1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: calls for urgent action after yet another fatal dog attack. 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: The death of a sixty two year old woman in 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: Northland marks the fourth fatal dog attack in four years. 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: It's while dog related injuries and hospitalizations rise every year 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 2: as well. Acc statistics show more than twenty nine than 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: two hundred dog related injuries in twenty twenty four to 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: twenty five, nearly half of them a result of dog bites. 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: So how do we get on top of this issue? 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: Should dog control laws go further? Today on the Front Page, 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: SPCA Chief Scientific Officer Doctor Anya Daala is with us 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: to discuss how we could potentially move forward so no 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: one else dies from a dog attack. First off, why 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 2: has this I guess current case or a most recent 17 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 2: case of a dog attack prompted such a strong response 18 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: from the SPCA. 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 3: The reason that we've come out very strongly at the 20 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: moment is because we have been calling for action since 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen and meeting with successive ministers over the years. 22 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: What's changed with this latest tragic fatality is that there's 23 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 3: now a lot of media attention and ministerial interest in it, 24 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 3: and so that is the difference. I don't can't explain why, 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: given that we've had four fatalities over the last four years, 26 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: this one is any different. But I think people are 27 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: just saying this is not acceptable, this is not safe. 28 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: These are tragedies that we actually can prevent with evidence 29 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 3: based review of the Dog Control Act, with evidence based 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: preventative measures, and it is just not acceptable that we're 31 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: dealing with an act that is thirty years old, and 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 3: that we know dog bites are increasing. We know that 33 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: we have had more fatalities in the last few years 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: than we have had. We used to have one every 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 3: three years. That was not acceptable either, but we've had 36 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 3: more and more as well as a lot of publicity 37 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: around the issues of roaming dogs, particularly in Northland, killing 38 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: stock and enduring stock, you know, our farmed animals, particularly sheep. 39 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: People have just said this is it, this is too much, 40 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: we don't want to live in the society. 41 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 2: Well, the fact of the matter is that these deaths 42 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: are completely preventable as well. So why wouldn't we change 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: the laws as you said, that are decades old. What 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: should we change the laws to what would be your recommendations. 45 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: Well, there, we've got a number of recommendations. And the 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: first thing that we need to do is that we 47 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: cannot tinker around the edges and do knee reactions following 48 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: following these high profile tragedies because that doesn't prevent future harm. 49 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: Reform must be carefully considered, it must be evidence based, 50 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 3: and it must focus on prevention. So our focus as 51 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: a country must be on stopping the attacks before they 52 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: have been, not just reacting afterwards. So what we urgently 53 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: need is a nationwide evidence based approach, which is modern, 54 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 3: contemporary legislation that actually focuses on behavioral science and preventative 55 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: measure measures. We need consistent enforcement, we need responsible breeding, 56 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 3: we need early behavioral intervention, and we need public education 57 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: involving both dog safety and possible dog ownership to stop 58 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: serious incidences before they actually happen. So we're calling for 59 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: three three things. We're calling on an urgent, substantive, evidence 60 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: based review of the Dog Control Act nineteen ninety six, 61 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 3: so thirty years old. It's hopelessly out of date. It's 62 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: out of step with evidence based approaches. We're also calling 63 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 3: on central government to reinstate grants to councils to subsidize 64 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: desexing of menacing and roaming dogs as an upstream preventative measure. 65 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: So they did this in twenty seventeen, which was the 66 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: first time they did it and the only time they 67 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: have done it. But desexing is a really important part 68 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 3: of the preventative measure, so they had an eight hundred 69 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: and fifty thousand dollars grant back then. But desexing is expensive, 70 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: it is a barrier, so we need to do this. 71 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 3: Central government needs to show leadership and do this. The 72 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 3: third thing we're calling for is standardized national guidelines for 73 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 3: counsels on actions to take following a dog bye incident, 74 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: to ensure that they are proportionate, evidence based interventions, that 75 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: they incorporate recognized tools such as the Dunbar byte scale. 76 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: And this actually allows for early intervention and appropriate action 77 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 3: to prevent tragedies before they occur because it's a risk 78 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: based measure. 79 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: In terms of the desexing, we do that with cats anyway. 80 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: At the moment, don't we to protect native. 81 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 3: Birds, So the government doesn't provide any funding for cat desexing, 82 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: and like I mentioned, only once in twenty seventeen, which 83 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 3: was only one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which actually 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 3: doesn't go very far unfortunately so, but the SPCA spends 85 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: approximately these are for community animals, These are not for 86 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: animals in our centers. For community animals, we spend about 87 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: four million dollars desex and community animals, and we particularly 88 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: have been focusing on Northland because there are issues there. 89 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 3: Over the last couple of years, we're desect about four 90 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: two hundred dogs in Northland to help solve the problems 91 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: up there. But it's not enough. This is not an 92 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 3: SPCA issue, this is a community issue, and we don't 93 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 3: have central government leadership to actually take charge and actually 94 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: put in some evidence based, systemic preventative measures to stop 95 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: these tragedies occurring. 96 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 4: Yes, it is actually very sad that we've had another 97 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 4: fatality in the North due to marauding, ferocious as I've 98 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 4: described them, homicidal dogs. But there's a deeper reality at 99 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 4: stake here. We do have very dangerous, unwanted breeds of 100 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 4: dogs here in New Zealand, and they are being crossbred 101 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 4: by people who pretend to be hunters, but an actual fact, 102 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 4: all they're doing is create a new type of menas 103 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 4: in our community. So please back our government with a deep, 104 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 4: vigorous examination and development of new rules and regulations as 105 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 4: to what level of fitness should you show before you 106 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 4: even allowed to own a dog. If the dog has 107 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 4: maimed and hurt someone, take it immediately from the property 108 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 4: and if they haven't come within seventy two hours to 109 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 4: accept responsibility, put it down. 110 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: Is there any way from stopping people from owning animals 111 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: before they get them so we know that they can 112 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: be charged. If you know they are a dog owner, 113 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: for instance, and then you find that dog mal nourished 114 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: or mistreated, you can then place restrictions on that person 115 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: as to whether they can own an animal between you know, 116 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: the next year, two years, five years, etc. Is there 117 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: anything that we can do or is there anything you 118 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: think we should do to stop people from owning animals? 119 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: Well, provisions already under the Dog Control Act that allow 120 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: courts to disqualify someone from owning dogs in serious cases, 121 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 3: but simply asking whether we stop people owning animals altogether 122 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: sort of misses the broader issue because most serious incidences 123 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: do not arise in isolation. What they do is they 124 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: reflect gaps in early intervention and enforcement, consistency and national oversight. 125 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: This is often something that comes up after a tragedy. 126 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 3: What we actually need is a full overhaul of the 127 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: whole system and actually focus on consistent, evidence based measures 128 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: that will stop these situations occurring. There are situations in 129 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 3: other parts of the world that have already put all 130 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: these measures in place, so we don't need to reinvent 131 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: the wheel. We can look overseas to where it actually 132 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 3: has worked and actually bring them into the New Zealand 133 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 3: framework because New Zealanders deserve better. It is unacceptable for 134 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: people to be scared to walk down the road, to 135 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: be kids, to be scared to go to school. It's 136 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: unacceptable the level of dog bites that occurring in Zealand. 137 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: You know, we can look at the ACC data and 138 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: over the past six years there's an upward trend in 139 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 3: dog bite injury claims, so increasing from eleven and a 140 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 3: half thousand to more than fourteen thousand annually, and that 141 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: is really really concerning. New Zealand should be very concerned 142 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 3: about that. And these figures only reflect reported injury claims. 143 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: They don't tell us about the severity of these bites. 144 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: They don't tell us about the underlying causes. And we 145 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: also know that the majority of dog bites actually don't 146 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 3: are not reported. And part of the reason is is 147 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 3: that we know that the majority of dog bites occur 148 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 3: either in your own home or in homes of friends 149 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 3: and families, often a little bit of pressure or people 150 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: don't want to upset things, and so they're not actually reported, 151 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 3: and that is really really concerning. 152 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 2: So I guess what you're saying is if we had 153 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: better preventative measures, I mean, fatalities wouldn't happen because presumably 154 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: those dogs would have been reported somewhere else down the line. 155 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: Yes, if you have evidence based interventions like the Dunbar 156 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: bite scale that I mentioned, it allows for early intervention 157 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: and actually appropriate action to be taken before these tragedies occur. 158 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 3: And that is the most critical thing, along with education. 159 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: Education is really really key here. It's just one part. 160 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: What we really need is a multi factorial, multi agency, 161 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: multi layered approach, which is happening to some degree already. 162 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 3: But what we're seeing is it's not enough. And the 163 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 3: reason it's not enough is because we don't have central 164 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: government leadership. We haven't had an evidence based reform of 165 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: the Dog Control Act, we haven't had We don't have 166 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: consistent national guidelines for counsels following a dog by incident. 167 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: At the moment, it's a lottery post code how your 168 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: counsel is going to respond because we don't have these 169 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 3: tools to ensure that proportionate, evidence based interventions are actually 170 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 3: in place, so that risk can be assessed and early 171 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: intervention can be put in place and appropriate action to 172 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 3: prevent these tragedies. 173 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 2: When you say evidence based, can you give me an 174 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: example of what that might entail. 175 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 3: So, for example, with dog safety education, we know that 176 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 3: there are mixed messaging going into schools. Now, there are 177 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: private companies that do it, there's counsels that do it, 178 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: but they're not cons system and not having consistent messages 179 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: is confusing not only to children but also to parents. 180 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: About what happens when you get bitten by a dog? 181 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: Well, what happens? How to prevent being bitten by a dog? 182 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: You do not like the most important thing is that 183 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 3: children and dogs are always supervised. You never force any 184 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 3: interaction that needs to be on their own measures. You 185 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 3: eliminate risk by not letting children go and disturbing dogs 186 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: while they're sleeping or while they're eating, or while they're 187 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: having a chewing a bone. These are all high reward 188 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 3: things for dogs, and we know the science says eliminating 189 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 3: that risk, making sure there's full supervision actually reduces dog bites, 190 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: particularly in that zero to nine age group. Now remember 191 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: the zero to nine age group. These are our small 192 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: vulnerable children and when they get bitten by a dog, 193 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 3: the vast majority of them are facial injuries. For adults, 194 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: when they get bitten by a dog's more it's more arms, 195 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 3: legs and hands that get bitten. We know that from 196 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 3: the statistics and the analysis that has been done. So 197 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: we really need to actually help our councils making sure 198 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: they're properly resourced and making sure they actually can have 199 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: consistent behavior based COORS assessments across councils. And we really 200 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 3: need to focus the dessexing on menacing dogs and roaming 201 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 3: dogs because we know that that is a significant concern 202 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: for societies to have these roaming dogs. We know that 203 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: there are parts of New Zealand that this is more 204 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 3: likely to occur, So we know that if you do 205 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: targeted interventions on these communities, it will result in a 206 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 3: reduction in dog bites and that it should be what 207 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 3: the government is actually focusing on. 208 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: I guess I'm trying to find I'm finding it hard 209 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: to understand what a change in the law would mean 210 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: for getting rid of roaming dogs, say, or menacing dogs. 211 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: Rather that you can't do without that education, just getting 212 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: a grant and saying, hey, here, educate dog owners on 213 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: what to do, because in my mind it's obvious that 214 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: you don't let a three year old kid or something 215 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: next to a dog that's eating, you know, so why. 216 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 3: Them around the hug them around the neck, things like that. Yeah, 217 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: I'm not good for dogs. But most of all, what 218 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 3: we need is for dog owners all over as well, 219 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: is to recognize the early signs that a dog is 220 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: not comfortable in a situation. Dogs signal that they are 221 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: not comfortable. Sometimes the que is subtle, but for example, 222 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: our Dogs Safe Happy Homes is all about teaching children 223 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: and adults about how they can recognize these early signs 224 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: so that they can actually remove the dog from the 225 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 3: situation or the child from the situation, so that we 226 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 3: don't actually end up with situations where these behaviors have 227 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 3: to escalate and there is no other choice for the animal. 228 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 3: But to show more overt aggression. We want to be 229 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 3: able to eliminate that risk. But the reason we focus 230 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: on the Dog Control Act is because it was drafted 231 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: thirty years ago. It doesn't reflect modern behavioral science, it 232 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 3: doesn't reflect contemporary preventative approaches. And actually the Dog Control 233 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 3: Act is the legislation that sort of overhangs all of this. 234 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: It's really difficult to say, and you can't really put 235 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: it down to breath. I know guy who had his 236 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: auchilies tend and saved by Chiuahwa when he was at work. 237 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: He was putting blinds up and don't worry, my dog 238 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: won't bite and it save it as accies tendon. So 239 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: we can't look at breeds. All dogs can bite. And 240 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: this is what people forget. I think we have people 241 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: going I've got a Labrador. They love kids. I think 242 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: labrador is a lot more tolerant than other dogs. But 243 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: there are so many different aspects to it. You know, 244 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: you having people and it's lovely to call yourself abhorrent 245 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: and to have a fur baby, but there's still a dog. 246 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: You've got to treat them like a dog, not like 247 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: a toy. 248 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: And just lastly, do you think that we should be 249 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: as a society, I mean, treat dog ownership as a 250 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: privilege and not a right. 251 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 3: The question isn't just about whether we should introduce another 252 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: requirement for dog owners but whether it actually the evidence 253 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: shows it will meaningfully reduce risk. And we know for 254 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 3: so overseas that there's been mixed results unless they're really 255 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: well designed and consistently enforced and supported by education and 256 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: behavior based assessments. So that's really important. So in the UK, 257 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: they had a dog license system. This is different to 258 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 3: registration which is currently mandated under the Dog Control Act. 259 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: This is different. They abolished that in nineteen eighty seven 260 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 3: because compliance was so long, so low, and enforcement costs 261 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: outweighed the benefits. 262 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: All right, So because anybody's dog can have puppies, and 263 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: then I can just give you one and say do 264 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 2: you want it? Do you want one of these puppies? Right? 265 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 3: Exactly, that's exactly right. And also like introducing knowledge tests 266 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 3: for dog ownership is an idea that also comes up. 267 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: We support education, it absolutely matters. We know that understanding 268 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 3: canine behavior, supervision and early warning signs do reduce risk. 269 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 3: But what we've seen from overseas from the evidence, and 270 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 3: the international experience is that it's all about the motivated 271 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: owners will do it, but they don't necessarily reach the 272 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 3: small number of high risk situations where serious harm actually occurs. 273 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: So if we're really serious about prevention, then any education 274 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 3: requirement would need to sit within a broader, modernized framework, 275 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: which is consistent enforcement, behavior based risk assessment, support from 276 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,479 Speaker 3: central government for desexing, menacing and roaming dogs, and this 277 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: comprehensive evidence based review of the Dog Control Act. So 278 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 3: there is no one silver bullet. It needs to be 279 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: really comprehensive. It needs to be evidence based, and it 280 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 3: needs to be led by central government, and there needs 281 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 3: to be buying from everybody. I think it's quite clear 282 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,719 Speaker 3: from what we've heard in the media, particularly this week, 283 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: that this situation is untenable. It is untenable. Any bite 284 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: is not okay. Need to be able to actually put 285 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: some evidence based intervention measures them that are early to 286 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: prevent these treasudies from occurring. 287 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Anya, Thank you very. 288 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: Much for having me. 289 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 290 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 291 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 292 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is 293 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 294 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page 295 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts, 296 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.