WEBVTT - A serial founder's guide to being totally wrong 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.200 Think of the best known e commerce and software startups 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.320 that New Zealand has produced. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:09.480 The zero Trade me then timely just to name four 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:09.879 of them. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:12.800 Well, there's one tech entrepreneur and investor who has been 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.400 heavily involved in all four of the ones you mentioned 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:16.560 and many more. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.320 Rowan Simpson is one of the most successful serial tech 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.480 entrepreneurs in the country, and he's distilled what he's learned 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.320 into a new book, How to Be Wrong, A Crash 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.040 Course in startup success. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.600 The biggest successes in tech companies did not invent the 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.680 technologies that they are famous for. By Apple, the biggest 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.159 technology company, did not need any of the things that 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.880 they are most famous for. But they did work out 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.400 what all of those things were for, and man, they 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.040 worked out how to make us want them and to 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.920 pay top dollar for And so the really valuable part 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.519 has not been the first to have the idea. The 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.560 really valuable part has been the one who works out 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.400 how to sell that to somebody in a way that 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:57.320 they will pay for. 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.400 Coming up on the Business of Tech by two Degrees Business, 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.720 Rowan Simpson on learning lessons, the hard Way, measuring Everything 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:07.919 and near death moments and startups. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.200 I'm Ben Moore and I'm Peter Griffin and some very 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.760 articulate commentary about the state of innovation in New Zealand 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.440 coming up. Rowan's interview has lots of great nuggets of advice. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.320 Try things, make mistakes, but learn from them and he's 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.840 definitely done that, going on to enjoy major success in 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:27.160 New Zealand startup sector. 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.480 So here's Rowan Simpson talking to Peter about failing pivoting 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:37.520 and the importance of having a beginner's mind. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.520 Rowan Simpson, Welcome to the business of Tech. Great to 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.520 see you again and thanks for coming on. 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:46.080 Thanks for having menu. It's great opportunity. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.160 It's incredible, you know when you think of the legacy 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.440 that you have had in New Zealand in the startup community. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:57.040 We talk about trade me obviously zero ven timely so 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.520 nice sex and one capacity, whether on staff, as part 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.640 of an executive team or as an investor as well. 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.760 Probably not a lot of key wes know your face, 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.680 like a Sam Morgan or a Rod Drury. You're just 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.680 interested to start really what your approach has been. Did 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.480 you ever want to be that sort of founder that 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.720 had all the intention or were you more happy being 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.320 a support person part of a team. 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.560 I mean, I play my role, and I mean it's important, 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.600 I guess that there is a person to front these companies. 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:29.080 One of the things I write about in the book 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.240 is this what I call the myth of the lone genius. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.840 We tend to attach one name to any successful company, 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.040 and Sam and Rode a great examples, so that vorn 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.399 at vend would be another. But there's always a team, 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.040 there's always a big group of people that sit behind 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.320 any successful business like that, and I guess I'm just 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.919 one of those. So yeah, it's maybe useful for people 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.560 who might fill those roles themselves to get that perspective. 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.480 You start the book very clearly talking about some of 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.080 the near death experiences off those four companies. They all 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.400 had great exits or in Zero's case, listed in multi 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.040 billion dollar business that now, but each one of those 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.880 companies had massive challenges. You talk about trade Me in 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.360 two thousand and one, you said the business model was 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.639 not working at left us hanging by a thread. I 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:23.200 planned to provide free online classified supported by advertising, had 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.120 failed to generate revenue, and it was that successfully that 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.160 you added that saved the business. But for a time 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.040 there it was looking like, I mean, you guys went overseas, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:33.240 you've basically left it behind. 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.680 Yeah, Sam, his sister Jess, who was the second employee 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:37.440 before me, and myself, we were all in London at 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.680 the same time in two thousand and one Year's Eve 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.240 two thousand and one, So yeah, I mean we literally 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.840 had billboards back in those days which said only Turkey's 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.280 pay for classifieds. That was the tagline for trade me. 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.000 So we were quite wrong about the business model. And yeah, 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:52.839 I mean this is a repeated pattern, So I would 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.240 think about that across all four Like the stories we 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:01.120 tell about startups tend not to be actually honest or 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.240 accurate or detailed stories, and there's a good reason for that, 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.560 Like the honest story is messy, convoluted, doesn't fit so 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.880 nicely into soundbites. But the airbrushed versions of these stories, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.440 in my opinion, kind of skip all the interesting bit 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.280 and often most of the important lessons as well. So yeah, 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.040 I think it's I think it is useful to tell 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.560 those stories. I was really determined in the book to 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.120 start with those four near death moments. It's easy to 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:30.800 retrospectively look back on those four companies and say, you 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:32.920 know they were great successes, but that's not how they 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.560 felt when we were actually in those moments. Like when 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:37.920 I left to go to the UK, if I'm honest, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:39.680 I didn't think there'd be a trade me to come 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.480 back to well. And you know, that's the experience of 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.559 working in those companies day to day, and for people 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.000 working on their own startups today, like understanding that experience 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.919 is way more interesting than just reading the headline success stories. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.520 Yeah, you take Timely another great company that had a 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.000 fantastic exit as well, But and Covid obviously that that 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.320 particular product for hairdresser is you know, small businesses for 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.640 managing timing and scheduling and all that sort of stuff 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.240 went out the window when people went into to lockdown. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.120 That company almost went to the wall. 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.960 Yeah, I mean, you know, all of our customers were 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.000 health and beauty businesses. They take their bookings week by week, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.200 and we saw those numbers go very quickly to zero 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.840 as the world shut down. Where customers all around the world, 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:25.800 so it was sort of different in different places depending 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.880 on how those lockdowns worked. But that required a really 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.800 quick kind of you know pivot for the business. If 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:33.480 you're like we had to respond very quickly to that 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.919 or we would have been dead. And yet it was 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.560 a relatively short period of time after that twenty twenty 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.280 one when we exited the business for you know, one 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.320 hundred million plus, and so you know again that experience 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.920 sort of being in that moment where the company felt 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.839 very tenuous, and you know, we had to make some 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.359 very quick, difficult decisions about how we were going to 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.640 adjust the cost model or the business around that too. 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.520 Only you know, a year or so later, you know 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:04.640 that excitement of selling the company. If you only hear 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.640 about the exit, you kind of miss a lot of 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.120 the interesting bits of that story and that journey. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.120 You call the book How to Be Wrong, you know. So, 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.039 and it's very clear that all of these lessons and 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.400 mistakes that you've made along the way and as part 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.800 of these companies, have built a confidence in you. You know, 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:23.920 you talk about vend in the book, another great company 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.440 but was burning cash twenty fifteen, close to shutting it 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.040 all down. You came back, camped out in a hotel 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.159 room in Auckland and went to work with the team 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.600 there to try and save it, which was painful cutting jobs, Yeah. 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:39.960 Especially painful because a lot of those folks who were 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.160 let go in twenty fifteen were the ones who had 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.520 been you know, on the steep curve up and had 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.039 done the hard yards, so that was especially painful. And yeah, 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.080 I had a lot of very direct conversations with our 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.400 investors too, because you know, at that point, because of 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.520 the mistakes we've made Wet, we weren't going to be 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.640 able to raise external capital. So if we were going 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.960 to keep the company alive, we need to get support 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.760 from our existing investors. So those are crunchy discussions, you know, 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:06.640 And yeah, I think it is. I think again it's 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.719 interesting to share those stories so that people can sort 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.200 of appreciate what that's actually like. 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.920 Yeah, because there are you know, probably a lot of 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.520 startup founders and even just small business owners at the 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.800 moment who are in one of those near death experiences. 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.840 We've already seen some of our startups that had a 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.040 lot of exposure sort of fail in the last couple 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:31.360 of years, sunfed Ubco, great electric bike company, even solar Machines, 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.320 you know, Gred Crofts, fantastic innovative companies run in to 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.880 trouble with its business model. So a lot of people 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.960 in these businesses are thinking, if I make a mistake here, 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.640 the business is over, what do you do? I guess 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.320 it's hard to give advice. Every situation is different. But 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.680 what have you learned the confidence that you've built up 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:56.560 to tackle these problems over successive crises in startups? What's 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:57.120 your advice? 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.520 Yeah? So, I mean, as you say, call the book 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.000 how to be So maybe let me just run through 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.160 the three ways to be wrong, because there's actually only three, 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.040 which surprises some people. The first way is to not 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.120 even ask the question, So don't even measure your results, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.240 don't even ask if it's working or not. And I 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.440 think that's the first piece of advice. I would go, like, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:20.040 be inside the business at least be very inquisitive about 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.280 whether it's working and how you will know. You can 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.560 do a lot of work to really understand how much 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.080 of the story you're telling externally actually is true internally, 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.360 So it's the first way. Second way is just to 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:34.640 make an error. Like we're all human, we have our 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.720 own biases, especially when you're a young company, Like the 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.520 feedback you get from your first few customers can sometimes 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.800 be quite misleading as you expand to a broader range 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.480 of customers. So those sorts of things. You just have 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:51.760 to be consciously and continuously aware that you might be wrong. 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:53.960 And I think it's always better to kind of have 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.840 that mindset, assume you're wrong and look for the ways 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:58.719 you're wrong so that you can correct them quickly, rather 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.000 than kind of assume your right, which is I think 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.400 the sort of behavior more of an encouraging founders. And 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.480 then the last way is just to lie, which you 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.319 know kind of sounds facetious but actually is surprisingly common. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:12.800 And I told a few of those stories in this 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.080 book too, like you, where people know that something's not working, 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.480 but it kind of doesn't serve them to be honest 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.760 about that, especially externally, and so they just sort of 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.079 plow on. And I think, you know, so all three 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.200 of those things, whether it's you know, omitting to actually measure, 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.640 or making a mistake or just being dishonest, like, there 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.560 are easy things you can do to avoid all three 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:37.280 of those mistakes. And if you really consciously avoid those 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.160 three things, you give yourself a chance to be right. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.120 There's no guarantee. These are startups we're talking about, but 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.880 I think those behaviors are you know, the things that 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.080 I would pin my advice on. 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.160 You talk about the value of curiosity and continuous learning. 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.640 That's a continuous theme actually through the book. You're on 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.520 a journey, but you're learning from every interaction you have 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.680 with the founded team. When you investigate a company with 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.520 a view to investing, you talk down I think it 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.960 was you know, Steve Jobs quote about having this beginner's 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:10.120 mind as technology evolves, and I think that's really pertinent 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.240 at the moment where we have, you know, the biggest 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.160 technology that's attracting investment and hype at the moment is 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.640 generative AI. Trying to as a company reinvent yourself to 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.640 incorporate this technology, because we're being told if you don't, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.000 you won't be competitive anymore. What's been your approach in 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.360 a fast moving technology landscape. Sure, you're an expert in 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.760 software as a service those types of business models, but 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.560 everything from accounting software to and voiceing so nice sex 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.400 very different type of business. How have you kept fresh, 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.120 kept curious, and kept learning. 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.160 I mean, that's definitely a moment right now, isn't it. 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.280 And I guess old enough to have seen a few 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.800 of these waves with the you know, trade me road, 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.000 the breaking wave of the internet really as that became 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.040 broadly adopted, and then in between then and now we've 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.839 had the mobile wave, you know, with the iPhone and 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.720 two thousand and seven and Normwalds and so you know, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.400 it often surprises people, for example when I tell them 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.600 that zero iPod before the iPhone was released, which is 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.720 kind of crazy to think, but so, you know, I 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:10.760 think all you need to do, really and I think 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.000 this is the behavior that we need to kind of 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.480 really try and encourage the kids especially is to understand 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.160 how things work, like be curious about how things work, 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.720 like try and deconstruct that because everything, everything was made 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.000 by somebody. So generative AI is a great example, like 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:31.439 you show, you know, the average person what that technology 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.880 can do and it feels magical, like they type in, 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.160 you know, a simple command and the machine responds in 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.280 a very human kind of way and it feels magical. 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.960 But you can deconstruct that, you can understand how that works. 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.640 I'm about four and a half hours into a five 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.360 and a half hour podcast you recommended better on this, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.199 which is like you know, dense with information about that. 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.000 You know how they underlying technologies have evolved and been 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.840 built up and all those things. So yeah, if you 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.200 are curious to understand and those are things you can 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.559 inquire about and learn and discover for yourselves. And then 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.679 the next step is to realize that you can you 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.079 can build those things. You don't just have to consume 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.280 those things. And so you know, for me, that was 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.000 the real switch that flipped when I was at university 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.560 and the Internet wave was breaking. So when I was 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.200 in second year was when the first web browser was released, Mosaic, 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.000 and you know it would it would have been easy 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.520 to see that as a consumption media and a lot 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.960 of people consume the Internet, but you can also build them. 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.920 And so yeah, having that mindset of being a writer 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:38.880 as well as a reader, I think is part of 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.760 that curiosity. 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.000 One of the things you've written in many LinkedIn posts 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.520 and probably got a bit of flat for as well, 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.200 because we do love in this country in the startup community, 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.600 our meetups and startup founders, talking to startup founders, and 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.520 one of your bits of advice which has stuck with 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.360 me is don't spend time talking to other startup founders. 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.640 Go out there and talk to your customers. If you're 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.360 doing software for a cement company, go and talk to 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.880 cement makers and go to their conferences. And that's about 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.920 that learning and that curiosity about what is actually going 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.679 to improve your product and not make you feel better 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.400 as a founder because you're hanging out with a bunch 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:15.679 of people drinking beer. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.600 Yeah. I mean to be clear, I don't say don't 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.440 hang out with startup founders. That's fine, Yeah, And I 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.760 think it's probably important too, like to have peers who 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.400 can relate to the things that you're working on experiencing. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.840 But my advices, don't spend all your time in that 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.760 community because your customers aren't there. And this was a 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:38.679 real lesson from Timing. Actually, like when we first started Timely, 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.679 we thought ourselves we thought of ourselves as a technology 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:46.080 company that was providing technology software effectively to the health 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.160 and beauty sector. And eventually, over time we realized that 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.920 we were wrong about that and we wear ourselves a 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.479 health and beauty business and our product was technology services. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:57.960 And as soon as we made that switch mentally, it 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.800 totally changed the way that we thought about selling and 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.360 marketing the product. Like, as you say, we started hanging 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.599 out at health and beauty conferences, not at startup conferences. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.960 It was very hard to get Ryan and scoff to 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.960 come to startup events. It wasn't their scene, and you know, 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.240 it's part of part of the success I think of 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:20.000 that business was really getting to know the customers deeply 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.120 and well. And yeah, like going back to those hard 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.800 moments you were talking about earlier, I think that that 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.240 allowed us to respond better because we had that connection. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.480 We even had we even had people on the board 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.440 who were health and beauty people, not technology people, not investors, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.240 and so they were able to you know, they were 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.920 able to see the right way to respond in those moments. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:43.280 Yeah, you've obviously learned a lot about investing as well 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.520 as a beautiful anecdote you're telling you Sam Morgan very 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:51.320 hard nosed, an investor, very experienced. Now so nice sex. 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:52.840 You know, you were saying, oh, that was a good return. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.040 He was going, Nah, I think we could have done 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.400 much better out of that. What have you learned and 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.080 how how have you did your approach to investing based 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.680 on the success but also maybe some of the things 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.120 that didn't work out the way you wanted to. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.840 Yeah, I was really fortunate in that Zero was a 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.080 nice hybrid for me. Like I was an employee at 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.000 Zero but also an investor pre IPO. So in many ways, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:19.760 my first kind of investment post trade me was a 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.600 very easy one, and the next couple that followed after 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.280 that definitely punched me in the face. And I tell 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.920 those stories, but I think the key lesson I took 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:32.080 away from that was for me, at least, what made 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.680 me happy was being closer to the founders, being part 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.640 of the business, and really understanding what was working in 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:41.920 those businesses, what wasn't working in you know, that sort 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.800 of quick iteration in the very early stages especially was invigorating. 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.160 But also where I could add the most, like just 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.600 being an investor sitting on the sidelines and kind of 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.000 cheering them on, didn't wasn't you know, wasn't giving me 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.680 any happy points. And Sin of Sex is a great example, 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:00.960 like I doubled my money on that, but I learned 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.720 almost nothing from it. And so yeah, the ones that 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.520 came after that were really heavily informed by that experience, 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.480 and thankfully a lot of those have gone very well. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.240 Yeah, and we're seeing more cases of sort of hands 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.920 on investors who have all this experience, people who've gone 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.600 through two or three startups now who are willing to 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:19.600 this is. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.040 How ecosystems grow. And I've been saying this for a while. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.120 We talk about building an ecosystem, but actually ecosystems grow, 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.920 and it's awesome now. Like I would say, if you 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.119 define the ecosystem as just the collective noun of startups, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.240 we're in as strong a position now probably as we've 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.480 ever been. And there's a really easily understood reason for that, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.080 and that is a lot of people who have spun 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.440 out of drave Mee and zero and Vened and Timing 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.880 and lots of other companies that have had successes and 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.400 are doing their next thing, either either directly you starting 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.560 the new company themselves, or they're investing or advising. Ryan 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.920 at Timley is doing exactly what I did ten years 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.080 ago and has handpicked two or three companies to work 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.640 closely with and is trying to make them as good 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:04.040 as poss like that's exactly what grows an ecosystem. 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.959 We're going to close really discussing the state of the 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.720 ecosystem and the state of sort of tech in New 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.200 Zealand as well, but keind of drill into building teams 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:15.960 in company culture. You write in the book, first, we 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.520 need to accept that being excellent at just one thing 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.720 is often insufficient. Then we need to think harder about 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.600 the skills we have that can be combined. This is 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:28.240 true for individuals, but especially true for the team. So 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.800 I mean, these days, I think you play an incredibly 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.560 valuable role in looking at a team. You've learned from 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.040 the early days of trade me through to zero, what 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.040 actually makes for a good team, especially in those early 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.639 days when you may only have five or six people. 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.240 What have you learned about that? And have we got 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.080 better at doing this? Building startup teams in New Zealand. 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.560 I think the metaphor I like to use as a 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.359 rugby team because New Zealanders kind of understand this. Like 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.400 when you think about selecting a rugby team, you've got 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.720 a lot of different positions to fill. You know, you 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.520 need to props, you need some locks, you need a 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.000 half back, you need to fall back. And same time 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.560 with startup teams, like going back to the myth of 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.320 the lone genius, it's kind of alluring to think if 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.400 you just have you know, a team of those crazy, 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.320 you know, inspirational leaders, then then magic could happen. But 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.840 actually you need you need some props, and you need 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.280 a half back to complement the fleshy winger, you know, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.520 And so yeah, that's I think the mindset that people 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.760 should have is, like, is what are all the skills 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.399 we need? And those those extend well beyond just product 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.720 as well, like thinking about the business model, thinking about 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.919 sales and distribution, like those are not strengths in New Zealand, 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.560 but they are skills that are vital to any successful company. 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.560 So yeah, like, I mean, you know, one of the 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.119 one of the mantras that we had at trade Me 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.520 actually was a's higher a's, b's higher cs. And so 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.879 the whole mindset was trying to hire people who were 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.959 better than us, and thankfully I managed to do that 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:57.920 in a couple of instances so that by the time 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.399 I left Trade Me, they more or less didn't miss me. 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.359 But it's easy to do the opposite. It's easy to 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.920 kind of to not think carefully about the people that 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.159 you're bringing into the team, especially in those early days, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.639 who really set the culture and set the trajectory for 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.040 the business. So hiring intentionally is a huge part of. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.080 That, I guess as a founder and as a CEO, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.679 knowing when to step aside or as the CEO and 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.040 you've had that with Vorn and people like that throughout 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.720 the history of some of these companies have gone I'm 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.359 a software guy, I'm a CTO type person. So I 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.880 guess that's really pivotal and this is where investors can help. Look, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.240 you're still integral to the business, but not necessarily in 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:35.320 an operational role. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.439 Yeah, I mean, i'd include myself in that as much 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.639 as anything. I'm also a generalist. I think that I 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.760 am best suited to those early stages of the business, 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.640 but everyone will have their own life cycle in these companies. 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.879 Some people can see it all the way through. Others 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.879