Speaker 1: Jyoda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 3: This week is Rape Awareness Week. In New Zealand.
Speaker 2: One in three women and one in eight men experience
Speaker 2: sexual violence.
Speaker 3: At some stage in their lifetime.
Speaker 2: Repeated surveys show that tens of thousands of New Zealanders
Speaker 2: are experiencing this type of assault every year. So what's
Speaker 2: being done to try and stop this violence? And are
Speaker 2: those victims who are speaking up getting the justice they deserve.
Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, we're joined by clinical psychologist
Speaker 2: and Help Executive director Catherine McPhillips to discuss this crisis.
Speaker 2: Probably more people than we think who experience sexual violence
Speaker 2: at some point in their lifetime. Right do you think
Speaker 2: people would be surprised to learn just how many that is?
Speaker 1: I mean some people wouldn't.
Speaker 4: Some wouldn't of course, So those who've experienced themselves they
Speaker 4: might be more aware of how common it is. Our
Speaker 4: best research in New Zealand at the moment suggests that
Speaker 4: it's around about one in three girls.
Speaker 1: And one and twelve boys.
Speaker 4: And that's just the start of it, of course, because
Speaker 4: people are also accused or you know, sexual violence also
Speaker 4: occurs when adults are the victims of that, so it
Speaker 4: is very common, and so you know, those who experienced
Speaker 4: it may understand how common it is, whereas those.
Speaker 1: Who haven't may not.
Speaker 2: And there's just so much stigma about speaking out about it.
Speaker 3: But why is it so.
Speaker 2: Important to have open discussions about this? And do you
Speaker 2: think that that stigma is slowly but surely being put
Speaker 2: by the wayside.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, there is a lot of stigma
Speaker 4: because you know, those kind of ancient ideas or I
Speaker 4: say ancient because you know they should be ancient, But
Speaker 4: that idea is that it was up to a woman
Speaker 4: always to stop a man's sexual advances to her, for
Speaker 4: her to be pure or untainted or something. You know,
Speaker 4: there was some kind of virtue in that scene for
Speaker 4: a woman, and women have been blamed when they weren't
Speaker 4: able to stop those advances. So I think that that's
Speaker 4: where that stigma and shame kind of comes from historically,
Speaker 4: and so we really need to talk about it because
Speaker 4: we have to shift that stigma and shame to the
Speaker 4: person who, you know, the person who's causing hearm, not
Speaker 4: to the victim of that harm. And so we need
Speaker 4: to have these conversations so that people who are victimized
Speaker 4: can understand that they're not at fault and that the
Speaker 4: people supporting them, so their families, partners, you know, their
Speaker 4: community around them, also get to understand that it's not
Speaker 4: appropriate to blame the victim for this, that we actually
Speaker 4: need to be talking about how we stop accepting the
Speaker 4: way that in particular, but you know, also men and
Speaker 4: certainly rainbow groups are kind of sexualized. We need to
Speaker 4: be holding those who cause harm to account.
Speaker 2: And you're quite right those ancient ideas of sexual violence.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the old adage what were you wearing?
Speaker 2: What was she wearing?
Speaker 3: Kind of thing.
Speaker 2: I remember seeing an amazing exhibition of people who had
Speaker 2: submitted their clothes of what they actually were wearing, and
Speaker 2: it was this incredible display of you know, the track
Speaker 2: pants and mini skirts and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: It's kind of just getting rid of.
Speaker 2: Those ideas and those ideals, totally getting rid of the
Speaker 2: idea that there's some way in which people ask for
Speaker 2: this to be done to them, and shifting it back
Speaker 2: to actually is the responsibility of the person initiating that
Speaker 2: behavior to not do it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, the very sad.
Speaker 1: Sorry.
Speaker 5: That really struck me was that fifteen percent of the
Speaker 5: victims of sexual violence thought it was a crime. The
Speaker 5: other eighty five percent of the victims of sexual violence
Speaker 5: didn't believe that what had happened to them was a crime.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it stops in your tracks, doesn't it. And just
Speaker 6: section six reporting to the police, based on non reporting estimates,
Speaker 6: sexual offenses, ninety four percent was significantly more likely to
Speaker 6: go unreported. So there are a whole lot of victims
Speaker 6: out there who were just sitting with it.
Speaker 2: I've found a number of stats that show that sexual
Speaker 2: assault happens to a lot of New Zealanders every year.
Speaker 2: One stat from help showed that between November twenty twenty
Speaker 2: and November twenty twenty one, around seventy eight thousand New
Speaker 2: Zealanders experienced sexual assault.
Speaker 3: Have we seen that figure improve?
Speaker 7: It all?
Speaker 1: There's been some improvement.
Speaker 4: You know, all of this research is retrospective and then
Speaker 4: we kind of project that to go, well, this is
Speaker 4: what might be happening now or what might happen in
Speaker 4: the future. And so the retrospect to research with young
Speaker 4: people tells us that we have got better with boys,
Speaker 4: so there is less sexual abuse of boys. That's what
Speaker 4: the research indicates, and I think we need to really
Speaker 4: celebrate that because that you know, that's great, but we
Speaker 4: also need to be spreading that out and seeing less
Speaker 4: to girls and less to adults as.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and young people.
Speaker 4: Young people are also targeted for sexual ones and so yes,
Speaker 4: yes we've got some improvement, but we need to really
Speaker 4: keep going and keep going as strong as we can to.
Speaker 1: Stop this happening.
Speaker 2: And speaking of those ages, you might have seen the
Speaker 2: story from April about a German backpacker who was allegedly
Speaker 2: gang raped in Central Auckland on New Year's Day. Three
Speaker 2: men have been charged over that, and the alleged perpetrators
Speaker 2: are aged between nineteen and twenty one. Do you see
Speaker 2: any statistics around the ages of those who potentially do
Speaker 2: these kind of crimes.
Speaker 4: It's kind of variable really with the ages. There is
Speaker 4: certainly some youth offending which occurs against children, which you know,
Speaker 4: doesn't seem to necessarily persist into the young person's adulthood.
Speaker 4: In terms of sexual violence against young people, certainly we
Speaker 4: see that the vulnerability or the targeting of young people
Speaker 4: is in that kind of sixteen to twenty four year
Speaker 4: old age group where they're kind of out and about,
Speaker 4: and so you know, there is a similarity. I think
Speaker 4: when we see the ages of those who are who
Speaker 4: are offending, it's the people that they're out and about
Speaker 4: with or around, and so you know, that doesn't say
Speaker 4: that it's just you know, young people in that early
Speaker 4: twenties age at all. It goes on up, but certainly
Speaker 4: it's who has access to you, really is who does
Speaker 4: it to you, and so who is around.
Speaker 1: You at those times.
Speaker 2: I mentioned in our intro that men are impacted by
Speaker 2: sexual assault as well, and I guess I bring that
Speaker 2: up because it's really important to recognize that, isn't there
Speaker 2: because there is more stigma around men being the victims
Speaker 2: of this sort of crime.
Speaker 3: Would you say that that's correct.
Speaker 4: I think there's more stigma in some ways but not
Speaker 4: in others. But absolutely yes, we must acknowledge and understand
Speaker 4: the sexual offending that happens against men. It's a very
Speaker 4: traumatizing experience for men as well, and so we certainly
Speaker 4: need to be understanding that and attending to that.
Speaker 1: Now prevention efforts as well.
Speaker 2: One of the biggest issues, it seems that stops people
Speaker 2: coming forward with sexual assault allegations. Is that judicial process
Speaker 2: that can be quite traumatic, you know, having to relive
Speaker 2: your experience to police, to lawyers, to a courtroom, facing
Speaker 2: cross examination, things like that. What changes have you seen
Speaker 2: in recent years to try and improve that process for victims.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's been quite a few changes. So there was
Speaker 4: pilot courts in Auckland and Fugaday which involved training court staff,
Speaker 4: training judges about the traumatization of victims and how to
Speaker 4: work with them in ways which would not or would
Speaker 4: retraumatize them less. So judges introducing themselves before the trial,
Speaker 4: letting victims know that, you know, it was okay to
Speaker 4: take a break if they need it. You know, that
Speaker 4: kind of thing has been really helpful. We've had prosecution
Speaker 4: guidelines in place of sexual violence for a few years now,
Speaker 4: so prosecutors are more aware about again how to not
Speaker 4: step into that retraumatizing victims. So that's been really helpful.
Speaker 4: Lots of changes in police to interview people in ways
Speaker 4: which are again less traumatizing, so asking people what happened
Speaker 4: and then what happened and so helping the person to
Speaker 4: sequence the events without suggestions from them if you like.
Speaker 4: So that's you know, that helps a person's brain when
Speaker 4: it's when the person is traumatized. So we've had specialist
Speaker 4: adult sexual assault teams and police, so specialist people doing
Speaker 4: the interviews as well as the investigations. So there has
Speaker 4: been a lot of change, but we nowhere near where
Speaker 4: we need to be yet.
Speaker 3: What changes would you like to see?
Speaker 1: So all sorts of things.
Speaker 4: I mean, we'd like to change the fact finder in
Speaker 4: the court to a judge and who trained jurists. Basically,
Speaker 4: what happens now is that defense lawyers do their job
Speaker 4: often by undermining the credibility of a victim and putting
Speaker 4: it back on them, and.
Speaker 1: That's just not helpful.
Speaker 4: So we would rather have judges asking the questions necessary
Speaker 4: and defense lawyers only asking those questions which were not
Speaker 4: covered by the judge. So we'd like to see that change.
Speaker 4: We'd like to see treatment courts, So these were explored
Speaker 4: by the Law Commissions some years ago, where a person could,
Speaker 4: if they paid guilty, could be assessed for treatment as
Speaker 4: different to you know, an automatic assumption of a prison sentence.
Speaker 4: The reason for this is that you know, many victims
Speaker 4: come to us and say that they don't want the
Speaker 4: person you know, hugely punished What they really want is
Speaker 4: for them to never do it to anyone else again.
Speaker 4: And so not everybody you know, are going to gain
Speaker 4: from treatment, but many people can.
Speaker 1: So we would like to see that change.
Speaker 4: We think that that would bring more people to make
Speaker 4: a complaint if they knew that the outcome that they
Speaker 4: want was possible through the judicial system.
Speaker 2: And other changes happening in regards to giving evidence in
Speaker 2: court via AVL or perhaps in another room.
Speaker 1: Yes, so there are changes.
Speaker 4: Not all courts have the facilities across the country, but yes,
Speaker 4: an expect you know that it should be possible to
Speaker 4: give evidence by audiovisual link into the court.
Speaker 1: So we've previously had that for children and it's been.
Speaker 4: Possible under our law for quite some time, but there's
Speaker 4: a shift towards that being more accepted as part of
Speaker 4: the process.
Speaker 3: Everyone was pretty outraged.
Speaker 2: I think it's all that's been see on Instagram and
Speaker 2: like social media this week.
Speaker 3: We're fighting for justice and our rights.
Speaker 7: Any of my girl Vlope brind if they went for
Speaker 7: any of that shit, that guy wouldn't be a nine
Speaker 7: month He'll be six free. Down here to protest the
Speaker 7: sentence of Jaden Meyer, who raped and sexually assaulted five
Speaker 7: teenagers when he was sixteen. He'll spends nine months on
Speaker 7: home detention. A sentence, this advocate says, isn't enough.
Speaker 3: I was absolutely outraged. It makes absolutely no sense.
Speaker 2: It's pretty much telling the younger generation that it's okay
Speaker 2: to do this, and you're going to get away with
Speaker 2: a slap on the hand, Like, come on, Even when
Speaker 2: you do go through the process, there's no guarantee of
Speaker 2: what sort of punishment perpetrators will receive.
Speaker 3: You mentioned that a little bit before.
Speaker 2: How frustrated do you get when you see a judge's comments,
Speaker 2: or maybe not even a judge's comments, a lawyer's comments
Speaker 2: or comments from the courtroom that when putting down a sentence,
Speaker 2: you hear the phrase it would ruin their future prospects.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's very frustrating because they should have thought of
Speaker 4: it before they took the action. Regardless of their future prospects,
Speaker 4: they have already harmed the person's future prospects because, you know,
Speaker 4: sex assault isn't it a one night thing. You know,
Speaker 4: for many people, it's something that they carry through their
Speaker 4: lives for a very long time, if not forever. Our
Speaker 4: nervous systems don't really fully recover from being really harmed,
Speaker 4: and you know, it can lead if you develop PTSD
Speaker 4: from the assault, it can lead to you being more
Speaker 4: likely to develop PTSD through your lifetime. Some people, you know,
Speaker 4: respond by isolating themselves and not going out. And you know,
Speaker 4: the more that you withdraw from the life and the
Speaker 4: world and people, you know, the much narrower your whole
Speaker 4: life is as you go forward. Other people might have
Speaker 4: recurring anxiety or depression you know, through their lives. So
Speaker 4: when you do this to somebody else, you alter the
Speaker 4: trajectory of their life. So actually, if the trajectory of
Speaker 4: your life is also altered, well that sounds like justice.
Speaker 2: The government's currently working on to our DAKUDA, a twenty
Speaker 2: five year National Strategy for the Prevention of Family and
Speaker 2: Sexual violence.
Speaker 3: Are you happy with how this is progressing.
Speaker 4: Well, it's fantastic that there is a national strategy, and
Speaker 4: it's fantastic that this government continued that strategy and kept
Speaker 4: investing in that strategy. Of course, we like to see
Speaker 4: everything move faster than it is, because twenty five years
Speaker 4: is really not very long at all in terms of
Speaker 4: you know, turning the tide on this kind of violence.
Speaker 4: The strategy is for sexual violence and for what we
Speaker 4: call family violence, and so certainly, you know, resources are
Speaker 4: spread across those which slows things down. But I think
Speaker 4: this is say, compared to Australia, which has a child
Speaker 4: sexual abuse strategy just you know, on its own, we
Speaker 4: would like to see more happening faster, but we're certainly
Speaker 4: grateful for the work that is happening in that strategy.
Speaker 4: So things like training are strate to try workers. You know,
Speaker 4: thousands of people are going to be trained over the
Speaker 4: next few years in terms of how to respond to
Speaker 4: people who disclose sexual violence.
Speaker 1: So that's a real win.
Speaker 2: And I read a statistic that I found actually quite startling,
Speaker 2: and you mentioned it in the beginning of our conversation.
Speaker 2: One in four New Zealand girls may be sexually abused
Speaker 2: before she turns sixteen, and around ninety percent of the
Speaker 2: abuse will be done by someone she knows. Now, I
Speaker 2: read this on the DREM section of the help website.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me a little bit about this offshoot?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, DEARIM is.
Speaker 4: A leadership program for young people who are interested in
Speaker 4: ending sexual violence. So we work with them to look
Speaker 4: at you know, to help them understand the ways they
Speaker 4: can do that.
Speaker 1: They get to do.
Speaker 4: Projects which are their projects of how they would like
Speaker 4: to do this. So one young woman did a podcast,
Speaker 4: another young woman has led some actions or a petition
Speaker 4: on consent law reform. They go into the university and
Speaker 4: talk to counselors about what young people need in these situations.
Speaker 4: So you know, a variety of different actions every year,
Speaker 4: but it's kind of fostering their knowledge and their sense
Speaker 4: of how they can participate in making this change in
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 1: They also have very flourishing social media.
Speaker 4: So Instagram in particular, just spreading the messages really about
Speaker 4: what needs to change to end sexual violence.
Speaker 2: If there was one thing, Catherine, that you'd like any
Speaker 2: political party to introduce as a policy to tackle this
Speaker 2: issue in sexual violence and rape, what would it be.
Speaker 4: To be honest, The one that's dearest to my heart
Speaker 4: at the moment is the Justice Select Committee has looked
Speaker 4: at how we stop children on the stand being accused
Speaker 4: of having consented to sexual activity, and we're talking, you know,
Speaker 4: children as young as five or six years old, you know,
Speaker 4: being accused of that. So there is a bill looking
Speaker 4: at that. At the moment, the government doesn't have that
Speaker 4: in the stated plan to enact that bolt, to make
Speaker 4: that bill into law. That bill would stop any child
Speaker 4: under twelve being challenged about consent. But yeah, we'd really
Speaker 4: like to see that fast tracted in as soon as possible,
Speaker 4: because it's really quite an indictement on our society that
Speaker 4: we challenge six year olds about having consented to sexual
Speaker 4: things done to them by adults.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer.
Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
Speaker 2: behind the headlines.