1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: Now most key we think that if the Cook Island's 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, Mark Brown carries on with his foreign policy antics, 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: new Zealand should withdraw automatic access to New Zealand, including passports, 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: healthcare and superannuation from the Cox Curia and the Taxpayers 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Union has given us some polling showing forty six percent 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: of people agree with that, only thirty percent disagree. Now, 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Associate Professor Anna Poles is a Pacific security expert from 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: Massi University and with us. Now, Anna, hello, let's start 9 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: with whether this is going to happen or not. I 10 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: mean this is this is there is no way that 11 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: this ever happens? Am I right? 12 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: No? No, I do not foresee Cook Island as losing 13 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: that access. 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: Why not? 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: Well, for a start, there is the special relationship between 16 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: Cook Islands and Alto in New Zealand, and where by 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: New Zealand has a constitutional responsibility towards Cook Islands, which 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: is in free association, which is a term that's used 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: with New Zealand and it is a very it's a 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: deep relationship as a as a specific journalist said recently, 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: it's a relationship based on family and foreign policy and 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: as well as the financial side. So there is some 23 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: way to the only way that that would potentially happen 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: would be if Cork Islands became a fully independent state. 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: Which the people don't want right. 26 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 2: Well, certainly the Prime Minister Mark Brown has has stated 27 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: on a number of occasions that he would like to 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: see Cork Island's full independence, and that's where deep the mining, 29 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: for instance, becomes a really key mechanism or vehicle for 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: achieving that. But for many Cook Islanders it's fairly divided, 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: and it's fairly complex, and there are significant benefits, particularly 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: with respect to healthcare and access to good healthcare. 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: Now do you think that that slight majority in the poll, though, 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: gives Winston Peters the ability to threaten Mark Brown with that? 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think firstly we need to keep in mind, 36 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: obviously the sampling number for this poll, which was around 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: one thousand people. I don't think that it will be 38 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: particularly wise for Minister Peters to seek to continue to 39 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: kind of sort of leverage, leverage or these sort of 40 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: you know what he may see sort of a bargaining 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: chip with with Cook Islands. It's not likely to be successful. Well, 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just for a start, it's it does 43 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 2: not reflect the sort of the manna of the relationship. 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: It does not reflect the depth of the relationship. 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: And what if though the Cock Island officials were you know, 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: not turning up to meetings, refusing to take meetings, just 47 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: blanking New Zealand officials, So that was the level of 48 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: the relationship, then how much money is there? 49 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: Well, this is the question for both Cook Islands and 50 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: for New Zealand. I mean this is not just This 51 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: does not just rest with New Zealand. I think we 52 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: need to be clear on this. There has been concern, 53 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: as you say, that Ministry Foreign Affairs and Trade officials 54 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: have had difficulty accessing meetings with key individuals within the 55 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 2: Cook Islands system and that that also obviously needs to 56 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: be on the table in order to address that, using 57 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: development assistance such as the pause on the twenty million 58 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: as leverage is not likely to be successful. And this 59 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: is where there needs to be some creative thinking on 60 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: the part both in Wellington and in Cook Islands, because 61 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: if the relationship is to it's to move forward in 62 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: a positive way, which sort of reflects what the bulk 63 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: of New Zealanders and Cork Islanders would like to see 64 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: is a healthy, strong, trusted relationship right then they need 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: to reassess how they're engaging. And thank you, I. 66 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. Anapol's associate professor at the Center 67 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: for Defense and Security Studies at Massi University. 68 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 69 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: news talks. 70 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 71 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.