1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: NDTA spent an eyewater and get this, three quarters of 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: a billion bucks of taxpayers money on road cones and 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: temporary traffic management in the past three years. And that 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: doesn't include spending on local councils and contractors. The Minister 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: of Transport, simm Brown, says the cost is eyewatering and excessive. 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: Dave Tilton is the former chair of the Temporary Traffic 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: Management Industry Steering Group. He's with me this morning. Dave, 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, morning yew. Unfortunately, I think there is a 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: direct correlation between the length of somebody's job title and 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: their productivity. So I'm not holding out hope for this. Dave, 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: tell me, is he right? Does he have a point? 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: Are we spending too much? 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: I think generally the answer would be yes. Is the 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: waste in the system? Without question? 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? 16 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: I suppose how much? Is it wasteful? That's there isn't 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: a direct answer to that question yet. 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: I don't think whose fault is the waste? Is it 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: the industry that you're representing, or is that the government 20 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: regulation or both? 21 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 2: I think historically it would be the system that's constructed 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: around it. How the decisions get made as to how 23 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: much TTM gets deployed. So historically it's been a very 24 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: prescriptive system and that hasn't given a lot of room 25 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 2: for more pragmatic or site specific considerations. So systemically it 26 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: hasn't isn't designed to generate the right amount if you like. 27 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so the system because the government has just changed 28 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: the system, so it's less Intense's. 29 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 2: Probably changed about twenty twenty one was where that spun up, 30 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: so that certainly predates the current government. 31 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, so is that where they made it more 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: intense or less intense? 33 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say probably intensity is probably the word I used, 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: isn't quite right, but more flexible call it that. And 35 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: that's where that risk based system started to get designed, 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: and it just this year it started to implement. But 37 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: of course it predates in terms of its design and set, 38 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: and now it's starting to hit the ground. 39 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so the risk based system is cheaper. 40 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: It can be, Yes, I mean, there is a percentage 41 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,679 Speaker 2: of waste in the system, and this method should engineer 42 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: out that waste better than the old method. But it's 43 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: very dependent on how people do it and how people 44 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: use it, and certainly the capability in the system to 45 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: do that, which is probably the piece that's lacking. We've 46 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: got twenty five plus years of prescriptive thinking that's going 47 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: to take it wild to get out. There's a lot 48 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: of inertia that comes with that. 49 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: Right, So what percentage of a big voting project should 50 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: be on traffic management? Typically? 51 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: Well, that sevenar in a six million is nine point 52 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: three percent of their total spend out of almost eight 53 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: and a half billion, So it's actually pretty small when 54 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: you think of it. That's a very big number, not 55 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 2: diminishing that, but certainly as a percentage, it's actually quite small. 56 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: I've been involved in projects that are more than that, 57 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: and if it was half that, that'd be amazing. But 58 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: I know there is a limit on how how low 59 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: that can be in terms of getting worked. One. 60 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: How does that compare to overseas? 61 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: There isn't a huge amount of data on that, but 62 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: it's not double. Put it that way, it would be 63 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: within five percent either way, certainly. 64 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: Okay, which is still significant. What about for local councils. 65 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: There was a traffic light that has been installed in 66 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: the crossing in Auckland, and they reckon that the TTM 67 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: was twenty five to thirty five percent of the cost. 68 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got a small suburban street. I've seen 69 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: it happen, and you've got not only these temporary traffic 70 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: light things, but you've got someone with a stop ghost 71 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: sign standing next to the traffic light. I mean, what 72 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: the hell's going on there? 73 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: And like, I don't know specific examples, but those are 74 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: the kind of situations where that flexible approach might lead 75 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: to a much more pragmatic outcome. So there isn't you 76 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: know when you when you look, I. 77 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: Mean, it's clearly lots of prescription that's happening now, you know. 78 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, So when you load something that was you 79 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: know a certain about a prescription where someone goes a lot. 80 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: These are the rules I have to follow, and you know, 81 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: I've got no other way to do it, and that's 82 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: how the system is constructed around them. Then yeah, you're 83 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: going to need that. With some mismatches of environment versus 84 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: risk versus treatments. 85 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: Okay, is someone is someone? Have we saved lives with 86 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: the more prescriptive method? Was there fewer deaths than there 87 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: are now? 88 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: No? Actually the opposite. So death and serious injuries from TTM, 89 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: you know, has climbed pretty considerably over the last twenty years, which, 90 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: to be honest, was the original trigger for the rest 91 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: based approach being explored. So you know, ultimately the method 92 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: hasn't really worked, although it's not to say that, you know, 93 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: it was a bad idea. That's that's how the world works. 94 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: That's that's how every other country does it. This rest 95 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: based approach from New Zealand is world first. Really, no 96 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: one else is really doing it this. 97 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: Way, all right, Dave, thanks very much for your time. 98 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Dave Tilton, who's the former chair of the 99 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: tem Impory Traffic Management Industry Steering Group, saying that basically 100 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: we tried to do it in a prescriptive way. It 101 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: cost us a hell of a lot of money and 102 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: it didn't even work. 103 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: For more from early edition with Ryan Bridge. Listen live 104 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: to News Talk Set B from five am weekdays, or 105 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.