Speaker 1: Kyoder and welcome to Shared Lunch, brought to you by Chairsa's.
Speaker 1: My name's Sonia Williams, and I'm one of the co
Speaker 1: founders and co CEOs at chairs EA's and we're on
Speaker 1: a mission to create financial empowerment for everyone, which is
Speaker 1: a big part of why we do these conversations. It's
Speaker 1: a chance to pick behind the curtain of what's going
Speaker 1: on in our world today. We're speaking to Labour's finance
Speaker 1: spokesperson Barbara Edmonds.
Speaker 2: The politics is the hard stuff to be friend. Ultimately
Speaker 2: you break it down. It's a Greek word. It's about people.
Speaker 1: So who is Barbara Edmonds?
Speaker 2: I was brought up in a family that didn't have
Speaker 2: much circumstances happened like my mom passed away when I
Speaker 2: was four. Dad was a widower with four children under
Speaker 2: the ages of eleven.
Speaker 1: What's your vision for the future of Malta.
Speaker 2: And that's a big question, I mean, and I know
Speaker 2: it's a big question.
Speaker 1: Before we get started, here's some important information.
Speaker 3: Investing involves the risk you might lose the money you
Speaker 3: start with. We reckon in talking to a licensed financial advisor.
Speaker 3: We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to
Speaker 3: invest everything you're about to see and here is current
Speaker 3: at the time of recording.
Speaker 1: Well, welcome Barbra, Thanksanks having here.
Speaker 2: Ton of for lover. If you're quite honest, thank you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well we stoke that you're here. So well,
Speaker 1: first we'll talk about you. You've experienced a lot in life.
Speaker 1: You've dabbled in physiotherapy and insurance before completing joint law
Speaker 1: and arts degrees. You're a parent of eight children, keep
Speaker 1: me busy, and we're a public servant before becoming MP
Speaker 1: of the Mana electorate in twenty twenty. Is there anything
Speaker 1: else you'd like to add or well done?
Speaker 2: Good good, good work, you know, staff for the researcher.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I've had a varied life before coming into politics,
Speaker 2: and if I'm really fair, actually having that varied life
Speaker 2: and different experiences just makes you a bit more I think,
Speaker 2: centered and grounded in what you want to achieve while
Speaker 2: you're there here and now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now you are a politician. What does that mean?
Speaker 2: The politics is the hard stuff to me, Frank, I
Speaker 2: find that for me politics ultimately and this is the
Speaker 2: geeker me you break it down. It's a Greek word.
Speaker 2: It's about people. And if I look through a lot
Speaker 2: of the commentary that I do, whether it's on a
Speaker 2: podcast or whether it's a media interview, or it's in
Speaker 2: the way that I do policy decisions, Ultimately I'm looking
Speaker 2: through that sort of decision and thinking about what's the
Speaker 2: impact on people, who are the winners, who are the losers,
Speaker 2: where are the unintended consequences as part of that decision making.
Speaker 2: So politics in some ways comes easier to me because
Speaker 2: I always look through things about the people lens. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, that's sort of debating adversarial side. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to hit my straps on.
Speaker 1: It because that's a big part of it too.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's massive. It's massive. And the great thing is,
Speaker 2: for the most part in New Zealand, we don't take
Speaker 2: it personally, where you know, we're having a debate of
Speaker 2: ideas and having a debate of decisions as opposed to
Speaker 2: attacking one another as politicians. I think if we can
Speaker 2: keep it that way in New Zealand, then we're going
Speaker 2: to be Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, and we you know, we're all for
Speaker 1: creating empowerment and that's part of you know, part of
Speaker 1: that is taking control of your financial future yourself. And
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to politicians, and you know,
Speaker 1: we live in a democracy, and so I think learning
Speaker 1: you know from you, like, how do politicians shape the
Speaker 1: lives of Kiwi?
Speaker 2: Every way, every shape and form, every decision, whether it's
Speaker 2: going to impact on a person straight away or whether
Speaker 2: it's later on down the line, every decision that policy makers,
Speaker 2: not just the politicians who are in government, but also
Speaker 2: like for example, my role is opposition to highlight perhaps
Speaker 2: where there's errors or where things need to be a
Speaker 2: bit further, be pushed a bit further. We impact everyday lives,
Speaker 2: just the differences though for those in the general public
Speaker 2: they might not think that it affects their everyday lives,
Speaker 2: but ultimately the money you get in your hand at
Speaker 2: the end of the week, you know, with your pay packet,
Speaker 2: that's been impacted by politicians' decisions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what tools do you have to work with
Speaker 1: to shape those decisions?
Speaker 2: Some life experience. I was brought up in a family
Speaker 2: that didn't have much and it was very much because
Speaker 2: circumstances happened, like my mom passed away when I was four.
Speaker 2: Dad was a widower with four children. Under the ages
Speaker 2: of eleven at the age of forty, you know, and
Speaker 2: Mum was thirty five when she died. So growing up
Speaker 2: my father was an amazing man and loved my dad
Speaker 2: even when he brings me at random times. Learnt that
Speaker 2: sometimes money isn't necessarily an abundance, but you don't have
Speaker 2: with money, you can have with time. So my father
Speaker 2: taught me a whole thing a lot around community service. Because,
Speaker 2: for example, my dad sent us to really great schools
Speaker 2: on Awklands North Shore. They weren't cheap schools, they were integrated,
Speaker 2: they were Catholic schools. My dad was paying off our
Speaker 2: school fees for ten years after I had finished. He
Speaker 2: had struck that deal with the school to pay off
Speaker 2: the school fees because his wider purpose was making sure
Speaker 2: that we had a good education despite what had happened
Speaker 2: to mum passing away. But what my dad didn't have
Speaker 2: in money, he gave in time. So he was that dad,
Speaker 2: you know. Eventually on the board of trustees. He was
Speaker 2: the father that the school went to when they were
Speaker 2: having problems with Pacific families and children. My dad would
Speaker 2: advise them on that. He's also the one driving the
Speaker 2: school van going to pick up goods and stuff and
Speaker 2: fruit and veggies from all the different suppliers to sell
Speaker 2: at the school fair. So I learned really quickly that
Speaker 2: sometimes money isn't everything because you don't have much, but
Speaker 2: actually what you have in abundance of is your time
Speaker 2: and being really purposeful with that time.
Speaker 1: And so when you think of what life's like for Kiwi, now, Howard,
Speaker 1: what are you seeing around people in their financial situation?
Speaker 2: Really tough? I am seeing coming through my office every
Speaker 2: day in Pottydoer, so I have an electro office and
Speaker 2: Pottydoer one of my two officers. I am hearing people
Speaker 2: like I was at netball on Saturday and a couple
Speaker 2: of people said to me, like they've never experienced it
Speaker 2: this tough. It is really hard for a group of
Speaker 2: people out there who are struggling that despite being working
Speaker 2: or working or having one or two jobs, sometimes three,
Speaker 2: that they're struggling just to make ends meet. So we've
Speaker 2: just had recent inflation figures come out and you can
Speaker 2: see where that problem is is because when inflation is
Speaker 2: high on food, on rates, on insurance, on energy, those
Speaker 2: are the core basics for what any family or any
Speaker 2: person needs to live a life. So it's really really
Speaker 2: tough out there.
Speaker 1: What do you think that we can be doing better?
Speaker 2: When I speak to businesses in particular, I'm asking them
Speaker 2: to think about how they give back. A lot of
Speaker 2: them know they work on a social license and a
Speaker 2: lot of them are doing some great programs to support
Speaker 2: community organizations. I believe as the role of government at
Speaker 2: a time when the economic cycle is on a low,
Speaker 2: so as the private sector pulls back, that's when the
Speaker 2: public sector pushes forward. So that's the timing of investment
Speaker 2: I think is really important right now. But we're seeing
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of kiwis, you know, a planeload a
Speaker 2: day leaving New Zealand because they think that the grass
Speaker 2: is green, are somewhere else, And to be fair to them,
Speaker 2: yes they will get better wages in Australia, but that's
Speaker 2: not what we want. The concern for me is that
Speaker 2: who is leaving and we're starting to see that it's
Speaker 2: really that workforce is starting to move with their feet.
Speaker 2: And my concern is that whenever labor decides to whenever
Speaker 2: we win and we take over the books, is we're
Speaker 2: going to have to rebuild some of that capability that
Speaker 2: we are losing, particularly for example, in the infrastructure and
Speaker 2: construction space, where there's been a huge loss of jobs
Speaker 2: or roles. So it's a big piece of work that
Speaker 2: we have to be mindful of. But also if we're
Speaker 2: not connected to our communities, we have no idea as politicians,
Speaker 2: and really we shouldn't be in that space if we're
Speaker 2: not connected to the communities and the people that we're serving.
Speaker 2: So the broad brush cut right across all agencies is
Speaker 2: my view, not a prudent approach. When you're, for example,
Speaker 2: a business and you know if times are tough and
Speaker 2: you want to cut back spending, you don't necessarily cut
Speaker 2: back across units. You think, actually, if I put a
Speaker 2: bit more of my money in this unit, it means
Speaker 2: I can produce a bit more goods because I know
Speaker 2: that that element of my business is doing really well
Speaker 2: or is returning better than what other elements of my
Speaker 2: business are. So the broadbush just cut everything, I think
Speaker 2: was very cruel. Where the government should focus on is one,
Speaker 2: services to community. We know people are doing it tough,
Speaker 2: so removing areas that make it easier for people to
Speaker 2: either get to work, get their kids to school, make
Speaker 2: them healthier, be being able to access prescription fees, etc.
Speaker 2: Those are the areas that I would keep in if
Speaker 2: I was the Minister of Finance, because I know that
Speaker 2: it has a return to the community in which a
Speaker 2: service area where I wouldn't have done though, is taken
Speaker 2: money from one area and then put it in areas
Speaker 2: where there is less productive activity, for example gas subsidies
Speaker 2: or putting it through a tax break for tobacco companies
Speaker 2: for e cigarettes. So cuts have not been great because
Speaker 2: they've been quite blunt, they've been quite cruel, and they
Speaker 2: haven't been considered because as much as the government has
Speaker 2: said it's not going to cut back on frontline services,
Speaker 2: that's so not what we're hearing. And when you see
Speaker 2: their social issues such as growing homelessness, jobs being lost.
Speaker 2: In the infrastructure specter a sector, those are the areas
Speaker 2: that you want to keep investing in, which is continuing
Speaker 2: to build houses, continuing to invest in infrastructure projects because
Speaker 2: that has a longer first, longer term return, but second
Speaker 2: it keeps the economy ticking over because there's certainty for
Speaker 2: these big you know, multimillion dollar you know sometimes billion
Speaker 2: dollar projects, which means that the money is still in
Speaker 2: the economy from my perspective, the cuts have been cruel.
Speaker 2: They haven't been considered enough. And if Labor comes in again,
Speaker 2: it's about looking at everything on the table, not stopping
Speaker 2: and starting infrastructure projects like we've seen in the last
Speaker 2: eighteen months. And it's about our community, our services to community.
Speaker 2: Where do we need to strengthen those areas in order
Speaker 2: to able to have a more functioning society because everybody
Speaker 2: is being looked after.
Speaker 1: And so in your time in Parliament you're an advisor
Speaker 1: and you've worked under both the National and the Labor Party,
Speaker 1: so you've seen different views. And now you're not only
Speaker 1: the Finance in Economy spokesposting for Labor, but you've now
Speaker 1: taken on a new portfolio, savings and investing. Why was
Speaker 1: that role created and can you tell us a bit
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: It's really a good sign post for where our focuses
Speaker 2: that we will take to the next election. Savings an investment.
Speaker 2: We know that some of the best policies that that
Speaker 2: has survived governments as they come and go. With some
Speaker 2: of Labour's policies such as care we Saber the Superfund,
Speaker 2: So for us we know with Kiwi Saber there is
Speaker 2: some unfinished business. There are some areas that we want
Speaker 2: to really look at in relation to how do we
Speaker 2: increase the uptake of kei we saber, how do we
Speaker 2: support both employers and employees to contribute a bit more.
Speaker 2: Where is the iniquity in ki we saber? And it's
Speaker 2: the same with investment again, being able to have income
Speaker 2: that's of a sufficient level that you can actually choose
Speaker 2: to invest. That's a really important part of what Labour
Speaker 2: wants to offer in the next election.
Speaker 1: So we started chairs eas to try and create more
Speaker 1: opportunities for key we to grow their wealth outside but
Speaker 1: also alongside property. What's your view on how that's playing
Speaker 1: out or how that plays out for people being able
Speaker 1: to invest in different things.
Speaker 2: Thank you as as a person who grew up thinking
Speaker 2: that owning your own home is the only way to
Speaker 2: wealth or working your way to wealth was the only way.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much because it provides an opportunity for
Speaker 2: and I'd say my children who actually have a Chezy's account,
Speaker 2: for my children to do access something that doesn't isn't
Speaker 2: just this big beast of a trading thing that happens
Speaker 2: on Wall Street or you know, down the road here
Speaker 2: in Wellington at our stock market. It gives choices and
Speaker 2: that you don't just have to invest in land. You know,
Speaker 2: when I speak to the index, I speak to the
Speaker 2: indid X, they talk about the returns through equities as
Speaker 2: just as the returns are just as good as land
Speaker 2: return but it's not that accessible. And so Chezy's has
Speaker 2: definitely opened up the opportunity for anybody and everybody to
Speaker 2: be able to access a market which probably traditionally was
Speaker 2: inaccessible to everybody. So yeah, huge he to you all
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 1: Thank you. How do you see kind of money flowing
Speaker 1: into those businesses?
Speaker 2: It's so important because it all so there's an issue
Speaker 2: with New Zealand and the way that we invest in
Speaker 2: land and that there is an it's almost an automatic
Speaker 2: like land is going to give you the return. But
Speaker 2: as a result, it means that our economy is very
Speaker 2: much based off people investing in what is a less
Speaker 2: productive part of the economy, whereas if we're investing in
Speaker 2: shares or in equities or in you know, basically the
Speaker 2: capital that businesses will be able to access because people
Speaker 2: are backing them, it means they can grow more jobs,
Speaker 2: they can do more things, they can create more widgets
Speaker 2: or innovate more so that they call it. There's a
Speaker 2: technical word for it, but basically that turning of the
Speaker 2: mind to thinking I don't just have to invest in land.
Speaker 2: I can have another option to invest and it's easy
Speaker 2: to invest in that. That is a great mindset for
Speaker 2: New Zealand future investors will investors now to have and
Speaker 2: it's a mindset that through a platform like Chasis, all
Speaker 2: through platforms that allow for crowdsourcing or crowdfunding, it allows
Speaker 2: people to have easier access to it.
Speaker 1: And so you've already been the Minister for Economic Development
Speaker 1: and Associate Minister of Finance, but not for long though.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like you got enough time to sink
Speaker 1: your teeth into it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely not want to do so. I was a
Speaker 2: minister my first term, so I got it in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty and then in twenty twenty three, just under our
Speaker 2: durn step down and Chris Hipkins was nominated through our
Speaker 2: party to be the leader, he came Prime Minister. I
Speaker 2: was a minister for ten months. So within that ten
Speaker 2: months I had nine portfolios, so drop some, pick some up,
Speaker 2: you know, and then others I carried through. Definitely not
Speaker 2: enough time at that stage of an electoral cycle. Your
Speaker 2: job there is just to make sure that the pathways
Speaker 2: that has been decided probably about eighteen months beforehand is
Speaker 2: you know, continuing. So not enough time and I'm hoping
Speaker 2: the next time I get it and We'll have plenty
Speaker 2: of time to do the things that I want to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you are in the running to be the
Speaker 1: Finance minister at the next election. What would a Barbara
Speaker 1: Edmunds economic plan look like?
Speaker 2: And Barbara Edmunds economic plan would probably look at some
Speaker 2: key sectors in the economy, think about where is New
Speaker 2: Zealand's competitive advantage. If it requires us putting something on
Speaker 2: a boat or on a plane, then we've lost that
Speaker 2: advantage given where we are geographically. And there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of commentary around why New Zealand's productivity is low.
Speaker 2: And my very first speech as the Finance spokesperson seems
Speaker 2: like ages ago, but it was just last year. Beginning
Speaker 2: of last year, I talked about productivity will be our focus,
Speaker 2: not just on the productive side, thinking where are our
Speaker 2: competitive advantage areas, but also we know energy is huge.
Speaker 2: Energy is basically underpins any of that productive sector. We
Speaker 2: don't have sufficient supply of energy, then we get what's
Speaker 2: happened in the last year with factories closing down. The
Speaker 2: other major focus for me is the human capability of that.
Speaker 2: What are the skill sets that we need for jobs
Speaker 2: of now, for jobs of the future, and what's coming
Speaker 2: towards us, whether it's AI, whether it's other technology changes,
Speaker 2: whether it's geopolitical changes. That ensures that we have a
Speaker 2: workforce that is able to build, develop and create the
Speaker 2: society we want to thrive here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Well, when you talk about competitive advantage of New Zealand,
Speaker 1: you know, what are the things that are popping up
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: Renewable energy. We clearly have high sources of renewable energy.
Speaker 2: There's still a percentage there that will need to work
Speaker 2: through and the transition through that. There's also the really
Speaker 2: great thing about New Zealand and I believe it's our
Speaker 2: superpower to the world and that's our marty economy. The
Speaker 2: fact that our MARDI businesses here in New Zealand is
Speaker 2: the fastest growing sector. I think we need to unlock
Speaker 2: some of the issues there to allow them to access
Speaker 2: their asset base. So, for example, to today, Fenoa is
Speaker 2: an area that we're keeping a close eye where the
Speaker 2: government looks too to be able to unlock Mardi Land
Speaker 2: so it can be used to its potential. The other
Speaker 2: major issue, and which is why I'm so glad that
Speaker 2: Chippy made it or Chris Sipkins made it a portfolio,
Speaker 2: is the creative economy. The creative economy is not just
Speaker 2: the things that make us feel good and the social
Speaker 2: cohesion benefits that come with that. It's also the things
Speaker 2: that Keywis are so good about good at doing, which
Speaker 2: is the dreaming and then the innovating to develop it,
Speaker 2: to make it a thing, to be able to make
Speaker 2: things easier for us. So the creative economy does include AI,
Speaker 2: It does include research and development, it does include science
Speaker 2: and innovation. But then it also includes the gaming sector,
Speaker 2: which we've seen you through a little bit of support
Speaker 2: previously in twenty twenty three, they have grown into quite
Speaker 2: a competitive sector. So those are some of the key
Speaker 2: competitive advantages that we're actively looking at for policies in
Speaker 2: those spaces.
Speaker 1: And then on AI, like, what are you saying as
Speaker 1: some of the opportunities for alto are in that.
Speaker 2: I don't know about. Most people buy use AI every day,
Speaker 2: and when you're in opposition and you have low resources.
Speaker 2: AI is a great tool because it's always like another
Speaker 2: person that's helping you formulate the structure of ideas. And
Speaker 2: then you do need the human element to make sure
Speaker 2: that it's been quality reviewed, that it's you know, the
Speaker 2: references that it brings up are actually accurate or not.
Speaker 2: And so you do need to have that human at
Speaker 2: the end of that assessment period. But AI has huge
Speaker 2: opportunities for us both here, I mean in countries around
Speaker 2: the world. Corporates are already using it. It's about making
Speaker 2: sure that we bring everyone on that AI journey because
Speaker 2: we already have a digital divide here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2: And if you haven't spoken to edit or La f Aili,
Speaker 2: she is New Zealander Young New Zealander of the Year.
Speaker 2: She's been working in the last couple of year years
Speaker 2: around trying to bring together that digital divide, particularly for
Speaker 2: Pacific people. But we have a large group of people
Speaker 2: who are being left behind on the digital space. We
Speaker 2: need to bring them with it, and we also need
Speaker 2: to bring AI with it. It also provides us an
Speaker 2: opportunity to think about what are the jobs of the future.
Speaker 2: As AI starts to. You know, some people will say,
Speaker 2: we'll start to take some jobs. I'm thinking about if
Speaker 2: I was a law graduate, you know, whether I'd still
Speaker 2: have a job. But we have to think about what
Speaker 2: actually a law graduate might not have to do all
Speaker 2: the research that's involved in the due diligence, but actually
Speaker 2: the law graduates their job now is to do the
Speaker 2: quality assurance from it. So it does. There is definite
Speaker 2: opportunities in AI, but we need to make sure that
Speaker 2: everybody has access to those opportunities too.
Speaker 1: Another on the technical side, we see crypto, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously being talked about a lot. How does that affect
Speaker 1: your future thinking or do you think about that?
Speaker 2: No matter how I personally feel about crypto or how
Speaker 2: other people may be personally feel about crypto, it's here
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, I've had a lot of
Speaker 2: conversations over the last couple of years, and there's a
Speaker 2: lot of skepticism around cryptocurrencies from sort of more traditional areas.
Speaker 2: The thing that makes me wake up though, to the
Speaker 2: role of cryptocurrency is that we have the president of
Speaker 2: the first world talking about cryptocurrency and whether that's for
Speaker 2: their benefit or not, and also putting it through legislation
Speaker 2: in their legislature in America, but also in trade deals
Speaker 2: there is references to crypto currency. I think there needs
Speaker 2: to be a greater understanding that Yes, okay, if you
Speaker 2: believe it's speculatory, that's that's your gig. But don't let
Speaker 2: that be a barrier to understanding crypto and what are
Speaker 2: the regulatory settings for crypto because I think of lawmakers
Speaker 2: just push it aside as that's just a speculator. While
Speaker 2: back in the late eighteen hundreds, so was land was speculatory,
Speaker 2: so was shares speculatory. You know, there's always a speculative
Speaker 2: market for investment in assets. But ultimately, as decision makers,
Speaker 2: you need to probably take a serious look that if
Speaker 2: the president of the first world is taking it seriously,
Speaker 2: then our settings right here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So keeping an eye to the future, you know,
Speaker 1: we are here to help people set themselves up for
Speaker 1: there now but also their future retirement features in a
Speaker 1: lot of what we're helping people on the journey too.
Speaker 1: You've been quite vocal about the changes on the Kei
Speaker 1: saver and the budget. What are your thoughts on raising
Speaker 1: the minimum contribution and the employer contribution.
Speaker 2: We are for raising the contribution by both employers and employees.
Speaker 2: But what you need to do, as you've seen it,
Speaker 2: as we've seen in Australia, is it needs to be
Speaker 2: a very clear pathway and not all at once. And
Speaker 2: I'm really mindful that right now it is tough for
Speaker 2: both employers and employees to be able to save for
Speaker 2: their retirement. So when we come out with our que
Speaker 2: We Saber policy as we go to the election, it'll
Speaker 2: be quite clearly flagging as to Okay, we do believe
Speaker 2: contributions need to go up and we think perhaps that
Speaker 2: this is the best way forward by this time, by
Speaker 2: this amount over this period. But it's quite clear what
Speaker 2: we've learned from Australia is having it clearly signposted. It
Speaker 2: means that everybody has a bit of certainty and a
Speaker 2: bit of planning that they can do both as a
Speaker 2: business and both as an employee. Because most people or
Speaker 2: some people will know, I'm a late comer to q
Speaker 2: We Saver, I'm a late comer to ki We Saver
Speaker 2: because we just didn't have the money to invest in
Speaker 2: my savings for retirement. And the reason being is because
Speaker 2: we want a security of tenure of a house. So
Speaker 2: for us, the ability to buy our first home was
Speaker 2: more important than saving for the retirement position as a family,
Speaker 2: And I say as a family, for me to be
Speaker 2: able to start saving for that retirement, but I will
Speaker 2: also have a home. And for a lot of people,
Speaker 2: that ability to have savings plus a home is diminishing
Speaker 2: over time because home ownership rates are diminishing over time.
Speaker 2: So I think being really clear when you go to
Speaker 2: do your personal savings or investment is what is it for?
Speaker 2: There are no quick shortcuts to this. There's a long
Speaker 2: term purpose to it and being able to make sure
Speaker 2: that you keep checking in like is this the investment
Speaker 2: that I want? And is this give me the returns
Speaker 2: that I want? And does this meet the initial purpose
Speaker 2: as to why I invested in this asset.
Speaker 1: With your Kei Savor, you can withdraw for your first home.
Speaker 1: And you talked about, you know, whether your decision was
Speaker 1: is it for my retirement? Is it for a home?
Speaker 1: You know what what's your view on that?
Speaker 2: So I think that's important that qwis be able to
Speaker 2: access it to get their first time or to help
Speaker 2: contribute towards their first home. I have been in ke
Speaker 2: we save long enough to be able to build up
Speaker 2: an amount that's actually going to be able to be
Speaker 2: contributed to them buying their first home. Ultimately, that's a
Speaker 2: policy which we've kept in since you know, came in
Speaker 2: under a previous government. We've kept it going as well.
Speaker 2: Where my concern would be is that if you start
Speaker 2: to open up for first home withdrawals, if you start
Speaker 2: to open it up for other things, So for example,
Speaker 2: if they start to open it up for business purposes,
Speaker 2: you know, or to buy a farm, those of that
Speaker 2: starts to take away from what q we Saver was
Speaker 2: intended to be the first home. For example, again, the
Speaker 2: Retirement Commissioner did a review in twenty twenty two which
Speaker 2: showed that people's home ownership rates are starting to reduce.
Speaker 2: When I think about my retirement, I've got a home,
Speaker 2: I've got q WE Savor probably would probably do a
Speaker 2: couple more investments, you know, to be a bit more
Speaker 2: to make sure I've just got enough enough for it.
Speaker 2: But ultimately that ability to buy your first time is
Speaker 2: really important because it can be part of your fuller
Speaker 2: retirement savings package.
Speaker 1: We are keep we Save a provider, and we did
Speaker 1: some research around people and contributions. And I think you know,
Speaker 1: what you said completely lines up to what we saw
Speaker 1: as well that people were happy to was seventy eight
Speaker 1: percent actually said that they were support are raising contributions
Speaker 1: from their day to day you know, money they're taking
Speaker 1: home now for that future. And you've already talked about
Speaker 1: time through this, and I think money and time there
Speaker 1: is that relationship there where even if you start small
Speaker 1: or with small amounts, over time, time is your friend
Speaker 1: when it comes to money as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially for retirement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. So what's your current read on how key
Speaker 1: we save is going for New Zealanders?
Speaker 2: Could be better, absolutely could be better, But I'm also
Speaker 2: very cognizant we're in a downturn at the moment and
Speaker 2: it is hard on people. And like I said, like
Speaker 2: I am a later adopted, we save because I knew
Speaker 2: how hard it was. You know, we had eight dollars
Speaker 2: in the hand after everything was paid for, and if
Speaker 2: it meant that we could actually buy our first time
Speaker 2: and say for our first time, that was the priority
Speaker 2: because we needed that security of tenure. So I totally
Speaker 2: understand why it's hard for people to save. But ultimately,
Speaker 2: as governments, if we can clearly signpost when increases may
Speaker 2: happen and over a certain period of time. It gives
Speaker 2: people time to prepare. It also gives governments time to
Speaker 2: think about, Okay, the Reserve Bank, the Treasury have forecasted
Speaker 2: this for the next forecast period, when is the right
Speaker 2: time to actually start implementing those increases and by how much?
Speaker 2: You know, it could be zero point five, it could
Speaker 2: be a percent, or you could do what Australia did
Speaker 2: in sort of over a ten year period it started
Speaker 2: to increase considerably. The other element that we are very
Speaker 2: cognizant of, particularly in the labor party, is that ke
Speaker 2: we saver is starting to become a part of a
Speaker 2: total rem package remuneration package. So if we're going to
Speaker 2: be increasing employer contributions, ultimately that's actually coming out of
Speaker 2: the pay of the employee. So they're say, for example,
Speaker 2: just hypothetically it's at four percent, which it is for
Speaker 2: some some may choose three percent. If we say, are
Speaker 2: we going to increase it to five percent next year, well,
Speaker 2: actually some employees that's ultimately ten percent, because the way
Speaker 2: that their contract has been written is they're actually contributing
Speaker 2: it as part of their pay. So those are some
Speaker 2: of the other elements that we need to consider as well.
Speaker 2: What's the interplay between total remuneration packages. Can we say
Speaker 2: contribution increases the period in which we look to increase it,
Speaker 2: but then also the element of who's missing out and why,
Speaker 2: like the over sixty five year olds because they don't
Speaker 2: you know, the employer might not have to contribute. What
Speaker 2: about the mothers who've had to go on maternity You know,
Speaker 2: there are some really amazing employers who actually continue can
Speaker 2: contribute while they're on maternity leave. So those are the
Speaker 2: elements we need to look at as those equity elements
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: And we've talked about that the Australian contributions into their
Speaker 1: super and I think it's sitting in around twelve or
Speaker 1: over twelve percent at the moment. And what's your view
Speaker 1: on how we may look to like do you have
Speaker 1: figures in your mind and we see our contribution rates
Speaker 1: needing to get to to support people in their retirement.
Speaker 2: Everybody will need a different amount right for their retirement
Speaker 2: depending on the lifestyle that they want to live when
Speaker 2: they eventually decide to finish work or finish their business
Speaker 2: or being a business owner. Some of the major benefits
Speaker 2: for Australia not just some of their higher retirement savings.
Speaker 2: It's actually it's created a deep pool of capital that
Speaker 2: can be accessed for other areas within the Australian economy.
Speaker 2: So for us as coming into the way that we
Speaker 2: think about this policy is if we grow deeper pools
Speaker 2: of funds or capital within the country, whether that's through
Speaker 2: key WE Saver or you know, thank goodness for Sir
Speaker 2: Michael Cullen and Helen Clark for the super fund. That
Speaker 2: means that there's a bit more money in there to
Speaker 2: be able to invest in areas that we need to
Speaker 2: be invested in. It also gives governments different leavers as
Speaker 2: well to be able to push and pool on ultimately
Speaker 2: greater savings. Is New Zealand is good for us. So
Speaker 2: with whether it's key WE say, where it's super funds,
Speaker 2: where it's a sec whether it's key WE Saber providers
Speaker 2: in the funds that they hold as well, that's all
Speaker 2: makes it a better thing for New Zealand. It's just
Speaker 2: a question of how much more do we need.
Speaker 1: Can you envisage a future where superannuation is means tested.
Speaker 2: I'm not under my watch and I really I say that,
Speaker 2: you know, quite in a relaxed way, but also in
Speaker 2: a way that I am an evidence and data person
Speaker 2: and when I read the information from the retirement commissioner
Speaker 2: commissioner around means testing, there's going to be a line
Speaker 2: in the sand that's gonna hurt someone. So we need
Speaker 2: to look at the retirement settings as a whole, not
Speaker 2: just at income testing and not just at increasing the age,
Speaker 2: but how do we increase can we save savings? How
Speaker 2: do we ensure that the super fund is working as
Speaker 2: it's intended to and actually it isn't working as intended
Speaker 2: to because it's actually getting great returns and number one
Speaker 2: in the world for pension funds. But making sure we
Speaker 2: look at the full retirement system and that includes the
Speaker 2: family home because most people if they buy the you know,
Speaker 2: I think about a lot of the pensions. I know
Speaker 2: in my area, they have their family home. When they
Speaker 2: need to go to a retirement village, they sail down
Speaker 2: that house and they move into a retirement village. So
Speaker 2: the retirement village setting as well as part of that
Speaker 2: whole retirement scheme and settings in New Zealand, So look
Speaker 2: at it as a whole not just as different elements
Speaker 2: of it, because they all work together very carefully, and
Speaker 2: if you pull in one place then there could be
Speaker 2: unintended consequences somewhere else. So it's a conversation that we
Speaker 2: need to have more generally and more about open about
Speaker 2: not just in come testing, not just about raising the age,
Speaker 2: but about the whole settings for retirement in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: So what's your vision for the future of are.
Speaker 2: That's a big question. I mean, and I know it's
Speaker 2: a big question. And I hear that every time I
Speaker 2: have like a business dinner or a lunch or where
Speaker 2: I get to spend time with some amazing businesses that
Speaker 2: we in quy companies you have in New Zealand. Is
Speaker 2: that you know what's the vision, and my vision will
Speaker 2: be different to your vision. But ultimately, again if I
Speaker 2: go back to where my first principles laid, it's a
Speaker 2: New Zealand where there's an opportunity for everybody. That's why
Speaker 2: I got into politics because I realized in my community
Speaker 2: there were opportunities that my children had that other children
Speaker 2: didn't have. So making sure there is opportunities, making sure
Speaker 2: that you can if you want to live here, man,
Speaker 2: that you can have your own home, or that you
Speaker 2: have a security of tenure that you don't feel like
Speaker 2: you're going to be kicked out the next week, where
Speaker 2: you can lay down your routs in a community that
Speaker 2: you choose, that where you want to send your kids to,
Speaker 2: where you want to be able to access healthcare. So
Speaker 2: it's a big question and for me, I can't yet
Speaker 2: quite articulate what the vision is for New Zealand, but
Speaker 2: I think about it as opportunities. This is an amazing country.
Speaker 2: We have some amazing people doing such awesome things. But
Speaker 2: it's just making sure that everybody has an opportunity, whether
Speaker 2: you're the factory cleaner on the factory floor or whether
Speaker 2: you're the retiree that wants to just see their grandchildren
Speaker 2: come visit them. That's the New Zealand I remember growing
Speaker 2: up and where everybody had a chance, and that's the
Speaker 2: New Zealand, which when we come to the election, we
Speaker 2: want to make sure that everybody has that opportunity as
Speaker 2: well to be who they want to be and to
Speaker 2: be able to build their roots, grow their community and
Speaker 2: be that special place at the bottom of the world
Speaker 2: where we know that everybody wants to move to when
Speaker 2: things go bad, but also hold dear to us what
Speaker 2: makes us New Zealanders.
Speaker 1: Thanks Haanks for joining us, Barbara, we've covered a lot
Speaker 1: of ground.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots always a good space though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and thanks everyone for tuning in. You can watch
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