1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 2: Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 2: If you've looked at headlines around the world lately, you'd 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: be forgiven for thinking that immigration is the root of 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: all our problems. Perhaps the most vocal anti immigration critic 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: at the moment is the United States, with mass deportations 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 2: happening against undocumented migrants. Now, the UK is vowing to 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: fix a broken immigration system with new policies which are 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: estimated to lead to a one hundred thousand drop in 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: immigration per year by twenty twenty nine. The move comes 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: after the rise of reform UK with a staunch anti 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: immigration policy that has become more mainstream in recent years. 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: So why are a lot of countries turning against immigration 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: and are those concerns valid or passing? Theme today on 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: the Front Page, Massy University Distinguished Professor Paul Spoonley is 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: with us to explore the realities and fictions of immigration policy. 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: So Paul, can you. 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: Tell me a bit about the UK reforms and what 19 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: changes might be on the table there? 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: Yes, the announcement by Kirs Starmer was really interesting. It 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: indicates something of a reversal policy. You must understand that 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three the UK experienced a major surgeon migration. 23 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 3: Nearly nine hundred thousand people are own and what Starma 24 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: announced was that he was going to reverse what he 25 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 3: called a failed experiment. The paper is called Restoring Control 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: over the Immigration System. So essentially what they want to 27 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: do is reduce immigration by about one hundred thousand per year. 28 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: By the way, the numbers are dropped by about forty 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 3: percent since that peak and twenty three, so they were 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: already falling, but they want to reduce them by a 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 3: further one hundred thousand. They're essentially going to tighten the rules. 32 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: They're going to focus on skilled migrants. They're going to 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 3: reduce the number of international students that are coming across. 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 4: They're going to. 35 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: Start particular categories, like there's a lot of international recruitment 36 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: for social key workers and that's going to be stopped. 37 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 4: So there's a whole lot of things that they're going 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 4: to do. 39 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: But essentially they're going to tighten up the regulations, reduce 40 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: the numbers, focus more on skilled migrants. 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 5: A strategy absolutely central to my plan for change that 42 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 5: will finally take back control of our borders and close 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 5: the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 5: economy and our country. Take back control. Everyone knows that slogan, 45 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 5: and everyone knows what it meant on immigration, or at 46 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 5: least that's what people thought. 47 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 2: I've seen a commentator calling the move completely untethered from reality. 48 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? 49 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: No, I wouldn't entirely. I think there's a sense in 50 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 3: which we need to control immigration, and for a country 51 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 3: that has a population as large as the UK's, then 52 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: migration needs to come in. The thing that always gets 53 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: me is that when they debate how to manage migration, 54 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 3: they look to what they call the Australian system. In fact, 55 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: it's the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand system, which allocates 56 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: points to those people that you want to come to 57 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 3: your country, so you know, you focus on particular sets 58 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: of skills, certain characteristics. The British media and to some 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: extent the British public always react negatively to that possibility, 60 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: and so it's not appropriate for the UK. I do 61 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: think there's an element of racism here, and I noticed 62 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: that Starma has faced quite considerable backlash from his backbenches 63 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 3: who say that this is not what labor should be doing, 64 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 3: because I think Starma has really tried to undermine some 65 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: of the support that's been growing for the Reform Party. 66 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: But in the meantime, what he's done is really antagonized 67 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 3: some of his some of his own MPs. 68 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 6: Well. 69 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: The readmission of the English test would point towards a 70 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: kind of racist aspect, wouldn't it. 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 4: Yes, it does. 72 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 3: I mean the thing is whether or not you test 73 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 3: people at the border and stop them from coming because 74 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 3: they don't have adequate English language competency, or whether that's 75 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 3: something that you provide once they arrive. So in the 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 3: case of Canada, you get a very generous allocation of 77 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: free English language tuition once you arrive in the country. 78 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 3: So when you you start putting up barriers like that, 79 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 3: and when you start using criteria like language, it does 80 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 3: tend to suggest that there's a racist element to all 81 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 3: of theirs. Now, I don't have a problem with testing 82 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: on competency and English language competency, but then she shouldn't. 83 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: The country that's going to accept these skilled migrants also 84 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: have some responsibility. 85 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: I do remember. 86 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: Actually, my mum was born in the UK when she 87 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: was younger and brought over to Australia, and when she 88 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: finally got her Australian citizenship at the age of I 89 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: think like forty five or fifty or something, she was 90 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: terrified of the English language test. It's not just people 91 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: from other non speaking countries, it's everyone that has to 92 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: do it. A So the UK move has been influenced 93 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: by Nigel Faraja's Reform UK Party, which in the last 94 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: year has emerged as perhaps the main opposition party there 95 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: in terms of poll numbers. Anyway, does it seem that 96 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: anti immigration policy is coming a lot more in the mainstream. 97 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And in twenty twenty four we had what was 98 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 3: called the super election year, a lot of elections around 99 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: the world, and what you noticed in Europe and including 100 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: in the UK, is the rise and rise of the 101 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: far right and anti immigrant politics. So you know, you 102 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: can think of Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, Hungary, Poland all 103 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: of these countries saw parties and politicians who, as part 104 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: of the central policy platform are anti immigrant get support. 105 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: So I think it's a particular moment. It's particularly a 106 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: moment in Europe. But of course we've also seen some 107 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: very strong anti immigrant politics emerge in the United States. 108 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 4: Under President Trump. 109 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 3: So I just think it's one of those moments when 110 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 3: we are seeing quite a strong pushback and concern around 111 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 3: what's happening in terms of of immigrants impacting upon an 112 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 3: economy or a society. 113 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 6: We're tracking down the illegal alien criminals, we're detaining them, 114 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 6: and we are throwing them the hell out of our country. 115 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 6: We have no apologies, and we're moving forward very fast. 116 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 6: They're very dangerous people, you know. I think my campaign 117 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 6: I really focused on the border more than anything else. 118 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 6: A lot of people said the biggest thing was inflation 119 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 6: and the economy, and then maybe the border was third. 120 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 6: I always thought the border was first because I felt 121 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 6: that people could really understand that you can't have people 122 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 6: pouring in from the prisons all over the world and 123 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 6: from mental institutions all over the world and dumped into 124 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 6: our country. 125 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: You mentioned the US there, and I mean, obviously that's 126 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: turned against immigration quite strongly. 127 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: Under Donald Trump's regime. 128 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: You're reading stories every other day about families being separated 129 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: by ice, about mass raids in major cities, or people 130 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: being wrongly deported, notably Kilma Abrego Garci, Yeah, who has 131 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: been sent to prison in El Salvador, why are countries 132 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: like the US and the UK so against immigration. 133 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's part of a general anxiety, and 134 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: I always see an economic dimension to this as well 135 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: as a cultural dimension. And what you're seeing in Europe 136 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: is arguments about what's called replacement, which is the idea 137 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 3: that somehow non Western, particularly Muslim immigrants are replacing what 138 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: you had before they were a threat. But then what 139 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: you get with particularly people like Oban and Hungary or 140 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: Trump in America, is you get these very explicit arguments 141 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 3: that immigrants equals crime, that when you get immigrants coming 142 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: into your country, your crime rate goes up, so they 143 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 3: demonize immigrants. I do think there's a moment that we're 144 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 3: seeing where quite considerable groups within societies see immigrants as 145 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 3: a threat, and politicians are reflecting and speaking to that threat. 146 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: Housing shortages as well is often blamed on immigrants. You've 147 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: had that sentiment here as well with the previous governments 148 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: foreign buyers ban. 149 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: Is that really the case? 150 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 4: Yes, it is so. 151 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: In New Zealand in twenty twenty three we saw the 152 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: population grow by two point eight percent, and two point 153 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: four percent of that came from net migration gains. 154 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 4: So New Zealand had really high as did. 155 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: A lot of other countries, but New Zealand had really 156 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: high net migration. And what you see is that the 157 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: deficit when it comes to the provision of services and infrastructure, 158 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 3: it's greater because the population growth outstrips the ability to 159 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 3: provide those services. So what we're seeing is in Europe 160 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: the far right beginning to normalize anti immigrant sentiments. But 161 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: we've also seen less of center governments in Australia, Canada 162 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 3: and the UK all announced that they go to reduce 163 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 3: the number of immigrants coming into all three countries. 164 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 4: And a key argument, or a key part of what they're. 165 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 3: Doing is that they think that the social license that 166 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 3: existed and allowed governments to bring in immigrants is being 167 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 3: undermined by the fact that when you're getting significant immigrant arrivals, 168 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: you know, the provision of housing, the cost of housing, 169 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: the provision of services like transport or whatever else, and 170 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: particularly in the major cities, is simply not keeping up 171 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 3: with immigrant arrivals. So we've seen these left of center 172 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: governments also beginning to harden their approach to immigration and 173 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: reduce the. 174 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: Numbers immigrants, though aren't they often the ones who take 175 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: up the jobs that people don't want to do. In 176 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: the UK, for example, into this new proposal, care companies 177 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: will be prevented from recruiting staff from overseas. But those 178 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 2: companies have come out and warned that some services will 179 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: struggle to survive without those international record So what's the 180 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 2: thinking there? 181 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: Yes, and I think this is universally the case, so 182 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: that in New Zealand, for example, a very significant proportion 183 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: of our eldercare workforce are immigrants, a very significant part 184 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 3: of our dairy sector workforce are immigrants. And when you 185 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: translate that into countries like the UK, and what you 186 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: see is these whole range of sectors and positions where 187 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: immigrants absolutely fill essential positions. We're all struggling to get 188 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 3: healthcare workers right from the top skill to the people 189 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: that help out on the wards. And what you see 190 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 3: is this major churn around the world where people recruit 191 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: immigrants to help and those sectors in the UK, and 192 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: for example, in nursing, they've got a very significant target 193 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 3: for a nurse of recruiting nurses. They're coming from the Philippines, 194 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: Nigerian and Kenya this year, and I just don't see 195 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:58,239 Speaker 3: the alternative. 196 00:11:58,880 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 4: And I've got. 197 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 3: I don't know whether you're going to ask the Chelsea, 198 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: but I've got to say that when you look at 199 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: the evidence, then migrants are a significant net contributor to 200 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 3: the economy and to the finances of the country. So 201 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: on balance, you know, migrants are good. Migrants are good 202 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 3: for the economy, they're good for particular sectors. But we're 203 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: still seeing this pushback in terms of anxiety about migrants 204 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: taking our jobs. 205 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 4: And I put quotation backs around it. 206 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 7: To be honest with you. Six of the stomach is 207 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 7: my opinion. All has always been a darvel s culture. 208 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 7: From me growing up, there's been mixed race people yet, 209 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 7: so it's nothing to do with skin prejudices. These riots. 210 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 7: It's mounted or with race or religion. I think it's 211 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 7: just got a point where the British public a six 212 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 7: a death of the government prioritizing all the new immigrants 213 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 7: that are coming in the contrary over the rom recessions. 214 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you look at some of those far 215 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: right parties in Europe, a lot of them are pretty 216 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 2: anti Muslim, anti refugee, anti their culture being taken over. 217 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: I guess how would you place New Zealand in that 218 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: kind of sentiment. 219 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 3: I don't think it's the same at all, and there 220 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 3: are some important differences in terms of immigration. So in 221 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 3: most of Europe, the immigrants we're talking about are actually refugees. 222 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 3: So in twenty fifteen and again in twenty sixteen, a 223 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 3: million over a million people arrived at the borders of 224 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 3: various European countries. Australian, Canada, New Zealand target skilled migrants 225 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: and we use our points system to identify who's going 226 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: to be appropriate, and we have a very managed immigration system. 227 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 3: Most of Europe does not. I think that there are differences, 228 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 3: and I just want to add that when you approve 229 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 3: migrants who are skilled, well educated, and in the New 230 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 3: Zealand case, they are better educated and sometimes more skilled 231 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 3: than the New Zealand population, when you approve them, the outcomes, 232 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: the settlement outcomes for those migrants tend to be much better. 233 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,599 Speaker 3: But of course Europe is dealing with people who are traumatized, 234 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: who are refugees, very significant numbers of asylum seekers, and 235 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: of course there are issues around settling those migrants into society. 236 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: I wouldn't I just think New Zealand and Australia and Canada, 237 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 3: the general approach to migration is much more positive. The 238 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: way in which we manage migration is very different, and 239 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 3: we just don't have those very strong anti immigrant policies 240 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: we have into immigrant you know communities in New Zealand 241 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: we have people who are very anxious about but that 242 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 3: they don't represent significant parts of our political constituencies. 243 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: And do you think that those different sentiments perhaps towards 244 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: different kinds of tiers of migrants, For examp, I'm thinking 245 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: whether they're asylum seekers or refugees. I mean Australia still 246 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: parrots on about boat people, which is a derogatory term. Now, 247 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that there's different feelings towards 248 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: different types of people entering our country? 249 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 4: Oh? 250 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 3: Absolutely? And the surveys, let's stick with New Zealand. The 251 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: surveys of New Zealand showed that absolutely. 252 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 6: So. 253 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: Refugees are always seen as different from migrants more generally 254 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 3: and are seen in a more negative light. People from 255 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 3: the UK and to some extent places like South Africa 256 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: are rated much more positively as migrants that we want 257 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 3: compared to those who come from Asia. And unfortunately the 258 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 3: migrants from the Pacific tend to be rated as the 259 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: lowest the least desirable by the New Zealand's is answering 260 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: these surveys. So there is a ranking that operates, and 261 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 3: definitely people within New Zealand that see migrants quite differently 262 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: depending upon where they come from, what they look like. 263 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: I guess when it comes to the care industry, for example, 264 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: in nursing, I guess an easy solution would be for 265 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: those types of companies in those industries to pay people 266 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: better rather. 267 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: Than relying on low wage, low skilled workers. Do you 268 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: think that will ever happen. 269 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: I know, I don't think the economies of particular sectors 270 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: and organizations allow them to pay a lot better, as 271 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 3: much as that would be desirable. I think that's quite 272 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: an issue, and you see it in hospitality, you can 273 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: see it in a number of sectors. And of course 274 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: when you don't have a domestic population that's not keen 275 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: on the conditions or the pay, then almost inevitably those 276 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: employers will seek people from overseas to come and work 277 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 3: in their sector. So it's a conundrum and I'm not 278 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 3: sure that there's an easy fix to that, And in 279 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: terms of your question, I don't see any major changes 280 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: occurring anytime soon. Those companies and those organizations and those 281 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: sectors will. 282 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 4: Rely on low skilled. 283 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 3: Migrants who are prepared to accept the conditions in pain. 284 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 6: Well. 285 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: I know that with the city rail link in Auckland, 286 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: one of the things that has held that up has 287 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: been that we rely on foreign workers from the Philippines 288 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: and the like to work on that, and many of 289 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: them went home during COVID. So are some of our 290 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 2: key industries perhaps over reliant on migrant workers. 291 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 3: Yes, and I think that some of those sectors have 292 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: realized that. So the IT sector, which is very reliant 293 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 3: on immigrant workers coming in the level tuns typically around 294 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 3: ten or twelve thousand jobs per year, and what you 295 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: see is over half of those jobs quite often filled 296 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: by migrants. And what they've decided is that they need 297 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: to invest more in terms of local recruitment, local training, 298 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 3: and not rely on migrants. I don't think it's true universally, 299 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 3: but for some sectors, I think this is what I 300 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 3: would call a sugar rush that you know, there's a 301 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 3: easy fix, and you can get it by getting more 302 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: agrson and it avoids you having to do more work 303 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 3: and invest more in terms of recruiting and training local 304 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: new Zealanders, and the Minister, by the way, has made 305 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 3: it fear that there must be much more effort put 306 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 3: into recruiting New Zealanders rather than just simply relying on immigrants. 307 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: If the answer is immigration, I think probably the wrong 308 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 3: questions being asked. I think we do tend in some 309 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: sectors to be over reliant on immigrants, and that that 310 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 3: needs to be looked at quite closely. 311 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Paul, You're welcome. 312 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 4: Thank you, Chelsea. 313 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 314 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 315 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 316 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also 317 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 318 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or. 319 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcas 320 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: Casts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.