WEBVTT - Understanding social unity in NZ as Covid-19 hearings air lockdown grievances 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:05.480 Kiyota. 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.880 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:16.120 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The long 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.799 tale of COVID is still being felt for some parts 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.280 of our society. The second stage of the Royal Commission 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.479 into the COVID nineteen response kicked off this week with 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.080 public testimony from business owners and those impacted by vaccine 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.400 mandates and the lengthy lockdowns in Auckland and Northland. It's 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.760 part of the coalition deal between National and both ACT 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:43.400 and ENZ First and has prompted criticism over being overtly 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:48.559 political and spotlighting conspiracy theorists. But with so many in 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.960 the community still focused on the events of twenty twenty 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.280 and twenty twenty one, are we ever going. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:55.760 To just move past it. 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.920 We'll discuss that later with independent political and social commentator 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.120 Grant Duncan, But first on the Front Page News Talks, 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.400 that'd be reporter Emily ansel Is with us to explain 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:14.280 what's been happening with the Royal Commission. Emily, what is 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.760 the point of this second stage of the Royal Commission 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:19.040 of the COVID response. 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:24.160 So this second phase is taking place so that those 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.360 who felt like they hadn't been heard in the first 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.679 could have their say on their experiences. Specifically this phase, 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.720 the Commission's job is to focus on the large lockdown 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.440 in Auckland, the twenty twenty one lockdown and how that 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.440 affected Auckland is but also Northlands, those in White cut 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.440 Or and around the rest of the country. They are 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.600 also looking at the vaccine mandates and the decisions made 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.320 around there and hearing from a variety of people who 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.680 both oppose and praise the vaccine mandates to understand and 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.720 I guess learn from how we responded and what we 0:01:58.800 --> 0:01:59.680 can do next time. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.800 What are the sorts of people we've been hearing from 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:02.240 so far? 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.680 We've heard from a variety lots of leaders and experts 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.720 in their sectors. We've heard from prominent GPS such as 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.720 Brian Betty and Angus Chambers. We've also heard from those 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.720 in the education sectors such as the president of the 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.520 New Zealand Principles Federation, Lean all Tenure, and spokespeople from 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.400 Kaitaia College speaking about their experience. We've heard from business 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.280 leaders in Auckland and Northland. We've heard from Marty, health 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.720 and social group leaders, community leaders from the Pacific community, 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.760 so a real briepth and depth of people from around 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:37.200 all parts of New Zealand society. 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:42.120 Has it been all conspiracy theorists like Labors Chris Hopkins 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.360 is alleged, or mostly just people with some sort of 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.240 issue with the response, I would say it doesn't seem 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:49.359 like there have been a lot of people who are 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.559 overly positive about the experience. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.040 With regard to the conspiracy side of things, I would 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.280 say no, I hadn't heard much in the way of 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:03.440 conspiracy up into today. We're hearing from people who have 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.760 been accused of spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories. But as 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.559 I said, a lot of this week we've heard from experts, 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.399 from prominent leaders and the health and education and business sected, 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:19.240 basically just wanting to share what their experience was like. 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.880 I guess these decisions affected everyone and these were the 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:27.240 groups who felt like their experiences hadn't properly been considered. 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.600 So yesterday, the fourth day of the second phase of 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.960 this inquiry, we saw groups such as Voices for Freedom. 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.880 They were questioned I would say a little harder than 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:43.440 I had seen other groups by commissioners asking them to 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.800 be more direct in their answers, accusing them at least 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.560 once of avoiding the question questions such as do you 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:56.520 see that the government had a right to enforce quite 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.120 drastic actions in a crisis and a health crisis. But 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.840 the Commissioner did say right at the end that although 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.040 he did press them, that is not in any way 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.760 an indication of their stance. They have not made up 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.160 their mind. So they really are trying to emphasize that 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:18.200 they are listening and taking everything into account before they conclude. 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.800 Telling people they have conspiracy theorist views doesn't stop them 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.000 having conspiracy theorist views. And in many cases, as you 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:29.040 discovered on the lawn of. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.560 Parliament, you make them worse. 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.520 Well, you're also giving them a platform, doesn't make them, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:34.599 doesn't make them better. 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:36.600 Is it a platform or is it a place where 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:37.440 they can be heard? 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.960 Well, you know, have you mentioned the protest at Parliament? 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.920 There are people they're hanging nooses in the trees. Do 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.880 you really think that that was their constructive engagement? They're 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:46.680 not a platform for constructive engagement. 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.600 Well, before we saw the nurses, and we don't know 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.359 who put the nurses up, of what they were there for. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.599 They hung them on the first who hung them. They 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:56.000 hang them on the first day they're own, and they 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.240 had names on them. Why was one of them? Who 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.800 are not going to go down and talk to them? 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.359 And you've been listening all week, Emily, in terms of 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.840 the submitters and the submissions that you've heard, are there 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.480 any that's stuck out to you? Have any quite been 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.520 quite emotional or did you learn something that you didn't know? 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.640 Perhaps there have been a few that have been emotional 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.560 for the people speaking. The ones that stand out in 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:28.240 that category would be people speaking about and members of 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.440 the public. They're also members of the public providing video 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.360 testimonies about how they missed out on farewelling their loved ones, 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.320 whether that for some of them that was really important 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.880 culturally the way that usually plays out, and they were 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:48.280 unable to do so. One woman spoke of losing her husband, 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.600 who was suffering with dementia, but he, according to her, 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.880 deteriorated quite quickly after the lockdowns, because she believed it 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.799 was because she was unable to see him as often 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.200 restricted in seeing him. One woman also spoke about losing 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:09.160 her sister, what she says was due to COVID nineteen 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:15.080 vaccine complications, so it's fair to say that the impact 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.400 that all of these measures had on people was pretty drastic, 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:24.520 and the people who were speaking at this inquiry really 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.320 wanted to make that clear. There was another one that 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.360 stood out to me with regards to some MARDI and 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.440 Pacific community leaders speaking about the use of vaccine vouchers 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.840 as an incentive to get people to get vaccinated. One 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.839 person said this in future probably wouldn't be the best 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:52.039 strategy just because it wasn't sustainable, and another woman spoke 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.039 of having to speak to a member of the public 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.600 who came through to get these vouchers to get vaccinated 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.000 three times because he didn't have any food and he 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.599 wanted to get those one hundred dollar food vouchers that 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.239 were being given out. So that was an interesting point 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.160 that kind of stood out to me. The other thing, though, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.320 that stood out to me, was that this hasn't all 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:17.360 been negative. There has been praise of the vaccine mandates 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.520 from people with disabilities who feel that they can now 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.720 be a part of society and that they are safe 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.800 and healthy. People who have compared our response to those 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.480 overseas and the level of deaths at other countries experience. 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:35.160 Other people have praised the government's quick action the lockdowns 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.760 for stopping the spread for vulnerable communities. So it has been, 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.880 from what I've observed, a fairly balanced experience and a 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.720 fairly balanced take on what people went through. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:08:00.160 Thanks for joining us, Emily, no problem. For more on 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:05.040 the ramifications of our continued focus on COVID nineteen, we're 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.600 joined now by commentator Grant Duncan. 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.960 Grant, how has social unity been since COVID? 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.480 It felt like we were pretty united there for a while, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.840 but then it kind of took a wrong turn, didn't 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:21.720 that what changed? 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.440 Well? Look, can I be a little bit contrary for 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.600 a moment with you and suggest that back in twenty 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.600 twenty before the election, things weren't as united as we 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.120 thought they were. Yeah. Sure, the government of the day 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:39.760 had a lot of popular support and trust, particularly mid 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.680 twenty twenty, but it wasn't universal and that was clear 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.760 from a survey that I did, and that particularly on 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.880 the right, there was quite a strong level of agreement 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.439 with the idea that the economic costs of the public 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:58.360 health measures outweighed the benefits of those measures, and so 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.080 that would be a constituents of people, particularly in small 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.520 business and things like this who were directly feeling the 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.880 effect on their businesses, and so I don't entirely agree 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.160 with the idea that New Zealand was a team of 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.880 five million at that time. Yes, I agree, of course 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.880 that the durn led government at that time was getting 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.600 a really strong level of support and they got an 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:27.040 amazing election result fifty percent. But what about the other 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.200 fifty percent? They weren't so happy. It's just that you 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.040 weren't hearing much from them at that. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.079 Time, and what's happening now We're hearing from them now. Hey, 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.720 a lot of people unhappy with the lockdowns are getting 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.559 to have their say at the Royal Commission at the moment. 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.640 We also saw the other week a girl who was 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.640 eleven at the time of the Parliament occupation. She winna 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.560 go ahead, ensued sear Trevet Mallard overplaying baby shark and 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.480 turning the sprinklers on on the protesters. Why does it 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.600 feel like people who were most unhappy and are most 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.800 unhappy still with the way that we went about things 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:00.960 with COVID. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.200 Why can't they quite move on from it? 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.560 Well, I'm not one of those people. I mean, I 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.080 got vaccinated and so forth, But my job is a 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.360 political scientist to try and understand other people's opinions, not 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.760 to impose my own. And you know, I've spoken with 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.400 a lot of people of that kind of opinion. You know, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.680 I've had an ear bashing or two about vaccines and 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.680 so forth, and I've tried my best to understand the 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.360 opinions of people who feel excluded. They don't just feel excluded, 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.480 that actually were excluded. Remember, you know, some of them 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.240 lost their jobs. They couldn't go into cafes and get 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.680 normal service and things like that, and so suddenly it 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.000 wasn't a team of five million anymore. There was a 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.599 radical exclusion of a minority of people. But here's the 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.240 other thing. I think we focused too much attention sometimes 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.120 on that relatively small minority, because what was also going 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.520 on under the surface, and we weren't hearing much about it, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.920 was that people just generally getting worn out and annoyed 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.600 with many of the consequences of the low down. These 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.839 were people who would have been quite moderate, quite compliant, 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:08.040 probably got vaccinated, but when they saw the consequences of 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.120 trying to book online on MiQ or you know, the 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:16.240 consequences for people whom they knew or difficulties getting stuff done, 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.679 traveling and so forth, or the isolation, the loneliness for 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.480 a lot of people, it started to wear them down. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.960 And so I think we shouldn't put all of our attention, 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.640 so to speak, when we're thinking about shift of political 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.640 opinion and social cohesion here on a small minority represented 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.200 by people who protested outside of parliament for a couple 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.560 of weeks in February twenty twenty two, because that doesn't 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.360 fully explain why Labor lost so badly in twenty twenty three. 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.040 The reason, one of the reasons why they lost so 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.600 badly in twenty twenty three was that they lost the 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.640 confidence of quite a large swath of the population who 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.480 weren't necessarily protesting outside of parliament and that kind of thing. 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:01.360 They were probably even vaccinated, but they were just worn 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.360 down by the effects, and quite reasonably so, because there 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.000 were real impacts on people's businesses, their private lives, their 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.040 family lives, and the government. I think that it was 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.000 lacking the leadership at that time to reach out to 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.000 those people and just say, hey, we understand the effect 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:18.880 that this is having. 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.840 Do you reckon if we had a COVID two point 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:27.160 zero now and the government went about the same measures, 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.640 even though it was successful, and we know that we 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.600 were one of the better off countries in the world. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.400 Do you think there would be more people in the 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.840 camp saying actually no, I. 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.400 Thoroughly do think that exactly. And in other words, one 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.160 thing that I think needs to come out of this 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.120 COVID inquiry is recommendations about doing it differently next time, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.560 partly because there's now quite a significantly ingrained level of 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.080 skepticism and a sense of oh no, not that again, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.440 thank you very much. And as I said, not just 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.320 talking about people who were vaccine refuse nicks. I'm also 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.760 talking about people who, to a large extent, we're willing 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.840 to comply with the government's orders. So let's not just 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.040 focus on the conspiracy theorists for a moment and think 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.240 about the broad middle ground of New Zealand opinion. I 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.720 think that they've been through this experience. They know the 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.559 drill now, and they know people are pretty savvy. They 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:25.920 know what works and what doesn't work. They know what 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.400 kinds of risks they're prepared to take if once they 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.959 understand the nature of a pandemic. And I personally think 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.400 that if we had a COVID two point zero. The 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.080 government of the day would need to take quite a 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:45.400 different approach, put much more responsibility on individuals and non firms, 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.800 employers and people like that to take more responsibility for 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:54.000 how they protect themselves and the people around them. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.480 There might have been some differences around who was required 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.760 to get them versus who, you know, just needs to 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:02.839 stay home a bit longer and waited out for people 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.160 like me are able to get them. I think overall, though, 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.200 they did the best they could with information they have, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.960 and if we keep the base of that game and 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.079 just alter it depending on, you know, whatever a new 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.079 disease comes over where, I think we'll keep saving lives 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.640 and we'll keep having a productive workforce because of it. 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.920 We are seeing, though, especially during this inquiry, that the 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.360 conspiracy theorists or the people that are most displeased with 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.800 how we went about things do tend to be the loudest, right, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.240 So we had a point now that we're just letting 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.320 everyone air their thoughts in a public forum, and I 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:40.960 guess hope everyone moves on. 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.120 Well, it is a democracy, and the people who are 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.720 so disgruntled are our fellow citizens, and I don't think 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.600 we should refuse to listen to them. I think they 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.000 should be given a hearing, because sweeping things under the 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.840 carpet in a democracy, the ever works just boilers up 0:14:55.920 --> 0:15:00.000 later on. So it may be a little bit painful 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.480 for some people to have to listen to some of 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.320 those complaints. But unfortunately, I think we should hear them out, 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:10.080 and a sensible commission of inquiry, will you know, explain 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.200 that you know, these are the views of certain people. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.960 They may be minority views, there may be reasons why, 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.680 perhaps some of those views are incorrect, why they don't 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.560 stack up against scientific evidence, et cetera. But that's the 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.440 purpose of a commission of inquiries, to sort the wheek 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.840 from the chaff like that. But it would be worse 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.440 in the long run if those people kept saying, look, 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:29.480 no one's listening to us. 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.720 I guess overall, we are also quite divided politically. We 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:38.920 have a pretty established left and right political blocks at 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.520 the moment, with a close fifty to fifty divide. Is 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.960 that concerning that we don't have much of a center? 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.840 Now? I don't agree. I mean, I think that's just normal. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.240 It's perhaps been a little bit exacerbated, obviously exacerbated by 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.880 COVID and also by the Treaty principles. Build debate, for instance, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:58.640 has tended to damage social cohesion to some extent. But 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.480 you know, we have these upsets every now and then. 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.920 The Springbok tour was perhaps the most extreme example in 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.400 living memory. So you know, we do, we move on, 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.720 We forgive, and we forget. Maybe don't forget, but we 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.000 just forgive one another a little bit, and we do 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.120 come back together. But the nature of a democracy is 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.240 of course that there will be a division more or 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.520 less down the middle between say, you know, forragments sacer 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.960 left and the right. That's perfectly normal. One of the 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.240 problems that we have now is not just in New 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.200 Zealand but elsewhere, is that polarization is rather more intense, 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.200 and it is exacerbated by a whole range of issues. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.800 You know, even for instance, the attacks on the Gaza 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.000 Strip for example, are really roiling up a lot of 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.520 those kinds of divisions. So these things happen. The question 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.440 really is not can we bring in everyone together and 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.040 make them agree? The question is how do we reach 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:54.640 across our disagreements, and how do governments handle all those 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.840 kinds of conflicts, and how do we well, we start 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.560 by listening to people. It is a democracy and so 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.800 the first place, the first thing to do is to 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.159 listen to what people have to say. If we have 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.159 to disagree with them, we disagree, but we ought to 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.600 do it respectfully. And I think that's where Kitkens and 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.080 Adoern got it wrong in February twenty twenty two. They 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.920 refuse to listen and disagree respectfully and explain to the 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.080 people out there outside Parliament why their demands could not 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.880 be met. And that was a complete failure of political 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.840 leadership on their part and they paid the price for that. 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.200 This is the thing. But they're still, i think, refusing 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.359 to admit that they got it wrong and they paid 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.520 a price for it. Maybe deep inside they do, but 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.360 publicly they won't admit it. So these are the sorts 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.280 of things that I think need to be done. And 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:43.320 so New Zealand has been through these polarising moments every 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.080 now and then. We get over them, we move through them. 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.160 Sometimes we sweep the issues under the carpet and they 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.560 just arise again. With the Treaty Principal's issue, it'll be back, 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.720 I can assure you. But with COVID, for instance, yes, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.720 the difficulty. There is of the obvious risk that the 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.359 in our lifetime there may very well be another such event, 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.480 and we need to be better prepared. New Zealand was 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.760 simply not well prepared in a public health sense, or 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.920 in terms of law, or any of those responses. Back 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.040 in twenty twenty two, the government fumbled around for about 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.320 three months before anything serious was done. This whole idea 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.760 that we went and hard and went in fast is 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.720 absolute nonsense. The New Zealand government fumbled around was about 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:31.320 three months of fumbling around doing stuff, all before effective 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.960 pandemic measures were taken to close the border for instance, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.960 way behind the ball compared to Taiwan. So we need 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.159 to be much better prepared like Taiwan was in twenty 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.600 twenty for the next one that comes along. But also, 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.040 and this is the point of this Royal Commission, we 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.359 need to make sure that people's disagreements have been aired 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.680 and heard and responded to so that when the next 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.800 one comes around, governments are better prepared in terms of 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.760 the kinds of messages that they give about why we're 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:03.639 doing what we're doing and why we need to do 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.480 it this way. Given that you know, as we learned 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.879 from the last pandemic. There's no nice way through it. 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.560 There's no kind way of getting through a pandemic. 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.680 And just lastly, grant, if we were to look at 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:19.480 social unity in New Zealand today, say on a sliding 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.320 scale between one and I don't know ten, being a 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.840 utopian society, I suppose where do you reckon we are 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:27.440 at the moment? 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.520 Ye, that's a good question. I mean, I guess I'd 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.879 put us at about a five. I mean, I think, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.520 But on the other hand, five is probably normal, you know. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.240 I mean, we've seen you know, when I think about 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.280 the divisions that happened in like Naty Wonderings, Bring Book Tour, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.320 or when a lot of controversy erupted around Don Brash's 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.680 notorious Audiois speech in two thousand and four, these things 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.440 happen every now and then. What happens is that a quiet, 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.920 underlying division has brought out onto the suit by some 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.280 kind of event that divides public opinion, and it becomes 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.320 a politically crucial yes or no kind of question for 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:11.240 or against question, and it polarizes public opinion. But what 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.440 you're seeing there really is the surfacing of what's what's 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.000 previously been under the surface, and part of the thing 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.679 of being a democracy is that people are permitted to 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.679 argue and express their differences of opinion. And so I 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.199 don't think we should be aiming for a ten honestly well, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.040 because as you say, that's a kind of utopian dream 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.520 and we'll never get to ten perfect social cohesion. So 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.080 the question really for a society like ours is how 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.840 do we manage our differences when they do come up, 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.959 and how do we act democratically to hear one another 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:51.240 out and to act respectfully across the political divide. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:52.560 Thanks for joining us, Grant. 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:53.160 Thank you. 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.960 That said for this episode of The Front Page. You 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.800 can read more about to stories and extensive news coverage 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.879 at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.639 produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:11.919 a sound engineer. 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:13.879 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.600 Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:21.520 get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.240 look behind the headlines.