Speaker 1: Kiota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast.
Speaker 3: Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2: Last week we reported on the issues at Wellington City Council.
Speaker 2: After councilors voted against selling airport shares, forcing a rethink
Speaker 2: of the council's long term plan. The Coalition government labeled
Speaker 2: the council a shambles and threatened to send in a
Speaker 2: Crown Observer. Well they've now delivered on that threat, with
Speaker 2: Local Government Minister Simeon Brown confirming that appointment.
Speaker 3: Will be coming. The move puts more.
Speaker 2: Pressure on Meyortry far Now and to counselors to sort
Speaker 2: out their issues, but it has also sparked debate around
Speaker 2: if the bar is too low for the government to intervene.
Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Jim Palmer, a consultant who
Speaker 2: chaired the Review into the Future for Local Government, is
Speaker 2: with us to discuss the issues at our council tables. Jim,
Speaker 2: what was your reaction to the news about a Crown
Speaker 2: observer coming to Wellington City Council.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been an issue that has obviously challenged the
Speaker 4: Minister and those in Wellington for the last couple of
Speaker 4: three weeks, and perhaps it wasn't a surprise that ultimately
Speaker 4: an observer is to be appointed. While the circumstances of
Speaker 4: Wellington perhaps will benefit from an observer from the review
Speaker 4: that we undertook a couple of years ago, this is
Speaker 4: probably symptomatic of some of the issues that we're seeing
Speaker 4: in local government and they're more likely to recur over
Speaker 4: time given the significant challenges the sector's facing.
Speaker 3: What kind of challenges did you predict in that review?
Speaker 4: Well, over the next thirty years, they're going to be
Speaker 4: not only significant funding pressures, there's infrastructure challenges. We've got
Speaker 4: economic and geopolitical impacts that we're uncertain how to play out.
Speaker 4: Extreme weather events are coming, We've got persistent inequity, low
Speaker 4: social cohesion, and things like climate change. All of those
Speaker 4: things play out locally and they are very demanding and
Speaker 4: put extreme pressures on local communities, on local government, and
Speaker 4: currently in the review panels view the current systems just
Speaker 4: not set up to be able to handle those challenges.
Speaker 4: So the types of issues that we're seeing in Wellington
Speaker 4: are likely to recur more frequently.
Speaker 2: What sort of precedent is there for a Crown observer
Speaker 2: to be appointed? It's not a common occurrence, is it.
Speaker 2: But it's not really that rare either.
Speaker 4: Well, the Minister had a number of options available to
Speaker 4: him intervening should he choose to do so, and the
Speaker 4: Crown observer is one to my knowledge, there's been one
Speaker 4: previously in Westland that there have been other Crown managers appointed,
Speaker 4: recently in Laodore for flooding, previously in christ Church City
Speaker 4: over building control, and more publicized have been the commissioner
Speaker 4: appointments at Todong, e Ken and Kuypra. So there has
Speaker 4: been precedent for intervention at times, and obviously the Minister,
Speaker 4: based on the advice he's received, believed that a threshold
Speaker 4: had been met for that type of intervention. An observer
Speaker 4: is probably the lightest touch intervention that probably could have
Speaker 4: been decided upon.
Speaker 5: It is my view that we accept this and work
Speaker 5: constructively with whoever is appointed. The Minister has fairly pointed
Speaker 5: out instances where councilors have walked down meetings, refused to
Speaker 5: go and have also publicly criticized each other and council staff.
Speaker 5: The council will have to pay for this unexpected cost.
Speaker 2: One criticism that's emerged from some academics and commentators is
Speaker 2: that the bar for an observer might be a bit
Speaker 2: too low, particularly at the moment when a lot of
Speaker 2: councils have financial issues.
Speaker 3: What do you make of that viewpoint.
Speaker 4: I'm not quite sure the advice the Minister has received
Speaker 4: and that'll be released in due course, no doubt, but
Speaker 4: which will probably have traversed that very question. You've certainly
Speaker 4: got to let democracy take its course, and that's not
Speaker 4: always smooth, and there is the three year annual performance
Speaker 4: review that the councilors and mayors go through which the
Speaker 4: community passes a verdict on how well they've performed. But
Speaker 4: in the meantime, you know, sometimes some councils do need help.
Speaker 4: And in the case of Wellington, yeah, they've got some
Speaker 4: significant financial challenges that are trying to work their way through,
Speaker 4: and they've got a council that has probably struggled to
Speaker 4: consistently deliver the leadership. The fact that they're just down
Speaker 4: the road from Parliament and quite public and visible, and
Speaker 4: they've had a couple of other issues that recur in
Speaker 4: the media have added to that pressure. So it's perhaps
Speaker 4: not unsurprising that the Minister has decided, but it's whether
Speaker 4: that creates a bar, I'm not so sure. I think
Speaker 4: every situation will need close, separate consideration, and I don't
Speaker 4: think there's necessarily a bar that can be easily articulated
Speaker 4: to say this is the point where an observer or
Speaker 4: greater intervention is required and we are not. So it's
Speaker 4: a judgment call, and ultimately the minister has the responsibility
Speaker 4: to make that.
Speaker 2: So you reckon that this could happen a bit more
Speaker 2: often than in the past, I suppose. Do you think
Speaker 2: other councils are worried taking in Viicago, for example, where
Speaker 2: Mayor Nobby Clark has twice been censured by his own
Speaker 2: counsel over comments is made in public. Does that meet
Speaker 2: the threshold of concern or does Wellington have the kind
Speaker 2: of misfortune of, like you said, being in capital city,
Speaker 2: being a little bit closer to central government.
Speaker 4: I'm not wanting to comment on the particulars of Invercago,
Speaker 4: and probably no, there are mechanisms to address that, and clearly,
Speaker 4: if there had been sufficient concern about that, then there
Speaker 4: may have been next already taken. So clearly in that
Speaker 4: case there has been no intervention, and they're from a
Speaker 4: national perspective obviously, wasn't considered to meet a threshold if
Speaker 4: there is such a threshold, So yeah, each case is
Speaker 4: going to require its own consideration, and a large part
Speaker 4: of it is how the actual elected members tackle the challenges.
Speaker 4: There are challenges of plenty coming for local government and
Speaker 4: we've seen that with large rate increases signaled in ltps
Speaker 4: and they will be there for years to come, along
Speaker 4: with debt ceilings which are making investment and infrastructure challenging
Speaker 4: and in some cases unaffordable or communities, and that's where
Speaker 4: the funding model needs a total reset. So those type
Speaker 4: of issues are recurring and until there is some systemic
Speaker 4: change then it sounds a little gloomy to say, but
Speaker 4: I would suggest that these type of issues are going
Speaker 4: to be on the front pages of papers more and
Speaker 4: more frequently.
Speaker 2: Do you think the public takes into account how important
Speaker 2: local councils are.
Speaker 4: I think generally people love living in the communities that
Speaker 4: they reside and really enjoy the amenity and the services
Speaker 4: that they have on hand, but many take those for
Speaker 4: granted absolutely. You know, local government touches individuals every day
Speaker 4: in multiple ways. From the minute you get up and
Speaker 4: blush the loo and brush your teeth through to drive
Speaker 4: and being in parks and pools and libraries, and the
Speaker 4: fabulous facilities and activities that are supported that support a
Speaker 4: community to make communities great. All of those things generally
Speaker 4: are led or supported by local government and so they
Speaker 4: have a far greater impact on people's day to day
Speaker 4: lives than perhaps many appreciate.
Speaker 2: The local election numbers compared to national election turnout numbers
Speaker 2: are significant different as well, so maybe people should be
Speaker 2: reflecting on the importance of their local councils a little
Speaker 2: bit more. And during the election campaign a National Party
Speaker 2: spokesperson actually told stuff local government has an important role
Speaker 2: to play, but too often councils are an after thought
Speaker 2: for central government. Would you agree with that statement? Should
Speaker 2: central government work more with local councils.
Speaker 4: Our review undoubtedly recommended that there needs to be far
Speaker 4: stronger partnership, genuine partnership, and it's not the command and
Speaker 4: control style that successive governments. And I'm not just this government,
Speaker 4: but many governments take a paternalistic view of local government
Speaker 4: and there is great opportunity for central and local government
Speaker 4: to be working together. I talked with one mayor in
Speaker 4: a region and they're talking about youth unemployment, and they
Speaker 4: said that there were ninety different agencies being funded to
Speaker 4: address youth unemployment and they range from central government agencies,
Speaker 4: local government NGO and other organizations, all trying to do
Speaker 4: the right thing, but a lack of focus. If they'd
Speaker 4: come together and said okay, here are the three or
Speaker 4: four agencies that could be delivering this and delivering it
Speaker 4: far more effectively, we could get far greater value for
Speaker 4: money out of that. Also, the way in which government
Speaker 4: and local government are prepared to partner with community, community organizations,
Speaker 4: community groups. This huge amount of volunteering and goodwill in
Speaker 4: a community, if it's engendered in the right way, there
Speaker 4: is great grassroots opportunities to deliver far better value as well.
Speaker 4: So the opportunity is immense, but it does require a
Speaker 4: fundamental reset of the relationship between central government and local government.
Speaker 4: Particularly in the first.
Speaker 2: Instance, the government dared revoke three waters, which many local
Speaker 2: councils weren't a fan of. But in other areas the
Speaker 2: government has actually been a bit more firm with councils.
Speaker 2: Councils that want to keep their multi wards now have
Speaker 2: to hold a referendum on that, and Prime Minister Chris
Speaker 2: va Luxe has had strong words for counsels at a
Speaker 2: conference in August, telling them to rain in the spending.
Speaker 6: Rate Payers expect local government to do the basics, pick
Speaker 6: up the rubbish, fix the pipes, fill in the potholes,
Speaker 6: and more generally, maintain the local assets quickly, carefully and
Speaker 6: cost effectively. What they don't expect to pay for is
Speaker 6: a laundry list of distractions and experiments that are plaguing
Speaker 6: council balance sheets across the country.
Speaker 2: Is this the right message and we're talking about that
Speaker 2: relationship that government should be fostering and sending if it
Speaker 2: does want to work constructively with councils.
Speaker 4: Yeah, building a strong, genuine partnership requires trust and confidence
Speaker 4: in each other, and that takes some time. It takes
Speaker 4: people to be in the room and get together and
Speaker 4: understand the different perspectives. Certainly understand the government has three
Speaker 4: years in a series of priorities that it wishes to
Speaker 4: pursue and doesn't want to be distracted by things which
Speaker 4: don't necessary very early aligned with its priorities. I think
Speaker 4: that's been understood by local government. But to go to
Speaker 4: the fundamental reset, then there does need to be a
Speaker 4: change in the way and which central government and local
Speaker 4: government relate to each other and work together. We identified
Speaker 4: significant opportunities to be able to reimagine the way and
Speaker 4: which central government and local government work together and with respect.
Speaker 4: I don't see those actions being taken to the extent
Speaker 4: needed to create the change that will benefit ultimately the
Speaker 4: communities that both government and local government are there to serve.
Speaker 3: Yeah, nobody really likes to be told what to do.
Speaker 2: It's like having a big brother and them saying no,
Speaker 2: you're doing it wrong, do it this way, and not
Speaker 2: really having a constructive conversation about it.
Speaker 3: Hey.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and it's not just this government. Successive governments have
Speaker 4: taken that approach, which is difficult to respond to, and
Speaker 4: local government traditionally has been an easy course to whip
Speaker 4: in has been and sometimes local government, to be honest,
Speaker 4: doesn't help itself and provides plenty of opportunities and dead
Speaker 4: rats to be held up and examined. And what happens
Speaker 4: with one many get card with the same brush, and
Speaker 4: so you know, the unfortunate reflection on the whole sector
Speaker 4: that perhaps isn't always warrant.
Speaker 1: Every new government that comes into office talks about building
Speaker 1: strong relations with local government, but successive National and Labor
Speaker 1: governments have a buttered call from local government for new
Speaker 1: funding tools like ending GST on rates, pain rates on
Speaker 1: crown property and if anything, successive governments have added costs
Speaker 1: to local government. The end of the day, central government
Speaker 1: has not been willing to hand over new funding tools
Speaker 1: that would take the pressure off Ugland Council and all
Speaker 1: the councils around the country.
Speaker 2: You chaired the Future for Local Government review which was
Speaker 2: announced by the Labor government. In terms of those seventeen
Speaker 2: recommendations that the review made, how do you think they're
Speaker 2: going Has any been acted upon?
Speaker 4: Certainly, Local Government New Zealand, the body who represents the
Speaker 4: interests of local councils, certainly did a good job in
Speaker 4: analyzing the report and thinking about recommendations that wanted to
Speaker 4: support the government. To be honest, there's only a handful
Speaker 4: of recommendations that are in one way or another being considered.
Speaker 4: The issue of funding generally no funding, although the government
Speaker 4: might consider some bespoke funding arrangements such as congestion charging
Speaker 4: or bid tax or the like, minor concessions. We did
Speaker 4: talk about the opportunity for city and regional deals, which
Speaker 4: has been picked up by the government, although to be honest,
Speaker 4: rather slowly. It's going to take some years for those
Speaker 4: to emerge in be bedded, and there is a consideration
Speaker 4: of electoral change changing the electoral cycle. There are some
Speaker 4: aspects of the review that are being picked up and
Speaker 4: being indirectly given attention to, given that the Minister didn't
Speaker 4: accept the report's recommendation, so there is change. Our panel
Speaker 4: was off the view though that to make the level
Speaker 4: of change that was required, it actually required a systematic
Speaker 4: implementation of all of the recommendations. You just couldn't cherry
Speaker 4: pick one or two.
Speaker 2: Are there any of those recommendations that you just want
Speaker 2: to see happen if you could click your fingers and
Speaker 2: have it happen tomorrow.
Speaker 3: What do you think needs to happen.
Speaker 4: Well, there's a as I say, there were seventeen that
Speaker 4: we thought were pretty important. In those nothing happens until
Speaker 4: there is a fundamental reset of the relationship between central
Speaker 4: and local government. Funding is a particular concern and underpins
Speaker 4: many of the challenges the sector face. Increasing the governance
Speaker 4: capacity and capability of local government as in a important thing.
Speaker 4: Investing in training and development for elected members and ensuring
Speaker 4: that they've got the right people to support it. Local government,
Speaker 4: you know, there needs to be a reconsideration whether the
Speaker 4: way in which local government is currently structured is sustainable
Speaker 4: and is going to be able to deliver to the future.
Speaker 4: So they are some other things, but there are many others,
Speaker 4: including the importance of a strong t tendity relationship with
Speaker 4: ee HAPU. That was a key issue that we identified
Speaker 4: as well. So there are many issues that our panel
Speaker 4: traverse that we believe there needed to be significant change
Speaker 4: initiated otherwise. You know, in my view, in five to
Speaker 4: ten years time, people will look back at our report
Speaker 4: as these issues continue to present significant challenges and there
Speaker 4: might be a lost opportunity that sits amongst that.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Jim. That said, for this episode
Speaker 3: of The Front Page.
Speaker 2: You can read more about today's stories and extensive coverage
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Speaker 3: Dot co dot z.
Speaker 2: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound
Speaker 2: engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
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Speaker 3: Another look behind the headlines.