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Speaker 1: John Grisham is back with a twister. He's written fifty

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Speaker 1: consecutive number ones, of course, most of them legal thrillers. Framed, though,

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Speaker 1: is only a second non fiction piece of work. Part

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Speaker 1: of his life these days is working with the Innocents

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Speaker 1: Project and Centurion Ministries, helping innocent people get out of prison.

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Speaker 1: That is what framed us about ten extraordinary real accounts

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Speaker 1: of people wrongfully convicted. John Grisham is with.

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Speaker 2: Us morning, happy to be here, a good scene again, and.

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Speaker 1: As far as Jim McCloskey is concerned, tell us all

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Speaker 1: about him.

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Speaker 2: He's a great American hero. He's spent the last forty

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Speaker 2: five years exonerating innocent people who were in prison, and

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Speaker 2: he worked by himself for many years, and now he

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Speaker 2: has a nice organization, Centurion Ministries. They have exonerated seventy

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Speaker 2: two people two women, I think are the rest men

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Speaker 2: who were wrongfully convicted and stashed away in prisons for

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Speaker 2: as long as thirty years thirty seven years. And Jim

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Speaker 2: got him out them out through by a combination of

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Speaker 2: hard work, investigative prowess, and leaning on people to give

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Speaker 2: him money and lawyers to work for free. And he's

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Speaker 2: an amazing person.

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Speaker 1: How did you hook up with him?

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book called Innocent Man that came out

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and six. My first work of nonfiction

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Speaker 2: is about a wrongfully convicted man, and Jim and I

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Speaker 2: met over that book and became very close friends for

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Speaker 2: the past fifteen years, and I'm on his board now.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about doing this book for a number of

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Speaker 2: years because these stories are so They're so terrible, but

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Speaker 2: they're also very compelling and really gripping stories.

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Speaker 1: Is it cathotic work?

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I think I approached it

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Speaker 2: from a point of view. First of all, it's good storytelling.

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Speaker 2: I'm always looking for a good story. It's also trying

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Speaker 2: to make a change, trying to raise awareness, trying to

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Speaker 2: get people and lawmakers to look at the problem. We

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Speaker 2: have so many huge problems in America and our criminal

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Speaker 2: justice system. It's not a top ten issue anywhere. It's

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Speaker 2: it's just criminal. You know, there are criminals. So trying

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Speaker 2: to raise awareness, trying to raise a few bucks for

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Speaker 2: the innocence of advocates in the country. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: just you know, there's there's a purpose behind it.

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Speaker 1: Does it get any better? I mean, we've had similar troubles,

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Speaker 1: nothing like America obviously, but similar troubles. But it was

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Speaker 1: a time and place like it was in the eighties

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Speaker 1: and things have got better. Has that happened in America

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Speaker 1: or not?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And no crime is down, violent crime is down.

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Speaker 2: There are fewer executions this year than last year. That

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Speaker 2: trend is really down. There are fewer death penalty verdicts

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Speaker 2: in America. The death penalty is dying a slow death

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Speaker 2: in America, which is good. Police are now using DNA

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Speaker 2: to solve crimes. So we're making slow progress there. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're trying to pass laws that make wrongful convictions harder

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Speaker 2: and harder to come by. So yeah, that's saying we're

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Speaker 2: making a little small progress, a little progress.

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Speaker 1: Is it hard if you set out and you started

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Speaker 1: today to find an innocent person in jail that faces

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Speaker 1: the death penalty? Is it hard to find a case?

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Speaker 2: Note at all? No, note at all, none at all.

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Speaker 2: There have been one hundred and sixty people in America

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Speaker 2: in the last thirty years sent to death row who

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Speaker 2: were later exonerated. That's why the death penalty has got

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Speaker 2: to go. It's so unfair and it's not correct. It's

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Speaker 2: not applied smartly or evenly. So yeah, you can. You can.

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Speaker 2: There are about fifty different innocence projects around the country,

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Speaker 2: all sort of related, but all independent. You can volunteer

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Speaker 2: at an innocence project anywhere in this country. There are

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Speaker 2: three here in Virginia and sign up as a volunteer.

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Speaker 2: They've got a list of their cases, and they've got

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Speaker 2: a list of their clients. In prison, you can find

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Speaker 2: innocent people real fast. In prison. Are those who claim

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Speaker 2: to be innocent. Do your own investigation, look at the facts,

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Speaker 2: and they're they're easy to find.

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Speaker 1: Does it not work? Where you get an innocent person,

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Speaker 1: they're exonerated and the system goes, this must not happen again,

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Speaker 1: and therefore something improves.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's happened so many times in the last thirty years.

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Speaker 2: These horrible exonerations are these horrible, wrongful convictions. And you

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Speaker 2: see a guy walk out after thirty years and somebody,

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Speaker 2: the real killer was never found because the cops botched

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Speaker 2: this case a bad and we wring our hands and say,

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Speaker 2: how can this happen? How could this happen? Well, one

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Speaker 2: purpose of the book is to show you how it happens.

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Speaker 2: But you know we say. We never say, oh, it

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Speaker 2: can never happen again, because we know it's going to

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Speaker 2: happen again. There are just too many decent people in prison.

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Speaker 1: Is it botched through incompetence or is it botched through

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Speaker 1: things like racism?

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Speaker 2: That both of those are huge factors. The ten stories

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Speaker 2: we feature Inframed deal with willful misconduct, bad conduct by

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Speaker 2: the police, the prosecutors, and the experts. It's just almost

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Speaker 2: intentional what they did, how they ignored real evidence. You

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Speaker 2: can't believe these cases. When Jim and I were writing

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Speaker 2: a book, we'd finish the story and send it off

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Speaker 2: to New York and our editor would call it every

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Speaker 2: time and say, this cannot be true. These cases can't

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Speaker 2: be true. I guarantee you they're all true. But it's

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Speaker 2: Racism is a huge factor in confidence, is a huge

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Speaker 2: factor in old fashioned, downright what we say meanness, willful

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Speaker 2: misconduct is any is.

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Speaker 1: Some of the people in law enforcement in America are

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Speaker 1: elected to office. Is that part of the problem or.

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Speaker 2: Not huge part, huge part. We elect our prosecutors most

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Speaker 2: of them, we elect most of our judges most of them.

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Speaker 2: And politics gets involved in the campaigns. Everything is so

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Speaker 2: politicized over here that it's bound to be it's bound

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Speaker 2: to infect races for prosecutors and judges, that we should

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Speaker 2: not elect any judge anywhere in America or any prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: All right, listen, what do you hope to get out

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Speaker 1: of this book? Because I mean, once your name gets

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Speaker 1: associated with something, I'm assuming you want some wheels to

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Speaker 1: do well.

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Speaker 2: We would love to obviously raise awareness. We hope that

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Speaker 2: somebody somewhere, some lawmakers, some judge, somebody will read the

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Speaker 2: book and have an awakening. We would love for it

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Speaker 2: to inspire others to get involved with innocence work. We'd

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Speaker 2: love to raise a few bucks because innocence projects around

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Speaker 2: the country operate on shoe strings. And it's a proven

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Speaker 2: it's an easy fact. We all know it. The more

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Speaker 2: money you have for innocence work, the more innocent people

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Speaker 2: you can get out to hire experts and testing and

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Speaker 2: lawyers and all that. So they're all desperate for cash.

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Speaker 2: Every instance project in America is strapped for cash, and

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Speaker 2: we're trying to raise a few bucks.

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Speaker 1: Is it also true to say that if you are

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Speaker 1: arrested and you do have money, you can afford better

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Speaker 1: legal representation, and maybe if you are innocent, you don't

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Speaker 1: end up on death row.

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Speaker 2: I have never met a wealthy person on death row.

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Speaker 2: They're not there. Okay, they're not there.

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Speaker 1: So you can get if you get a good lawyer.

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Speaker 1: The case I was reading the day a guy called Robison,

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Speaker 1: Robert Robinson. He was due for execution. You were involved

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Speaker 1: in this case. He was due for execution seventeen October.

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Speaker 1: Was he executed?

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Speaker 2: No, he got a miracle stay at the last moment,

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Speaker 2: but ninety minutes to go. This is Texas, Okay, so

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Speaker 2: the deck is stacked against him. We're still in court

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Speaker 2: his law. He has a huge legal team because he's

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Speaker 2: innocent and we have experts to prove it. We're trying

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Speaker 2: to get the Texas course to take another look, and

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Speaker 2: they don't want to, so we're fighting. He is about

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Speaker 2: to probably get another execution date, which will be setting

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Speaker 2: ninety days down the road. So we're about to go

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Speaker 2: through the whole process again. We had a miracle last time.

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Speaker 2: We'll try it again. Missouri had a guy a few

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Speaker 2: years ago who had his last meal three times. Okay,

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Speaker 2: he was given his last meal. Talk about cruel, cruel.

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Speaker 2: Poor guy's about to die. It's his last meal three times,

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Speaker 2: last minute's stay, he goes back to his cell. Happens

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Speaker 2: all the time over here. It's a crazy system.

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Speaker 1: How do you not become I mean, I'm sure you are,

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Speaker 1: but how do you not become sort of consumed with

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Speaker 1: emotion once you evolve yourself with these cases.

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Speaker 2: I'm not emotional, so I don't get emotional over things

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Speaker 2: I can't control. I've never witnessed an execution. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: that would have a huge impact on me. I've talked

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Speaker 2: to lawyers who have and they all say, don't do it,

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Speaker 2: Just don't do it. If you could avoid it, that

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Speaker 2: would be very emotional. I get emotional when they walk

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Speaker 2: out of PRISM. When these guys walk out after twenty

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Speaker 2: five years and their mothers are waiting on them, and

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Speaker 2: their mothers never lost hope. That mothers always knew they

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Speaker 2: were innocent, and we finally proved that. Somebody proves it

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Speaker 2: on me, some initial instance groups and some lawyer proves it.

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Speaker 2: They get the DNA testing, they walk out of PRISM

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Speaker 2: and there's not a dry eye anywhere. Once a year

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Speaker 2: at Centurion Ministries, Jim mccloskey's group in Princeton. He has

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Speaker 2: a family weekend. All of his exgneries come back and

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Speaker 2: they bring their wives and kids and what their grandkids.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge it's a huge weekend. I've been there

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Speaker 2: several times and there are times there's not a dry

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Speaker 2: eye anywhere. You just you know, you're all wrapped up

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Speaker 2: in These guys have suffered so much and now they're free.

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Speaker 2: So it's a there's a lot of emotion at certain times.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic. Well, I hope the book goes well, and I

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Speaker 1: hope it draws a lot of attention to the issue.

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Speaker 1: While we've got you, I cannot go past what's happened

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Speaker 1: in the last couple of weeks and you'll find country.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of it all?

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Speaker 2: I don't know where to start. I mean, it's we're

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Speaker 2: all traumatized. We we we're just kind of sleep walking

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Speaker 2: through the aftermath of a nightmare. And you know, my

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Speaker 2: friends and I we we're sort of tired of talking

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Speaker 2: about all the things that went wrong. And now we're

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Speaker 2: braced for another chaotic day in the world of American government.

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Speaker 2: And it hadn't even really started yet to have to

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Speaker 2: have for one man to have this much battle with

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Speaker 2: the Congress and the courts and to have such a

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Speaker 2: lack of common sense, it's going to be a disaster.

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Speaker 2: So we're kind of bracing ourselves for like four years

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Speaker 2: we've never seen before. I feel sorry for the rest

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Speaker 2: of the world because you know, the rest of the

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Speaker 2: world kind of depends on us to be the democratic,

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Speaker 2: not savior, but monitor of the world, the heartbeat of

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Speaker 2: the world. And we know our democracy is really really

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Speaker 2: in danger right now.

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Speaker 1: So you would argue sixteen through twenty versus twenty four

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Speaker 1: through twenty eight. Twenty four through twenty eight, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be worse than sixteen through twenty.

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Speaker 2: Much worse because back then, at sixteen through twenty, he

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Speaker 2: was facing reelection, so we had to at least think

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Speaker 2: about what he was doing and how it might affect

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Speaker 2: his chances to get reelected. Now he's not, He doesn't

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Speaker 2: have that burden anymore. He is free to do whatever

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Speaker 2: he wants, and he wants to be a dictator. He

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Speaker 2: said that he wants to be a fascist dictator, that

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Speaker 2: he admires those people, and he will try. We have

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Speaker 2: no idea he's gonna try. He will, He will try

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Speaker 2: in many ways to get filthy rich, and he probably

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Speaker 2: will he'll punish his enemies, he'll purge the government. He

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Speaker 2: you know it's going to be uh. They're going to

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Speaker 2: round up around up a lot of illegal immigrants and

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Speaker 2: ship them somewhere where they're going. That could have a

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Speaker 2: huge impact on the economy because those people are the workers.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's a nightmare. It's a total nightmare.

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Speaker 1: It is a great pleasure as always to have you

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Speaker 1: on the program. By the way, before we talk next time,

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Speaker 1: I have you with a significant birthday in the early

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Speaker 1: part of next year.

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Speaker 2: The Big seven zero you got. My wife wished to

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Speaker 2: plan a birthday party, and I'm not sure I want

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Speaker 2: to do that. I have to pass quietly. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't celebrate birthdays. I'm happy for him now. I'm

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Speaker 2: happy for birthdays because I've lost so many friends who

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Speaker 2: didn't make it to seventy. But you know, I'll be happy.

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Speaker 1: But let's keep it quiet, go well, John Grisham. Framed

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Speaker 1: is the book. For more from the Mic Hosking Breakfast,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks it'd be from six am weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on Iheartrady Out