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Speaker 1: Kiota.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The National

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Speaker 2: Certificate of Educational Achievement or NCEA, has been New Zealand's

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Speaker 2: main secondary school qualification for more than twenty years now,

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Speaker 2: but its future could be on the line as more

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Speaker 2: top schools plan to offer alternatives and a government briefing

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Speaker 2: raised concerns about its credibility.

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Speaker 3: So is NCEA really as bad as.

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Speaker 2: It's made out to be? And what would be the

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Speaker 2: benefit of switching your kid over to another option?

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Speaker 1: Out there?

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Speaker 3: Today?

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Speaker 2: On the front Page, Doctor Nina Hood from the Education

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Speaker 2: Hub is with us to discuss the future of high

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Speaker 2: schooling in New Zealand. Nina.

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Speaker 3: In the last few.

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Speaker 2: Weeks weeks, we've seen EPSOM Girls' Grammar announce it will

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Speaker 2: offer Cambridge exams next year. Mount Albert Grammar's principle has

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Speaker 2: said it's under pressure to offer it as well, and

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Speaker 2: Auckland Grammar's principle wants it scrapped entirely. Are you surprised

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Speaker 2: to see this push away from n the CEA?

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Speaker 4: Not really, I think we've seen it happen over a

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Speaker 4: number of years.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So since NCIA came out in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 4: we've had a number of schools that have started.

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Speaker 3: To offer alternative qualifications.

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Speaker 4: So this has been something that's been consistent with NCA

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Speaker 4: throughout the.

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Speaker 3: Whole time that we've had it.

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Speaker 4: I think the latest round of schools saying actually, maybe

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Speaker 4: we are going to consider something else is in part

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Speaker 4: a reflection of frustrations about some of the more recent

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Speaker 4: things that have happened with NCA.

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Speaker 3: But I think what we've also.

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Speaker 4: Seen is that last month there was a briefing paper

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Speaker 4: given to the government which outlined a whole host of

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Speaker 4: issues with the qualification, and I think that's possibly spurred

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Speaker 4: some schools to really reconsider what they're.

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Speaker 2: Doing, what are some of the concerns and issues evolving

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Speaker 2: from it.

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Speaker 4: So I think there are a number of things that

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Speaker 4: have been identified. One is around a lack of consistency.

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Speaker 4: So we know that the way that the qualification works,

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Speaker 4: students can sit individual standards, so they're not necessarily doing

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Speaker 4: a whole body of work within a single subject. They're able,

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Speaker 4: to some degree peck and queues. This has led to

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Speaker 4: some students in some schools just opting into what are

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Speaker 4: perceived to be easiest standards. In many instances, it is

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Speaker 4: meant that students are getting the qualification just through sitting

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Speaker 4: internal assessments, so doing course work during the year that's

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Speaker 4: marked by school teachers. And what we know about the

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Speaker 4: internals from research that's happened over a number of years

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Speaker 4: is that in many cases they suffer from great inflation,

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Speaker 4: so there's not always a lot of validity about it.

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Speaker 4: And so you've got students who are not necessarily sitting

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Speaker 4: the external exams either. So there are a whole host

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Speaker 4: of different issues, and I think another thing that's come

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Speaker 4: up is that the qualification is not necessarily easily internationally

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Speaker 4: comparable either.

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Speaker 2: So the suggestion of picking and choosing is that where

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Speaker 2: the gaming the system chat comes from.

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Speaker 4: It is the gaming the system part of it. So

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Speaker 4: depending there are different ways that you can achieve your qualification.

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Speaker 4: And so what a lot of students are doing is

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Speaker 4: thinking how can I utilize the flexibility that's built into

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Speaker 4: NCA to ensure that I get the qualification? And in

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Speaker 4: some instances, but it's really important to stress this is

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Speaker 4: not happening in all schools or in all instances, they say,

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Speaker 4: how can I pick so called easier credits in order

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Speaker 4: to build up my qualification, rather than say, sitting the

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Speaker 4: entirety of your level three maths paper, you say, I'll

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Speaker 4: pick this set of this standard here, this standard here,

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Speaker 4: in order to build it up, rather than saying, actually,

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Speaker 4: I'm just going to sit a full year thirteen Maths

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Speaker 4: course or a whole year thirteen English course.

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Speaker 2: And why wouldn't you though, if that option was available

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Speaker 2: to you. Of course these kids are going to go

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Speaker 2: for the easier option.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it is a very rational response to

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Speaker 4: the way that the qualification set up, right, so you

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Speaker 4: can't blame them for doing this. And one of the

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Speaker 4: other things that we know is happening is that you

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Speaker 4: need to get a certain number of credits in order

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Speaker 4: to pass each level of NCA. Well, for some students

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Speaker 4: they get the necessary credits just through internal assessments during

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Speaker 4: the year, and as a result, they're not sitting the

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Speaker 4: end of your exams.

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Speaker 3: Again, incredibly rational behavior.

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Speaker 4: Why would you sit for an exam if it's actually

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Speaker 4: not going to you don't need it in order to

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Speaker 4: pass the qualification. From a purely learning point of view,

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Speaker 4: of course, you want them to be doing that, and

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Speaker 4: of course you want them to be engaging with the

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Speaker 4: full scope of the work. But the way the qualification

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Speaker 4: set up means that you don't use this Sily have to.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the stats or research that you've

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Speaker 2: seen around in CEA. Is it getting into a crisis mode?

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Speaker 3: Should we be worried?

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Speaker 4: So we know that an increasing number of schools are

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Speaker 4: no longer offering level one, so that's what students normally

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Speaker 4: set in year eleven. So I think it's around twenty

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Speaker 4: five to thirty percent of schools are no longer offering

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Speaker 4: a level one qualification. In many instances, it's because level

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Speaker 4: one is not seen to be a particularly I mean,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't lead to a lot now right, So what

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Speaker 4: the research would tell us is that students who get

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Speaker 4: level one and only level one are not necessarily better

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Speaker 4: off in terms of their employment opportunities compared to students

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Speaker 4: who don't get level one, and that sort of the

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Speaker 4: low eventchmark really for qualifications is your level two what

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Speaker 4: you normally do in year twelve. So as a result

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Speaker 4: of a lot of schools are dropping that and that

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Speaker 4: does raise questions if you have a growing number of

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Speaker 4: schools across the country saying actually we're not going to

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Speaker 4: offer one level of the nationalqual Alification system. You do

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Speaker 4: have to start asking questions about what's going on.

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Speaker 3: Are you going to blow it up?

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Speaker 5: When are you going to everything's on the table, because genuinely,

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Speaker 5: there's nothing more important than getting our kids well educated.

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Speaker 5: I speak to a lot of parents, teachers, principles. They

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Speaker 5: have really serious concerns about NCAA and the danger as

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Speaker 5: you can go through an exercise where you reassured that

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Speaker 5: you're getting well educated because you're getting different getting through

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Speaker 5: the NCAA system. But the thing for me and for

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Speaker 5: the parents and teachers that I run into is, are

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Speaker 5: our kids at fifteen sixteen as well educated as their

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Speaker 5: counterparts in Australia or Canada or Ireland or something else

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Speaker 5: we went to. We can't. That's got to be globally comparable.

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Speaker 5: And secondarity, are we actually teaching them the basics and

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Speaker 5: giving them a core educational program that actually sets them

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Speaker 5: up well for working life?

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Speaker 2: Is there some old fashioned thinking here as well? I mean,

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Speaker 2: I feel like a certain generation is just fixated on

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Speaker 2: that idea of end of year exams being the be

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Speaker 2: all and then all right, And I remember, I'm not

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Speaker 2: giving away my age, but it was certainly that way

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Speaker 2: when I finished high school as well. But it is

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Speaker 2: true that that kind of one size fits all approach

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Speaker 2: doesn't work for every kid, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely right.

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Speaker 4: And I think one of the things, one of the

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Speaker 4: reasons why NCA was brought in and the way that

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Speaker 4: it was brought in was to create a degree.

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Speaker 3: Of flexibility within our schooling system.

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Speaker 4: So it enabled students to receive a qualification by putting

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Speaker 4: together different series of standards, different sets of credits.

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Speaker 3: To form a pathway that was going to work for them.

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Speaker 4: And I think whenever we're thinking about our qualification system,

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Speaker 4: we want to be ensuring that we have pathways for

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Speaker 4: different types of students.

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Speaker 3: I think what's.

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Speaker 4: Happened on the flip side, though, is that that's potentially

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Speaker 4: gone a little bit too far and we need to

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Speaker 4: actually look at some of what's going on in there.

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Speaker 4: So there are definitely things that we need to strengthen,

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Speaker 4: and you know, there are steps that we could take

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Speaker 4: that would strengthen it. And I mean, personally, I think

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Speaker 4: that probably is a role for indo viewer exams, but

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that that's the only method that we

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Speaker 4: want to be using and we know that in a

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Speaker 4: number of subjects, actually having internals is also really important

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Speaker 4: because there are things that you just can't assess through

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Speaker 4: an ind of viewer exam.

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Speaker 2: So since we're talking about alternatives, let's look at the

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Speaker 2: big two that are offered. Hey, so Cambridge and the

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Speaker 2: International Backer Laureates, which I've heard referred to as IB

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Speaker 2: for FS reasons. So what are they and how do

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Speaker 2: they differ from in CEA?

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Speaker 4: Sure, so Cambridge is out of the UK, IB is

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Speaker 4: out of Switzerland, and you're right, the other two big

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Speaker 4: international qualifications that are used around the world, but also

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Speaker 4: a number of New Zealand schools are utilizing. So in Cambridge,

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Speaker 4: that's probably your most traditional So if you're thinking back

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Speaker 4: to sort of what it used to be like, it's

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Speaker 4: quite similar to what Cambridge is. You would normally in

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Speaker 4: your final two years of school. So the program runs

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Speaker 4: across the final two years of school, so you're year

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Speaker 4: twelve and year thirteen. Students are usually taking four maybe

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Speaker 4: five subjects in that and they are primarily assessed through

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Speaker 4: an end of year exam, although some subjects do have

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Speaker 4: some internal assessment component built into that, but you do

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Speaker 4: have far more of an exam focus. You know, you

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Speaker 4: pick the subjects that you're going to do and you

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Speaker 4: do the entirety of that subject, so you don't have

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Speaker 4: a subject made up of individual standards that you can

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Speaker 4: pick and choose on. You just sit that subject. International

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Speaker 4: Facalaureat I'd be in some way similar, but it's a

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Speaker 4: more holistic system. So again it runs over the final

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Speaker 4: two years of school, So it's a two year course

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Speaker 4: and it comprises a max of both external exams at

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Speaker 4: the end of your course as well as a number

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Speaker 4: of internal assessments. I think one of the key differences

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Speaker 4: between IV and Cambridge is that in ID you do

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Speaker 4: do more subjects, and you also are required to take

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Speaker 4: a range of different subjects. So for instance, you take

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Speaker 4: a science, you take maths, you take English, you learn

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Speaker 4: a language, you do a humanity or social science.

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Speaker 3: But you also have.

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Speaker 4: Learning that you do in activities that you do outside

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Speaker 4: of your sort of academic program.

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Speaker 3: So they have.

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Speaker 4: Something called the theory of Knowledge, which is really around

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Speaker 4: philosophy that all students take. All students are required to

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Speaker 4: do what they call CASS, which stands for Creativity Activity

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Speaker 4: in service, So you have to do something creative so

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Speaker 4: that might be music, it might be drama, it might

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Speaker 4: be dance. You have to do activity, which is some

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Speaker 4: sort of sport or physical activity, and some sort of

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Speaker 4: service activity. So you're getting quite a holistic, sort of

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Speaker 4: well rounded aspect to your education. And you also do

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Speaker 4: what they call the extended essay. You pick one of

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Speaker 4: the subjects that you're doing and you do an in

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Speaker 4: depth research project in it. So it is a very holistic,

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Speaker 4: broad qualification, right.

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Speaker 2: And when I asked, because I'm not from this land,

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Speaker 2: so I asked a few people around the office which

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Speaker 2: ones that they did are, ninety nine percent said that

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Speaker 2: they did n CAEA. And when I asked about the

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Speaker 2: Cambridge and IB a couple of comments were like, well,

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Speaker 2: they're just like kind of for rich schools or people

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Speaker 2: who want to do UNI.

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Speaker 3: At like Oxford or something. I mean, is that a

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Speaker 3: fair assessment? I mean, I think yes and no.

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Speaker 4: I mean, one thing I would say is that you

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Speaker 4: can get into universities around the world sitting in CEA.

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Speaker 4: So I wouldn't want anyone to think, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to be a up to go to

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Speaker 4: somewhere else to do my university. Because I did NCA.

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Speaker 4: That's absolutely not true, you can. I think you're right

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Speaker 4: in saying that in many cases it's your larger secondary

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Speaker 4: schools from you know, wealthier areas that are opting to

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Speaker 4: do these alternative qualifications. In the case of IB, that's

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Speaker 4: because it's actually really expensive to do IB for a

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Speaker 4: school to set up IB, and part of the reason

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Speaker 4: for that is that all teachers who are teaching IB

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Speaker 4: have to go through quite a rigorous training program in

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Speaker 4: order to be able to teach IB, and in most instances,

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Speaker 4: those training programs happen off shore, so schools are having

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Speaker 4: to fund teachers to go off shore to participate in

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Speaker 4: their training. But you're definitely right in that it is

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Speaker 4: largely our larger secondary schools from higher socioeconomic areas that

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Speaker 4: are opting to do these alternative pathways.

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Speaker 1: In CEA is still a good qualification. It's just not

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Speaker 1: consistent and it can be massively improved. And that's the key.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to stand here today and say, Lo,

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Speaker 1: the MCA is terrible. It's still a very good qualification.

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Speaker 1: Many students still end up in high quality universities all

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Speaker 1: over the world. Many people are still choosing it over

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Speaker 1: other qualifications, but there is a lot that we can

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Speaker 1: do to strengthen it, to make it more consistent, to

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Speaker 1: make parents understand it. I mean, why on earth can

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Speaker 1: we not go back to a markout of one hundred

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Speaker 1: for goodness sake. ABC, I've got my children coming home

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Speaker 1: saying I only had to answer two of the questions

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Speaker 1: to get excellent. But what do you mean you didn't

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Speaker 1: have to answer all of the questions? Oh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: just the excellence one.

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Speaker 3: What are the results like?

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Speaker 2: Is there any better?

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Speaker 4: That's a really hard question to answer, right, because what

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Speaker 4: we know is that in many of these schools actually

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Speaker 4: they retain INCA as well, So you have some students

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Speaker 4: doing nca you do have some students doing Cambridge or

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Speaker 4: International Baccalaureate, So it's really hard to make a direct comparison.

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Speaker 4: It's also really hard to compare results with the NCAA

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Speaker 4: with results actually in either of the other qualifications because

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Speaker 4: the way that their assessed is slightly different, So you

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Speaker 4: can't make a direct comparison.

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Speaker 2: I guess in terms of those three qualifications, would you

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Speaker 2: recommend one over the other or does it just depend

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Speaker 2: on the kid.

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Speaker 4: So I'm always a big advocate and just about anything

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Speaker 4: in education and saying you match it to the child.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I think IB could definitely suit some people.

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Speaker 4: But if you've got someone who has a particular interest

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Speaker 4: in certain subjects, he's actually really not going to suit

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Speaker 4: them because you're having to do a wide range of subjects,

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Speaker 4: you know, and that's where INCA can be really valuable,

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Speaker 4: because you can start to specialize in particular subjects. I

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Speaker 4: think the other thing that we haven't touched on that's

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Speaker 4: really critically important when we're thinking about any qualification system,

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Speaker 4: and particularly if we're thinking about well, what where do

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Speaker 4: we go next to New Zealand, is that alongside any

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Speaker 4: sort of more academically oriented qualification system, we also need

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Speaker 4: to make sure that we've got a really strong vocational

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Speaker 4: education and a training system running alongside that, because we

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Speaker 4: know that there are a number of children in our

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Speaker 4: school for whom that is the right pathway for them.

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Speaker 3: At the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: And this is something that I found interesting when talking

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Speaker 2: to a couple of the younger ones in the office

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Speaker 2: as well. Does it still seem like if you don't

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Speaker 2: do well in year thirteen that that is the end

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Speaker 2: of your life? You know that feeling of just say,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, is it the same? Because I remember where

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Speaker 2: it was year twelve back where I'm from, and I

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Speaker 2: remember getting my results back and there being a discrepancy

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Speaker 2: or something, and I, honestly, god, I thought, this is it.

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Speaker 2: This is the end. I'm never going to amount to

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Speaker 2: anything in my entire life.

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Speaker 3: Is that still drilled into kids these days. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: a really interesting question.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think the qualifications that you get at

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Speaker 4: the end of school are always going to be important

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Speaker 4: because you know, it's at that age that's sort of

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Speaker 4: the barrier or frontier between that and the next thing

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Speaker 4: that you're going to go on to do. And you know,

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Speaker 4: particularly for students who are wanting to go on to university,

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Speaker 4: then yeah, that is really important. But it's a really

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Speaker 4: interesting question to explore and to ask because we also

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Speaker 4: know that there are changing dynamics, and you know, there

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Speaker 4: are people around the world who are questioning more and

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Speaker 4: more the value of university and whether it's the right

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Speaker 4: pathway for different people to be pursuing. But I think

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Speaker 4: by and large, there is still a perception, definitely among

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Speaker 4: broader society that qualifications in school do matter, that they

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Speaker 4: do still stand for something.

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Speaker 2: And just lastly, Nina, if you could change anything about

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Speaker 2: the system tomorrow. So you've got Erica Stamford on the phone.

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Speaker 2: She's like, yes, Nina, I will do whatever you tell me.

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Speaker 2: I'll do it today. What's the first thing that you

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Speaker 2: would tackle?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think what you've got to do is

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Speaker 4: you've got to make sure that our qualification system is

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Speaker 4: being based off our curriculum. Right, in an ideal world,

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Speaker 4: what you do is you write a really great curriculum

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Speaker 4: and then you design an assessment system that actually enables

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Speaker 4: you to assess how well the students have progressed through

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Speaker 4: that particular curriculum. NCA hasn't actually worked like that. It

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Speaker 4: has operated distinct from the curriculum, in part because there

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Speaker 4: are a whole host of issues with the current curriculum,

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Speaker 4: although those are being addressed by the work that's currently

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Speaker 4: underway and redeveloping the curriculum. But essentially, what you have

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Speaker 4: is a qualification system and a set of standards that

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Speaker 4: are defining the curriculum as it is at the moment.

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Speaker 3: So we need to flip that.

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Speaker 4: We need to say, what's our curriculum, make sure it's

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Speaker 4: really rigorous and robust, and then design a qualification system

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Speaker 4: that enables us to reliably and validly test that.

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Speaker 2: Right, so what you've been learning during the year actually

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Speaker 2: shows up in the end of your exam.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think you know, one of the things

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Speaker 4: we could also do because we know we have an

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Speaker 4: issue with internal assessments at the moment with NCAA, and

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Speaker 4: we don't want to get rid of them completely.

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Speaker 3: We want to have certain.

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Speaker 4: Aspects, of course in a program that are internally assessed,

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Speaker 4: but we need to find a way to make that

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Speaker 4: internal assessment more robust, and there are a number of

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Speaker 4: ways that.

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Speaker 3: We could do that.

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Speaker 4: One is that you could say, actually, it's not the

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Speaker 4: classroom teachers that are going to be marking those internals.

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Speaker 4: They're all going to be centrally marked. And that's what

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Speaker 4: some of the other international qualification systems do. They don't

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Speaker 4: enable individual schools to mark their own students' work. They

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Speaker 4: send them out centrally and they're marked centrally. I think

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Speaker 4: the other thing we could do with our current system,

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Speaker 4: if we were to keep it the way it is,

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Speaker 4: is to actually not tell students their internal assessment grades

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Speaker 4: until the end of the year. Because that would then

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Speaker 4: force them to actually continue to engage in the learning

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Speaker 4: that they have to do right, And what we have

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Speaker 4: is students that basically say, oh, I've got all my credits,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to stop learning part.

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Speaker 3: Way through the year.

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Speaker 4: Well that's ridiculous. They're just losing out on all that

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Speaker 4: potentially valuable learning. So we could find a way to

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Speaker 4: try and stop that from happening as well.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Nina, my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz.

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Speaker 3: The Front Page is produced by.

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Speaker 2: Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on

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Speaker 2: Monday for another look behind the headlines.