WEBVTT - How fair is it for countries to blame immigration for their issues? 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:07.880 Hilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front. 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:11.880 Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.959 If you've looked at headlines around the world lately, you'd 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:21.320 be forgiven for thinking that immigration is the root of 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.880 all our problems. Perhaps the most vocal anti immigration critic 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.400 at the moment is the United States, with mass deportations 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:34.239 happening against undocumented migrants. Now, the UK is vowing to 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.440 fix a broken immigration system with new policies which are 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.600 estimated to lead to a one hundred thousand drop in 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.680 immigration per year by twenty twenty nine. The move comes 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.040 after the rise of reform UK with a staunch anti 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.040 immigration policy that has become more mainstream in recent years. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.280 So why are a lot of countries turning against immigration 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.200 and are those concerns valid or passing? Theme today on 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.520 the Front Page, Massy University Distinguished Professor Paul Spoonley is 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:11.000 with us to explore the realities and fictions of immigration policy. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:16.839 So Paul, can you. 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.399 Tell me a bit about the UK reforms and what 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.600 changes might be on the table there? 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:27.280 Yes, the announcement by Kirs Starmer was really interesting. It 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.399 indicates something of a reversal policy. You must understand that 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:36.039 in twenty twenty three the UK experienced a major surgeon migration. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.160 Nearly nine hundred thousand people are own and what Starma 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.280 announced was that he was going to reverse what he 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.640 called a failed experiment. The paper is called Restoring Control 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.840 over the Immigration System. So essentially what they want to 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.720 do is reduce immigration by about one hundred thousand per year. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.360 By the way, the numbers are dropped by about forty 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.920 percent since that peak and twenty three, so they were 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.960 already falling, but they want to reduce them by a 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.480 further one hundred thousand. They're essentially going to tighten the rules. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.000 They're going to focus on skilled migrants. They're going to 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.800 reduce the number of international students that are coming across. 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:13.639 They're going to. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.040 Start particular categories, like there's a lot of international recruitment 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.040 for social key workers and that's going to be stopped. 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.520 So there's a whole lot of things that they're going 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:23.720 to do. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.000 But essentially they're going to tighten up the regulations, reduce 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.000 the numbers, focus more on skilled migrants. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:37.000 A strategy absolutely central to my plan for change that 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:42.120 will finally take back control of our borders and close 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.280 the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:54.239 economy and our country. Take back control. Everyone knows that slogan, 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.040 and everyone knows what it meant on immigration, or at 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.600 least that's what people thought. 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:10.079 I've seen a commentator calling the move completely untethered from reality. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:11.240 Would you agree with that? 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:16.440 No, I wouldn't entirely. I think there's a sense in 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.520 which we need to control immigration, and for a country 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.360 that has a population as large as the UK's, then 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.680 migration needs to come in. The thing that always gets 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:31.120 me is that when they debate how to manage migration, 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.280 they look to what they call the Australian system. In fact, 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.840 it's the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand system, which allocates 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.000 points to those people that you want to come to 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.800 your country, so you know, you focus on particular sets 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:49.200 of skills, certain characteristics. The British media and to some 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.080 extent the British public always react negatively to that possibility, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.640 and so it's not appropriate for the UK. I do 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.760 think there's an element of racism here, and I noticed 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:04.760 that Starma has faced quite considerable backlash from his backbenches 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.760 who say that this is not what labor should be doing, 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:13.280 because I think Starma has really tried to undermine some 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.640 of the support that's been growing for the Reform Party. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.120 But in the meantime, what he's done is really antagonized 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.440 some of his some of his own MPs. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:26.160 Well. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.560 The readmission of the English test would point towards a 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.480 kind of racist aspect, wouldn't it. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:34.799 Yes, it does. 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.359 I mean the thing is whether or not you test 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.080 people at the border and stop them from coming because 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.159 they don't have adequate English language competency, or whether that's 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.919 something that you provide once they arrive. So in the 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:54.880 case of Canada, you get a very generous allocation of 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.960 free English language tuition once you arrive in the country. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.880 So when you you start putting up barriers like that, 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.919 and when you start using criteria like language, it does 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.320 tend to suggest that there's a racist element to all 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.600 of theirs. Now, I don't have a problem with testing 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:19.000 on competency and English language competency, but then she shouldn't. 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.320 The country that's going to accept these skilled migrants also 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:23.640 have some responsibility. 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:24.320 I do remember. 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.320 Actually, my mum was born in the UK when she 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.680 was younger and brought over to Australia, and when she 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.640 finally got her Australian citizenship at the age of I 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.039 think like forty five or fifty or something, she was 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:39.040 terrified of the English language test. It's not just people 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.560 from other non speaking countries, it's everyone that has to 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.320 do it. A So the UK move has been influenced 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.720 by Nigel Faraja's Reform UK Party, which in the last 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.960 year has emerged as perhaps the main opposition party there 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.640 in terms of poll numbers. Anyway, does it seem that 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.360 anti immigration policy is coming a lot more in the mainstream. 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.760 Absolutely, And in twenty twenty four we had what was 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.599 called the super election year, a lot of elections around 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.000 the world, and what you noticed in Europe and including 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.320 in the UK, is the rise and rise of the 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:18.080 far right and anti immigrant politics. So you know, you 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:24.680 can think of Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, Hungary, Poland all 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:31.080 of these countries saw parties and politicians who, as part 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.640 of the central policy platform are anti immigrant get support. 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.200 So I think it's a particular moment. It's particularly a 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.920 moment in Europe. But of course we've also seen some 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.960 very strong anti immigrant politics emerge in the United States. 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.160 Under President Trump. 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.840 So I just think it's one of those moments when 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:57.799 we are seeing quite a strong pushback and concern around 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:03.200 what's happening in terms of of immigrants impacting upon an 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:04.800 economy or a society. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.400 We're tracking down the illegal alien criminals, we're detaining them, 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.160 and we are throwing them the hell out of our country. 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.280 We have no apologies, and we're moving forward very fast. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.040 They're very dangerous people, you know. I think my campaign 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.200 I really focused on the border more than anything else. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.880 A lot of people said the biggest thing was inflation 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.160 and the economy, and then maybe the border was third. 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.000 I always thought the border was first because I felt 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.880 that people could really understand that you can't have people 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.360 pouring in from the prisons all over the world and 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.160 from mental institutions all over the world and dumped into 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:39.760 our country. 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.120 You mentioned the US there, and I mean, obviously that's 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.440 turned against immigration quite strongly. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:49.280 Under Donald Trump's regime. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.760 You're reading stories every other day about families being separated 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.720 by ice, about mass raids in major cities, or people 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.800 being wrongly deported, notably Kilma Abrego Garci, Yeah, who has 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.440 been sent to prison in El Salvador, why are countries 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.880 like the US and the UK so against immigration. 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.360 Well, I think it's part of a general anxiety, and 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.800 I always see an economic dimension to this as well 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.400 as a cultural dimension. And what you're seeing in Europe 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.160 is arguments about what's called replacement, which is the idea 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:26.280 that somehow non Western, particularly Muslim immigrants are replacing what 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.360 you had before they were a threat. But then what 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.920 you get with particularly people like Oban and Hungary or 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.960 Trump in America, is you get these very explicit arguments 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.680 that immigrants equals crime, that when you get immigrants coming 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.600 into your country, your crime rate goes up, so they 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:48.320 demonize immigrants. I do think there's a moment that we're 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:54.440 seeing where quite considerable groups within societies see immigrants as 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:59.199 a threat, and politicians are reflecting and speaking to that threat. 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.520 Housing shortages as well is often blamed on immigrants. You've 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.120 had that sentiment here as well with the previous governments 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:14.280 foreign buyers ban. 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:15.720 Is that really the case? 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:17.320 Yes, it is so. 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.200 In New Zealand in twenty twenty three we saw the 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.160 population grow by two point eight percent, and two point 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.400 four percent of that came from net migration gains. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.960 So New Zealand had really high as did. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.160 A lot of other countries, but New Zealand had really 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.880 high net migration. And what you see is that the 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.840 deficit when it comes to the provision of services and infrastructure, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.439 it's greater because the population growth outstrips the ability to 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.319 provide those services. So what we're seeing is in Europe 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.600 the far right beginning to normalize anti immigrant sentiments. But 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:56.280 we've also seen less of center governments in Australia, Canada 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.760 and the UK all announced that they go to reduce 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.079 the number of immigrants coming into all three countries. 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.800 And a key argument, or a key part of what they're. 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.440 Doing is that they think that the social license that 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.200 existed and allowed governments to bring in immigrants is being 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:20.320 undermined by the fact that when you're getting significant immigrant arrivals, 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.040 you know, the provision of housing, the cost of housing, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.480 the provision of services like transport or whatever else, and 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.720 particularly in the major cities, is simply not keeping up 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.960 with immigrant arrivals. So we've seen these left of center 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:40.920 governments also beginning to harden their approach to immigration and 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:41.640 reduce the. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.760 Numbers immigrants, though aren't they often the ones who take 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.000 up the jobs that people don't want to do. In 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.280 the UK, for example, into this new proposal, care companies 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.600 will be prevented from recruiting staff from overseas. But those 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.520 companies have come out and warned that some services will 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:01.240 struggle to survive without those international record So what's the 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:02.079 thinking there? 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:07.040 Yes, and I think this is universally the case, so 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.280 that in New Zealand, for example, a very significant proportion 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.920 of our eldercare workforce are immigrants, a very significant part 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.520 of our dairy sector workforce are immigrants. And when you 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.880 translate that into countries like the UK, and what you 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:25.240 see is these whole range of sectors and positions where 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:30.360 immigrants absolutely fill essential positions. We're all struggling to get 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:34.480 healthcare workers right from the top skill to the people 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.240 that help out on the wards. And what you see 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.560 is this major churn around the world where people recruit 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.000 immigrants to help and those sectors in the UK, and 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.480 for example, in nursing, they've got a very significant target 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.719 for a nurse of recruiting nurses. They're coming from the Philippines, 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.960 Nigerian and Kenya this year, and I just don't see 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:58.239 the alternative. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:11:59.839 And I've got. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.560 I don't know whether you're going to ask the Chelsea, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.800 but I've got to say that when you look at 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:09.760 the evidence, then migrants are a significant net contributor to 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.000 the economy and to the finances of the country. So 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.120 on balance, you know, migrants are good. Migrants are good 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.480 for the economy, they're good for particular sectors. But we're 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.680 still seeing this pushback in terms of anxiety about migrants 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:26.880 taking our jobs. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.440 And I put quotation backs around it. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.599 To be honest with you. Six of the stomach is 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.880 my opinion. All has always been a darvel s culture. 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.560 From me growing up, there's been mixed race people yet, 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.199 so it's nothing to do with skin prejudices. These riots. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.200 It's mounted or with race or religion. I think it's 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.200 just got a point where the British public a six 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.400 a death of the government prioritizing all the new immigrants 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.920 that are coming in the contrary over the rom recessions. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:07.920 Yeah, and if you look at some of those far 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.160 right parties in Europe, a lot of them are pretty 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:15.559 anti Muslim, anti refugee, anti their culture being taken over. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.920 I guess how would you place New Zealand in that 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:20.000 kind of sentiment. 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:22.880 I don't think it's the same at all, and there 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.760 are some important differences in terms of immigration. So in 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.800 most of Europe, the immigrants we're talking about are actually refugees. 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.240 So in twenty fifteen and again in twenty sixteen, a 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.319 million over a million people arrived at the borders of 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:42.600 various European countries. Australian, Canada, New Zealand target skilled migrants 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.000 and we use our points system to identify who's going 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.000 to be appropriate, and we have a very managed immigration system. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.600 Most of Europe does not. I think that there are differences, 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.640 and I just want to add that when you approve 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.680 migrants who are skilled, well educated, and in the New 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.160 Zealand case, they are better educated and sometimes more skilled 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.480 than the New Zealand population, when you approve them, the outcomes, 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.080 the settlement outcomes for those migrants tend to be much better. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.599 But of course Europe is dealing with people who are traumatized, 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.720 who are refugees, very significant numbers of asylum seekers, and 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:26.920 of course there are issues around settling those migrants into society. 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.080 I wouldn't I just think New Zealand and Australia and Canada, 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.040 the general approach to migration is much more positive. The 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.560 way in which we manage migration is very different, and 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.840 we just don't have those very strong anti immigrant policies 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.320 we have into immigrant you know communities in New Zealand 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.160 we have people who are very anxious about but that 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:53.400 they don't represent significant parts of our political constituencies. 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.680 And do you think that those different sentiments perhaps towards 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.840 different kinds of tiers of migrants, For examp, I'm thinking 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.240 whether they're asylum seekers or refugees. I mean Australia still 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.360 parrots on about boat people, which is a derogatory term. Now, 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.440 I mean, do you think that there's different feelings towards 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.440 different types of people entering our country? 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:14.880 Oh? 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.520 Absolutely? And the surveys, let's stick with New Zealand. The 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.480 surveys of New Zealand showed that absolutely. 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:20.680 So. 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:25.280 Refugees are always seen as different from migrants more generally 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.040 and are seen in a more negative light. People from 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.400 the UK and to some extent places like South Africa 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:35.360 are rated much more positively as migrants that we want 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:40.760 compared to those who come from Asia. And unfortunately the 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.880 migrants from the Pacific tend to be rated as the 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.400 lowest the least desirable by the New Zealand's is answering 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.840 these surveys. So there is a ranking that operates, and 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.400 definitely people within New Zealand that see migrants quite differently 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:57.600 depending upon where they come from, what they look like. 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.280 I guess when it comes to the care industry, for example, 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.280 in nursing, I guess an easy solution would be for 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.560 those types of companies in those industries to pay people 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:08.480 better rather. 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.000 Than relying on low wage, low skilled workers. Do you 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:12.000 think that will ever happen. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:17.320 I know, I don't think the economies of particular sectors 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.160 and organizations allow them to pay a lot better, as 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.960 much as that would be desirable. I think that's quite 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.560 an issue, and you see it in hospitality, you can 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.920 see it in a number of sectors. And of course 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.040 when you don't have a domestic population that's not keen 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.560 on the conditions or the pay, then almost inevitably those 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:42.280 employers will seek people from overseas to come and work 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.920 in their sector. So it's a conundrum and I'm not 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.600 sure that there's an easy fix to that, And in 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.240 terms of your question, I don't see any major changes 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.600 occurring anytime soon. Those companies and those organizations and those 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:57.880 sectors will. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.160 Rely on low skilled. 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.960 Migrants who are prepared to accept the conditions in pain. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:03.240 Well. 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.080 I know that with the city rail link in Auckland, 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.680 one of the things that has held that up has 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.840 been that we rely on foreign workers from the Philippines 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.080 and the like to work on that, and many of 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.760 them went home during COVID. So are some of our 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:21.640 key industries perhaps over reliant on migrant workers. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.439 Yes, and I think that some of those sectors have 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.280 realized that. So the IT sector, which is very reliant 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:32.960 on immigrant workers coming in the level tuns typically around 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.879 ten or twelve thousand jobs per year, and what you 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.040 see is over half of those jobs quite often filled 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.600 by migrants. And what they've decided is that they need 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.000 to invest more in terms of local recruitment, local training, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.480 and not rely on migrants. I don't think it's true universally, 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.199 but for some sectors, I think this is what I 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.119 would call a sugar rush that you know, there's a 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.879 easy fix, and you can get it by getting more 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:04.520 agrson and it avoids you having to do more work 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.920 and invest more in terms of recruiting and training local 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.600 new Zealanders, and the Minister, by the way, has made 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.000 it fear that there must be much more effort put 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.600 into recruiting New Zealanders rather than just simply relying on immigrants. 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.480 If the answer is immigration, I think probably the wrong 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.200 questions being asked. I think we do tend in some 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.760 sectors to be over reliant on immigrants, and that that 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.360 needs to be looked at quite closely. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.720 Thanks for joining us, Paul, You're welcome. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:37.439 Thank you, Chelsea. 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.760 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.639 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.679 at enzadherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.440 produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:57.280 our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:58.960 Page on iHeartRadio or. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:00.000 Wherever you get your podcas 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.600 Casts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.