WEBVTT - Why schools are moving away from NCEA and are the alternatives any better? 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:06.120 Kiota. 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.240 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:16.720 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The National 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:22.800 Certificate of Educational Achievement or NCEA, has been New Zealand's 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:27.240 main secondary school qualification for more than twenty years now, 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.160 but its future could be on the line as more 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.080 top schools plan to offer alternatives and a government briefing 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:37.600 raised concerns about its credibility. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.640 So is NCEA really as bad as. 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.920 It's made out to be? And what would be the 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:46.120 benefit of switching your kid over to another option? 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:46.640 Out there? 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:47.040 Today? 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.280 On the front Page, Doctor Nina Hood from the Education 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.520 Hub is with us to discuss the future of high 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.680 schooling in New Zealand. Nina. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:00:59.959 In the last few. 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.720 Weeks weeks, we've seen EPSOM Girls' Grammar announce it will 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.480 offer Cambridge exams next year. Mount Albert Grammar's principle has 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.120 said it's under pressure to offer it as well, and 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.800 Auckland Grammar's principle wants it scrapped entirely. Are you surprised 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.280 to see this push away from n the CEA? 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.800 Not really, I think we've seen it happen over a 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:22.559 number of years. 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:22.800 Right. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.880 So since NCIA came out in the early two thousands, 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.720 we've had a number of schools that have started. 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.240 To offer alternative qualifications. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.360 So this has been something that's been consistent with NCA 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:35.199 throughout the. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:36.760 Whole time that we've had it. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:41.720 I think the latest round of schools saying actually, maybe 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.200 we are going to consider something else is in part 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.480 a reflection of frustrations about some of the more recent 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.000 things that have happened with NCA. 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:52.400 But I think what we've also. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:54.880 Seen is that last month there was a briefing paper 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.280 given to the government which outlined a whole host of 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.360 issues with the qualification, and I think that's possibly spurred 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.800 some schools to really reconsider what they're. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.240 Doing, what are some of the concerns and issues evolving 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:08.600 from it. 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.920 So I think there are a number of things that 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.920 have been identified. One is around a lack of consistency. 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.560 So we know that the way that the qualification works, 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:26.560 students can sit individual standards, so they're not necessarily doing 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.079 a whole body of work within a single subject. They're able, 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.880 to some degree peck and queues. This has led to 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.200 some students in some schools just opting into what are 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:40.720 perceived to be easiest standards. In many instances, it is 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.200 meant that students are getting the qualification just through sitting 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.000 internal assessments, so doing course work during the year that's 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.480 marked by school teachers. And what we know about the 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:55.320 internals from research that's happened over a number of years 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.160 is that in many cases they suffer from great inflation, 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.560 so there's not always a lot of validity about it. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.320 And so you've got students who are not necessarily sitting 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.680 the external exams either. So there are a whole host 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:08.839 of different issues, and I think another thing that's come 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:13.200 up is that the qualification is not necessarily easily internationally 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:14.120 comparable either. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.919 So the suggestion of picking and choosing is that where 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.600 the gaming the system chat comes from. 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:22.440 It is the gaming the system part of it. So 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.519 depending there are different ways that you can achieve your qualification. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:28.640 And so what a lot of students are doing is 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.960 thinking how can I utilize the flexibility that's built into 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.640 NCA to ensure that I get the qualification? And in 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.120 some instances, but it's really important to stress this is 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.320 not happening in all schools or in all instances, they say, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.839 how can I pick so called easier credits in order 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:51.120 to build up my qualification, rather than say, sitting the 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:55.200 entirety of your level three maths paper, you say, I'll 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.400 pick this set of this standard here, this standard here, 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.040 in order to build it up, rather than saying, actually, 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.480 I'm just going to sit a full year thirteen Maths 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:06.800 course or a whole year thirteen English course. 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.520 And why wouldn't you though, if that option was available 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.360 to you. Of course these kids are going to go 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:15.520 for the easier option. 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.279 Yeah, I mean it is a very rational response to 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:21.880 the way that the qualification set up, right, so you 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.359 can't blame them for doing this. And one of the 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:26.479 other things that we know is happening is that you 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.200 need to get a certain number of credits in order 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.400 to pass each level of NCA. Well, for some students 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:37.320 they get the necessary credits just through internal assessments during 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.479 the year, and as a result, they're not sitting the 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:40.520 end of your exams. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.200 Again, incredibly rational behavior. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.799 Why would you sit for an exam if it's actually 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:47.760 not going to you don't need it in order to 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.240 pass the qualification. From a purely learning point of view, 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.000 of course, you want them to be doing that, and 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.120 of course you want them to be engaging with the 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.440 full scope of the work. But the way the qualification 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:00.800 set up means that you don't use this Sily have to. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.400 What are some of the stats or research that you've 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:07.080 seen around in CEA. Is it getting into a crisis mode? 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:08.080 Should we be worried? 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.720 So we know that an increasing number of schools are 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.760 no longer offering level one, so that's what students normally 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.479 set in year eleven. So I think it's around twenty 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.080 five to thirty percent of schools are no longer offering 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.440 a level one qualification. In many instances, it's because level 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.400 one is not seen to be a particularly I mean, 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.640 it doesn't lead to a lot now right, So what 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.560 the research would tell us is that students who get 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.119 level one and only level one are not necessarily better 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.159 off in terms of their employment opportunities compared to students 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.880 who don't get level one, and that sort of the 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.800 low eventchmark really for qualifications is your level two what 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.839 you normally do in year twelve. So as a result 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.000 of a lot of schools are dropping that and that 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.880 does raise questions if you have a growing number of 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.520 schools across the country saying actually we're not going to 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.279 offer one level of the nationalqual Alification system. You do 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.760 have to start asking questions about what's going on. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:07.400 Are you going to blow it up? 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.880 When are you going to everything's on the table, because genuinely, 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.520 there's nothing more important than getting our kids well educated. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.680 I speak to a lot of parents, teachers, principles. They 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:21.400 have really serious concerns about NCAA and the danger as 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.640 you can go through an exercise where you reassured that 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.000 you're getting well educated because you're getting different getting through 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.159 the NCAA system. But the thing for me and for 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.200 the parents and teachers that I run into is, are 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.520 our kids at fifteen sixteen as well educated as their 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.320 counterparts in Australia or Canada or Ireland or something else 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.440 we went to. We can't. That's got to be globally comparable. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.440 And secondarity, are we actually teaching them the basics and 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.040 giving them a core educational program that actually sets them 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.080 up well for working life? 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.120 Is there some old fashioned thinking here as well? I mean, 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.800 I feel like a certain generation is just fixated on 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.200 that idea of end of year exams being the be 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.440 all and then all right, And I remember, I'm not 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:04.880 giving away my age, but it was certainly that way 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.680 when I finished high school as well. But it is 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.440 true that that kind of one size fits all approach 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.280 doesn't work for every kid, right. 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:13.800 Yeah, absolutely right. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.680 And I think one of the things, one of the 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.280 reasons why NCA was brought in and the way that 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.240 it was brought in was to create a degree. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.920 Of flexibility within our schooling system. 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:29.000 So it enabled students to receive a qualification by putting 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:33.840 together different series of standards, different sets of credits. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.440 To form a pathway that was going to work for them. 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.880 And I think whenever we're thinking about our qualification system, 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:43.120 we want to be ensuring that we have pathways for 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:44.600 different types of students. 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:45.800 I think what's. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.280 Happened on the flip side, though, is that that's potentially 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.080 gone a little bit too far and we need to 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.080 actually look at some of what's going on in there. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.720 So there are definitely things that we need to strengthen, 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.080 and you know, there are steps that we could take 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.960 that would strengthen it. And I mean, personally, I think 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.600 that probably is a role for indo viewer exams, but 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.480 I'm not sure that that's the only method that we 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.080 want to be using and we know that in a 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.679 number of subjects, actually having internals is also really important 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.160 because there are things that you just can't assess through 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:25.040 an ind of viewer exam. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.720 So since we're talking about alternatives, let's look at the 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.400 big two that are offered. Hey, so Cambridge and the 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.959 International Backer Laureates, which I've heard referred to as IB 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:39.520 for FS reasons. So what are they and how do 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.320 they differ from in CEA? 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.800 Sure, so Cambridge is out of the UK, IB is 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.320 out of Switzerland, and you're right, the other two big 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.560 international qualifications that are used around the world, but also 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:58.120 a number of New Zealand schools are utilizing. So in Cambridge, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.920 that's probably your most traditional So if you're thinking back 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.040 to sort of what it used to be like, it's 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.240 quite similar to what Cambridge is. You would normally in 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.040 your final two years of school. So the program runs 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.000 across the final two years of school, so you're year 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.120 twelve and year thirteen. Students are usually taking four maybe 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.840 five subjects in that and they are primarily assessed through 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.600 an end of year exam, although some subjects do have 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:28.559 some internal assessment component built into that, but you do 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.360 have far more of an exam focus. You know, you 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.040 pick the subjects that you're going to do and you 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:35.800 do the entirety of that subject, so you don't have 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.720 a subject made up of individual standards that you can 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.040 pick and choose on. You just sit that subject. International 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.560 Facalaureat I'd be in some way similar, but it's a 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.520 more holistic system. So again it runs over the final 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.400 two years of school, So it's a two year course 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.400 and it comprises a max of both external exams at 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.400 the end of your course as well as a number 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.839 of internal assessments. I think one of the key differences 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.200 between IV and Cambridge is that in ID you do 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.000 do more subjects, and you also are required to take 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.800 a range of different subjects. So for instance, you take 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.200 a science, you take maths, you take English, you learn 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.000 a language, you do a humanity or social science. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:20.720 But you also have. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.160 Learning that you do in activities that you do outside 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.080 of your sort of academic program. 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:28.000 So they have. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.680 Something called the theory of Knowledge, which is really around 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:38.000 philosophy that all students take. All students are required to 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.160 do what they call CASS, which stands for Creativity Activity 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.760 in service, So you have to do something creative so 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:46.880 that might be music, it might be drama, it might 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.440 be dance. You have to do activity, which is some 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.320 sort of sport or physical activity, and some sort of 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.040 service activity. So you're getting quite a holistic, sort of 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.240 well rounded aspect to your education. And you also do 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.720 what they call the extended essay. You pick one of 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.520 the subjects that you're doing and you do an in 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:07.679 depth research project in it. So it is a very holistic, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.120 broad qualification, right. 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:12.480 And when I asked, because I'm not from this land, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:14.880 so I asked a few people around the office which 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.560 ones that they did are, ninety nine percent said that 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.520 they did n CAEA. And when I asked about the 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.839 Cambridge and IB a couple of comments were like, well, 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.880 they're just like kind of for rich schools or people 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.119 who want to do UNI. 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.880 At like Oxford or something. I mean, is that a 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.240 fair assessment? I mean, I think yes and no. 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.240 I mean, one thing I would say is that you 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.160 can get into universities around the world sitting in CEA. 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.080 So I wouldn't want anyone to think, oh my goodness, 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.000 I'm not going to be a up to go to 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.880 somewhere else to do my university. Because I did NCA. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.520 That's absolutely not true, you can. I think you're right 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:58.840 in saying that in many cases it's your larger secondary 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:03.080 schools from you know, wealthier areas that are opting to 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.400 do these alternative qualifications. In the case of IB, that's 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.440 because it's actually really expensive to do IB for a 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.920 school to set up IB, and part of the reason 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.160 for that is that all teachers who are teaching IB 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.480 have to go through quite a rigorous training program in 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.800 order to be able to teach IB, and in most instances, 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.000 those training programs happen off shore, so schools are having 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.720 to fund teachers to go off shore to participate in 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.320 their training. But you're definitely right in that it is 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:38.920 largely our larger secondary schools from higher socioeconomic areas that 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.319 are opting to do these alternative pathways. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:48.160 In CEA is still a good qualification. It's just not 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.120 consistent and it can be massively improved. And that's the key. 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.880 I don't want to stand here today and say, Lo, 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.360 the MCA is terrible. It's still a very good qualification. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:04.040 Many students still end up in high quality universities all 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.280 over the world. Many people are still choosing it over 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.360 other qualifications, but there is a lot that we can 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.520 do to strengthen it, to make it more consistent, to 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:15.800 make parents understand it. I mean, why on earth can 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.160 we not go back to a markout of one hundred 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.520 for goodness sake. ABC, I've got my children coming home 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.320 saying I only had to answer two of the questions 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:25.960 to get excellent. But what do you mean you didn't 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.480 have to answer all of the questions? Oh, I don't know, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.240 just the excellence one. 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:32.840 What are the results like? 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:33.839 Is there any better? 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.280 That's a really hard question to answer, right, because what 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.960 we know is that in many of these schools actually 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.800 they retain INCA as well, So you have some students 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.440 doing nca you do have some students doing Cambridge or 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:53.959 International Baccalaureate, So it's really hard to make a direct comparison. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.960 It's also really hard to compare results with the NCAA 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.920 with results actually in either of the other qualifications because 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.760 the way that their assessed is slightly different, So you 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:06.440 can't make a direct comparison. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.640 I guess in terms of those three qualifications, would you 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.360 recommend one over the other or does it just depend 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:13.880 on the kid. 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.120 So I'm always a big advocate and just about anything 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.400 in education and saying you match it to the child. 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.800 And you know, I think IB could definitely suit some people. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.800 But if you've got someone who has a particular interest 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.760 in certain subjects, he's actually really not going to suit 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.360 them because you're having to do a wide range of subjects, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.600 you know, and that's where INCA can be really valuable, 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.800 because you can start to specialize in particular subjects. I 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.000 think the other thing that we haven't touched on that's 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.480 really critically important when we're thinking about any qualification system, 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.280 and particularly if we're thinking about well, what where do 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.120 we go next to New Zealand, is that alongside any 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.640 sort of more academically oriented qualification system, we also need 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.280 to make sure that we've got a really strong vocational 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.760 education and a training system running alongside that, because we 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:04.640 know that there are a number of children in our 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.480 school for whom that is the right pathway for them. 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.000 At the end of the day. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.120 And this is something that I found interesting when talking 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.640 to a couple of the younger ones in the office 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.200 as well. Does it still seem like if you don't 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.360 do well in year thirteen that that is the end 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.240 of your life? You know that feeling of just say, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.560 I'm like, is it the same? Because I remember where 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.040 it was year twelve back where I'm from, and I 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.040 remember getting my results back and there being a discrepancy 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.320 or something, and I, honestly, god, I thought, this is it. 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.400 This is the end. I'm never going to amount to 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.360 anything in my entire life. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.280 Is that still drilled into kids these days. Yeah, that's 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:43.680 a really interesting question. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.080 I mean, I think the qualifications that you get at 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.120 the end of school are always going to be important 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.640 because you know, it's at that age that's sort of 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.160 the barrier or frontier between that and the next thing 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.240 that you're going to go on to do. And you know, 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.520 particularly for students who are wanting to go on to university, 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.840 then yeah, that is really important. But it's a really 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.440 interesting question to explore and to ask because we also 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.880 know that there are changing dynamics, and you know, there 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.680 are people around the world who are questioning more and 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.480 more the value of university and whether it's the right 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:23.320 pathway for different people to be pursuing. But I think 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:28.680 by and large, there is still a perception, definitely among 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.640 broader society that qualifications in school do matter, that they 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.440 do still stand for something. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.080 And just lastly, Nina, if you could change anything about 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.800 the system tomorrow. So you've got Erica Stamford on the phone. 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.240 She's like, yes, Nina, I will do whatever you tell me. 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.720 I'll do it today. What's the first thing that you 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:48.240 would tackle? 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.120 I mean, I think what you've got to do is 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:57.600 you've got to make sure that our qualification system is 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.000 being based off our curriculum. Right, in an ideal world, 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.200 what you do is you write a really great curriculum 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.240 and then you design an assessment system that actually enables 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.840 you to assess how well the students have progressed through 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:15.959 that particular curriculum. NCA hasn't actually worked like that. It 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.320 has operated distinct from the curriculum, in part because there 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.200 are a whole host of issues with the current curriculum, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.240 although those are being addressed by the work that's currently 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.480 underway and redeveloping the curriculum. But essentially, what you have 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.320 is a qualification system and a set of standards that 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.760 are defining the curriculum as it is at the moment. 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:37.000 So we need to flip that. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.480 We need to say, what's our curriculum, make sure it's 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:44.080 really rigorous and robust, and then design a qualification system 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.399 that enables us to reliably and validly test that. 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.000 Right, so what you've been learning during the year actually 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.080 shows up in the end of your exam. 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:55.560 Yeah. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.120 Absolutely, And I think you know, one of the things 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:00.679 we could also do because we know we have an 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.280 issue with internal assessments at the moment with NCAA, and 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.639 we don't want to get rid of them completely. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:08.840 We want to have certain. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.880 Aspects, of course in a program that are internally assessed, 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.439 but we need to find a way to make that 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.840 internal assessment more robust, and there are a number of 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:17.280 ways that. 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:17.879 We could do that. 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.679 One is that you could say, actually, it's not the 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.360 classroom teachers that are going to be marking those internals. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.879 They're all going to be centrally marked. And that's what 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.440 some of the other international qualification systems do. They don't 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.480 enable individual schools to mark their own students' work. They 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.240 send them out centrally and they're marked centrally. I think 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.320 the other thing we could do with our current system, 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.320 if we were to keep it the way it is, 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.879 is to actually not tell students their internal assessment grades 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.040 until the end of the year. Because that would then 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.560 force them to actually continue to engage in the learning 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.600 that they have to do right, And what we have 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.639 is students that basically say, oh, I've got all my credits, 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:56.960 I'm going to stop learning part. 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:57.480 Way through the year. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.919 Well that's ridiculous. They're just losing out on all that 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.159 potentially valuable learning. So we could find a way to 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.920 try and stop that from happening as well. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.920 Thanks for joining us, Nina, my pleasure. 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.800 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.800 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.040 at enzedherld dot co dot nz. 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.360 The Front Page is produced by. 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.919 Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:31.720 I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.080 or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.080 Monday for another look behind the headlines.