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Speaker 1: Now a massive trial in the US spells a bit

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Speaker 1: of trouble for the social media giants. Meta and Google

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Speaker 1: have been found liable for making addictive products at harm

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Speaker 1: young people by an l A jury. They've been ordered

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Speaker 1: to pay six million dollars to a woman who says

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Speaker 1: she became addicted to YouTube and Instagram as a child.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Samantha Marsh is a senior public health researcher at

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Speaker 1: University of Auckland and with US High Samantha, Hi, do

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Speaker 1: you think this is a big tobacco moment like many

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Speaker 1: commentators are saying it is?

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Speaker 2: Well, ah, yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: You know, they had an addictive product that was causing

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Speaker 3: harm for many years that you know they dodged, you know,

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Speaker 3: going to trial for it, and you know they had

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Speaker 3: their day in the nineties. And this is what I

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Speaker 3: think we're seen today. This is a very historic moment

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Speaker 3: for public health.

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Speaker 1: Is it an inflection point because it is just yet

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Speaker 1: another thing that we are starting to see, which I

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Speaker 1: guess absolutely reinforces in our minds. Yes, these are the

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Speaker 1: bad guys, they are bad actors. Or is it is

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Speaker 1: it that this is this case provides a chink in

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Speaker 1: their legal armor that and it will be used against

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Speaker 1: them in future court cases.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this is what is so

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Speaker 3: important about this is that, you know, this is the

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Speaker 3: first time that we're that you know, they've they've actually

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Speaker 3: been taken to court, they've.

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Speaker 2: Been found liable for their product.

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Speaker 3: Up until now, it's all just three and about you know,

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Speaker 3: what people post on their platforms and they can't be

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Speaker 3: held responsible for that. But this kind of changes everything

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Speaker 3: because we you know, what has come out of this

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Speaker 3: is that these companies knew that they were, you know,

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Speaker 3: designing a product to be addicted.

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Speaker 2: They were doing that on purpose.

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Speaker 3: They knew it was addictive, and they went ahead and

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Speaker 3: did it anyway, and then they promoted it to children.

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Speaker 1: But so what I mean, so here's the Devil's advocates.

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Speaker 1: So what ten million New Zealand dollars pay out to

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Speaker 1: this woman is nothing. These guys are squillionaires. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: even touch the sides.

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Speaker 2: So this was actually the second of the week.

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Speaker 3: So the day before in New Mexico, Meta was ordered

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Speaker 3: to pay three hundred and seventy five million dollars and

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Speaker 3: a separate lawsuit, which is it. You know, it's quite

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Speaker 3: a sizable amount of money that was because they misled

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Speaker 3: consumers about the safety of their platform, you know, knowing

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Speaker 3: the harming kids mental health and concealing child exploitation on

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Speaker 3: their platforms.

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Speaker 2: But I think, you know, this is just the first case.

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Speaker 3: Of many cases. You know, it was a it's a

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Speaker 3: Bellweather case. So there's thousands of cases waiting in the

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Speaker 3: wings now to you know. And and what I think

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Speaker 3: we really hope is this is going to make the

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Speaker 3: companies actually change their product, you know, make meaningful changes

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Speaker 3: to their platform.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so if we use the big Tobacco analogy,

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Speaker 1: then it's like asking it's like asking to big tobacco

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Speaker 1: to make the cities less addictive. They don't do that.

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Speaker 1: So is me to actually going to do that or

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Speaker 1: they will simply adapt and hide it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think this is exactly the problem.

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Speaker 3: And that's why when you know, people are saying where

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Speaker 3: we should continue to let young children or you know,

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Speaker 3: thirteen year olds or whatever access these platforms, We're just

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Speaker 3: going to make them safer.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, well, are they going to make you? Know?

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Speaker 3: You can as I've always say, you can go and

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Speaker 3: get cigarettes. They're addictive and they.

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Speaker 2: Can kill you.

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Speaker 3: You can still buy them because it's you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a very profitable product. And so I don't think that

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Speaker 3: they will make meaningful changes to their platforms because it's

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Speaker 3: not just about the algorithm. It's not just about content

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Speaker 3: or predators, you know, it's the whole way the product

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Speaker 3: is designed, that is social media. So if you change

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Speaker 3: it to make it, you know, not harmful to young people,

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Speaker 3: it's not a profitable product anymore, which is why, you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the things is we need age restrictions now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, mesas share price went up today on the

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Speaker 1: back of it. So did Alphabets, which is the parent

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Speaker 1: company of Google. How do we explain that.

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Speaker 3: I can't explain that. I'm not that's not my area.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I can't, you know, I don't. I can't

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Speaker 3: explain why.

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Speaker 1: Because with the logical thing, I mean, no, fair enough,

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Speaker 1: it's not your are. But the logical thing is the

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Speaker 1: sholders looked at that, they thought, oh, that's not that bad,

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Speaker 1: that court ruling. Maybe they're just judging it on the

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Speaker 1: damages the payout, and they've just gone no problem, and

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Speaker 1: they've actually put more.

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Speaker 3: Down the business, perhaps because it wasn't you know, for

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Speaker 3: that single case.

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Speaker 2: But you know, they won the day before.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know how quick the market

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Speaker 3: would respond to this, but I see it as a

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Speaker 3: huge as a huge thing. And you know, we had

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Speaker 3: TikTok and snap who owns Snapchat. They they didn't even

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Speaker 3: go to trial because they you know, we assume that

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Speaker 3: they thought that they they didn't want this stuff to

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Speaker 3: come out that has come out in these trials. And

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Speaker 3: you know, some of the stuff that has come out

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Speaker 3: has been so damning, even to people like me who

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Speaker 3: have been very vocal, you know, a very vocal critic

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Speaker 3: of these companies. I've been shocked by what they've said

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Speaker 3: that they've been doing.

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Speaker 1: Now, samith that if we accept that this is the

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Speaker 1: big tobacco moment, how does it go from here? What

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Speaker 1: is the thing that makes it that takes us to

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Speaker 1: the big takes big tech to where big tobacco is today.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and as I said, I'd like to

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Speaker 3: see them make meaningful changes to their products, but I

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Speaker 3: think the most important thing would be a fundamental shift

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Speaker 3: really in how society is approaching new technologies that are

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Speaker 3: you know, consumer technologies, you know, thinking about AI now

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Speaker 3: that's coming out particularly those technologies that we're giving kids

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Speaker 3: because they you know, the burden of proof has got

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Speaker 3: to shift, and that's what I would hope would come

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Speaker 3: out of this, because these companies should be required to

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Speaker 3: demonstrate safety for their products before their products reach young children,

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Speaker 3: not years later in a courtroom like you know has

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Speaker 3: just played out.

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Speaker 1: Hey, thank you, Samantha, appreciate your timing, your expertise at

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Speaker 1: doctor Samantha Marsh, Senior public health researcher at the University

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Speaker 1: of Auckland. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen

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