkey voting for Christmas, 184 00:12:27,413 --> 00:12:31,013 Speaker 3: but I think to Simon's point, he would prefer Regional 185 00:12:31,053 --> 00:12:34,772 Speaker 3: Council to become just the council and you take party 186 00:12:34,813 --> 00:12:37,292 Speaker 3: politics and in fighting away from it, and he's found 187 00:12:37,333 --> 00:12:40,333 Speaker 3: regional council was far nicer, less toxic environment than the 188 00:12:40,372 --> 00:12:40,892 Speaker 3: city council. 189 00:12:41,492 --> 00:12:44,413 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks B listen live on air 190 00:12:44,612 --> 00:12:47,333 Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you 191 00:12:47,372 --> 00:12:49,813 Speaker 1: go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.