1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Yoda. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: The Front Page, the NSID Herald's daily news podcast. While 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: The Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 2: look back at some of the biggest news stories and 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 2: top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: New episodes will return on January thirteenth. The disappearances of 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: Ben Smart and Olivia Hope on New Year's Day nineteen 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: ninety eight remains one of New Zealand's most infamous cases. 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: Scott Watson has spent the last twenty five years behind 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: bars after being convicted of murdering them, despite no bodies 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: ever being found. In June, Watson headed back to the 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: court room, four years after his case was referred to 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: the Court of Appeal. It's his last at clearing his name. 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: There's still no word yet on the result of his 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: latest appeal. We spoke with Enzied Herald's senior journalist Carolyn 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: mgyee and editorial leader Oscar Alli, who took us back 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: to nineteen ninety nine when they both covered Watson's infamous 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: first trial, and we ran through the evidence making up 20 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: this appeal with senior reporter David Fisher. Do you both 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: remember when the news came in that Ben and Olivia 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 2: had gone missing? 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. 24 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 4: Yes. 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: It was extraordinary really for a number of reasons, because, 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: I mean, let's face it, most people remember New Year's 27 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: Eve nights and going out and parting, and no one 28 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 3: would ever think two young kids would never come home 29 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 3: to their families and are still missing. 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 4: It was massive from the start, and you've got to 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 4: remember too that it was Newyear's Day they were missing, 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 4: very quiet time for the news. So sometimes stories become 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 4: bigger faster because. 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: It's not a lot happening in the country. 35 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 4: But you know, a couple of really attractive kids doing 36 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 4: what a lot of kids of that age did, which 37 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 4: is their first holidays with their friends, not their family. 38 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 4: And also, to be fair to their parents, they were 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 4: very vocal very quickly that you can see the concern, 40 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 4: and obviously as the days went on it just got 41 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 4: grimmar and Grimmar. 42 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: Not to mention their surnames, Hope and Smart. You know, 43 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: they were the perfect set of white middle class kids, beautiful, intelligent, 44 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 3: their whole lives ahead of them, and I think that's 45 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: what capitivated the country too, because I think if it was, 46 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 3: you know, is some different people in a small town 47 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: for example, there wouldn't have been such a huge kind 48 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 3: of interest. 49 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: So you got to remember too, this is ninety seven 50 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 4: ninety eight, no cell phones. We all carry GPS devices 51 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 4: now called smartphones. People didn't go missing rarely in this 52 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 4: country back then, and you were as a kid growing up, 53 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: you went out for a day and your parents know 54 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 4: where you were. There was no phone to ring you on. 55 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 4: There wasn't necessarily a payphone. So it was a very 56 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 4: different age. It's more than twenty five years ago. It'd 57 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 4: be hard to think people going missing like that nowadays, 58 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 4: with all the technology that we have, cell phones, pinging towers. 59 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 4: But back in ninety seven ninety eight, it was very 60 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 4: rare for people to just disappear. Especially it's such a 61 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: busy three thousand people at that party. 62 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: It just didn't happen. 63 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: It took about six months for Scott Watson to be 64 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: arrested and charged with the case. Now, how was he 65 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: portrayed in the public eye over that time. 66 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 3: Well, in my opinion, I think he was portrayed as 67 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 3: quite a villain from the outset and certainly from the 68 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 3: police's perspective. At the time, there was such a huge 69 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: pressure for the police to convict someone for these two 70 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: kids going missing, and Scott, you know, given his background 71 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 3: as a young teenager, was always in trouble. He was 72 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 3: actually in balls Staal and from memory when he was 73 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: in borll Staol as a teenager, he we covered a 74 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: story at the time for sixty minutes stabbed the padre 75 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: and the eye with a big spike. So he was 76 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: a bad egg from a young age. But to be honest, 77 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: I think that he was probably unfairly the lined at 78 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: the artset. He was on his own at the time. 79 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: At the party, he was very drunk, very obnoxious, hitting 80 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: on women, being really inappropriate, So he didn't portray himself 81 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: in very good light in those circumstances. 82 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 4: I think it's been pretty well established now that police 83 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 4: were leaky and while it took six months to arrest 84 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 4: Scott Watson, they pulled his boat The Blade, out of 85 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 4: the water on January the twelfth, and every TV camera 86 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 4: and newspaper photographer knew to be there for that. And 87 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 4: once that happened in broad daylight with an audience of media, 88 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 4: it was pretty obvious that Watson was a significant person 89 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 4: of interest. It got reported that he had forty eight 90 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 4: previous criminal convictions. And you've got to understand when there's 91 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 4: a six month gap between people going missing and someone 92 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 4: being charged, it's a long period of time where the 93 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 4: media can report about people there's no subject to say 94 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 4: because no charges are being laid or are about to 95 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 4: be laid. And that had a lot of consequences when 96 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: it came time for the trial and people giving evidence 97 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 4: as witnesses in the High Court who'd been interviewed by 98 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 4: media days after it happened. It caused a lot of complications. 99 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 5: And there are a lot of people who are happy 100 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 5: to say and you heard this so much at the time, 101 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 5: you know, well, we're maybe a little unsure whether he 102 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 5: did it or not, but he's not a very nice guy. 103 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 5: Does it really matter? Yes, it matters a lot, because 104 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 5: if we can do that for him, we can do 105 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 5: it for anybody. 106 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: Going forwards to nineteen ninety nine. That trial went on 107 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: for about three months. Like you say, it would have 108 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: been quite hard to find a jury who didn't know 109 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: anything about this case. 110 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: Hey, that's right, and that's one of the reasons why 111 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: it was shifted. 112 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 4: Dwellington and also Chelsea you could remember in those days, 113 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 4: there was no social media that's on Facebook, There was 114 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: barely cell phones. Everyone consumed mainstream media through television and newspapers. 115 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 4: News websites were just sort of starting, and there was 116 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 4: so much information about this case. It took eighteen months 117 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 4: to get to trial that already been what's called a 118 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 4: deposition's hearing and Blenheim and we don't do that anymore, 119 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 4: but that's basically a dry run of the key bits 120 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 4: of the evidence for a judge to decide if there's 121 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 4: enough evidence to stand trial. So everyone had already heard 122 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 4: most of the evidence against Scott Watson by that case, 123 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 4: not all of it, and there were certainly a lot 124 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 4: of dramatic revelations at the trial. But the whole country 125 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 4: was talking about this like it sounds not very nice 126 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 4: to say, but this case was New Zealand's ij Simpson case. 127 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 4: Just this case that just captivated the country for eighteen months. 128 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 3: For a lot of reasons too, because of police procedure 129 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 3: or their lack of it, or their lack of transparency 130 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: in terms of evidence, in terms of using his photographs 131 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: and showing witnesses different photographs of him looking into several 132 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: who looked nothing like that on the night. Even drawings 133 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 3: m of the drawing of them looking scruffy. So people 134 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 3: kind of already made up their minds in a way, 135 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: I feel. 136 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: And early on as well, Ben and Olivia's parents were 137 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: quite vocal in the media. Hey, how do you think 138 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: that helped or perhaps hindered the case in those early 139 00:06:58,600 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: days because now they don't speak it. 140 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 3: No, Well, I think Gerald Hope was very vocal, and 141 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: he obviously and then you know, later became the mayor 142 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: of Blenham, But also because they were very credible. I 143 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: think people were captured by these families. The Smart family 144 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: were less vocal, but Gerald certainly, he was pretty much 145 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 3: a spokesperson for both families. And you're right, like I 146 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: think like nowadays you would very really subdue to say 147 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 3: anyway to talk before a trial, but he was very 148 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: vocal from the out. 149 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: Yet the case has become pretty notorious as one of 150 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: New Zealand's most controversial cases. Was there that feeling during 151 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: the trial that this was going to be quite contentious? 152 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: There were certainly some big surprises at the trial. The 153 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 4: whole country was watching, so I was covering it for 154 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: the Dominion newspaper, and we set aside whole pages with 155 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 4: no ads for all of the evidence every day, and 156 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 4: I was there for every day of three months. The 157 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 4: interest was enormous. It just led TV news every night. 158 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 4: People just couldn't get enough information. And I think, Chelsea, 159 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 4: you could feel the pressure. You could feel the pressure 160 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 4: on everyone, the jury, the judged, the lawyers. And this 161 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 4: might sound really silly, the media, we felt it too. 162 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 4: Because your bylines on the story, people realize who you are, 163 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 4: and every party or social interaction you have they're talking 164 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 4: about this case. That's what I make the OJ comparison. 165 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 4: It just captivated the whole country, and I think Carra 166 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 4: is right. People had largely made up their mind about 167 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 4: Scott Watson, and in terms of the justice system, because 168 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 4: it's twenty five years and we're still talking about this, 169 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 4: and I look at these things and I think, what 170 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 4: if he didn't do it? What if he's been in 171 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 4: prison for all this time. I don't lose any sleep 172 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 4: about the verdict, and I haven't followed really closely the 173 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 4: appeal stuff, but what I would say is that Scott 174 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 4: Watson had two excellent defense lawyers for his trial, Bruce Davidson, 175 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 4: who's now judged and Mike and Tanovic they really believed 176 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 4: in his innocence. They fought tooth and nail, and a 177 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: lot of what the Appeals is now considering is the 178 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 4: great work that they did at trial, probing witnesses, finding 179 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 4: out about problems with evidence that the Appeal as stands 180 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 4: on the shoulders of the work those two did at 181 00:08:58,520 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 4: the trial. 182 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty well with the stafablished that a lot 183 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: of this evidence in the case is circumstantial. 184 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: Hey, DNA was brand new in ninety nine. 185 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 4: You know, it's very hard because there was so much 186 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 4: publicity of this before I got control and everything that's 187 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 4: happening now be really clear. 188 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: This was a big deal in nineteen ninety nine. This 189 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: was contentious. 190 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 4: Then the ESR evidence about supposedly Olivia's hears on the 191 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 4: blanket on Scott Watson's boat, that was absolutely damning at 192 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: the time because there was no evidence that they'd met, 193 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 4: unless you believe he was in the water taxi and 194 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: offered for bedding Olivia to sleep on their boat, but 195 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 4: there was no sightings of them together. So for a 196 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: jury and for the public, how do hears get on 197 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 4: someone's boat of someone you've never met and there was 198 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 4: all this evidence about secondary transfer and you're at a 199 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 4: party and you bump into someone and here goes on you, 200 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: and they bump into someone else and here goes on 201 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 4: someone else. Quite far fetched but powerful evidence, right, And 202 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 4: this is what the appeal is about now, is Yeah, 203 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 4: there were serious problems with the way that evidence was 204 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 4: tested and collected. That happened at the time that Essi 205 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 4: Hunters got absolutely grilled on the stand eras were made 206 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 4: not to mention. 207 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 3: What is it called the hatch. There was scratches on 208 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: my hat on his boat. Now that was proven that 209 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: was false. And I've actually been on the blade twice. 210 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 3: Not long after the trial ended and the verdict came up, 211 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 3: we interviewed Watson's family, his mother Bev and dad Chris, 212 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: and we actually went sailing on the blade and we 213 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 3: went back again sailing, you know, for the twenty year podcast. 214 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 3: And it was quite chilling actually being on the blade 215 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 3: because it was so tiny. It's really noisy, and all 216 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: I could think about was at the time was like, 217 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 3: oh my god, imagine if they were there, you know, 218 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 3: they could look out, but no one could look in. 219 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: And if they were actually in there, trapped in there. 220 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: I just thought, God, how terrifying those Bool kids must 221 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 3: have felt. 222 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,599 Speaker 4: So at the trial that was very powerful evidence that 223 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 4: the crown case was that Olivia was fighting for her 224 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: life to get out of the boat. And that's powerful evidence, 225 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 4: and when it's presented in the context of Olivia's hairs 226 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 4: were on the blanket on the boat. And then a 227 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 4: lot was made of Scott Watson's behavior after the kids 228 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 4: went missing. The entire boat had been washed down, cassette 229 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 4: tapes had been wiped well, and made a big deal 230 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 4: of that. The defense explained nearly all of that there'd 231 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 4: been water on board, rough sailing crossing cooks straight. That's 232 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 4: why things have been cleaned, because saltwater gets in the 233 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 4: damaged things. Much was made of Scott Watson painting his 234 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 4: boat in the following days. He ordered the paint weeks earlier, 235 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 4: so it all looked sinister. And they talk in criminal 236 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 4: trials about each piece of evidence to strand, and the 237 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 4: strand builds a rope. 238 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: That's the way judges explained it. 239 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 4: There were a lot of strands that knotted together and 240 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 4: made quite a strong rope. But the jury were made 241 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 4: to ask some quite big leaps of faith in the 242 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 4: crown case. 243 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: What do you think swayed the jury in the end. 244 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 4: What I learned from this trial, Chelsea, was the pressure 245 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 4: on juries to come up with verdicts as enormous. What 246 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 4: swayed the jury the his the two prison witnesses who 247 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 4: claimed that Scott Watson confessed to them that was a 248 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: truly horrific day. And what the jury didn't know was 249 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: both of those guys had to come and give evidence 250 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 4: in front of the judge with no jury present, because 251 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 4: the judge had to make a rolling on whether what 252 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 4: they were going to say would be admissible. So we 253 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 4: were in court for that, the jury weren't, so we 254 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 4: actually saw two runs of that evidence that was very powerful. 255 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 4: The other thing, too, is Scott Watson is guilty of 256 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 4: being a drunken asshole that night and heading on anyone, 257 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 4: particularly blondes. 258 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: He was very badly behaved and a lot of people remembered. 259 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 4: He made one horrific comment to a young girl and 260 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 4: she gave evidence and they were talking and she explained 261 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 4: that I think a relative had cancer and Watson stead 262 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 4: of had a crack at her and she rejected him, 263 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 4: and he just looked at her and said I hope 264 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 4: your mother dies of cancer. 265 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: And the jury gasped in the public. 266 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 4: Gallery gust he's a very introverted, hard to read kind 267 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 4: of guy. 268 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: And like I say, the strands just kept building. 269 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: Well, the fact that matter is you can be an asshole, 270 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: but that doesn't make you a murderer. 271 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: Correct, that was real? Was that a real issue here? 272 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 3: Well, because he was a dodgy character by nature, and 273 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: I think and also just his previous convictions, which were, 274 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 3: as Oscar said, you know, forty eight convictions, so already 275 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 3: in the public's mind. He was guilty in my opinion 276 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: because his parents weren't like the Hopes and Smarts. They 277 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: weren't middle class people. They're working class people. His father 278 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 3: was a boat builder, his mother worked at the pub 279 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 3: behind the Bard. Kind of when you build that picture 280 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: of Scott Watson and the fact that Borstal all you 281 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 3: know his anti social behavior, you know you are building 282 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 3: a picture. The one thing we haven't talked about to 283 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 3: Oscar is Guy Wallace, you know, because he was a 284 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 3: crucial witness to the connection and then he changed his mind. 285 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: And when we interviewed him, what four years ago, he 286 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 3: regrets that he feels very guilty sadly he's no longer 287 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: with us. But there was a lot of pressure I 288 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: think the police placed, in my personal opinion, police placed 289 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 3: a lot of pressure on people and witnesses. 290 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. And when you talk about pressure, so many lives 291 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 4: have been damaged or destroyed by this case, and not 292 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 4: just Ben and not just Olivia. But the trial opened 293 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 4: with evidence from Ben and Liver's parents, and it was 294 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 4: just horrific because it was they were fun, loving and 295 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 4: what were they doing and it was one of their 296 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 4: first holidays away with their friends. 297 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: Instead of their parents, And it was very powerful from 298 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: the crowd. 299 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: It really created these wonderful, well behaved, achieving young people 300 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 4: who would never do anything silly. And it was hard 301 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 4: to watch, was hard to be in court. They were 302 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 4: just nice kids. And there was thousands of nice kids 303 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 4: at that party that night. It was a pretty out 304 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 4: of control party. It was a very powerful way to 305 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: open the case. And when I say, you know, other 306 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 4: lives damaged, Guy Wallace life never recovered from this. In 307 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 4: the guilt that he feels about being the person who, 308 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: you know, dropping these kids off at this mystery person's ketch. 309 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 4: You know, not everyone's alive in this case, anymore. And 310 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 4: what I would say about the Hopes and the Smarts, 311 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 4: they were lovely people. Grief was just etched on their 312 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 4: face at the trial, you could see it. And they 313 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 4: sat there in the front row every day and listened 314 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 4: to everything, and sometimes you'd hear the sobs and that 315 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 4: would be Olivia's mum or Ben's mum. That they were 316 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 4: lovely people. And to be fair to Chris Watson, Scott's father, 317 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 4: he's a really nice guy too, and he is quite 318 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 4: convinced his son didn't do it. And at the trial 319 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 4: you'd have these people coming and going in the media gathering, 320 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 4: and Scott Watson's dad stood there every day like a 321 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 4: prior outside the court during the breaks. No one went 322 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 4: up to, no one want to talk to him. He'd 323 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 4: roll a ciggi and just all the eyes boring on him. 324 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: And he's been really unwell. The grief from this case 325 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 4: and the tragedy and the pressure has taken a much 326 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 4: bigger toll than two young people. 327 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 6: And I don't believe that he has it in them 328 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 6: to do that. 329 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 7: But I'm not going to go down the track of 330 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 7: being the emotional parent that's going to back his son 331 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 7: no matter. 332 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 3: What I have enormous admiration for Chris. I've known Chris 333 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: all those years. I've kept in touch with him all 334 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: these years. His wife, when I first approached her because 335 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: part of my job was to tie up people for 336 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 3: you know, interviews, afterwards, spat at me, and then I 337 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: kind of befriended her because back in those days the 338 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 3: us to smoke cigarette. So I used to stand outside 339 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: with her and with Chris, and then eventually we built 340 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: up a report. But I cannot ever commend anyone more 341 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 3: or actually has admiration for a father who has so 342 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 3: much love for a son and such belief that his 343 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 3: son is innocent. His whole life has been dedicated that 344 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: you know, And as Oscar says, you know, Bev, she 345 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: died of cancer a few years ago, never seeing justice 346 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: for her son that she believed, of course he was innocent. 347 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: But also you know, for poor Mary Smart because her 348 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: husband John died and Mary Smart bumps into Chris Watson 349 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 3: pretty much once sweet because they live impact in really 350 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: close to each other. In fact, it's a really chilling 351 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: reminder because Chris has the blade, Scott Sloop and the harbor, 352 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: and Mary Smart lives right above the harbor and the 353 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: blade is a constant reminder of her son. 354 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: And just finally we're still talking about it nearly twenty 355 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: five years later. Kara, you've done a podcast, The Murder 356 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: and the Sounds. Why do you think this case is 357 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: still sparking this debate after all this time. 358 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: Because there are two people missing, nobody's have ever been recovered, 359 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 3: No one really knows what happened, you know, people have died, 360 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 3: are older memories fade, but it's just I guess for me, 361 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: those lasting impressions of those two young kids with the 362 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 3: whole lives ahead of them just taken. I can still 363 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: see that photograph that were used every night on the news, 364 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 3: you know, on television, newspapers, the two of them together, 365 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: Olivia and Ben, and you think, nah, they would be 366 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 3: were in their forties. They should by rights be parents 367 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: for their own children, you know, sending them off to 368 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: a New Year's Eve party. 369 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 4: And we should acknowledge this is too long for the 370 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: justice system to do its thing. And this partly reflects 371 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 4: how Scott Watson is just going to keep fighting and 372 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: fighting fighting, and you have to respect that. But this 373 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 4: should have been resolved either way by now. It's been 374 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 4: too course been to the Privy Council and I think 375 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 4: the other issue here is that our parole system can't 376 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 4: handle people who refuse to admit they did it. So 377 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 4: Scott Watson was sentenced to a minimum non parole period 378 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 4: of seventeen years. 379 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: He could have potentially been released eight years ago. 380 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 4: So if the judge considered that that's what the punishment 381 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 4: should be for this crime, he's arguably done more than that. 382 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 4: The reasons why no one liked him on the night 383 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 4: are the reasons why he's not getting parole. He's got 384 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 4: some issues and I just think, if you're in prison 385 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 4: for this long and you didn't do it, wouldn't it 386 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 4: drive you crazy? And one thing for me, Chelsea about 387 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 4: Scott is how we reacted when the jury came back 388 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 4: and said guilty. 389 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: And for me, it's. 390 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 4: The most single terrible memory of the trial was he 391 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 4: just looked over at them and he just said, you're wrong, 392 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 4: really cocky, really arrogant. And there was a lot of 393 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 4: discussion right outside court after it because it was like, well, 394 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 4: if I didn't do it, I'd be screaming buddy murder, 395 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 4: or I'd be crying, or I'd be angry. But it 396 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 4: was cold, cold hearted that didn't. 397 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: Do many favors. 398 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 4: But also if you don't admit that you did it, 399 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 4: how can you get parole. So other countries have laws 400 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 4: now where if you say with the body is you 401 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 4: get an automatic sentence discount. And I think for ben 402 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 4: Olivia's parents, so much of it was not really knowing 403 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: the final moments, not knowing where they are, not getting 404 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 4: bodies back. What we talk about these days is closure, 405 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 4: which I don't think was a thing twenty five years ago, 406 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: but we understand the basic concept. So why is it 407 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 4: still in the news. Well, because it was massively controversial 408 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 4: at the time. The Crown did a closing that invited 409 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 4: the jury to ignore parts of the narrative that didn't work, 410 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: never explaining how he got back to Shure the second 411 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 4: time to be in the water taxi had been a 412 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 4: living It was massively controversial then and it's a sense 413 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 4: of fascination now. 414 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Karen Oscar and you can listen 415 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: to Murdering the Sound on the Chasing Ghosts podcast feed 416 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. Two key pieces of evidence 417 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: will be focused on during this appeal process. As at 418 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: Harold's senior reporter David Fisher has been following this case 419 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: for much of the last twenty five years. He joins 420 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 2: us now to discuss what is being brought to the 421 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: table for the first time in the way of evidence. David, 422 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: the piece of evidence that led to Watson's appeal revolves 423 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: around the DNA evidence from two hairs found on the boat. Hey, 424 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: what can you tell us about that? 425 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 6: So the hair evidence was really interesting for a number 426 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 6: of reasons. One of those reasons was that police searched 427 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 6: Blade Scott Watson's boat from top to tail, and they 428 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 6: found about four hundred hairs. None of those were hairs 429 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 6: that matched up with Ben Smart or Olivia Hope. Then 430 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 6: they went back and they searched the yacht again and 431 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 6: on this occasion they found two hairs that matched up 432 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 6: with Olivia Hope. The difficulty is is that those hairs 433 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 6: were identified on the same day that Olivia Hope's hair 434 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 6: brush was present in the lab where the hair samples 435 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 6: were being studied. And then to further complicate this along 436 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 6: the way, there was one centimeter long slit that was 437 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 6: found in the evidence bag that the hair obtained from 438 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 6: Blade was being kept in. And so then there was 439 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 6: this question, well, could it have been contaminated, could the 440 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 6: hair from one have fallen into the other bag, or 441 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 6: for that matter, did the hair come from the hair 442 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 6: brush and somehow make its way into the other bag. 443 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 6: So this has been a point of contention for quite 444 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 6: some time, right down to whether or not the scientist 445 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 6: that was doing the examination changed from one lab coat 446 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 6: to another lab coat when working from one sample to 447 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 6: another sample. It's been certainly for quite some time never 448 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 6: really found as much traction as Watson supporters wanted it 449 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 6: to until this Court of Appeal hearing a couple of 450 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 6: years ago. 451 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: So for those who may not know, you get a 452 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: few chances at appeal, but then you cut off. Then 453 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: you have to go for what's called a royal prerogative 454 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 2: of mercy, and in order to do that you do 455 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: need new evidence. Are the hairs a part of why 456 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,719 Speaker 2: Watson was granted a royal prerogative of mercy? 457 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 6: The case agains Scott Watson has been challenged in a 458 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 6: multitude of different ways. So yes, there were the Court 459 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 6: of Appeal hearings, There was an IPCA inquiry, there was 460 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 6: his initial denial of a rule progative of mercy claim 461 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 6: in twenty thirteen, and then again another one in twenty seventeen. 462 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 6: I think that was accepted. The hiss that was a 463 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 6: part of it. But back when the original case happened, 464 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 6: when Paul Davison QC was summing up the case on 465 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 6: behalf of the prosecution, he had said, this case is 466 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 6: a jigsaw made of many different pieces, sort of a 467 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 6: similar analogy to circumstantial cases being talked about as being 468 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 6: many strands of a rope. And so the hears were 469 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 6: always one of those jigsaw puzzle pieces. There were a 470 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 6: lot of pieces that went into that puzzle, and the 471 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 6: argument has kind of been how many pieces of the 472 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 6: puzzle do you need to knock out before the picture 473 00:22:58,720 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 6: makes no sense. 474 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: The Court of Appeal later ruled that Watson's team can 475 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 2: also argue the so called blink photo that was used 476 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 2: to identify him. Why has that being so controversial? 477 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 6: So the IPCA in quiry in twenty ten that actually 478 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 6: identified the blink photograph as being problematic, I think was 479 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 6: the way that they praised it. They said it was 480 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 6: highly undesirable the way that police went about showing photomontages 481 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 6: to people, and that it fell well short of best practice. However, 482 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 6: it was never framed in such a way as to 483 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 6: be the one single piece of evidence that was going 484 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 6: to either convict Watson or get him off the hook. 485 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 6: But with the Blink photograph, the difficulty here was that 486 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 6: police were given a description of a man who was 487 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 6: behaving in an odd fashion at Pernolodge that night, who 488 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 6: had hooded eyes, and this was quite a distinctive physical characteristic. 489 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 6: Scott Watson, in this photograph called the Blink photograph, appeared 490 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 6: to have hooded eyes, but that's because he was blinking 491 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 6: with the photograph was taken. When you look at the 492 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 6: other photographs of their they're not hooded eyes. And so 493 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 6: the photograph of Watson blinking with these hooded eyes was 494 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 6: seen as highly prejudicial by supporters of Watson, who said 495 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 6: that what in right it should have been allowed, as 496 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 6: I said back that up fell well should of best practice? 497 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 6: They said, highly undesirable. At what the Court of Appeal 498 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 6: has said, Well, if that's enough to give a miscarriage 499 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 6: of justice, that's for the Court of Appeal to decide 500 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 6: on the new hearing, and they gave a green light 501 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 6: for Watson to advance that. 502 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 8: Nicholas Chisnel became Scott Watson's lead counsel last year. 503 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 7: Is a case that invokes strong emotions and people, both 504 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 7: those who supports Scott and also those who feel that 505 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 7: he's to be criticized for wanting to have his stay 506 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 7: in court again. 507 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 8: Chisnel says, who's spoken to Scott Watson, who is excited 508 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 8: about the developments, although it is tempered by the fact 509 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 8: it's taken Authorisy's just over two decades to review his case. 510 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: But David Wilders isn't a part of the appeal. I 511 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 2: understand you once tested the Crown case involving Watson's boat, 512 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: the Blade. 513 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 6: I got really interested in this pieces of a puzzle 514 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 6: thing because there were pieces that you could look at 515 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 6: and knock out. And one of the things that have 516 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 6: been talked about was the Crown's allegation that Watson had 517 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 6: dropped the body to the middle of the cook straight 518 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 6: and then there was also evidence that was put forward 519 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 6: in the trial that he was seen a period of 520 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 6: time later back in Mulbra sounds at somebody's house or 521 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 6: tied up in a bay. The thing that captivated me 522 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 6: about this I didn't realize and yachts No, is that 523 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 6: there's actually scientific equation that says how fast a boakud 524 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 6: go depending on his kell length. And when you got 525 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 6: a measuring tape out, you applied it to a map 526 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 6: and you measured the length of the blade's kill. You 527 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 6: could see that what's it going to happen? So Chris Watson, 528 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 6: Scott Watson's dad, he agreed to let me test this 529 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 6: out in the real world. So we took Blade out 530 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 6: to the middle of the cook straight to the place 531 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 6: where Blade was apparently cited, and we did it at 532 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 6: the same tide as occurred at that time. It was 533 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 6: a really carefully planned trip to try and match up 534 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 6: the environmental conditions as closely as possible, and then we 535 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 6: went hell for leather to this bay that Watson was 536 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 6: apparently cited. And there's no way that you can make 537 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 6: the journey. It just doesn't work. And it was fascinating 538 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 6: to me because when Paul Davison summed up the case, 539 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 6: and it was one heck of a summing up. It 540 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 6: was thirty thousand words of closing argument. Five percent of 541 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 6: that closing argument was about the bodies being done, and 542 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 6: from the work that I did, it seemed impossible that 543 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 6: that could have. 544 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: Happened and what's made you so interested in this case 545 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: over the years, David, those pieces are the puzzle and 546 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 2: seeing how many you can knock out. 547 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 6: I think the thing about the Scott Watson case, well, 548 00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 6: one thing is that the bodies have been in Olivia, 549 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 6: we never found and the greatest evidence that exists as 550 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 6: to who their killer is is likely with those bodies. 551 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 6: So it then becomes a very circumstantial case. And there 552 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 6: were pieces of evidence put forward that police would argue, 553 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 6: we're not circumstantial. The hairs on the boat that's under question, 554 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 6: I just testimony. Also somewhat under The main person that 555 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 6: identified the Blink photograph were canted and died not so 556 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 6: long ago, saying that he didn't believe that Scott Watson 557 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 6: was the person that he identified in that photograph. I 558 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 6: think the thing for me that's really interesting about the 559 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 6: case is so many unanswered questions, and it came during 560 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 6: a time when we were as a public somewhat accustomed 561 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 6: to questions coming from old cases. There was the murders 562 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 6: of the Swedish jurists of the Crimnal for which David 563 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 6: Tommyhaty was convicted. We go all the way back to 564 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 6: the Crew murders and that seat of doubt that was 565 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 6: planted when police planted the Cartridge case. That sort of 566 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 6: raised a question over the way that police would do 567 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 6: that job at the time and in the decades going forward, 568 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 6: Watson case just became another one of those I think 569 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 6: one of the things that was really captivating about the case, 570 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 6: and I somewhat missed this because I was out of 571 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 6: the country for quite a number of years around the 572 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 6: time of the murders and the following trial, was that 573 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 6: they were kind of the perfect young summer couple. They 574 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 6: were really lovely looking kids that came from a really 575 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 6: nice home that were having a New Year's Eve of 576 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 6: the sort that you would hope would be the most 577 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 6: memorable of their lives, which it turned out to be 578 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 6: for all the wrong reasons. 579 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, David. For news from the Appeal 580 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: as it comes through, had to ensidherld dot co dot 581 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: z and for more on the Scott Watson case, including 582 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: his bids for parole, check out the links in our 583 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: show notes. That's it for this episode of the Front Page. 584 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 585 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: coverage at enzidherld dot co. Dot NZ. The Front Page 586 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Sills and sound engineer Patty Fox. 587 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio 588 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on 589 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: Monday for another look behind the headlines.