1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The long 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 2: tale of COVID is still being felt for some parts 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: of our society. The second stage of the Royal Commission 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 2: into the COVID nineteen response kicked off this week with 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: public testimony from business owners and those impacted by vaccine 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: mandates and the lengthy lockdowns in Auckland and Northland. It's 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: part of the coalition deal between National and both ACT 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: and ENZ First and has prompted criticism over being overtly 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 2: political and spotlighting conspiracy theorists. But with so many in 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: the community still focused on the events of twenty twenty 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: and twenty twenty one, are we ever going. 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: To just move past it. 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: We'll discuss that later with independent political and social commentator 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: Grant Duncan, But first on the Front Page News Talks, 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: that'd be reporter Emily ansel Is with us to explain 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: what's been happening with the Royal Commission. Emily, what is 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: the point of this second stage of the Royal Commission 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: of the COVID response. 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 3: So this second phase is taking place so that those 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 3: who felt like they hadn't been heard in the first 23 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 3: could have their say on their experiences. Specifically this phase, 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 3: the Commission's job is to focus on the large lockdown 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: in Auckland, the twenty twenty one lockdown and how that 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: affected Auckland is but also Northlands, those in White cut 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: Or and around the rest of the country. They are 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: also looking at the vaccine mandates and the decisions made 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 3: around there and hearing from a variety of people who 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 3: both oppose and praise the vaccine mandates to understand and 31 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: I guess learn from how we responded and what we 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 3: can do next time. 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: What are the sorts of people we've been hearing from 34 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: so far? 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 3: We've heard from a variety lots of leaders and experts 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: in their sectors. We've heard from prominent GPS such as 37 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 3: Brian Betty and Angus Chambers. We've also heard from those 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: in the education sectors such as the president of the 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: New Zealand Principles Federation, Lean all Tenure, and spokespeople from 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: Kaitaia College speaking about their experience. We've heard from business 41 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: leaders in Auckland and Northland. We've heard from Marty, health 42 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: and social group leaders, community leaders from the Pacific community, 43 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: so a real briepth and depth of people from around 44 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 3: all parts of New Zealand society. 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 4: Has it been all conspiracy theorists like Labors Chris Hopkins 46 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 4: is alleged, or mostly just people with some sort of 47 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 4: issue with the response, I would say it doesn't seem 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 4: like there have been a lot of people who are 49 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,559 Speaker 4: overly positive about the experience. 50 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 3: With regard to the conspiracy side of things, I would 51 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: say no, I hadn't heard much in the way of 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: conspiracy up into today. We're hearing from people who have 53 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 3: been accused of spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories. But as 54 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,559 Speaker 3: I said, a lot of this week we've heard from experts, 55 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 3: from prominent leaders and the health and education and business sected, 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: basically just wanting to share what their experience was like. 57 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: I guess these decisions affected everyone and these were the 58 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: groups who felt like their experiences hadn't properly been considered. 59 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: So yesterday, the fourth day of the second phase of 60 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 3: this inquiry, we saw groups such as Voices for Freedom. 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: They were questioned I would say a little harder than 62 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: I had seen other groups by commissioners asking them to 63 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: be more direct in their answers, accusing them at least 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: once of avoiding the question questions such as do you 65 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: see that the government had a right to enforce quite 66 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 3: drastic actions in a crisis and a health crisis. But 67 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: the Commissioner did say right at the end that although 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: he did press them, that is not in any way 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: an indication of their stance. They have not made up 70 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: their mind. So they really are trying to emphasize that 71 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: they are listening and taking everything into account before they conclude. 72 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 5: Telling people they have conspiracy theorist views doesn't stop them 73 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 5: having conspiracy theorist views. And in many cases, as you 74 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 5: discovered on the lawn of. 75 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: Parliament, you make them worse. 76 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 6: Well, you're also giving them a platform, doesn't make them, 77 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 6: doesn't make them better. 78 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 5: Is it a platform or is it a place where 79 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 5: they can be heard? 80 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 6: Well, you know, have you mentioned the protest at Parliament? 81 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 6: There are people they're hanging nooses in the trees. Do 82 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 6: you really think that that was their constructive engagement? They're 83 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 6: not a platform for constructive engagement. 84 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 5: Well, before we saw the nurses, and we don't know 85 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 5: who put the nurses up, of what they were there for. 86 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 6: They hung them on the first who hung them. They 87 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 6: hang them on the first day they're own, and they 88 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 6: had names on them. Why was one of them? Who 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 6: are not going to go down and talk to them? 90 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 2: And you've been listening all week, Emily, in terms of 91 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 2: the submitters and the submissions that you've heard, are there 92 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: any that's stuck out to you? Have any quite been 93 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: quite emotional or did you learn something that you didn't know? 94 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 3: Perhaps there have been a few that have been emotional 95 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 3: for the people speaking. The ones that stand out in 96 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: that category would be people speaking about and members of 97 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: the public. They're also members of the public providing video 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 3: testimonies about how they missed out on farewelling their loved ones, 99 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: whether that for some of them that was really important 100 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: culturally the way that usually plays out, and they were 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 3: unable to do so. One woman spoke of losing her husband, 102 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 3: who was suffering with dementia, but he, according to her, 103 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: deteriorated quite quickly after the lockdowns, because she believed it 104 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 3: was because she was unable to see him as often 105 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 3: restricted in seeing him. One woman also spoke about losing 106 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 3: her sister, what she says was due to COVID nineteen 107 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: vaccine complications, so it's fair to say that the impact 108 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: that all of these measures had on people was pretty drastic, 109 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: and the people who were speaking at this inquiry really 110 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: wanted to make that clear. There was another one that 111 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 3: stood out to me with regards to some MARDI and 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: Pacific community leaders speaking about the use of vaccine vouchers 113 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: as an incentive to get people to get vaccinated. One 114 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 3: person said this in future probably wouldn't be the best 115 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 3: strategy just because it wasn't sustainable, and another woman spoke 116 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 3: of having to speak to a member of the public 117 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 3: who came through to get these vouchers to get vaccinated 118 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: three times because he didn't have any food and he 119 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 3: wanted to get those one hundred dollar food vouchers that 120 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,239 Speaker 3: were being given out. So that was an interesting point 121 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: that kind of stood out to me. The other thing, though, 122 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 3: that stood out to me, was that this hasn't all 123 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: been negative. There has been praise of the vaccine mandates 124 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: from people with disabilities who feel that they can now 125 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: be a part of society and that they are safe 126 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 3: and healthy. People who have compared our response to those 127 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: overseas and the level of deaths at other countries experience. 128 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: Other people have praised the government's quick action the lockdowns 129 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: for stopping the spread for vulnerable communities. So it has been, 130 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: from what I've observed, a fairly balanced experience and a 131 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 3: fairly balanced take on what people went through. 132 00:07:46,000 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Emily, no problem. For more on 133 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: the ramifications of our continued focus on COVID nineteen, we're 134 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: joined now by commentator Grant Duncan. 135 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: Grant, how has social unity been since COVID? 136 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: It felt like we were pretty united there for a while, 137 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: but then it kind of took a wrong turn, didn't 138 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: that what changed? 139 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 7: Well? Look, can I be a little bit contrary for 140 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 7: a moment with you and suggest that back in twenty 141 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 7: twenty before the election, things weren't as united as we 142 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 7: thought they were. Yeah. Sure, the government of the day 143 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 7: had a lot of popular support and trust, particularly mid 144 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 7: twenty twenty, but it wasn't universal and that was clear 145 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 7: from a survey that I did, and that particularly on 146 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 7: the right, there was quite a strong level of agreement 147 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 7: with the idea that the economic costs of the public 148 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 7: health measures outweighed the benefits of those measures, and so 149 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 7: that would be a constituents of people, particularly in small 150 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 7: business and things like this who were directly feeling the 151 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 7: effect on their businesses, and so I don't entirely agree 152 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 7: with the idea that New Zealand was a team of 153 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 7: five million at that time. Yes, I agree, of course 154 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 7: that the durn led government at that time was getting 155 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 7: a really strong level of support and they got an 156 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 7: amazing election result fifty percent. But what about the other 157 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 7: fifty percent? They weren't so happy. It's just that you 158 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 7: weren't hearing much from them at that. 159 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: Time, and what's happening now We're hearing from them now. Hey, 160 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 2: a lot of people unhappy with the lockdowns are getting 161 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 2: to have their say at the Royal Commission at the moment. 162 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: We also saw the other week a girl who was 163 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: eleven at the time of the Parliament occupation. She winna 164 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: go ahead, ensued sear Trevet Mallard overplaying baby shark and 165 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: turning the sprinklers on on the protesters. Why does it 166 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: feel like people who were most unhappy and are most 167 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 2: unhappy still with the way that we went about things 168 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: with COVID. 169 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: Why can't they quite move on from it? 170 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 7: Well, I'm not one of those people. I mean, I 171 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 7: got vaccinated and so forth, But my job is a 172 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 7: political scientist to try and understand other people's opinions, not 173 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 7: to impose my own. And you know, I've spoken with 174 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 7: a lot of people of that kind of opinion. You know, 175 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 7: I've had an ear bashing or two about vaccines and 176 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 7: so forth, and I've tried my best to understand the 177 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 7: opinions of people who feel excluded. They don't just feel excluded, 178 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 7: that actually were excluded. Remember, you know, some of them 179 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 7: lost their jobs. They couldn't go into cafes and get 180 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 7: normal service and things like that, and so suddenly it 181 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 7: wasn't a team of five million anymore. There was a 182 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,599 Speaker 7: radical exclusion of a minority of people. But here's the 183 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 7: other thing. I think we focused too much attention sometimes 184 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 7: on that relatively small minority, because what was also going 185 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 7: on under the surface, and we weren't hearing much about it, 186 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 7: was that people just generally getting worn out and annoyed 187 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 7: with many of the consequences of the low down. These 188 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 7: were people who would have been quite moderate, quite compliant, 189 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 7: probably got vaccinated, but when they saw the consequences of 190 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 7: trying to book online on MiQ or you know, the 191 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 7: consequences for people whom they knew or difficulties getting stuff done, 192 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 7: traveling and so forth, or the isolation, the loneliness for 193 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 7: a lot of people, it started to wear them down. 194 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 7: And so I think we shouldn't put all of our attention, 195 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 7: so to speak, when we're thinking about shift of political 196 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 7: opinion and social cohesion here on a small minority represented 197 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 7: by people who protested outside of parliament for a couple 198 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 7: of weeks in February twenty twenty two, because that doesn't 199 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 7: fully explain why Labor lost so badly in twenty twenty three. 200 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 7: The reason, one of the reasons why they lost so 201 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 7: badly in twenty twenty three was that they lost the 202 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 7: confidence of quite a large swath of the population who 203 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 7: weren't necessarily protesting outside of parliament and that kind of thing. 204 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 7: They were probably even vaccinated, but they were just worn 205 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 7: down by the effects, and quite reasonably so, because there 206 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 7: were real impacts on people's businesses, their private lives, their 207 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 7: family lives, and the government. I think that it was 208 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 7: lacking the leadership at that time to reach out to 209 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 7: those people and just say, hey, we understand the effect 210 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 7: that this is having. 211 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: Do you reckon if we had a COVID two point 212 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: zero now and the government went about the same measures, 213 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: even though it was successful, and we know that we 214 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: were one of the better off countries in the world. 215 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: Do you think there would be more people in the 216 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: camp saying actually no, I. 217 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 7: Thoroughly do think that exactly. And in other words, one 218 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 7: thing that I think needs to come out of this 219 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 7: COVID inquiry is recommendations about doing it differently next time, 220 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 7: partly because there's now quite a significantly ingrained level of 221 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 7: skepticism and a sense of oh no, not that again, 222 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 7: thank you very much. And as I said, not just 223 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 7: talking about people who were vaccine refuse nicks. I'm also 224 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 7: talking about people who, to a large extent, we're willing 225 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 7: to comply with the government's orders. So let's not just 226 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 7: focus on the conspiracy theorists for a moment and think 227 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 7: about the broad middle ground of New Zealand opinion. I 228 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 7: think that they've been through this experience. They know the 229 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 7: drill now, and they know people are pretty savvy. They 230 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 7: know what works and what doesn't work. They know what 231 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 7: kinds of risks they're prepared to take if once they 232 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 7: understand the nature of a pandemic. And I personally think 233 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 7: that if we had a COVID two point zero. The 234 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 7: government of the day would need to take quite a 235 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 7: different approach, put much more responsibility on individuals and non firms, 236 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 7: employers and people like that to take more responsibility for 237 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 7: how they protect themselves and the people around them. 238 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 8: There might have been some differences around who was required 239 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 8: to get them versus who, you know, just needs to 240 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 8: stay home a bit longer and waited out for people 241 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 8: like me are able to get them. I think overall, though, 242 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 8: they did the best they could with information they have, 243 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 8: and if we keep the base of that game and 244 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 8: just alter it depending on, you know, whatever a new 245 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 8: disease comes over where, I think we'll keep saving lives 246 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 8: and we'll keep having a productive workforce because of it. 247 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: We are seeing, though, especially during this inquiry, that the 248 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: conspiracy theorists or the people that are most displeased with 249 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: how we went about things do tend to be the loudest, right, 250 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: So we had a point now that we're just letting 251 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: everyone air their thoughts in a public forum, and I 252 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: guess hope everyone moves on. 253 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 7: Well, it is a democracy, and the people who are 254 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 7: so disgruntled are our fellow citizens, and I don't think 255 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 7: we should refuse to listen to them. I think they 256 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 7: should be given a hearing, because sweeping things under the 257 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 7: carpet in a democracy, the ever works just boilers up 258 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 7: later on. So it may be a little bit painful 259 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 7: for some people to have to listen to some of 260 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 7: those complaints. But unfortunately, I think we should hear them out, 261 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 7: and a sensible commission of inquiry, will you know, explain 262 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 7: that you know, these are the views of certain people. 263 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 7: They may be minority views, there may be reasons why, 264 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 7: perhaps some of those views are incorrect, why they don't 265 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 7: stack up against scientific evidence, et cetera. But that's the 266 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 7: purpose of a commission of inquiries, to sort the wheek 267 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 7: from the chaff like that. But it would be worse 268 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 7: in the long run if those people kept saying, look, 269 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 7: no one's listening to us. 270 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: I guess overall, we are also quite divided politically. We 271 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: have a pretty established left and right political blocks at 272 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: the moment, with a close fifty to fifty divide. Is 273 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: that concerning that we don't have much of a center? 274 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 7: Now? I don't agree. I mean, I think that's just normal. 275 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 7: It's perhaps been a little bit exacerbated, obviously exacerbated by 276 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 7: COVID and also by the Treaty principles. Build debate, for instance, 277 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 7: has tended to damage social cohesion to some extent. But 278 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 7: you know, we have these upsets every now and then. 279 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 7: The Springbok tour was perhaps the most extreme example in 280 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 7: living memory. So you know, we do, we move on, 281 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 7: We forgive, and we forget. Maybe don't forget, but we 282 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 7: just forgive one another a little bit, and we do 283 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 7: come back together. But the nature of a democracy is 284 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 7: of course that there will be a division more or 285 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 7: less down the middle between say, you know, forragments sacer 286 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 7: left and the right. That's perfectly normal. One of the 287 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 7: problems that we have now is not just in New 288 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 7: Zealand but elsewhere, is that polarization is rather more intense, 289 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 7: and it is exacerbated by a whole range of issues. 290 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 7: You know, even for instance, the attacks on the Gaza 291 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 7: Strip for example, are really roiling up a lot of 292 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 7: those kinds of divisions. So these things happen. The question 293 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 7: really is not can we bring in everyone together and 294 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 7: make them agree? The question is how do we reach 295 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 7: across our disagreements, and how do governments handle all those 296 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 7: kinds of conflicts, and how do we well, we start 297 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 7: by listening to people. It is a democracy and so 298 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 7: the first place, the first thing to do is to 299 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 7: listen to what people have to say. If we have 300 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 7: to disagree with them, we disagree, but we ought to 301 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 7: do it respectfully. And I think that's where Kitkens and 302 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 7: Adoern got it wrong in February twenty twenty two. They 303 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 7: refuse to listen and disagree respectfully and explain to the 304 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 7: people out there outside Parliament why their demands could not 305 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 7: be met. And that was a complete failure of political 306 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 7: leadership on their part and they paid the price for that. 307 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 7: This is the thing. But they're still, i think, refusing 308 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 7: to admit that they got it wrong and they paid 309 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 7: a price for it. Maybe deep inside they do, but 310 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 7: publicly they won't admit it. So these are the sorts 311 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 7: of things that I think need to be done. And 312 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 7: so New Zealand has been through these polarising moments every 313 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 7: now and then. We get over them, we move through them. 314 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 7: Sometimes we sweep the issues under the carpet and they 315 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 7: just arise again. With the Treaty Principal's issue, it'll be back, 316 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 7: I can assure you. But with COVID, for instance, yes, 317 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 7: the difficulty. There is of the obvious risk that the 318 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 7: in our lifetime there may very well be another such event, 319 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 7: and we need to be better prepared. New Zealand was 320 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 7: simply not well prepared in a public health sense, or 321 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 7: in terms of law, or any of those responses. Back 322 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 7: in twenty twenty two, the government fumbled around for about 323 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 7: three months before anything serious was done. This whole idea 324 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 7: that we went and hard and went in fast is 325 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 7: absolute nonsense. The New Zealand government fumbled around was about 326 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 7: three months of fumbling around doing stuff, all before effective 327 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 7: pandemic measures were taken to close the border for instance, 328 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 7: way behind the ball compared to Taiwan. So we need 329 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 7: to be much better prepared like Taiwan was in twenty 330 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 7: twenty for the next one that comes along. But also, 331 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 7: and this is the point of this Royal Commission, we 332 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 7: need to make sure that people's disagreements have been aired 333 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 7: and heard and responded to so that when the next 334 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 7: one comes around, governments are better prepared in terms of 335 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 7: the kinds of messages that they give about why we're 336 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 7: doing what we're doing and why we need to do 337 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 7: it this way. Given that you know, as we learned 338 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 7: from the last pandemic. There's no nice way through it. 339 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 7: There's no kind way of getting through a pandemic. 340 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: And just lastly, grant, if we were to look at 341 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 2: social unity in New Zealand today, say on a sliding 342 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: scale between one and I don't know ten, being a 343 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: utopian society, I suppose where do you reckon we are 344 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: at the moment? 345 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 7: Ye, that's a good question. I mean, I guess I'd 346 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 7: put us at about a five. I mean, I think, 347 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 7: But on the other hand, five is probably normal, you know. 348 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 7: I mean, we've seen you know, when I think about 349 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 7: the divisions that happened in like Naty Wonderings, Bring Book Tour, 350 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 7: or when a lot of controversy erupted around Don Brash's 351 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 7: notorious Audiois speech in two thousand and four, these things 352 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 7: happen every now and then. What happens is that a quiet, 353 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 7: underlying division has brought out onto the suit by some 354 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 7: kind of event that divides public opinion, and it becomes 355 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 7: a politically crucial yes or no kind of question for 356 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 7: or against question, and it polarizes public opinion. But what 357 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 7: you're seeing there really is the surfacing of what's what's 358 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 7: previously been under the surface, and part of the thing 359 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 7: of being a democracy is that people are permitted to 360 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 7: argue and express their differences of opinion. And so I 361 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 7: don't think we should be aiming for a ten honestly well, 362 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 7: because as you say, that's a kind of utopian dream 363 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 7: and we'll never get to ten perfect social cohesion. So 364 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 7: the question really for a society like ours is how 365 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 7: do we manage our differences when they do come up, 366 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 7: and how do we act democratically to hear one another 367 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 7: out and to act respectfully across the political divide. 368 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Grant. 369 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 7: Thank you. 370 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: That said for this episode of The Front Page. You 371 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: can read more about to stories and extensive news coverage 372 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 373 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 374 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 2: a sound engineer. 375 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 376 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 377 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 378 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: look behind the headlines.