WEBVTT - Sexual violence in NZ: What more can be done to help victims? 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Jyoda. 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.040 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.440 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.840 This week is Rape Awareness Week. In New Zealand. 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.680 One in three women and one in eight men experience 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:25.200 sexual violence. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.280 At some stage in their lifetime. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.800 Repeated surveys show that tens of thousands of New Zealanders 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:36.480 are experiencing this type of assault every year. So what's 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.559 being done to try and stop this violence? And are 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:44.000 those victims who are speaking up getting the justice they deserve. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.720 Today on the Front Page, we're joined by clinical psychologist 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:54.720 and Help Executive director Catherine McPhillips to discuss this crisis. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.480 Probably more people than we think who experience sexual violence 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.040 at some point in their lifetime. Right do you think 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:11.000 people would be surprised to learn just how many that is? 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:13.319 I mean some people wouldn't. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.000 Some wouldn't of course, So those who've experienced themselves they 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.640 might be more aware of how common it is. Our 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.959 best research in New Zealand at the moment suggests that 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.959 it's around about one in three girls. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.320 And one and twelve boys. 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.120 And that's just the start of it, of course, because 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.759 people are also accused or you know, sexual violence also 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.520 occurs when adults are the victims of that, so it 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.440 is very common, and so you know, those who experienced 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.120 it may understand how common it is, whereas those. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:42.959 Who haven't may not. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.520 And there's just so much stigma about speaking out about it. 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:48.440 But why is it so. 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.360 Important to have open discussions about this? And do you 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.520 think that that stigma is slowly but surely being put 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:55.600 by the wayside. 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.200 Yeah, I mean, look, there is a lot of stigma 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.320 because you know, those kind of ancient ideas or I 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.920 say ancient because you know they should be ancient, But 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:07.880 that idea is that it was up to a woman 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.200 always to stop a man's sexual advances to her, for 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.320 her to be pure or untainted or something. You know, 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.400 there was some kind of virtue in that scene for 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.560 a woman, and women have been blamed when they weren't 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:25.959 able to stop those advances. So I think that that's 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.320 where that stigma and shame kind of comes from historically, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.680 and so we really need to talk about it because 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.040 we have to shift that stigma and shame to the 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.640 person who, you know, the person who's causing hearm, not 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.639 to the victim of that harm. And so we need 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.760 to have these conversations so that people who are victimized 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.240 can understand that they're not at fault and that the 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.680 people supporting them, so their families, partners, you know, their 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.480 community around them, also get to understand that it's not 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.120 appropriate to blame the victim for this, that we actually 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:58.800 need to be talking about how we stop accepting the 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.440 way that in particular, but you know, also men and 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.400 certainly rainbow groups are kind of sexualized. We need to 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.440 be holding those who cause harm to account. 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.960 And you're quite right those ancient ideas of sexual violence. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.200 I mean, it's the old adage what were you wearing? 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:15.040 What was she wearing? 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:15.520 Kind of thing. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.560 I remember seeing an amazing exhibition of people who had 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.160 submitted their clothes of what they actually were wearing, and 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:26.360 it was this incredible display of you know, the track 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.880 pants and mini skirts and all this kind of stuff. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.000 It's kind of just getting rid of. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.040 Those ideas and those ideals, totally getting rid of the 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.160 idea that there's some way in which people ask for 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.040 this to be done to them, and shifting it back 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.040 to actually is the responsibility of the person initiating that 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:47.640 behavior to not do it? 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.440 Yeah, the very sad. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:52.880 Sorry. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.400 That really struck me was that fifteen percent of the 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.560 victims of sexual violence thought it was a crime. The 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.480 other eighty five percent of the victims of sexual violence 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.000 didn't believe that what had happened to them was a crime. 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:08.480 Yeah, it stops in your tracks, doesn't it. And just 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:13.080 section six reporting to the police, based on non reporting estimates, 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:17.719 sexual offenses, ninety four percent was significantly more likely to 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.440 go unreported. So there are a whole lot of victims 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:25.000 out there who were just sitting with it. 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.719 I've found a number of stats that show that sexual 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.719 assault happens to a lot of New Zealanders every year. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.640 One stat from help showed that between November twenty twenty 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.880 and November twenty twenty one, around seventy eight thousand New 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.320 Zealanders experienced sexual assault. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.400 Have we seen that figure improve? 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:48.800 It all? 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.760 There's been some improvement. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.040 You know, all of this research is retrospective and then 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.240 we kind of project that to go, well, this is 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.320 what might be happening now or what might happen in 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.200 the future. And so the retrospect to research with young 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.400 people tells us that we have got better with boys, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.160 so there is less sexual abuse of boys. That's what 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.720 the research indicates, and I think we need to really 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.680 celebrate that because that you know, that's great, but we 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.919 also need to be spreading that out and seeing less 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:18.920 to girls and less to adults as. 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.119 Well, you know, and young people. 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.320 Young people are also targeted for sexual ones and so yes, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.880 yes we've got some improvement, but we need to really 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.680 keep going and keep going as strong as we can to. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:30.560 Stop this happening. 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.800 And speaking of those ages, you might have seen the 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.560 story from April about a German backpacker who was allegedly 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.200 gang raped in Central Auckland on New Year's Day. Three 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.360 men have been charged over that, and the alleged perpetrators 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.960 are aged between nineteen and twenty one. Do you see 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.880 any statistics around the ages of those who potentially do 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.040 these kind of crimes. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.240 It's kind of variable really with the ages. There is 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:03.479 certainly some youth offending which occurs against children, which you know, 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:08.480 doesn't seem to necessarily persist into the young person's adulthood. 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.000 In terms of sexual violence against young people, certainly we 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.119 see that the vulnerability or the targeting of young people 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:17.960 is in that kind of sixteen to twenty four year 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.640 old age group where they're kind of out and about, 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.159 and so you know, there is a similarity. I think 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.560 when we see the ages of those who are who 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.680 are offending, it's the people that they're out and about 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.400 with or around, and so you know, that doesn't say 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.839 that it's just you know, young people in that early 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.520 twenties age at all. It goes on up, but certainly 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.440 it's who has access to you, really is who does 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.720 it to you, and so who is around. 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:43.920 You at those times. 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.720 I mentioned in our intro that men are impacted by 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:49.960 sexual assault as well, and I guess I bring that 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.240 up because it's really important to recognize that, isn't there 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.400 because there is more stigma around men being the victims 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:57.720 of this sort of crime. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:06:59.760 Would you say that that's correct. 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.560 I think there's more stigma in some ways but not 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.320 in others. But absolutely yes, we must acknowledge and understand 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.960 the sexual offending that happens against men. It's a very 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:15.600 traumatizing experience for men as well, and so we certainly 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.800 need to be understanding that and attending to that. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:20.320 Now prevention efforts as well. 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.840 One of the biggest issues, it seems that stops people 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:38.120 coming forward with sexual assault allegations. Is that judicial process 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.240 that can be quite traumatic, you know, having to relive 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.760 your experience to police, to lawyers, to a courtroom, facing 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.000 cross examination, things like that. What changes have you seen 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.760 in recent years to try and improve that process for victims. 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.120 Yeah, there's been quite a few changes. So there was 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.800 pilot courts in Auckland and Fugaday which involved training court staff, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.040 training judges about the traumatization of victims and how to 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.880 work with them in ways which would not or would 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.960 retraumatize them less. So judges introducing themselves before the trial, 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:12.920 letting victims know that, you know, it was okay to 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.440 take a break if they need it. You know, that 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.760 kind of thing has been really helpful. We've had prosecution 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.080 guidelines in place of sexual violence for a few years now, 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.040 so prosecutors are more aware about again how to not 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.320 step into that retraumatizing victims. So that's been really helpful. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:33.040 Lots of changes in police to interview people in ways 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.920 which are again less traumatizing, so asking people what happened 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.760 and then what happened and so helping the person to 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.040 sequence the events without suggestions from them if you like. 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.319 So that's you know, that helps a person's brain when 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.439 it's when the person is traumatized. So we've had specialist 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.680 adult sexual assault teams and police, so specialist people doing 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.600 the interviews as well as the investigations. So there has 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.400 been a lot of change, but we nowhere near where 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:00.360 we need to be yet. 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.400 What changes would you like to see? 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:03.600 So all sorts of things. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.440 I mean, we'd like to change the fact finder in 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.439 the court to a judge and who trained jurists. Basically, 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:13.240 what happens now is that defense lawyers do their job 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:15.920 often by undermining the credibility of a victim and putting 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:17.120 it back on them, and. 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:18.880 That's just not helpful. 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:22.280 So we would rather have judges asking the questions necessary 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.880 and defense lawyers only asking those questions which were not 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.000 covered by the judge. So we'd like to see that change. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:34.160 We'd like to see treatment courts, So these were explored 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.680 by the Law Commissions some years ago, where a person could, 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.880 if they paid guilty, could be assessed for treatment as 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:46.600 different to you know, an automatic assumption of a prison sentence. 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.559 The reason for this is that you know, many victims 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.880 come to us and say that they don't want the 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.920 person you know, hugely punished What they really want is 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.839 for them to never do it to anyone else again. 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.680 And so not everybody you know, are going to gain 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.680 from treatment, but many people can. 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:05.520 So we would like to see that change. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.120 We think that that would bring more people to make 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.760 a complaint if they knew that the outcome that they 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.720 want was possible through the judicial system. 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.520 And other changes happening in regards to giving evidence in 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.560 court via AVL or perhaps in another room. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.079 Yes, so there are changes. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.880 Not all courts have the facilities across the country, but yes, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.200 an expect you know that it should be possible to 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.040 give evidence by audiovisual link into the court. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.520 So we've previously had that for children and it's been. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.480 Possible under our law for quite some time, but there's 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.720 a shift towards that being more accepted as part of 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:47.360 the process. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:51.680 Everyone was pretty outraged. 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.480 I think it's all that's been see on Instagram and 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:54.640 like social media this week. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.800 We're fighting for justice and our rights. 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.280 Any of my girl Vlope brind if they went for 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.840 any of that shit, that guy wouldn't be a nine 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.640 month He'll be six free. Down here to protest the 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.920 sentence of Jaden Meyer, who raped and sexually assaulted five 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.000 teenagers when he was sixteen. He'll spends nine months on 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.440 home detention. A sentence, this advocate says, isn't enough. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.840 I was absolutely outraged. It makes absolutely no sense. 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.280 It's pretty much telling the younger generation that it's okay 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:24.839 to do this, and you're going to get away with 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:31.080 a slap on the hand, Like, come on, Even when 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.000 you do go through the process, there's no guarantee of 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.480 what sort of punishment perpetrators will receive. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:38.120 You mentioned that a little bit before. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.880 How frustrated do you get when you see a judge's comments, 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.440 or maybe not even a judge's comments, a lawyer's comments 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:51.239 or comments from the courtroom that when putting down a sentence, 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.200 you hear the phrase it would ruin their future prospects. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.400 Yes, that's very frustrating because they should have thought of 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.319 it before they took the action. Regardless of their future prospects, 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.720 they have already harmed the person's future prospects because, you know, 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.760 sex assault isn't it a one night thing. You know, 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.560 for many people, it's something that they carry through their 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.360 lives for a very long time, if not forever. Our 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:21.400 nervous systems don't really fully recover from being really harmed, 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.640 and you know, it can lead if you develop PTSD 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.679 from the assault, it can lead to you being more 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.880 likely to develop PTSD through your lifetime. Some people, you know, 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.520 respond by isolating themselves and not going out. And you know, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:37.640 the more that you withdraw from the life and the 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.480 world and people, you know, the much narrower your whole 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.240 life is as you go forward. Other people might have 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.839 recurring anxiety or depression you know, through their lives. So 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.600 when you do this to somebody else, you alter the 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:55.000 trajectory of their life. So actually, if the trajectory of 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:59.600 your life is also altered, well that sounds like justice. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:05.320 The government's currently working on to our DAKUDA, a twenty 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.600 five year National Strategy for the Prevention of Family and 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:09.600 Sexual violence. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:11.479 Are you happy with how this is progressing. 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.080 Well, it's fantastic that there is a national strategy, and 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:19.240 it's fantastic that this government continued that strategy and kept 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.079 investing in that strategy. Of course, we like to see 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.440 everything move faster than it is, because twenty five years 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.560 is really not very long at all in terms of 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.439 you know, turning the tide on this kind of violence. 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.440 The strategy is for sexual violence and for what we 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.920 call family violence, and so certainly, you know, resources are 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.440 spread across those which slows things down. But I think 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.080 this is say, compared to Australia, which has a child 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.640 sexual abuse strategy just you know, on its own, we 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.480 would like to see more happening faster, but we're certainly 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:56.079 grateful for the work that is happening in that strategy. 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.400 So things like training are strate to try workers. You know, 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:01.880 thousands of people are going to be trained over the 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.520 next few years in terms of how to respond to 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.000 people who disclose sexual violence. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:08.160 So that's a real win. 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.400 And I read a statistic that I found actually quite startling, 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.920 and you mentioned it in the beginning of our conversation. 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.599 One in four New Zealand girls may be sexually abused 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.920 before she turns sixteen, and around ninety percent of the 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.440 abuse will be done by someone she knows. Now, I 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.480 read this on the DREM section of the help website. 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.640 Can you tell me a little bit about this offshoot? 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:34.760 Yeah, So, DEARIM is. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.800 A leadership program for young people who are interested in 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.480 ending sexual violence. So we work with them to look 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.720 at you know, to help them understand the ways they 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:45.280 can do that. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.560 They get to do. 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.680 Projects which are their projects of how they would like 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.280 to do this. So one young woman did a podcast, 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.640 another young woman has led some actions or a petition 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:03.040 on consent law reform. They go into the university and 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.160 talk to counselors about what young people need in these situations. 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.560 So you know, a variety of different actions every year, 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.160 but it's kind of fostering their knowledge and their sense 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.880 of how they can participate in making this change in 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:16.280 the world. 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.360 They also have very flourishing social media. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:24.480 So Instagram in particular, just spreading the messages really about 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.640 what needs to change to end sexual violence. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.400 If there was one thing, Catherine, that you'd like any 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.960 political party to introduce as a policy to tackle this 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.520 issue in sexual violence and rape, what would it be. 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.880 To be honest, The one that's dearest to my heart 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.960 at the moment is the Justice Select Committee has looked 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.000 at how we stop children on the stand being accused 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.920 of having consented to sexual activity, and we're talking, you know, 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.240 children as young as five or six years old, you know, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.640 being accused of that. So there is a bill looking 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.480 at that. At the moment, the government doesn't have that 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.040 in the stated plan to enact that bolt, to make 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.680 that bill into law. That bill would stop any child 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.000 under twelve being challenged about consent. But yeah, we'd really 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.520 like to see that fast tracted in as soon as possible, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.920 because it's really quite an indictement on our society that 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.720 we challenge six year olds about having consented to sexual 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:22.240 things done to them by adults. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.320 Thanks for joining us, Catherine. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:24.800 Thank you. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.480 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.320 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.360 at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.160 produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:44.360 our sound engineer. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:46.360 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.120 Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.960 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.280 behind the headlines.