1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 3: Presented by The New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: The thirtieth UN Climate Conference begins this week. 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 3: Nations will gather in Belem, Brazil for COP thirty. And 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 3: while the. 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: Trump administration isn't intending to send anyone, the US could 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: still become the thorn in any deals side. So as 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 2: the world's brightest climate mines converge on the city that 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: sits just on the outskirts of the Amazon rainforest, experts 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: asking whether anything substantial will come from these negotiations. Today 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: on the Front Page, University of Otago Associate Professor Daniel 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: Kingston is with us to discuss how important COP is. 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 3: And why we should care. 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: So, Daniel, tell me what is COP thirty. 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 4: So cop COP stands for Conference of the Parties. So 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 4: just to back up a bit about what that means. 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety two, at the Earth Summit in Rio, 20 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 4: most of the world's countries got together and signed a 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 4: climate agreement called the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 4: and so all countries in the world signed up to 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 4: that and since that, since that treaty was signed, the 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 4: signatories to that treaty have met every year since, and 25 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 4: so that's a conference of the party who has been 26 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 4: COP one, COP two, COP three and so on, and 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 4: we're at thirty. The aim of that initial treaty back 28 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety two was to prevent dangerous human interference 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 4: with the climate system. That sounds great, but was just 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 4: an intention. They didn't actually define what dangerous climate change 31 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 4: was or how to prevent it. So the meetings since 32 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 4: have been about trying to kind of, you know, make 33 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 4: those definitions. What is dangerous climate change? How ambitious should 34 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 4: we be, who should take the lead, who should should 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 4: people some countries do more, do less? You know, how 36 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 4: can we prevent dangerous climate change? So that's what these 37 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 4: these meetings are all about. 38 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: Given we've been concerned, at least a little bit concern 39 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 2: for decades now about the effects of climate change on 40 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 2: our earth. Does it worry you that the UN has 41 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: now said it's virtually impossible to keep the international target 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: of limiting global warming of one point five degrees celsius. 43 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty concerning. There are about kind of five 44 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 4: or six or seven years go now. There was a 45 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 4: special report by the Intergovernmental Panel on climate change, looking 46 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 4: at kind of what dangerous climate change might be, and 47 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 4: in particular looking at the threshold of one point five 48 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 4: degree warming and two degree warming, and when we start 49 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 4: to get above that one point five degree level is 50 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 4: when we start to see some of the more serious 51 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: impacts of climate change. So, according to the Paris Agreement 52 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 4: which resulted from COP twenty one in twenty fifteen, I 53 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 4: think there was an agreement from the world's countries that 54 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 4: we would try to limit climate change to below two 55 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 4: degrees or preferably at one point five degrees. So for 56 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 4: now this report to come out to say that basically 57 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 4: we've just about missed the boat, it's hugely concerning, Yes, is. 58 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: There any way of backtracking or do you reckon that's it? 59 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 4: To meet this goal our emissions as they were in 60 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, would we need to cut by more than 61 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 4: half to stop us reaching that one point five threshold 62 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 4: by twenty thirty five That if you kind of think 63 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 4: about the way the world's set up at the moment, 64 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 4: the kind of the political environment, it's really not going 65 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 4: to happen, almost certainly. And so that's that's kind of 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 4: the conclusions of this report. But then you know, thinking 67 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 4: after that, it is possible to kind of pull things 68 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 4: back on track. Okay, just because we've you know, we 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 4: may end up breaching that threshold, it doesn't mean that 70 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 4: we can't pull it back to below that threshold at 71 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 4: some point in the future. Right, The key thing is 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 4: how far we're going to overshoot and how long that 73 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 4: overshoot is going to last. For the more action we take, 74 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 4: the quicker we take it, the less that overshoot is 75 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 4: going to be, and. 76 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: What kind of things can be down I guess from 77 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: a larger governmental level to a smaller level. I mean, 78 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: is me washing my yogurt caps before putting them in 79 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: the recycling bin, doing anything to get us below that level. 80 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's pretty much a linear relationship between more 81 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 4: carbon in the atmosphere and more global warming. So from 82 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: that sense, yeah, everything really does make a difference, you know, 83 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 4: whether it's just like turning off a light, you know, 84 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 4: when you leave a room, whether that's driving your car less, 85 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 4: taking one fewer international flight, you know, right up to 86 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 4: the kind of the top of government decisions around you know, 87 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 4: national level emissions. It all makes a difference, and no 88 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 4: one's powerless even if it might seem kind of trivial, 89 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 4: you know, like recycling versus chucking out your yogurt pots. 90 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the significance of COP thirty being held in Brazil? 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 4: There's some symbolism from it, I suppose, So as I 92 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 4: mentioned that first global climate treaty, the UNFCCC, was signed 93 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 4: in Rio in Brazil, So there's some history of hosting 94 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 4: successful major international conferences in Brazil. And obviously it's home 95 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 4: to the Amazon rainforest and majority of that rainforest, which 96 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 4: is the biggest rainforest rainforest area in the planet, and 97 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 4: it's hugely important from you know, from a biodiversity perspective, 98 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: but also from the climate system. It's so big that 99 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 4: it effectively generates its own climate and also has an 100 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 4: influence on the global climate system. So when we think 101 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 4: about tropical rainforest loss, we're actually influencing the global climate 102 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: system as that system kind of shrinks and becomes degraded. 103 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of yeah, I guess, symbolism from 104 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: holding it there. 105 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: And that information that we know about the Amazon is 106 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: that while we were planting so many trees a few 107 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: years back, wasn't it something like we were going to 108 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: plant like a million trees or something. 109 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not unrelated. So as a plant grows, it 110 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: sucks out carbon from the atmosphere. So in theory, right, 111 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 4: the more trees you plant, the more carbon you get 112 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 4: out of the atmosphere. And so this country and others 113 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 4: do use that sort of kind of a forestation process 114 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: to meet some of their climate goals. It's not as 115 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 4: simple as that, you know. It depends what happens once 116 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 4: that tree is finished growing, right, if you chop it 117 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 4: up and burn it, then you're just putting that carbon 118 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 4: back into the atmosphere, so that there's kind of not 119 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 4: so much of an overall wind there. Old old growth, 120 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 4: existing forests, you know, and native trees are often much 121 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 4: more important kind of preserving what we've got. There's a 122 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 4: huge amount of carbon locked up in the Amazon rainforest, 123 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: and the system as a whole sucks out carbon from 124 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 4: the atmosphere at the moment, so it's holding back the 125 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: level of climate change that has happened. But as it 126 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: starts to shrink and as it starts to get degraded, 127 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 4: it has the potential to switch to a carbon source. 128 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 4: Right when you chop down those trees, when you change land, 129 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: use that area starts being a net emitter of carbon 130 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 4: instead of a net absorber. So yeah, dancing trees is good, 131 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 4: but it's not quite that simple. 132 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: Looking around the world, what other governments have weakened existing 133 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: legislated domestic climate targets? 134 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 5: The reality is is that you know, we are reasssing 135 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 5: on all countries are continually reassissing the target. So this 136 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 5: specific So meny to your question because every country has 137 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: different mixes. And again, as I see New Zealand's mix 138 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 5: is very different. 139 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate that our missions profile is very different to 140 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: countries that aren't is relying on agriculture and don't have 141 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: the renewable energy source. 142 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 4: Sorry sorry, just let me. 143 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: Ask that minister that can you name a single country? 144 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: Can you name a single country that has weakened existing 145 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: legislated domestic climate targets? 146 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 5: As I said, I'm not aware of that point. But 147 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 5: what I am aware of the world leading in that sense. 148 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: What are New Zealand's updated emissions targets for COP thirty 149 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 2: and how significant are they do you think? 150 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 4: Yeah? So, just to back up slightly, under the Paris Agreement, 151 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 4: each country that signed up to that has to submit 152 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 4: emission reduction plans periodically and so the latest round of 153 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 4: these has been happening this year. And so New Zealand 154 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 4: did submit an updated emissions reduction plan. Their previous one 155 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 4: was a fifty percent reduction in what our emissions were 156 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 4: in two thousand and five, and we'd achieved that fifty 157 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 4: percent reduction by twenty thirty, so that upgraded plan isn't 158 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 4: much of an upgrade. It's kind of from fifty percent 159 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 4: by twenty thirty to fifty one to fifty five percent 160 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 4: by twenty thirty five, so it's kind of it's met 161 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 4: those goals from Paris, but it's a it's a pretty 162 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 4: small increase really, and that compares with the UK, which 163 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 4: has committed to an more than an eighty percent reduction 164 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 4: from their nineteen ninety levels. Even rapidly industrializing countries like 165 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 4: Brazil have submitted more more ambitious targets than New Zealand have. 166 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 4: And I guess you might think, you know, fifty percent 167 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 4: is a pretty hefty reduction, right, and it would be 168 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 4: great if we could, you know, if we actually achieved that, 169 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: that's great, But in the bigger context of what's going 170 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 4: on in that one point five degree threshold, that we're 171 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 4: going to miss No one's taking enough action, enough major 172 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 4: action right now. Everyone needs to be more ambitious. So 173 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 4: to see such a small kind of ratcheting up from 174 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: the New Zealand government was pretty disappointing. I suppose Do. 175 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: You think it's disappointing or realistic? Could we actually bump 176 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: that up to eighty. 177 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,239 Speaker 3: Well or is that just posturing? 178 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 4: Yeah? I guess that's an important point, right Promises need 179 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 4: to be kind of followed up by action. We have 180 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 4: seen a kind of what's the the I guess we 181 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 4: might say backsliding. Maybe I don't think of the more 182 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: polite term than that right now. You know, in terms 183 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 4: of climate policy the last few years, there are a 184 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 4: number of emission reduction plans in place from the previous 185 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 4: government and they've been mostly kind of let go by 186 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 4: the current government without any replacement, you know, by alternative ideas. 187 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 4: If you know, you might not have liked the kind 188 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 4: of the clean car rebate, the UTAX, but if you're 189 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 4: going to get rid of that, then what are you 190 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 4: going to replace it with? And I don't think we've 191 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 4: seen kind of enough ambition from the current government to 192 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 4: kind of well, okay, if we're not going to do that, 193 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 4: then then what are we going to do? You know, 194 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 4: and then the idea, well, you know, drilling for you know, 195 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 4: allowing more drilling for oil in the context in this 196 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: current context again kind of it doesn't match the urgency 197 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 4: of the situation. 198 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 3: Because the situation is urgent. 199 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: You mentioned the UK there, UK Prime Minister Kirs Darma 200 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 2: has told world leaders that the consensus is gone on 201 00:12:58,640 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 2: fighting climate change. 202 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 3: Would you agree with him? 203 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I certainly think we're in a different position to 204 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 4: where we were, you know when the Paris Agreement site 205 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 4: was signed, you know, or maybe even four or five 206 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 4: years ago. Right, Governments change, and government priorities change, and 207 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 4: the extent to which they can bring along their populations 208 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 4: with them change. We're certainly not in the same position 209 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: that we were before. And you know, at the present moment, 210 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 4: those kind of that international community isn't as aligned as 211 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 4: it has been. 212 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: How difficult is it to have a big conference like this, 213 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: obviously the biggest climate change conference in the world. We're 214 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: talking about moving forward, we're talking about or getting onto 215 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: the same page and not having the US at the table. 216 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 4: Well, the you know, the second I think the second 217 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: biggest emitter globally at the moment. So it's obviously a 218 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 4: big hole, right if they're pulling out of the whole system. 219 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 4: I guess there's a timescale issue here in this. You know, 220 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: the political cycle in the US last for five years 221 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 4: in terms of a presidential term. But what we're looking 222 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: at here is something that's carrying on for decades, you know, 223 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: through to and beyond the end of the century. So 224 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 4: there will be kind of, you know, variations in how 225 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: much different countries can commit to this, but that you know, 226 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 4: there is a sense of kind of following the pack here, right. 227 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 4: If everyone's doing it, then you become the kind of 228 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 4: the odd ball, the standout if you're not doing it. 229 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: Even China's getting on board, aren't. 230 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: They, Yeah, exactly exactly. So, like China is the biggest 231 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 4: emitter of greenhouse gases in the world, but they're also 232 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 4: they have the most renewable electricity generation installed in the world. 233 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 4: They're installing more than anywhere else, and that the cost 234 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 4: of renewable energy is cheaper and cheaper all the time, 235 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 4: to the point where you know, in many situations it's 236 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 4: cheaper to generate electricity renewably than it is from fossil fuels. 237 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 4: So things keep turning and there are kind of bumped 238 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 4: along the way, you know, associated with political cycles, but 239 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 4: it's going one way in the end, and so I 240 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 4: guess it's up to the rest of the international community 241 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: to kind of stick with it. 242 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 6: But global warming not happening. You know, it used to 243 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 6: be global cooling. If you look back years ago, in 244 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 6: the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, they said global 245 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 6: cooling will kill the world. We have to do something. 246 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 6: Then they said global warming will kill the world. But 247 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 6: then it started getting cooler, so now they could just 248 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 6: call a climate change because that way they can't miss 249 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 6: climate change, because if it goes higher or lower, whatever 250 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 6: the hell happens, is climate change. It's the greatest con 251 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 6: job ever perpetrated in the world, in my opinion. 252 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: What would you like to see come out of COP. 253 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 4: Thirty Recognition of the urgency of the situation? Really, you know, 254 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: there are lots of kind of you know, big picture 255 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 4: and also technical things that are going to be discussed there, 256 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 4: from just kind of the general kind of feel of 257 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 4: the room around the urgency to some much more specific actions, 258 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 4: you know, around energy generation, finance, tropical rainforests and so on. 259 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 4: But just that sort of that combined will to do 260 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 4: something that came out of the Paris Agreement, just to 261 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,119 Speaker 4: kind of see that bolstered. 262 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: I guess do you reckon that when they signed the 263 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: Paris Agreement all those years ago that they actually thought 264 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: that it was going to be this bad. 265 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 4: Oh? 266 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know what I mean though, it's 267 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: just like imagine I can imagine all of them. 268 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: But you know, there's some some media about it. 269 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: People are saying all the earth is warming, and you know, 270 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: they go and sign this document and go haha, like 271 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: look at this document, and then we get up to 272 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: it right up to Cop thirty and everyone's. 273 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 4: Like, guys, yeah, I mean Paris was a huge, kind 274 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 4: of a huge achievement, right. It was a big step forward. 275 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 4: But at the same time, it was only words, right, 276 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 4: and they probably knew that when it came to actually 277 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 4: kind of dealing with the nitty gritty of it actually 278 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 4: doing stuff, that it was going to get more difficult. Yeah, 279 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 4: the way it always is. 280 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: I guess what concrete impacts of climate change are already 281 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: being observed in New Zealand. 282 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 4: Well, it's getting warmer. If you look at the temperature records, 283 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 4: you can see that. Maybe you can't feel it kind 284 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 4: of day to day, but we see it in other 285 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 4: aspects of the environment, you know, in terms of our 286 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 4: snowcover shrinking, our glaciers shrinking year on year. We see 287 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 4: it around extreme of e So you know, floods are 288 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 4: a particularly obvious one. The Auckland Anniversary weekend floods and 289 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 4: Cyclone Gabrielle. They were all worse because of climate change 290 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 4: because they occurred in a warmer atmosphere. 291 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: And. 292 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 4: You know, there's some scientific uncertainty around just how much 293 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 4: worse they were, but they were definitely worse. So you know, 294 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 4: that means they're kind of the flooding that came with it, 295 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 4: infrastructure damage, the loss of life, you know, impacts on 296 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 4: kind of you know, food production as well. There are 297 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 4: you know, quite substantial impacts you know, associated with those 298 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 4: events that were worse because of climate change. And we 299 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 4: see droughts as well becoming more intense internationally as well. 300 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 4: Just you know, the past kind of week or so, 301 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 4: Hurrican Melissa in the Caribbean, there was sixteen percent more 302 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 4: rainfall in that because of climate change. Winds were seven 303 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 4: percent stronger because you know, it was happening in a 304 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 4: warmer atmosphere, So yeah, we don't have to look too 305 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: far to see those sort of concrete impacts. 306 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: And what climate solutions or innovations would you like to 307 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: see the most in New Zealand. What can we really 308 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: harness and make our own and really lead the world in. 309 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 4: We're going kind of slightly into my kind of personal 310 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 4: opinion now rather than my kind of professional expertise for 311 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 4: current scientist. But look, we've got most of the technology 312 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 4: available to deal with this, right. Electric cars are pretty 313 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 4: good and they're getting better. Rooftop solar is cheap, right, 314 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 4: it's just an upfront cost, just as there's an upfront 315 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 4: cost to buying a new car. We need help to 316 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 4: kind of make those initial steps and a lot of 317 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 4: that has to come from kind of from a government level. 318 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 4: But the technology, a lot of the technology is there 319 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 4: to make a huge impact on our emissions. There's amazing 320 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 4: new kind of innovations going on in agriculture as well, 321 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 4: in terms of kind of the methane that gets emitted 322 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 4: from dairying, for instance. We just need more of a 323 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 4: push and to kind of to make it easier to change, 324 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 4: but also the kind of the messaging around it. There 325 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 4: are huge opportunities around kind of reducing greenhouse gases. It 326 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 4: doesn't have to be seen as a cost and negative 327 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: thing when it can actually lead to a kind of, 328 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 4: you know, huge additional beneficial changes as well as just 329 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 4: limiting climate change. 330 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: It's not enough anymore just to be cleaning out your 331 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: yoga caps. 332 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, just recycling by itself isn't going to cut it. 333 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: No, thanks for joining us, Daniel. 334 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 4: No problem, Nice to talk to you. 335 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 336 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 337 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: at endzed hair dot nz. The Front Page is produced 338 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 339 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 340 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 341 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.