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Speaker 1: Now Wellington EWE NA Tangata is challenging ACT Party leader

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Speaker 1: David Seymour to a public debate on the Treaty Principles Bill.

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Speaker 1: The EE says Seymour has constantly challenged New Zealanders to

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Speaker 1: have a national conversation about the Treaty and now it's

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Speaker 1: time for him to front up and have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: The ewe's chief executive, Helmet Modelick, is with us. Now, hey,

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Speaker 1: Helmet Shelder, Okay, when and where do you want to

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Speaker 1: have this debate?

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Speaker 2: Anytime? Anywhere, as long as we're able to actually ensure

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Speaker 2: that it gets some coverage, because the audience for the

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Speaker 2: debate that I'm actually hoping for isn't David is actually

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Speaker 2: as our fellow citizens, I'm really wanting to surface for

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Speaker 2: New Zealanders the issues that keep getting alluded to but

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Speaker 2: never really directly addressed, so that anywhere, anytime, I'll be happy.

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Speaker 1: Obviously you want to do it and put it all.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, that would be nice, but I'm happy if

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Speaker 2: you do it to go anywhere.

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Speaker 1: You could come and do it up here with me

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Speaker 1: and bring some bring some economic developments into my part

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Speaker 1: of the world. But I'm sure you want to bring

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Speaker 1: it to yours right, Yes, we'll that to yet, okay,

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Speaker 1: and then are you happy to wait till November?

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Speaker 2: Well, nothing really will happen in November other than that

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Speaker 2: people yell at each other, you know. So if I

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Speaker 2: sit in a if I'm in a select committee and

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Speaker 2: I'm making a submission, I'm giving him a ten minutes.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting you have to go to a select committee.

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Speaker 1: What I mean is are you happy to wait until

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Speaker 1: we've actually seen the draft of the bill in November.

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Speaker 2: So David's made allusion to the alluded to the fact

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Speaker 2: that he thinks will be surprised with what he has

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Speaker 2: as to offer up. Yeah, but if you have a

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Speaker 2: read of what x website says about everything to do

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Speaker 2: with this issue, it's not really credible that it's going

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Speaker 2: to be a departure from that. And so that's a

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Speaker 2: marginal consideration. I mean, if we wait till November and

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Speaker 2: he has a debate, then cool. Truly, I'd be happy

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Speaker 2: then too. It's just really about engaging with the issue

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Speaker 2: and letting New Zealanders actually hear the range of considerations

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Speaker 2: that are relevant.

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Speaker 1: That's all I'm after now, I think fair enough, But

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Speaker 1: why does he need to debate No disrespect to you,

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Speaker 1: but why does he need to debate you on this

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Speaker 1: when he can actually be having that debate with other

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Speaker 1: elected parliamentarians when the bill is put before the house.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever been to parliament? Have you listened to

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Speaker 2: what they say? And then that's not that's not a

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Speaker 2: deliberation exercise. They just talk at each other, play games.

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Speaker 2: No one, This is a good faith invitation. So I

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Speaker 2: actually know David a bit. I've spent a bit of

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Speaker 2: time with him. I actually think he's a genuine person.

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Speaker 2: I think he believes entirely what he's trying to do.

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Speaker 2: So this is a good faith exercise to surface for

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Speaker 2: the country the breadth of issues that are in play.

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Speaker 2: I'm not looking for an entertainment exercise or to embarrass David.

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Speaker 2: I really am trying to just surface for New Zealanders,

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Speaker 2: both sides of the debate. It's that important.

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Speaker 1: Hey, on the general subject of whether we need to

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Speaker 1: have a debate on this, what do you reckon excellently?

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Speaker 1: You're cool about it, just because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are pretty opposed to the fact that he's raised this

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Speaker 1: at all. But you're saying this is okay for us.

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Speaker 2: To do well. I think that one of the big

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Speaker 2: mistakes that's been made around the world and other democracy

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Speaker 2: is that people have retrenched into positions where they actually

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Speaker 2: don't talk to each other anymore, and it's created you know,

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Speaker 2: the democracies around the world. The United States is probably

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest messes in that regard. So we

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Speaker 2: don't want to go down that route. So let's have

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Speaker 2: the conversation in a respectful, open dialogue and then let's

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Speaker 2: play it out. That's all I'm looking for.

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Speaker 1: If we have the debate helmet, it's always possible that

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Speaker 1: it goes at the end result. I mean, because regardless

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Speaker 1: of what this particular parliament may do, it may be

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Speaker 1: around for the next parliament, and it may be that

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Speaker 1: he actually has support and he passes the Treaty Principles

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Speaker 1: Bill into law. How would you feel about that, whatever

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Speaker 1: it is?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, well, look, there's a key issue that keeps

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Speaker 2: getting conflated. Right, So David keeps talking about democracy. Democracy

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Speaker 2: has not actually got anything to do with truth. If

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Speaker 2: we had half the population were color blind and all

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Speaker 2: voted that the sky was green, it wouldn't really change

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Speaker 2: the fact that it's not right. And so the historical

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Speaker 2: reality that relates to titidity, your white tongue, and what

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Speaker 2: it is to say and what it means, that's not

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Speaker 2: a debate. But the debate is what are we going

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Speaker 2: to do about it in the twenty fifth century? Now,

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Speaker 2: that is a conversation with having. Now, if the majority

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Speaker 2: of New Zealanders actually end up in a place that

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Speaker 2: does violence to the facts, to the truth, to the

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Speaker 2: legitimacy of the position as it's laid out, then that's

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Speaker 2: a call that New Zealanders will make. I don't believe

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Speaker 2: they will. I think, in fact, that this is a

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Speaker 2: last gasp Anglo Saxon kickback of baby boomers and those

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Speaker 2: at that end of their life cycle. If you spoke

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Speaker 2: to most New Zealanders of forty years or under, they

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Speaker 2: will have a very different attitude to most of this stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not particularly concerned about where it will land.

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Speaker 2: For the reason is that, you know, to be frank,

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Speaker 2: We're right. The treaty does say what it says, and

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Speaker 2: all we have to figure out is what are we

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Speaker 2: going to do about it? In the twenty fifth century. Now,

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Speaker 2: we were on a trajectory of figuring that out. Now.

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Speaker 2: I knew it was discomforting to some people, but we

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Speaker 2: had for three or four decades we've been on a

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Speaker 2: pathway of truth and reconciliation and figuring that out. That's

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Speaker 2: all we got to do. Get back on that path

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Speaker 2: and keep talking.

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Speaker 1: Helmet. It's good to talk to you, mate, Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much, really appreciate it. Is Helmet Modlock. Modlock, who

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Speaker 1: is the chief executive of NATI, tour the eway around Wellington.

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