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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalks EDB. The big Names and the big calls

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Speaker 1: on your home of sport. Weekend Sport with Jason Vine,

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Speaker 1: News Talks EDB.

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Speaker 2: Dave Rennie's rugby journey has taken a remarkable turn. Just

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Speaker 2: over three years after being sacked as Wallaby's coach, he

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Speaker 2: has now been appointed head coach of the All Blacks.

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Speaker 2: Dave Rennie dismissed by Rugby Australia in early twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: a decision made while Hamish mcclennan was chair of Rugby Australia.

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Speaker 2: Hamish mcclennan joins US now amos. What was your reaction

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Speaker 2: when you heard that Dave Rennie had this week been

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Speaker 2: appointed new head coach of the All Blacks.

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Speaker 3: I've always thought David was a good coach. I think

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Speaker 3: it's the right decision a David Kirk and as tough

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Speaker 3: as it is and it's such a brutal game and

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Speaker 3: you know, I've had my issues. Was right to cut

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Speaker 3: Razor and I feel sorry for him because he's a

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Speaker 3: good guy and a good coach. But I think when

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Speaker 3: I reflect on the decision. Something had to be done

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Speaker 3: with the Abs and I still know a lot of

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Speaker 3: people in New Zealand rugby and the team wasn't playing

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Speaker 3: to its full potential. And look, he might have had

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Speaker 3: a master plan and it's unfair. And I had a

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Speaker 3: master plan and never got to follow through on it.

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Speaker 3: But you've just got to make calls in life. And

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Speaker 3: I think Dave learned a lot playing with the Wallabies.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a big difference between the psychology of

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Speaker 3: New Zealanders and Australians, and we have a different sporting

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Speaker 3: market here and so you know, in a perverse kind

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Speaker 3: of way, I think this really does help the ads.

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Speaker 3: He never lost the change room and he stated that

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Speaker 3: perfectly when he coached the Wallabies. And I think Raiser

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Speaker 3: Didler's the the change and so you're going to have

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Speaker 3: a very interesting and new dynamic. So I think his

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Speaker 3: challenge will be how do I rally the troops in

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Speaker 3: a very short period of time. And I kind of

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Speaker 3: look at it and think, well, put in the final

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Speaker 3: ast side, which will be spectacular. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 3: a fan of the draw I do, to be honest

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Speaker 3: with you, but I think the game of the tournament

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Speaker 3: will actually be if if the ABS play South Africa

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Speaker 3: in the quarterfinals, And so I think I think David

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Speaker 3: is a better choice. And as I said, he's coaching

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Speaker 3: an international team, and you know, there's there's a big

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Speaker 3: part of me that feels sorry for what happened for

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Speaker 3: him out here. But you know, we all make calls

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Speaker 3: and maybe in a serendipitous, funny way, this is his

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Speaker 3: colleague because New Zealand is different. I know he's got

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Speaker 3: a lot of coaching hands there and he'll get the

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Speaker 3: players will get behind him, and I think he needed

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Speaker 3: to do something. So you know, if I if I

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Speaker 3: was a key we I'd be feeling better about the decision.

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Speaker 2: Do you still stand by the call to replace Dave

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Speaker 2: Rennie with Eddie Jones three years ago?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I do. I mean, you know, the simple fact

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Speaker 3: is that, I mean, any our problems are structural and

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Speaker 3: provincial and I think you know, in Sydney alone, they

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Speaker 3: say it's the most competitive winter sports market. So we've

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Speaker 3: got soccer AFL NRL that are just raiding our players

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Speaker 3: and rugby union and I used to say to our provinces,

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Speaker 3: there's a reason why we haven't won a World Cup

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Speaker 3: or Bloods like we have. We actually, if we could

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Speaker 3: garner the right players could be much more competitive and

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Speaker 3: we'd be winning blood aslos. So I just felt that

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Speaker 3: it was too slow. Our structure hasn't change in one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty years, and Eddie had intimate knowledge of

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Speaker 3: our pathways and the player group and I think and

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Speaker 3: I think he knew that more than Dave, to be

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Speaker 3: honest with you. So you know, he had a little

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Speaker 3: hand in keeping Max Jorgenson in the game as a

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Speaker 3: casing point. He helped with Joseph Sowali. So Mark Alexander,

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Speaker 3: who's the chairman of South African Rugby, so under his

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Speaker 3: watch he's won two World Carbs said that. I mean

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Speaker 3: his view, so not an Australian view, was that Any

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Speaker 3: was one of the best coaches in the world and

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Speaker 3: without him when he was coaching as an assistant coach

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Speaker 3: or a technical coach with the Springboks, he said word

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Speaker 3: for word, they wouldn't have won it without Any. So

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Speaker 3: on paper, you know, when he got sacked by England,

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Speaker 3: he had a seventy four percent win rate versus Dave

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Speaker 3: was thirty eight percent for us and we had a

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Speaker 3: terrible Spring tour, so like I hate making these, you know,

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Speaker 3: or being part of these calls. It was a board

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Speaker 3: decision as well. I mean none ms board decision at

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Speaker 3: RA Yes, I was the chairman, but we debated it

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Speaker 3: a lot and there was a sense that we needed

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Speaker 3: to change it up. And the main reason, ironically for

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Speaker 3: that is that we thought we'd get kicked out of

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Speaker 3: the balls. So whether that was the right or the

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Speaker 3: wrong decision, we we stand by it. And Eddie's got

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Speaker 3: three separate teams to finals of World Cups, so you go,

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Speaker 3: seventy four percent with England after seven years is not

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Speaker 3: a bad track record. And he's got three different three

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Speaker 3: different teams to finals of World Cups, which is pretty impressive.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I don't wish Ill will on anyone.

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Speaker 3: And so I think I think this is the shot

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Speaker 3: in the arm that the kiwis needed, because I was actually,

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Speaker 3: you know, despite what people think, really concerned about how

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Speaker 3: you guys were playing. And I think there was a

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Speaker 3: lack of too much experimentation and a lack of a

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Speaker 3: lack of structure in terms of how you were playing.

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Speaker 3: And I think Dave will do a good job, and

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Speaker 3: I think New Zealand's is very different from Australia. I

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Speaker 3: think we are we're made differently. I think outsiders looking

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Speaker 3: and say you're so close together as countries, you must

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Speaker 3: be the same. I think we think differently, we motivate differently,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not saying either's better or worse. We're just

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Speaker 3: we're like the best of brothers, but we also are different.

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Speaker 3: And it's like children in the family and I you know,

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Speaker 3: we'll say to the day I die, I love I

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Speaker 3: love New Zealanders, but Ozzie's a different and I don't

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Speaker 3: think I don't think Dave really understood that, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think he really tapped into what really motivates us.

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Speaker 3: So I think, I think you'll do a good job,

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Speaker 3: and I think you know, you guys, the clock's ticking.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of Kiwis who live in Australia

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Speaker 3: who will come over to Australia for the World Cup,

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Speaker 3: so you'll have you'll probably have more Kiwi's than Australian's.

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Speaker 3: Bloody watching the games, I think you're into the real shot,

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Speaker 3: but you know it's it's a it's an interesting drawer.

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Speaker 3: I look at the South Africans that in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: they've still got They've got they've got enough enough debt

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Speaker 3: to have two teams that can win the World Cup.

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Speaker 3: In my opinion, you guys don't have as much debt,

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Speaker 3: but you've got more depth, which will benefit Dave and

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Speaker 3: so so I think it's a risk worth taking. But

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Speaker 3: life is full of risks. Sometimes it works out, sometimes

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Speaker 3: it doesn't. But I think he needed to do something.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of your comments I already want to

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Speaker 2: pick up on Hamish. The first is about Dave. Were

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Speaker 2: any not understanding the Australians of the job. Do you

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Speaker 2: think Joe Schmidt understood it better.

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Speaker 3: I've never met Joe, but I suspect he didn't either.

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Speaker 3: I mean he's he's ironically. But the thing is that

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Speaker 3: like Barren Gatlin and others a fabulous coach like I'm

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Speaker 3: not not in any way disregarding them, but you know,

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Speaker 3: to get a team to win what will be what

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Speaker 3: I think eight games now with a home World Cup,

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Speaker 3: you need depth. And I think statistics prove if you've

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Speaker 3: got a some someone from your home country who's the

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Speaker 3: lead coach set statistics shows that that works. So you've

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Speaker 3: got you know, rasci in you know South Africa and

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Speaker 3: you've got both Wick in England and I just think

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Speaker 3: that it does make a different I think, I think

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Speaker 3: I think a different s I should say. I think

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Speaker 3: it just will give everyone, including the players, and gave

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Speaker 3: that extra motivation. And whilst he was brought born in

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Speaker 3: the Cook Islands, I think he'll be able to pull

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Speaker 3: the various sections of your team together better. He was

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Speaker 3: obviously very good at the Chiefs, but it didn't work

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Speaker 3: in Australia. I mean we and say we make we

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Speaker 3: make calls and so you know I paid the price

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Speaker 3: for it. But life goes on, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: think I think he'll do better than Rais. Will that

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Speaker 3: be enough to get him too to beat South Africa

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Speaker 3: or to win the World Cup? Who knows. I think

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Speaker 3: you'll have a lot of fans that will sort of

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Speaker 3: gee your team on, but you're you know, you're running

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Speaker 3: out of time, so you don't have a lot of

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Speaker 3: time to get the team really and I think I

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Speaker 3: think you'll have a tough tour in South Africa. But

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Speaker 3: then again, you know, Joe Shmik got the Wallabies to

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Speaker 3: win at Ellis Park which was phenomenal, So we'll see what.

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Speaker 2: Leads you to think that Raja lost the dressing room.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've heard that from really good sources and it's

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Speaker 3: hard to pin it on any one player, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's really unfair to Asiety, Sada or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: But I just heard that from sources that I trust her,

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Speaker 3: you know, embedded in your system. So I won't out them.

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Speaker 3: But you know that's I think. I think he positioned

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Speaker 3: himself as a culture coach, and I think that's sort

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Speaker 3: of one of the big differences when you look at

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Speaker 3: I think Australians players need more hands on sort of

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Speaker 3: coaching because because I think your players. But by the

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Speaker 3: time I heard a fact, I think this is true,

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Speaker 3: by the time you pull pull on all blacks jersey,

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Speaker 3: you played twice twice the amount of games at that

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Speaker 3: high level than the average Wallaby. And so you know,

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Speaker 3: I want I want the Wallabies to win. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we worked so hard to get that home World Cup

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Speaker 3: and you know they're my team and they always will be.

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Speaker 3: But if you want me to comment about New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: I think times against you. I think you know Dave's

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Speaker 3: a solid choice. There wasn't a lot of choice out there.

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Speaker 3: I think he would have learned a lot because he's

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Speaker 3: competitive at that international level and he knows it's tough.

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Speaker 3: But I think he competitions South Africa and I think

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Speaker 3: RAS has done an amazing job of building depth and

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Speaker 3: I don't think the Abs have got the depth that

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Speaker 3: you used to have.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, I don't think you'll get an argument from

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Speaker 2: anybody about that on the side of the Tasman. If

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Speaker 2: Dave Ronnie does win the World Cup with the All

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Speaker 2: Blacks in eighteen nineteen months from now, do you think

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Speaker 2: you'll look back and think you made the wrong call

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Speaker 2: or of the two things just different in the way

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Speaker 2: that you've outlined. And that Dave Ronnie wasn't the right

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Speaker 2: coach for the Wallabies, that doesn't mean he can't be

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Speaker 2: the right coach for the All Blacks.

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Speaker 3: Well, what I'm actually saying is that he could. He

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Speaker 3: could have been a poor choice for the He could

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Speaker 3: have been the wrong choice. I should say, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to be disrespectful. He could have been the wrong

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Speaker 3: choice or a poor choice for the Wallabies and the

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Speaker 3: right choice for the All Blacks, because I think the

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Speaker 3: psychology and the understanding of the teams, the players in

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Speaker 3: the pathways is different and I think if it's you know,

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Speaker 3: next to being a PM. The head coach of the

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Speaker 3: ADS is hugely prestigious and I think Dave is an

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Speaker 3: authentic good person and so if you read any of

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Speaker 3: my commentary, he was he was a very decent man

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Speaker 3: and I think that's a great starting point for any team.

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Speaker 3: But it was, you know, yes I was chairman, but

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Speaker 3: it was it was a bored decision and everyone agreed

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Speaker 3: that we felt that we need to make a change now.

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Speaker 3: The reality is Australian rugby has been in the doldrums

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Speaker 3: for twenty years and we're trying to fix it. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I said, I look at it and I go,

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Speaker 3: there is a serendipity of this, like you could. I

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Speaker 3: think I think the the All Blacks definitely could pull

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Speaker 3: it off. I think they're up against it against the

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Speaker 3: South Africans. I mean the South Africans were trait were

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Speaker 3: planning for the twenty seven World Cup a week after

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Speaker 3: they returned home from twenty three. So so do I

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Speaker 3: look back on it, I would not have I would

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Speaker 3: not have changed the decision because there was so much

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Speaker 3: tied to us trying to get it right and I

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Speaker 3: think we gave Dave a really fair go. I don't

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Speaker 3: think we were bad people. I don't think other than

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Speaker 3: I mean, Kiwis take great offense to you know, any

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Speaker 3: of their coaches who get set of sacked. But the

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Speaker 3: reality is we're at thirty eight percent. We lost to

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Speaker 3: Italy for the first time ever. There were some calls

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Speaker 3: there that I think, you know, if you asked him,

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Speaker 3: you know, would he have made different would he have

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Speaker 3: made different calls? And so I just can't spend my

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Speaker 3: life looking in the rear a few mirror you know.

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Speaker 3: I just think, hopefully, hopefully, you know, by the time

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Speaker 3: you know all said and done, some people think, you know,

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Speaker 3: I made a good contribution in certain ways. I know

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Speaker 3: a lot of people disagree with certain certain things. But

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Speaker 3: you know, when I took over in twenty twenty, we

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Speaker 3: had no media rite deal, no CEO, and we lost

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Speaker 3: twenty five million dollars. So the very fact that the

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Speaker 3: game's alive and I stepped in and I said, of

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Speaker 3: did my best. And so everyone makes mistakes, but I

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Speaker 3: don't don't. I don't. I don't regret making that call.

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Speaker 3: And it was it was a tough call because we

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Speaker 3: were worried about getting the board, was worried about getting

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Speaker 3: kicked out of the pools, which ironically that's what happened.

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Speaker 3: We got kicked out of the polls. So there you.

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Speaker 2: Go, just a Finnish famoush you mentioned. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: all agree South Africa overwhelming favorite to win it again

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Speaker 2: back end of next year. Who was better placed out

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Speaker 2: of the All Blacks and the Wallabies to challenge them

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Speaker 2: most sternly next year? Oh the AADs, even on Australian soil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, interestingly, the South Africans used to say to me,

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Speaker 3: there was that famous test where Marika we played in

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Speaker 3: Adelaide and Merika Corrabell Betty did that amazing tackle. The

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Speaker 3: South Africans haven't enjoyed a brilliant run in the past

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Speaker 3: in Australia, but they're formidable, especially in World Cups, and

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Speaker 3: so their depth is almost frightening in terms of where

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Speaker 3: they're out at the moment. But you know, I think

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Speaker 3: you've got to kind of look at the data and

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Speaker 3: you go, the abs over a long period of time

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Speaker 3: in big tournaments did very well. You look at Paris,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you guys were it could have you know,

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Speaker 3: there there was one penalty call that could have gone

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Speaker 3: either way. I mean I was sitting with World Rugby

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Speaker 3: people who were going, god, I thought that was a

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Speaker 3: New Zealand penalty, not a South African one. So the

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Speaker 3: margins are so fine, and so I worry that our

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Speaker 3: forwards we don't have enough depth in the forwards. We've

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Speaker 3: got some good players, but you know, they're pretty brutal

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Speaker 3: games and if you get a few injuries, you know,

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Speaker 3: it may make it tough. But I want the Wallabies

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Speaker 3: to beat you and South Africa, so anything can happen.

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Speaker 3: And that's the beauty of where we're at. And then

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, England, up until about six weeks ago,

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Speaker 3: we're looking like they were building momentum, and then the

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Speaker 3: French ship got a monster pack and then populated amongst

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Speaker 3: a lot of those teams and bloody Australians that have

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Speaker 3: left Australian rugby and working. We've got two people playing

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Speaker 3: for Ireland. Emmanuel Mofo, who's seven foot one is from

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Speaker 3: Western Sydney. If you look him up online, he's got

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Speaker 3: a thicker accent than I do. It's bizarre.

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Speaker 2: Alwoyst so interesting chatting to your homis thanks for being

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Speaker 2: so generously the time. Really enjoyed the chat as always,

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Speaker 2: cheers and good no good luck to you too. Hamish mcclennan,

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Speaker 2: their former chair of Rugby Australia. Plenty to react to

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Speaker 2: there if you would like to of eight hundred and

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Speaker 2: eighty ten eighty nine, two ninety two on texts, a

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Speaker 2: lot of good texts coming in as well. Hamish mcclennan said,

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Speaker 2: They're one thing that really caught my attention. He said,

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Speaker 2: David and he didn't fully understand the Australians of the

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Speaker 2: Wallabies job, and that the psychology of New Zealand and

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Speaker 2: Australian rugby players is very different. Is that true? Are

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Speaker 2: key we and Australian sports people quite different? It is true,

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Speaker 2: isn't it? On the whole We are different from Australian

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Speaker 2: sports people when it comes to our attitudes to top

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Speaker 2: level sport. Now neither is right or wrong, but we

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Speaker 2: are different. We often hear, don't we how hard nos

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Speaker 2: Australians are, how driven they are to win regardless of

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Speaker 2: what it takes, and that by comparison, we are perhaps

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Speaker 2: sometimes a little bit too nice. We don't put the

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Speaker 2: foot on the throat. We don't put winning ahead of

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Speaker 2: everything else, and that can sometimes cost us. I hear

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Speaker 2: this a lot with cricket in particular, how hard nosed

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Speaker 2: the Australians are compared to compared to our books. But

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Speaker 2: I'm happy that we're different, very happy. Australia haven't had

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Speaker 2: the Bledisloe Cup since two thousand and three.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to news talks d BE weekends from midday, or follow

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