1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: So as predicted, Nikola Willis has pushed out surplus again, 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: which makes it the third year of delay in only 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: two years of this government being in office. The country's 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: now forecast to first be in the black and twenty 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: twenty nine, twenty thirty. So let's talk to the finance minister. 6 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: High Nicola, Good morning, Heather. Just clear this up for me. 7 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Are we borrowing right now as a country just to 8 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: pay our interest bill on the debt? 9 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 2: We are paying in part to pay the interest bill 10 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: on the debt, which is pretty big. It's more than 11 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: nine billion dollars a year, thank you Labor. But as 12 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: we look over the next few years, around eighty percent 13 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 2: of our borrowing is for capital investments, so that's an 14 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 2: infrastructure unlike hospitals, schools and roads, so assets that we 15 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: will have for the future. Regardless, we need to get 16 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: that borrowing down, which means we need to get the 17 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: books back in balance, and that's what the government has 18 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: a plan to do. 19 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Okay, So why not run a zero budget like Bill. 20 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: English did, because we do have pressing needs, for example, 21 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: to invest more in the health system to allow for 22 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: a growing and aging population and the demands that people 23 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: have to double the capability of our defense force, as 24 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: we have committed to our security partners to ensure that schools, 25 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: teachers and the like have a little bit more funding 26 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: to keep the lights on and keep doing their work. 27 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 2: So those frontline services require more funding just to stand still. 28 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: And we have committed as a government that we will 29 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: be delivering effective frontline services and making the funding commitments 30 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: needed to support that. 31 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: I mean, he had the same pressing needs, didn't he, 32 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: And he still managed to cut enough to run a 33 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: zero budget a couple of times. 34 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: That's right, and we are doing a similar thing to 35 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: him in that in order to fund all of the 36 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: commitments that we have made, we will need to keep 37 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: finding ongoing savings and reprioritization. That's been our habit over 38 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,279 Speaker 2: our first two budgets, in which collectively we've delivered forty 39 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: three billion dollars worth of savings. Now, of course, those 40 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: savings have allowed us to deliver tax relief to working people, 41 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: but also to increase funding to a number of services, 42 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: doing things like increasing the number of frontline police offices. 43 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: Do you think that you've cut everything that you can, 44 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: Is all the fat gone? 45 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: No? I think we have to be pressing for. 46 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: On what ongoing fat can you see? 47 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 2: Well, I still think that there's room for more efficiency 48 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: in the public service. I have, together with ministers, identified 49 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: other areas where we think, look, are we getting in 50 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: our value for money to the taxpayer? There? Like what not? 51 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: Convinced well, I will be taking a number of options 52 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: to cabinet. I don't want to get ahead of my 53 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 2: cabinet colleagues until we've made those choices. But the way 54 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: I run a budget is I send letters out to 55 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: my colleagues saying, here's some ideas for where I think 56 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: you could make some savings. Come back to me with 57 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 2: what that would look like. And by the way, in 58 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: a few cases, here's an idea for where you might 59 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: need some more before. 60 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean, for a start, why have you not cut nearly, 61 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: not even a fraction really of what Jacinda and Grant 62 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: piled in in terms of public servants. 63 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: Well, we have cut both the absolute number of public 64 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: side how many more than by more than two thousand 65 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: from its peak. Let me out all that down. 66 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: How many go exactly how many? It's important to say 67 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: how many they added? They added more than fourteen thousand, 68 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 1: and you've only cut. 69 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: Two that's right. Our focus has been making sure that 70 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: we reduce the number of people and back office roles. 71 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: So the numbers there have come down quite a lot 72 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: more dramatically, whether that's admin staff, managers, policy analysts. But 73 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: we have increased, for example, the number of corrections officers, 74 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: that is, the number of people in our prisons because 75 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: we're locking up criminals for longer when they violently offend 76 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: against people. So while some of those roles have increased 77 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: on the front line, the back office has been shrunk 78 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: pretty sick. To be fair, there's more work we can 79 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: do there, to be fair. 80 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: That when we look at these numbers that you talk 81 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: about the front the front line does not increase by 82 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: anything like fourteen or twelve thousand. 83 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: Well, it didn't owe the time that labor were an offer. 84 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: What I'm saying to you is you're fudging it slightly 85 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: by suggesting that you have cut really, really deep and 86 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: then increased the front line by a lot, you haven't. 87 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: Actually, Well, we have cut the number of back office 88 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: roles while also reducing the bill for external consultants and 89 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 2: contractors by around nine hundred million over the past couple 90 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: of years. For the again for context, the last national government. 91 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: All they did was cap the number of public servants. 92 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: They certainly didn't reduce it in quite terms. What about 93 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: what we've achieved so far? 94 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: What about the free year of university to students, which 95 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: which has been criticized. It's a flop, It doesn't encourage enrollment. 96 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: Why don't you cut that? 97 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: Well, we've done what we said we would in our 98 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 2: coalition agreement with New Zealand first, which was we took 99 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: the very ineffective first year at fees free and we 100 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: made it final years fees free. So you only get 101 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: those free fees if you actually. 102 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: Have you asked to Winston? Have you asked Winston if 103 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: he would be okay with you cutting it all together. 104 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 2: I'm happy to put that question to him. 105 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: Oh have you not put that question to him? Nikola? 106 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: I've been asking you about this for two. 107 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: Years because the way the coalition agreement works is the 108 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: commitments as they are in writing, is the commitments as 109 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: we deliver them, and so the commitment there in the 110 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: coalition agreement. 111 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: Now he wanted it move from the first to the 112 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: third year because having it in the first year is stupid. 113 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: But he might be open to cutting it all together. 114 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: And if you did that, you would say about a 115 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: billion dollars and four years. 116 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: It's a question that I'm happy to put to him. 117 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: Okay, why don't you end the national ticketing system? 118 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: Right? 119 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: Because Wellington's doing it itself now, it's spending five point 120 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: five mil on it, but you're in line to spend 121 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: one point four bill. Why not cut it? 122 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: Well? I agree that that is an absolutely tormented project. 123 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: It's another one of the hospital passes that we've inherited. 124 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: That is something that Chris Bishop, as Transport Minister, is 125 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: looking very carefully at because, like you, he can think 126 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: of a few better uses for more than a billion dollars, 127 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: and so he is examining keyfully whether that's a spend 128 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: that we should be doing. 129 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: Okay, have you thought about stopping the welfare that you're 130 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: giving to parents who are earning combined more than two 131 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars a year. 132 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: Well, primarily that comes through working for families for which 133 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: support increases when people. 134 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: Have this is your family boost, right? 135 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: Well, no, family boost is, yes, a payment that is 136 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: available to some people earning that amount in some circumstances, 137 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: if they have particularly high early childhood education. 138 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: Why not cut it. If you're on two hundred thousand, 139 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: you've got enough. 140 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 2: Money because we're actually investing around about exactly what we 141 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: campaigned on investing. In that policy. We made a commitment 142 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: to working parents who have very high early childhood education 143 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: costs that we would refund a portion of those and 144 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: we're keeping that commitment. 145 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, have you thought about maybe income testing the 146 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: winter energy payment because there are people who are getting 147 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: getting using it to warm the pool. 148 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: Well, the Prime Minister sent out a commitment card prior 149 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: to the election and one of the commitments he made 150 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: was not to reduce the winter winter Energy payment for superinuitance. 151 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: You'll see a theme here, which is where we've made 152 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: commitments to the New Zealand people, we think it's important 153 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: we keep them. And that's relevant not just for this 154 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: three years, it's actually relevant for the next. 155 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: Sections changed change and the superlus has been pushed out 156 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: by three years and maybe you need to start breaking 157 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: some promises and not wasting so much cash. 158 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: And we are forecasting a return to surplus and the 159 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: biggest risk to that is the election of a labor 160 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: government who have shown no inclination to do any ongoing 161 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: efficiency or savings. And so what I need to do 162 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: is ensure that our government is keeping its commitments to 163 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: people that it made and its campaign pledges, while also 164 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: doing an absolutely consistent drive for more savings. And there 165 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: will be more opportunities at the next election for people 166 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: to set out their store. And I tell you this, 167 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: the stare of the National Party is going to be 168 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: far more fiscally disciplined than Labor have ever dreamed of 169 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: even pretending to be. 170 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: All Right, Nichola, thank you very much for your time, 171 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: Have a lovely day. Nichola will as Finance Minister. For 172 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: more from the mic Hosking Breakfast, listen live to News 173 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: Talks at b from six am weekdays, or follow the 174 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio.