Speaker 1: Hilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front.
Speaker 2: Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2: If you've looked at headlines around the world lately, you'd
Speaker 2: be forgiven for thinking that immigration is the root of
Speaker 2: all our problems. Perhaps the most vocal anti immigration critic
Speaker 2: at the moment is the United States, with mass deportations
Speaker 2: happening against undocumented migrants. Now, the UK is vowing to
Speaker 2: fix a broken immigration system with new policies which are
Speaker 2: estimated to lead to a one hundred thousand drop in
Speaker 2: immigration per year by twenty twenty nine. The move comes
Speaker 2: after the rise of reform UK with a staunch anti
Speaker 2: immigration policy that has become more mainstream in recent years.
Speaker 2: So why are a lot of countries turning against immigration
Speaker 2: and are those concerns valid or passing? Theme today on
Speaker 2: the Front Page, Massy University Distinguished Professor Paul Spoonley is
Speaker 2: with us to explore the realities and fictions of immigration policy.
Speaker 1: So Paul, can you.
Speaker 2: Tell me a bit about the UK reforms and what
Speaker 2: changes might be on the table there?
Speaker 3: Yes, the announcement by Kirs Starmer was really interesting. It
Speaker 3: indicates something of a reversal policy. You must understand that
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three the UK experienced a major surgeon migration.
Speaker 3: Nearly nine hundred thousand people are own and what Starma
Speaker 3: announced was that he was going to reverse what he
Speaker 3: called a failed experiment. The paper is called Restoring Control
Speaker 3: over the Immigration System. So essentially what they want to
Speaker 3: do is reduce immigration by about one hundred thousand per year.
Speaker 3: By the way, the numbers are dropped by about forty
Speaker 3: percent since that peak and twenty three, so they were
Speaker 3: already falling, but they want to reduce them by a
Speaker 3: further one hundred thousand. They're essentially going to tighten the rules.
Speaker 3: They're going to focus on skilled migrants. They're going to
Speaker 3: reduce the number of international students that are coming across.
Speaker 4: They're going to.
Speaker 3: Start particular categories, like there's a lot of international recruitment
Speaker 3: for social key workers and that's going to be stopped.
Speaker 4: So there's a whole lot of things that they're going
Speaker 4: to do.
Speaker 3: But essentially they're going to tighten up the regulations, reduce
Speaker 3: the numbers, focus more on skilled migrants.
Speaker 5: A strategy absolutely central to my plan for change that
Speaker 5: will finally take back control of our borders and close
Speaker 5: the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our
Speaker 5: economy and our country. Take back control. Everyone knows that slogan,
Speaker 5: and everyone knows what it meant on immigration, or at
Speaker 5: least that's what people thought.
Speaker 2: I've seen a commentator calling the move completely untethered from reality.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3: No, I wouldn't entirely. I think there's a sense in
Speaker 3: which we need to control immigration, and for a country
Speaker 3: that has a population as large as the UK's, then
Speaker 3: migration needs to come in. The thing that always gets
Speaker 3: me is that when they debate how to manage migration,
Speaker 3: they look to what they call the Australian system. In fact,
Speaker 3: it's the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand system, which allocates
Speaker 3: points to those people that you want to come to
Speaker 3: your country, so you know, you focus on particular sets
Speaker 3: of skills, certain characteristics. The British media and to some
Speaker 3: extent the British public always react negatively to that possibility,
Speaker 3: and so it's not appropriate for the UK. I do
Speaker 3: think there's an element of racism here, and I noticed
Speaker 3: that Starma has faced quite considerable backlash from his backbenches
Speaker 3: who say that this is not what labor should be doing,
Speaker 3: because I think Starma has really tried to undermine some
Speaker 3: of the support that's been growing for the Reform Party.
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, what he's done is really antagonized
Speaker 3: some of his some of his own MPs.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 2: The readmission of the English test would point towards a
Speaker 2: kind of racist aspect, wouldn't it.
Speaker 4: Yes, it does.
Speaker 3: I mean the thing is whether or not you test
Speaker 3: people at the border and stop them from coming because
Speaker 3: they don't have adequate English language competency, or whether that's
Speaker 3: something that you provide once they arrive. So in the
Speaker 3: case of Canada, you get a very generous allocation of
Speaker 3: free English language tuition once you arrive in the country.
Speaker 3: So when you you start putting up barriers like that,
Speaker 3: and when you start using criteria like language, it does
Speaker 3: tend to suggest that there's a racist element to all
Speaker 3: of theirs. Now, I don't have a problem with testing
Speaker 3: on competency and English language competency, but then she shouldn't.
Speaker 3: The country that's going to accept these skilled migrants also
Speaker 3: have some responsibility.
Speaker 1: I do remember.
Speaker 2: Actually, my mum was born in the UK when she
Speaker 2: was younger and brought over to Australia, and when she
Speaker 2: finally got her Australian citizenship at the age of I
Speaker 2: think like forty five or fifty or something, she was
Speaker 2: terrified of the English language test. It's not just people
Speaker 2: from other non speaking countries, it's everyone that has to
Speaker 2: do it. A So the UK move has been influenced
Speaker 2: by Nigel Faraja's Reform UK Party, which in the last
Speaker 2: year has emerged as perhaps the main opposition party there
Speaker 2: in terms of poll numbers. Anyway, does it seem that
Speaker 2: anti immigration policy is coming a lot more in the mainstream.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And in twenty twenty four we had what was
Speaker 3: called the super election year, a lot of elections around
Speaker 3: the world, and what you noticed in Europe and including
Speaker 3: in the UK, is the rise and rise of the
Speaker 3: far right and anti immigrant politics. So you know, you
Speaker 3: can think of Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, Hungary, Poland all
Speaker 3: of these countries saw parties and politicians who, as part
Speaker 3: of the central policy platform are anti immigrant get support.
Speaker 3: So I think it's a particular moment. It's particularly a
Speaker 3: moment in Europe. But of course we've also seen some
Speaker 3: very strong anti immigrant politics emerge in the United States.
Speaker 4: Under President Trump.
Speaker 3: So I just think it's one of those moments when
Speaker 3: we are seeing quite a strong pushback and concern around
Speaker 3: what's happening in terms of of immigrants impacting upon an
Speaker 3: economy or a society.
Speaker 6: We're tracking down the illegal alien criminals, we're detaining them,
Speaker 6: and we are throwing them the hell out of our country.
Speaker 6: We have no apologies, and we're moving forward very fast.
Speaker 6: They're very dangerous people, you know. I think my campaign
Speaker 6: I really focused on the border more than anything else.
Speaker 6: A lot of people said the biggest thing was inflation
Speaker 6: and the economy, and then maybe the border was third.
Speaker 6: I always thought the border was first because I felt
Speaker 6: that people could really understand that you can't have people
Speaker 6: pouring in from the prisons all over the world and
Speaker 6: from mental institutions all over the world and dumped into
Speaker 6: our country.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the US there, and I mean, obviously that's
Speaker 2: turned against immigration quite strongly.
Speaker 1: Under Donald Trump's regime.
Speaker 2: You're reading stories every other day about families being separated
Speaker 2: by ice, about mass raids in major cities, or people
Speaker 2: being wrongly deported, notably Kilma Abrego Garci, Yeah, who has
Speaker 2: been sent to prison in El Salvador, why are countries
Speaker 2: like the US and the UK so against immigration.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's part of a general anxiety, and
Speaker 3: I always see an economic dimension to this as well
Speaker 3: as a cultural dimension. And what you're seeing in Europe
Speaker 3: is arguments about what's called replacement, which is the idea
Speaker 3: that somehow non Western, particularly Muslim immigrants are replacing what
Speaker 3: you had before they were a threat. But then what
Speaker 3: you get with particularly people like Oban and Hungary or
Speaker 3: Trump in America, is you get these very explicit arguments
Speaker 3: that immigrants equals crime, that when you get immigrants coming
Speaker 3: into your country, your crime rate goes up, so they
Speaker 3: demonize immigrants. I do think there's a moment that we're
Speaker 3: seeing where quite considerable groups within societies see immigrants as
Speaker 3: a threat, and politicians are reflecting and speaking to that threat.
Speaker 2: Housing shortages as well is often blamed on immigrants. You've
Speaker 2: had that sentiment here as well with the previous governments
Speaker 2: foreign buyers ban.
Speaker 1: Is that really the case?
Speaker 4: Yes, it is so.
Speaker 3: In New Zealand in twenty twenty three we saw the
Speaker 3: population grow by two point eight percent, and two point
Speaker 3: four percent of that came from net migration gains.
Speaker 4: So New Zealand had really high as did.
Speaker 3: A lot of other countries, but New Zealand had really
Speaker 3: high net migration. And what you see is that the
Speaker 3: deficit when it comes to the provision of services and infrastructure,
Speaker 3: it's greater because the population growth outstrips the ability to
Speaker 3: provide those services. So what we're seeing is in Europe
Speaker 3: the far right beginning to normalize anti immigrant sentiments. But
Speaker 3: we've also seen less of center governments in Australia, Canada
Speaker 3: and the UK all announced that they go to reduce
Speaker 3: the number of immigrants coming into all three countries.
Speaker 4: And a key argument, or a key part of what they're.
Speaker 3: Doing is that they think that the social license that
Speaker 3: existed and allowed governments to bring in immigrants is being
Speaker 3: undermined by the fact that when you're getting significant immigrant arrivals,
Speaker 3: you know, the provision of housing, the cost of housing,
Speaker 3: the provision of services like transport or whatever else, and
Speaker 3: particularly in the major cities, is simply not keeping up
Speaker 3: with immigrant arrivals. So we've seen these left of center
Speaker 3: governments also beginning to harden their approach to immigration and
Speaker 3: reduce the.
Speaker 2: Numbers immigrants, though aren't they often the ones who take
Speaker 2: up the jobs that people don't want to do. In
Speaker 2: the UK, for example, into this new proposal, care companies
Speaker 2: will be prevented from recruiting staff from overseas. But those
Speaker 2: companies have come out and warned that some services will
Speaker 2: struggle to survive without those international record So what's the
Speaker 2: thinking there?
Speaker 3: Yes, and I think this is universally the case, so
Speaker 3: that in New Zealand, for example, a very significant proportion
Speaker 3: of our eldercare workforce are immigrants, a very significant part
Speaker 3: of our dairy sector workforce are immigrants. And when you
Speaker 3: translate that into countries like the UK, and what you
Speaker 3: see is these whole range of sectors and positions where
Speaker 3: immigrants absolutely fill essential positions. We're all struggling to get
Speaker 3: healthcare workers right from the top skill to the people
Speaker 3: that help out on the wards. And what you see
Speaker 3: is this major churn around the world where people recruit
Speaker 3: immigrants to help and those sectors in the UK, and
Speaker 3: for example, in nursing, they've got a very significant target
Speaker 3: for a nurse of recruiting nurses. They're coming from the Philippines,
Speaker 3: Nigerian and Kenya this year, and I just don't see
Speaker 3: the alternative.
Speaker 4: And I've got.
Speaker 3: I don't know whether you're going to ask the Chelsea,
Speaker 3: but I've got to say that when you look at
Speaker 3: the evidence, then migrants are a significant net contributor to
Speaker 3: the economy and to the finances of the country. So
Speaker 3: on balance, you know, migrants are good. Migrants are good
Speaker 3: for the economy, they're good for particular sectors. But we're
Speaker 3: still seeing this pushback in terms of anxiety about migrants
Speaker 3: taking our jobs.
Speaker 4: And I put quotation backs around it.
Speaker 7: To be honest with you. Six of the stomach is
Speaker 7: my opinion. All has always been a darvel s culture.
Speaker 7: From me growing up, there's been mixed race people yet,
Speaker 7: so it's nothing to do with skin prejudices. These riots.
Speaker 7: It's mounted or with race or religion. I think it's
Speaker 7: just got a point where the British public a six
Speaker 7: a death of the government prioritizing all the new immigrants
Speaker 7: that are coming in the contrary over the rom recessions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you look at some of those far
Speaker 2: right parties in Europe, a lot of them are pretty
Speaker 2: anti Muslim, anti refugee, anti their culture being taken over.
Speaker 2: I guess how would you place New Zealand in that
Speaker 2: kind of sentiment.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's the same at all, and there
Speaker 3: are some important differences in terms of immigration. So in
Speaker 3: most of Europe, the immigrants we're talking about are actually refugees.
Speaker 3: So in twenty fifteen and again in twenty sixteen, a
Speaker 3: million over a million people arrived at the borders of
Speaker 3: various European countries. Australian, Canada, New Zealand target skilled migrants
Speaker 3: and we use our points system to identify who's going
Speaker 3: to be appropriate, and we have a very managed immigration system.
Speaker 3: Most of Europe does not. I think that there are differences,
Speaker 3: and I just want to add that when you approve
Speaker 3: migrants who are skilled, well educated, and in the New
Speaker 3: Zealand case, they are better educated and sometimes more skilled
Speaker 3: than the New Zealand population, when you approve them, the outcomes,
Speaker 3: the settlement outcomes for those migrants tend to be much better.
Speaker 3: But of course Europe is dealing with people who are traumatized,
Speaker 3: who are refugees, very significant numbers of asylum seekers, and
Speaker 3: of course there are issues around settling those migrants into society.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't I just think New Zealand and Australia and Canada,
Speaker 3: the general approach to migration is much more positive. The
Speaker 3: way in which we manage migration is very different, and
Speaker 3: we just don't have those very strong anti immigrant policies
Speaker 3: we have into immigrant you know communities in New Zealand
Speaker 3: we have people who are very anxious about but that
Speaker 3: they don't represent significant parts of our political constituencies.
Speaker 2: And do you think that those different sentiments perhaps towards
Speaker 2: different kinds of tiers of migrants, For examp, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: whether they're asylum seekers or refugees. I mean Australia still
Speaker 2: parrots on about boat people, which is a derogatory term. Now,
Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that there's different feelings towards
Speaker 2: different types of people entering our country?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? And the surveys, let's stick with New Zealand. The
Speaker 3: surveys of New Zealand showed that absolutely.
Speaker 6: So.
Speaker 3: Refugees are always seen as different from migrants more generally
Speaker 3: and are seen in a more negative light. People from
Speaker 3: the UK and to some extent places like South Africa
Speaker 3: are rated much more positively as migrants that we want
Speaker 3: compared to those who come from Asia. And unfortunately the
Speaker 3: migrants from the Pacific tend to be rated as the
Speaker 3: lowest the least desirable by the New Zealand's is answering
Speaker 3: these surveys. So there is a ranking that operates, and
Speaker 3: definitely people within New Zealand that see migrants quite differently
Speaker 3: depending upon where they come from, what they look like.
Speaker 2: I guess when it comes to the care industry, for example,
Speaker 2: in nursing, I guess an easy solution would be for
Speaker 2: those types of companies in those industries to pay people
Speaker 2: better rather.
Speaker 1: Than relying on low wage, low skilled workers. Do you
Speaker 1: think that will ever happen.
Speaker 3: I know, I don't think the economies of particular sectors
Speaker 3: and organizations allow them to pay a lot better, as
Speaker 3: much as that would be desirable. I think that's quite
Speaker 3: an issue, and you see it in hospitality, you can
Speaker 3: see it in a number of sectors. And of course
Speaker 3: when you don't have a domestic population that's not keen
Speaker 3: on the conditions or the pay, then almost inevitably those
Speaker 3: employers will seek people from overseas to come and work
Speaker 3: in their sector. So it's a conundrum and I'm not
Speaker 3: sure that there's an easy fix to that, And in
Speaker 3: terms of your question, I don't see any major changes
Speaker 3: occurring anytime soon. Those companies and those organizations and those
Speaker 3: sectors will.
Speaker 4: Rely on low skilled.
Speaker 3: Migrants who are prepared to accept the conditions in pain.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 2: I know that with the city rail link in Auckland,
Speaker 2: one of the things that has held that up has
Speaker 2: been that we rely on foreign workers from the Philippines
Speaker 2: and the like to work on that, and many of
Speaker 2: them went home during COVID. So are some of our
Speaker 2: key industries perhaps over reliant on migrant workers.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I think that some of those sectors have
Speaker 3: realized that. So the IT sector, which is very reliant
Speaker 3: on immigrant workers coming in the level tuns typically around
Speaker 3: ten or twelve thousand jobs per year, and what you
Speaker 3: see is over half of those jobs quite often filled
Speaker 3: by migrants. And what they've decided is that they need
Speaker 3: to invest more in terms of local recruitment, local training,
Speaker 3: and not rely on migrants. I don't think it's true universally,
Speaker 3: but for some sectors, I think this is what I
Speaker 3: would call a sugar rush that you know, there's a
Speaker 3: easy fix, and you can get it by getting more
Speaker 3: agrson and it avoids you having to do more work
Speaker 3: and invest more in terms of recruiting and training local
Speaker 3: new Zealanders, and the Minister, by the way, has made
Speaker 3: it fear that there must be much more effort put
Speaker 3: into recruiting New Zealanders rather than just simply relying on immigrants.
Speaker 3: If the answer is immigration, I think probably the wrong
Speaker 3: questions being asked. I think we do tend in some
Speaker 3: sectors to be over reliant on immigrants, and that that
Speaker 3: needs to be looked at quite closely.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Paul, You're welcome.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Chelsea.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front
Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or.
Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcas
Speaker 2: Casts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.