1 00:00:06,707 --> 00:00:10,467 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:14,027 Speaker 1: from newstalk ZEDB. The yellow card is going to be 3 00:00:14,147 --> 00:00:15,827 Speaker 1: upgraded to a red card. 4 00:00:16,107 --> 00:00:19,027 Speaker 2: The high degree of danger, no clear and obvious mitigation. 5 00:00:19,467 --> 00:00:23,707 Speaker 1: Okay, Wayne Barnes shows a red card to the touchline. 6 00:00:24,027 --> 00:00:28,307 Speaker 2: Sam Kaine head in his hands, high tackle, the all 7 00:00:28,427 --> 00:00:30,427 Speaker 2: Blake Skipper set off. 8 00:00:30,907 --> 00:00:31,107 Speaker 3: Yeah. 9 00:00:31,187 --> 00:00:35,067 Speaker 2: Controversial proposal which would allow teams to replace a red 10 00:00:35,147 --> 00:00:38,587 Speaker 2: carded player after twenty minutes, has moved a step closer 11 00:00:38,627 --> 00:00:42,307 Speaker 2: to global implementation. Will Rugby confirmed this week. It's one 12 00:00:42,307 --> 00:00:44,827 Speaker 2: of several new law amendments which have been trialed in 13 00:00:44,867 --> 00:00:49,267 Speaker 2: some domestic and international competitions, including our own, and it's 14 00:00:49,307 --> 00:00:53,347 Speaker 2: been put forward for use globally. Nigel Owens is one 15 00:00:53,387 --> 00:00:56,307 Speaker 2: of the best referees in international rugby history and joins 16 00:00:56,347 --> 00:00:58,707 Speaker 2: us now to discuss this. Nigel, thanks for your time 17 00:00:58,707 --> 00:01:02,107 Speaker 2: across New Zealand. What is your overall view, first of all, 18 00:01:02,547 --> 00:01:06,307 Speaker 2: on the proposal to introduce a twenty minute red card 19 00:01:06,467 --> 00:01:07,707 Speaker 2: to international rugby. 20 00:01:09,067 --> 00:01:10,947 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you have to take a step back 21 00:01:10,947 --> 00:01:13,587 Speaker 3: to the ball. I'm trying to understand why people are 22 00:01:13,587 --> 00:01:15,587 Speaker 3: calling for this, why it's been in place in the 23 00:01:15,627 --> 00:01:21,427 Speaker 3: Rugby Championship and why it's coming into trial globally. And 24 00:01:21,867 --> 00:01:24,827 Speaker 3: the issue is, which is an understandable reason, is a 25 00:01:24,827 --> 00:01:27,467 Speaker 3: lot of people are getting frustrated with players being sent 26 00:01:27,547 --> 00:01:29,987 Speaker 3: off earlier in the game and then they feel that 27 00:01:30,067 --> 00:01:33,787 Speaker 3: the game is spoilt when you have fourteen against fifteen 28 00:01:33,987 --> 00:01:37,987 Speaker 3: or thirteen against fourteen under thirteen against fifteen. So that's 29 00:01:38,027 --> 00:01:40,627 Speaker 3: the reason why this has been bought in. Now the 30 00:01:40,707 --> 00:01:44,307 Speaker 3: concerns and the worry that I have is it's not 31 00:01:44,547 --> 00:01:47,267 Speaker 3: going to deal with the actual issues. And the actual 32 00:01:47,307 --> 00:01:50,947 Speaker 3: issues are the player safety. When we are still having 33 00:01:50,987 --> 00:01:57,707 Speaker 3: a lot of head collisions, We're still having players making 34 00:01:57,787 --> 00:02:01,107 Speaker 3: up right tackles, shoulder making contact with the head. We're 35 00:02:01,147 --> 00:02:06,067 Speaker 3: still having really reckless, dangerous playouts in the contact area. 36 00:02:06,387 --> 00:02:08,867 Speaker 3: We still have in US. We haven't seen a change 37 00:02:09,347 --> 00:02:12,627 Speaker 3: of player behavior despite the red cards. Now, if you 38 00:02:12,667 --> 00:02:15,107 Speaker 3: go back quite a few years, you remember a lot 39 00:02:15,107 --> 00:02:17,587 Speaker 3: of issues with contact in the air. Then we have 40 00:02:17,707 --> 00:02:20,867 Speaker 3: a lot of issues with spear tackling, and then what happened. 41 00:02:20,947 --> 00:02:23,747 Speaker 3: The referees went hard, it was a red card and 42 00:02:23,787 --> 00:02:27,147 Speaker 3: we change player behavior. But that hasn't happened this time. 43 00:02:27,547 --> 00:02:30,387 Speaker 3: And the issue is now we're still getting red cards, 44 00:02:30,867 --> 00:02:33,147 Speaker 3: and therefore a lot of people have been calling in 45 00:02:33,507 --> 00:02:35,467 Speaker 3: for a twenty minute red card so that it doesn't 46 00:02:35,507 --> 00:02:38,067 Speaker 3: spoil the game. Now, the issue that I have is this, 47 00:02:38,867 --> 00:02:42,467 Speaker 3: a red card in rugby should only be for an 48 00:02:42,467 --> 00:02:46,547 Speaker 3: act of total thugary or total reckless. Yes, and what 49 00:02:46,587 --> 00:02:49,107 Speaker 3: I mean by that is a player's defenses on the 50 00:02:49,107 --> 00:02:55,067 Speaker 3: ground and then you got charging in shoulder first, head first, 51 00:02:55,107 --> 00:02:57,507 Speaker 3: split into the player, contact with the head. This reckless, 52 00:02:57,547 --> 00:03:00,867 Speaker 3: it's really dangerous. You don't have any care whatsoever about 53 00:03:00,867 --> 00:03:03,907 Speaker 3: the player's safety who you are charging into. That should 54 00:03:03,947 --> 00:03:07,747 Speaker 3: be a red card and then you should not be replaced. 55 00:03:08,547 --> 00:03:10,707 Speaker 3: The issue that I have then, and I think this 56 00:03:10,787 --> 00:03:13,707 Speaker 3: is the issue that they're not dealing with, is if 57 00:03:13,707 --> 00:03:16,707 Speaker 3: you have a player and we've seen it, who is 58 00:03:17,467 --> 00:03:21,227 Speaker 3: unlucky to be sent off it's accidental, the dynamics of 59 00:03:21,267 --> 00:03:24,107 Speaker 3: the game of change this last second and everything's going 60 00:03:24,147 --> 00:03:26,867 Speaker 3: to that's a bit tough, that's a bit harsh. Then 61 00:03:26,867 --> 00:03:29,027 Speaker 3: they shouldn't be a red card. So what I feel 62 00:03:29,027 --> 00:03:33,107 Speaker 3: they should be doing is actually dealing with the issue itself. 63 00:03:33,747 --> 00:03:37,947 Speaker 3: Act of fugary active recklessness where you've got no concern 64 00:03:37,987 --> 00:03:40,707 Speaker 3: about the player safety, that I'm sorry. A red card 65 00:03:40,747 --> 00:03:43,427 Speaker 3: you off and you stay off. And if then it's 66 00:03:44,267 --> 00:03:48,467 Speaker 3: an issue where it's it's carelessness, it's accidental. You try 67 00:03:48,507 --> 00:03:50,787 Speaker 3: to do everything right, but the movement of the game, 68 00:03:50,907 --> 00:03:54,387 Speaker 3: the players affected thing in the last second, then that 69 00:03:54,467 --> 00:03:57,347 Speaker 3: shouldn't even be a red card. So what I feel 70 00:03:57,387 --> 00:04:00,347 Speaker 3: is happening is it's just papering over the cracks to 71 00:04:00,547 --> 00:04:04,147 Speaker 3: try and keep everybody happy, and in the long run, 72 00:04:04,427 --> 00:04:06,907 Speaker 3: you're not going to keep everybody happy because you're still 73 00:04:06,947 --> 00:04:10,387 Speaker 3: going to see these red cards with that, which are harsh, 74 00:04:10,427 --> 00:04:11,947 Speaker 3: and you're also then going to see a lot of 75 00:04:11,987 --> 00:04:14,227 Speaker 3: people and there's a lot of concern about then we 76 00:04:14,347 --> 00:04:17,547 Speaker 3: are not then being strong enough with the deterrent to 77 00:04:17,787 --> 00:04:22,787 Speaker 3: change players' behavior and getting rid of this need less, dangerous, 78 00:04:22,907 --> 00:04:27,387 Speaker 3: reckless high tackles or up right tackles or clear out. 79 00:04:27,507 --> 00:04:30,827 Speaker 3: So this is understandable why people are calling for it, 80 00:04:31,587 --> 00:04:34,707 Speaker 3: but my concern is they're not actually dealing with the 81 00:04:34,747 --> 00:04:36,947 Speaker 3: co issue itself, and that's why I'm not a big 82 00:04:37,027 --> 00:04:39,747 Speaker 3: fan of the twenty minute red card. I'd rather see 83 00:04:39,787 --> 00:04:43,747 Speaker 3: them bring it in a red card for total recklessness, 84 00:04:43,787 --> 00:04:47,227 Speaker 3: total fabruary. If anything is accidentally or unlucky, then it 85 00:04:47,227 --> 00:04:49,827 Speaker 3: shouldn't be a red card in the first place, and 86 00:04:49,867 --> 00:04:53,187 Speaker 3: then we will look after the player safety and people 87 00:04:53,227 --> 00:04:55,547 Speaker 3: who are sent off are sent off because they totally 88 00:04:55,627 --> 00:04:57,867 Speaker 3: deserve to be sent off and not because of an 89 00:04:57,867 --> 00:04:59,427 Speaker 3: accidental dynamic of the game. 90 00:04:59,747 --> 00:05:03,307 Speaker 2: That is just such absolute common scenes. Now your absolute 91 00:05:03,387 --> 00:05:06,827 Speaker 2: common scenes. Do you think anybody's listening at w Rugby, 92 00:05:06,867 --> 00:05:10,427 Speaker 2: because surely a raid card can't be seen as harsh 93 00:05:10,787 --> 00:05:11,467 Speaker 2: or unlucky. 94 00:05:13,067 --> 00:05:14,787 Speaker 3: No, it shouldn't be in us. That's not what I mean. 95 00:05:14,787 --> 00:05:17,147 Speaker 3: You know, with a red card is your head, but somebody, 96 00:05:17,187 --> 00:05:19,787 Speaker 3: you punch somebody from behind, you kick somebody the head 97 00:05:19,827 --> 00:05:22,267 Speaker 3: on the floor, that's what a red card should be. 98 00:05:22,507 --> 00:05:25,387 Speaker 3: Or as I said, you going up you was charging 99 00:05:25,387 --> 00:05:28,747 Speaker 3: in upright with a forearms swinging into somebody's head, or 100 00:05:28,787 --> 00:05:31,867 Speaker 3: a leading with a shoulder into an upright tackle or 101 00:05:31,867 --> 00:05:34,707 Speaker 3: a clearout, which is total recklessness. That's what a red 102 00:05:34,747 --> 00:05:37,107 Speaker 3: card should be. And when you're looking at incidents and 103 00:05:37,147 --> 00:05:40,147 Speaker 3: we've seen him over the last few years where that's 104 00:05:40,187 --> 00:05:42,747 Speaker 3: a bit unlucky. Yes, he was upright, but he was 105 00:05:42,827 --> 00:05:45,227 Speaker 3: trying to make and just remember the issue with this 106 00:05:45,307 --> 00:05:49,547 Speaker 3: as well. You see, upright tackers are not illegal if 107 00:05:49,547 --> 00:05:51,947 Speaker 3: you go in and upright tackle somebody. So what you 108 00:05:51,987 --> 00:05:53,867 Speaker 3: tend to have now the game has changed. One player 109 00:05:53,867 --> 00:05:56,067 Speaker 3: will go low, the other player will go high to 110 00:05:56,147 --> 00:05:59,467 Speaker 3: try and prevent an offload or rip the ball or 111 00:05:59,467 --> 00:06:02,707 Speaker 3: wrap the arms. We can't offload to another player. That 112 00:06:02,747 --> 00:06:05,867 Speaker 3: action is not illegal. There's nothing illegal in that. It 113 00:06:05,987 --> 00:06:09,427 Speaker 3: only comes an offense if you get it wrong and 114 00:06:09,507 --> 00:06:13,427 Speaker 3: you make contact with a player's head illegally. So what 115 00:06:13,467 --> 00:06:15,547 Speaker 3: they're trying to do, they're trying to get players to 116 00:06:15,627 --> 00:06:19,747 Speaker 3: change behavior without actually nothing in law to say you 117 00:06:19,907 --> 00:06:22,227 Speaker 3: have to do it. And this is when we are 118 00:06:22,307 --> 00:06:27,787 Speaker 3: landing up then with harsh red cards. We've seen plenty 119 00:06:27,867 --> 00:06:30,027 Speaker 3: in the World Cup. Some of them were totally deserved, 120 00:06:30,467 --> 00:06:33,387 Speaker 3: others were, oh god, this is a bit harsh. This 121 00:06:33,467 --> 00:06:35,947 Speaker 3: is unlucky. For that reason, it shouldn't be a red 122 00:06:35,947 --> 00:06:38,307 Speaker 3: card in the first place. And so that's what I'm 123 00:06:38,667 --> 00:06:42,467 Speaker 3: my concern is we're not dealing with the actual issues here, 124 00:06:42,507 --> 00:06:43,787 Speaker 3: and that's what I like to see them do. 125 00:06:44,547 --> 00:06:47,827 Speaker 2: So, while the red card threshold is where it is, 126 00:06:47,867 --> 00:06:52,387 Speaker 2: while the rules are as they are written, isn't the 127 00:06:52,427 --> 00:06:55,227 Speaker 2: twenty minute red card in some ways a good idea 128 00:06:55,387 --> 00:06:59,547 Speaker 2: to give redress to a harsh or unlucky dismissal. 129 00:07:01,627 --> 00:07:04,147 Speaker 3: Well, that is a fair point in what you say 130 00:07:04,547 --> 00:07:08,787 Speaker 3: in that, But then I don't think it's it's not 131 00:07:08,827 --> 00:07:11,147 Speaker 3: a prevention, it's it's not a deterrent. And then if 132 00:07:11,147 --> 00:07:13,107 Speaker 3: you look at look at some of me being sent 133 00:07:13,147 --> 00:07:15,987 Speaker 3: off and on then for twenty minutes and being replaced, 134 00:07:15,987 --> 00:07:18,667 Speaker 3: so that team they're unlucky to guess somebody sent off. 135 00:07:19,307 --> 00:07:21,027 Speaker 3: I suppose an example, you could look at Sam Kaine 136 00:07:21,067 --> 00:07:23,667 Speaker 3: in the World Cup final. For me, a very unlucky 137 00:07:23,667 --> 00:07:26,707 Speaker 3: player to be sent off, so you have an unlucky 138 00:07:27,107 --> 00:07:30,227 Speaker 3: red card. Okay, for all of the guidelines guidance tell 139 00:07:30,267 --> 00:07:32,027 Speaker 3: you you may well end up with the red cards. 140 00:07:32,107 --> 00:07:35,187 Speaker 3: It's a harsh it's an unlucky one. Then compare that, 141 00:07:35,827 --> 00:07:37,387 Speaker 3: or it doesn't have to do that. Don't compare that 142 00:07:37,987 --> 00:07:41,067 Speaker 3: type of red card, which we call an unlucky harsh one. 143 00:07:41,547 --> 00:07:46,707 Speaker 3: Compare that then with a total act of thug, a 144 00:07:46,747 --> 00:07:50,147 Speaker 3: total lack of recklessness where you went flying into that 145 00:07:50,507 --> 00:07:53,987 Speaker 3: into that truck leading with a showler straight into player's head. 146 00:07:54,227 --> 00:07:58,387 Speaker 3: It's a red card. You're off. Yet both are treated 147 00:07:58,467 --> 00:08:00,707 Speaker 3: the same, and it shouldn't be the case. So both 148 00:08:00,747 --> 00:08:03,547 Speaker 3: teams now back up to fifteen men where one of 149 00:08:03,587 --> 00:08:08,707 Speaker 3: them was accidental unlucky, the other one was totally deserved 150 00:08:08,747 --> 00:08:11,627 Speaker 3: to go. Nobody in the world is complaining, yet they're 151 00:08:11,667 --> 00:08:15,307 Speaker 3: back to to fifteen men. Such a me that that is, 152 00:08:15,547 --> 00:08:18,347 Speaker 3: that is not right. So we need to look at 153 00:08:18,627 --> 00:08:22,147 Speaker 3: exactly what a red card should be. And if there's 154 00:08:22,227 --> 00:08:26,147 Speaker 3: any case of, oh, this is you know, this is 155 00:08:26,227 --> 00:08:28,827 Speaker 3: just unlucky, and it shouldn't be a red card. You know, 156 00:08:29,027 --> 00:08:31,187 Speaker 3: the fact you get sent off. Because if you're sent 157 00:08:31,227 --> 00:08:33,947 Speaker 3: off now for charging into ruck and catching play in 158 00:08:33,947 --> 00:08:37,587 Speaker 3: the head, and then all of a sudden you plead guilty, 159 00:08:37,747 --> 00:08:40,307 Speaker 3: they say I'm sorry and I was guilty. Reduce the 160 00:08:40,307 --> 00:08:44,187 Speaker 3: sanction by two weeks. And then you do a tackle school, 161 00:08:44,307 --> 00:08:46,627 Speaker 3: tiss your tackle which you've been taught attacked since you 162 00:08:46,667 --> 00:08:49,627 Speaker 3: were ten years of age. You go to a tackle school, 163 00:08:49,707 --> 00:08:51,547 Speaker 3: reduce it by another week, and all of a sudden 164 00:08:51,747 --> 00:08:54,067 Speaker 3: you're down to two or three weeks. If you get 165 00:08:54,147 --> 00:08:58,347 Speaker 3: sent off for that total act of recklessness, you should 166 00:08:58,387 --> 00:09:00,587 Speaker 3: be getting six or eight weeks, and there shouldn't be 167 00:09:00,667 --> 00:09:03,787 Speaker 3: nothing of it, because that's the only way that player 168 00:09:03,827 --> 00:09:07,227 Speaker 3: will learn, or that's the only way we're going to 169 00:09:07,307 --> 00:09:09,587 Speaker 3: enforce the player behavior. So there's a lot of other 170 00:09:09,627 --> 00:09:11,787 Speaker 3: things I think we can do to deal with the 171 00:09:11,827 --> 00:09:15,227 Speaker 3: situation we're in rather than just picking over the cracks 172 00:09:15,507 --> 00:09:17,667 Speaker 3: with this twenty minute red card. 173 00:09:18,027 --> 00:09:21,147 Speaker 2: In your experience, nogele, does a game between a team 174 00:09:21,147 --> 00:09:25,187 Speaker 2: with fifteen and a team with fourteen automatically become a 175 00:09:25,227 --> 00:09:26,547 Speaker 2: reduced spectacle. 176 00:09:27,827 --> 00:09:29,627 Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think so, not all the time. 177 00:09:29,867 --> 00:09:31,907 Speaker 3: A lot of times it does do, because you if 178 00:09:31,907 --> 00:09:35,267 Speaker 3: you're playing against you know, fifteen men and you're down 179 00:09:35,307 --> 00:09:37,987 Speaker 3: to fourteen and you're of equal ability as a side, 180 00:09:38,027 --> 00:09:39,787 Speaker 3: and that's the result could have gone either way, then 181 00:09:40,107 --> 00:09:42,307 Speaker 3: it is going to be of an advantage. Doesn't work 182 00:09:42,307 --> 00:09:44,787 Speaker 3: all away. We still have some great games. You go 183 00:09:44,867 --> 00:09:46,787 Speaker 3: back to the twenty eleven World Cup. I was sitting 184 00:09:46,787 --> 00:09:48,427 Speaker 3: next door to a good friend of mine, Bryce Laurea 185 00:09:48,507 --> 00:09:51,947 Speaker 3: is watching Wales France where Sam Warburton got sent off 186 00:09:51,947 --> 00:09:54,467 Speaker 3: in that and I haven't done it because of Welshman. 187 00:09:54,667 --> 00:09:57,667 Speaker 3: I have no doubt that contributed to, you know, Wales 188 00:09:57,707 --> 00:10:00,027 Speaker 3: losing a semi final where they could have won it anyway, 189 00:10:00,387 --> 00:10:03,307 Speaker 3: but it did made things much more difficult. So on 190 00:10:03,467 --> 00:10:06,907 Speaker 3: the most when you were down to four fourteen men, 191 00:10:06,947 --> 00:10:11,307 Speaker 3: particularly for a period of maybe sixty five seventy seventy 192 00:10:11,307 --> 00:10:14,827 Speaker 3: minutes fifty minutes. Then I think it does take its toll. 193 00:10:15,347 --> 00:10:19,347 Speaker 3: Not always, but on occasions it does. And on occasions 194 00:10:19,387 --> 00:10:21,187 Speaker 3: we've seen great game of rugby on the side of 195 00:10:21,267 --> 00:10:24,107 Speaker 3: fourteen men actually winning, but I think they are more 196 00:10:24,107 --> 00:10:27,187 Speaker 3: of a case of occasionally rather than than the often. 197 00:10:27,267 --> 00:10:29,547 Speaker 3: So I think there is I think you know, down 198 00:10:29,547 --> 00:10:31,627 Speaker 3: to forty men, I think there's effect sort of. It 199 00:10:31,627 --> 00:10:33,747 Speaker 3: may affect your tactics as well. You may become now 200 00:10:33,787 --> 00:10:35,747 Speaker 3: a bit more if you're in the lead, you're going 201 00:10:35,787 --> 00:10:37,747 Speaker 3: to become maybe a bit more defensive. You're not going 202 00:10:37,787 --> 00:10:39,507 Speaker 3: to risk anythings. You're going to hold on to the lead, 203 00:10:39,587 --> 00:10:41,667 Speaker 3: so you can you can change the style of dynamics 204 00:10:41,667 --> 00:10:44,147 Speaker 3: of the game as well, which makes it much more 205 00:10:44,147 --> 00:10:46,587 Speaker 3: difficult and which can take away from the spectacle. But 206 00:10:47,067 --> 00:10:49,467 Speaker 3: we also have seen game with players sent off which 207 00:10:49,467 --> 00:10:51,747 Speaker 3: have been great games of rugby as well. But on 208 00:10:51,867 --> 00:10:55,267 Speaker 3: the most I think it does disadvantage of because its just. 209 00:10:55,227 --> 00:10:58,187 Speaker 2: To finish nodule. The common scenes that you've talked, as 210 00:10:58,307 --> 00:11:01,747 Speaker 2: you know, in the last ten minutes is absolute common scenes. 211 00:11:01,907 --> 00:11:03,627 Speaker 2: Is anybody at World Rugby listening. 212 00:11:06,427 --> 00:11:08,187 Speaker 3: You know, I'm not the only I do some work 213 00:11:08,187 --> 00:11:09,867 Speaker 3: for World rug and I think majority of people in 214 00:11:09,867 --> 00:11:12,467 Speaker 3: the world rugby they do a good job, you know, 215 00:11:13,027 --> 00:11:15,427 Speaker 3: on the most with the game to look at globally, 216 00:11:16,027 --> 00:11:18,947 Speaker 3: you have different countries, different dynamics from all over the 217 00:11:18,947 --> 00:11:21,867 Speaker 3: world coming together. It's not an easy job and the 218 00:11:21,907 --> 00:11:24,707 Speaker 3: most they do a very decent, decent job. But I'm 219 00:11:24,747 --> 00:11:26,867 Speaker 3: not involved in I was not involved in this process. 220 00:11:26,907 --> 00:11:29,587 Speaker 3: I'm not involved in in the process of law changing 221 00:11:30,147 --> 00:11:31,827 Speaker 3: or making at all. But there are good people who 222 00:11:31,827 --> 00:11:34,387 Speaker 3: are involved in that process. But but I'm not I'm 223 00:11:34,387 --> 00:11:36,267 Speaker 3: a part of that of that process. No, I'm not. 224 00:11:36,547 --> 00:11:39,507 Speaker 2: All right, Nigel, It's been really instructive listening to your chat. 225 00:11:39,547 --> 00:11:41,347 Speaker 2: Thanks for taking air coll We really appreciate it. 226 00:11:41,587 --> 00:11:43,267 Speaker 3: Yeah, my pleasure. All the best, All. 227 00:11:43,147 --> 00:11:45,147 Speaker 2: The best to you too, Nigel. There you go, Nigel 228 00:11:45,147 --> 00:11:50,787 Speaker 2: awance Worth eleven minutes of absolute common scenes. Imagine if 229 00:11:50,827 --> 00:11:54,827 Speaker 2: Nagel Aowans was sitting around whatever table it was when 230 00:11:54,867 --> 00:11:58,827 Speaker 2: I decided about the you know what the red card 231 00:11:58,907 --> 00:12:02,467 Speaker 2: threshold would be. I'm almost certainly you've got a view 232 00:12:02,467 --> 00:12:04,227 Speaker 2: on this. O eight one hundred and eighty eighteen eighty 233 00:12:04,347 --> 00:12:06,107 Speaker 2: anything you want to pick up on there, because here's 234 00:12:06,147 --> 00:12:10,787 Speaker 2: the problem. In their quest to protect the head, which 235 00:12:10,827 --> 00:12:13,587 Speaker 2: by the way, is the right thing to do, world 236 00:12:13,667 --> 00:12:17,907 Speaker 2: rugby have simply gone too low with their red card threshold. 237 00:12:19,347 --> 00:12:22,027 Speaker 2: They've tried to change behavior and tackle technique by making 238 00:12:22,387 --> 00:12:25,587 Speaker 2: the consequences of not getting it right more severe ie 239 00:12:26,107 --> 00:12:28,707 Speaker 2: a red card, and as Nigelan's has pointed out, player 240 00:12:28,747 --> 00:12:33,387 Speaker 2: behavior hasn't really changed, because how can you change being 241 00:12:33,427 --> 00:12:37,227 Speaker 2: in the wrong place by accident? And now red cards 242 00:12:37,227 --> 00:12:39,387 Speaker 2: are being given out when they shouldn't be. We've all 243 00:12:39,427 --> 00:12:42,987 Speaker 2: seen it, and we're now at the point where a 244 00:12:43,107 --> 00:12:47,227 Speaker 2: red card in rugby can be described as harsh or 245 00:12:47,387 --> 00:12:52,867 Speaker 2: unfair or unlucky. That should never ever happen. If someone 246 00:12:52,947 --> 00:12:56,867 Speaker 2: is sent off, there should be very little in the 247 00:12:56,867 --> 00:12:59,587 Speaker 2: way of dispute about it. It should be clear and obvious. 248 00:13:00,307 --> 00:13:04,307 Speaker 2: And nobody, not a single person, is suggesting that if 249 00:13:04,347 --> 00:13:07,387 Speaker 2: a player commits s where is foul play on the 250 00:13:07,467 --> 00:13:10,947 Speaker 2: rugby field and has given a red card, that he 251 00:13:10,947 --> 00:13:14,987 Speaker 2: should be able to be replaced. I'm talking outright thuggery 252 00:13:15,267 --> 00:13:17,187 Speaker 2: or recklessness, as niger Owen's called it. 253 00:13:17,227 --> 00:13:17,427 Speaker 3: There. 254 00:13:17,547 --> 00:13:20,067 Speaker 2: If someone does that, their team should suffer the consequences 255 00:13:20,107 --> 00:13:25,267 Speaker 2: go down to fourteen and stay at fourteen. But if 256 00:13:25,307 --> 00:13:27,707 Speaker 2: a player makes head on head contact by accident or 257 00:13:27,707 --> 00:13:30,467 Speaker 2: by circumstance, well, first of all, it shouldn't be a 258 00:13:30,547 --> 00:13:33,827 Speaker 2: red card, simple as that. Nigelones even said that Sam 259 00:13:33,907 --> 00:13:36,787 Speaker 2: Kaine's red card and the Rugby World Cup Final last 260 00:13:36,827 --> 00:13:40,827 Speaker 2: year was harsh and unlucky. The red card threshold's in 261 00:13:40,827 --> 00:13:45,707 Speaker 2: the wrong place. But until that gets changed, which will 262 00:13:45,707 --> 00:13:49,467 Speaker 2: take ages. And while the rules are what they are, 263 00:13:50,347 --> 00:13:53,947 Speaker 2: you have to have a twenty minute red card. If 264 00:13:53,987 --> 00:13:56,227 Speaker 2: a bloke sent off of something beyond his control or 265 00:13:56,267 --> 00:13:59,267 Speaker 2: because of the low threshold for red cards, he needs 266 00:13:59,307 --> 00:14:03,427 Speaker 2: to be able to be replaced. Because, as we've said 267 00:14:03,547 --> 00:14:07,307 Speaker 2: so many times, in these days of bat for engagement 268 00:14:07,387 --> 00:14:11,867 Speaker 2: and battling for eyeballs, a lopsided contest just will not 269 00:14:11,987 --> 00:14:18,547 Speaker 2: cut it. Fans will say, nap, not interested, not interested 270 00:14:18,547 --> 00:14:21,667 Speaker 2: in that. I don't want to watch a lopsided contest 271 00:14:22,027 --> 00:14:25,227 Speaker 2: simply because the red card threshold is in the wrong place. 272 00:14:26,187 --> 00:14:29,387 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, Listen live 273 00:14:29,507 --> 00:14:32,787 Speaker 1: to news Talk said B weekends from midday, or follow 274 00:14:32,827 --> 00:14:34,427 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.