WEBVTT - Inside Parliament’s property portfolio: Who owns what, and why it matters 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:05.880 Kiyota. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.119 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:16.960 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Rmps have 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.959 stakes in a combined three hundred and seventy nine million 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:26.040 dollars worth of property in New Zealand. A Herald investigation 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.400 has found that is an average of three point one 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.440 six million dollars across each of our one hundred and 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:38.160 twenty members of Parliament, and despite the rumors, Prime Minister 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.879 Christopher Luxen doesn't top the list as the most lavish 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.600 Today on the front page ends at Herald. Data journalist 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.640 Chris Knox is with us to dive into the numbers 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:59.440 and discuss why it matters. First off, Chris, what motivated 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:04.120 you to investigate and compile this data on MP's property 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.840 ownership and what challenges did you face when gathering this information? 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.280 Well, I guess from the motivation point of view, I 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.399 think that it's an important thing to understand what MPs, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.679 how much property they have, and how they may or 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:23.560 may not impact their decision making. It's something that Parliament 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.920 kind of recognizes as being important by making MPs to 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.360 clear what they have, but they don't actually ask them 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.280 to declare what it's worth. So we decided to kind 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.240 of take it a little bit a step further and 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.479 find out what the property is that they declared were worth, 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.640 which is something the Herald had previously done in twenty thirteen. 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.039 So we're also sort of it's like, well, you know, 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.520 it's been twelve years, let's revisit it and see how. 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:49.120 Things have changed. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:51.200 So you knew where to look. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.440 Yes, we knew where we were starting from the register. 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.360 Who are the top five and what do they own 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:00.520 and how much is it worth? 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:06.240 So the total portfolio is worth about three hundred and 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.200 eighty million or three seventy nine million, and Sue's redmain 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:16.639 is who's the new national MP for Rangotikei. She as 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.320 the top with twenty four about twenty four million, most 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.680 of which is a large farm worth eighteen million. Interestingly enough, 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:31.000 she took over assumed office after Ian Mcalvey retired and 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.960 he was the previous top so it's obviously farms in 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.560 that area are clearly worth quite a bit of money. 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:39.720 He was worth a lot more. I think more like 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:41.200 sixty million if I remember correctly. 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:41.920 Oh wow. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.440 So Luxon is often rumored to have the most significant 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:50.480 property assets. But he came in second, right. 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:55.720 He did, Yes, yes, certainly he had the most significant 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.320 residential property assets, so if you exclude farms to come 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.560 in first. But yeah, so he has a couple of 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.360 houses in Auckland worth about seven million each and one 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:07.560 rental property. 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:09.960 So who came in at three, four and five? 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:15.560 So third was another national farming MP and Barbara Krueger 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.480 who's the national MP for the Taranaki kin Country. She 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.680 has about fourteen and a half million dollars worth of property, 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.079 has declared interest in that and again quite a bit 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:32.280 of that's farming. Fourth was cal Bates who is the 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.880 national MP for Wanganui. And then fifth on the list 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:40.560 was the first non national MP, so Panji Palma, who's 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.480 an act MP, has about eleven million worth of property 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:44.960 in Ackland. 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:50.680 So some MPs have this complicated property asset interest kind 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.080 of thing involving trust. You've got company shareholdings and things 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.560 like that. You just mentioned Old Maiden Wanganui. Was it? 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:03.400 Why is trust ownerships so prevalent among MPs? 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:06.440 I don't know if I have a good answer for that. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:08.560 Is it just what rich people do? 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:10.640 I think that's part of it. 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.800 I think that and there's a bit of commentary round 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.920 because I was trying to work out, like so, I 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.320 think I found that there were forty seven MPs that 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.480 use trusts, which is over a third, and I was 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.160 trying to work out what percentage of New Zealanders used 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.320 trusts and couldn't find kind of good numbers on that. 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:32.960 There were some estimates from two thousand and six from 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.360 IID to I believe, and they were sort of about 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.000 ten percent. But I think it's reasonable. Its hum that, yeah, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.080 the MP usage is higher, but I think part of 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.040 that is just that a lot of MPs have been 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.839 in business for quite a long time before they became MPs. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.720 Certainly farmers make a lot of use of trusts, and 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.240 so I just think that anyone was kind of subset 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.640 your property holdings and also property holdings that kind of 0:04:58.120 --> 0:04:59.880 run across multiple family members. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.360 Trusts seem to be the. 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.920 Other thing I think is that trusts were I think 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.760 this has been some commentary that trust is sort of 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:12.400 overused in New Zealand up until the rules tightened up 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.080 after the Panama papers came out a few years ago. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:20.240 So I think now there are costs, so that the 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.719 costs associated with trusts make it something that you have 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.000 to have a real reason to do, whereas previously it 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:27.760 was just kind of. 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:34.920 Why not, Well, how transparent is the current disclosure regime 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.359 and do you think that gives the public a full 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.719 picture of an MP's wealth. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.640 I mean, I guess it's not. The disclosure regime is 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.200 not intended to give a picture of their wealth, just 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:50.560 the things they have interests in. I think it's reasonably transparent, 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.520 but it does it is a very it assumes good 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.400 behavior by the MPs, so there's a very little enforcement 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.719 kind of that. There's no like the registrar doesn't check 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.279 that MPs have declared things correctly. It's it's kind of 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.919 entirely up to them, and it's only when the media 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.200 raw or another party kind of starts digging around that 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.000 that things kind of may get referred up to an inquiry. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.560 But it isn't like it's not there's not a process 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.920 in place where where so the MP's are given guidance 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.880 and then they make I do think that though the 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:30.120 guidance could be tightened up, like I've noticed a lot 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:36.000 like there's quite a bit of variation between different MPs declarations, 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.240 like for example, the national MP for Kaka has declared 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:45.080 an incredible detail all of his shareholdings, and then other 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.560 people have sent to follow a much more kind of 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.599 sort of vibe based approach, and some some some MP's 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.279 are declaring very like you know this pay of rental 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.279 property in this suburb, and then other just like residential 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.839 property in Auckland, and you're like, you know, so there's 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.120 quite this sort of variation and I think it would 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.000 be good to have a bit more consistency. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:18.360 In the process. It has made up a big part 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:19.760 of the election campaign so far. 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.400 Your party has repeatedly insinuated that labor is planning a 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:24.440 capital gains tax. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:26.360 How many houses do you own? 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.320 I've been upfront seven houses. There are one hundred and 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:31.520 twenty MP's in parliament. 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:32.880 Who owns the most houses? 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:34.040 I have no idea. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.400 Is there any MP you can name who owns more 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:37.000 houses than you? 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:38.040 Don't nijack? 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:40.240 Is there any MP you can name that owns more 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.440 houses than you? I don't know. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:43.640 I don't have a clue who owns what? 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.440 Why is it important for MPs to declare property and 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.880 I guess other financial interests? What are the parliamentary rules 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:57.000 around that kind of transparency basically, so they don't go 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.120 and make decisions. You know, I've got a house in 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.840 COUI coulda for instance, and there's a big development happening. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.440 I have the power to do something about it, right, Yeah. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:12.520 Basically it's to provide transparency about the kind of parliamentary process, 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:18.920 and I think that often I suspect that that often 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:23.200 there's more of a like an assumption of kind of wrongdoing. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:26.120 You know, like if there's. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.760 No information, then it's very easy to kind of start 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.320 speculating about what might be behind decisions, Whereas if the 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.640 information is out there, then you can just kind of 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.560 have a look and be like, okay, you know that 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.319 this that they had these properties, and you know it 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.360 probably didn't impact it, or maybe it did or It 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.920 is interesting though that the local government rules are much 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.640 stricter in terms of it. Once you've declared an interest 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.720 in at least in some of the local government meetings 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.440 that I've seemed, if you have a conflict interest, then 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.320 you actually recruit yourself from that meeting, whereas at a 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.640 parliamentary level, it's more just that declared and then it 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:15.600 doesn't actually impact that you're kind of your decision making process. 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.400 Should there be better safeguards in place to make sure 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.120 that MPs don't make those policy decisions in relation to 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.079 what they own or what kind of interests they might have. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:26.760 Do you think? 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.480 I think it would get pretty tricky. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.360 You know, because you can, you were, one person can 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.040 say I've got shares in New Zealand, and then one 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.360 person can say my cousin's sister works for New Zealand 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:40.959 or something. 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.400 Yeah, I mean, I think that you would land up 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.440 with kind of half of the MPs having to recuse 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.600 themselves from most you know, so many sort of the 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.000 decisions that are made at a national level can have 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:56.040 such a big impact, you know, and like particularly when 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:00.640 you look at the so there was a three million 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.600 dollars of property roughly per MP, but if you look 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.480 at it per party, then the Act and National MPs 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.800 are sitting in more like four and a half million each, 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:12.640 and so that's getting up to be quite a lot 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.720 of kind of interest in property. And so then you know, 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:18.920 do you need to get every national and Act MP 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.520 to accuse themselves from any decision that might impact property prices? 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.079 Which is kind of you know, for all the decisions 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.280 or not quite but you know, certainly there's a lot 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.079 of rules that Parliament can can consider which may or 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.000 may not impact property prices. 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:38.040 Yeah, well, your article mentions restoring mortgage interest deductibility for 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.439 landlords as a significant policy change. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.360 Obviously, how did. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.520 You estimate potential financial impacts for MPs and what did 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:46.360 that reveal? 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.200 Yeah, so I was able to look at a number 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.880 of MPs who declared that they had rental properties, and 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.280 then you can see from records how much they paid 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.920 for those properties and how long ago it was. So 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.800 if and then you have to start making big assumptions, 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.800 which is why we didn't name any MPs for this, 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.680 because the assumption. You know, obviously I have no idea 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:15.160 what an individual mpiece loan structure is, but if you 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.080 kind of generally, you know, there's a requirement at the 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.679 moment that I think, I think there may be some 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.840 move a foot to change it, but at the moment, 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.120 you need a thirty percent deposit for a rental property 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.520 or an investment property. So if we just assume that 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.200 those properties were bought with a loan equal to seven 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.840 seventy percent of the value of the property, and that 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.680 the loan was set for a thirty year term, and 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.680 that the interest rate on average was six percent, which 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.760 is kind of roughly what average interest rates over time are. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.199 Then you can go on to something like the sorted 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.760 mortgage calculator and see what what the what amount of 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.839 interest is being paid after a certain number of years. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.800 So one MP I looked at after seventeen years of 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.040 paying that mortgage, that'd be looking at about fifty thousand 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:12.640 a year in interest payments. And so if and you 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.319 can also assume that all MPs are any extra in 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:17.880 can they gets going to be in the thirty nine 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.400 percent tax bracket because it's probably over one hundred and 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:25.480 eighty thousand, and so then they're able to deduct that. 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.400 So if they've got extra income, then they can deduct 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.400 fifty thousand from their income and in the thirty nine 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.480 percent tax bracket that's going to be about twenty thousand. 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.040 Back tell me, Chris, why does this all matter? 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:38.920 Do you think? 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:44.600 I think it's just important to understand whereut what our 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.920 MP's own, and what they're doing and how those decisions could, 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.839 how any decisions they make could impact their personal situations. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:13:00.480 For example, that the MPs are sitting on almost two 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.880 hundred million worth of family homes and you know, and 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.559 there's there's constant discussions on around things like capital gains tax, 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.280 wealth tax, you know, which isn't say, you know, I'm 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.040 not putting forward whether any of those things are the 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.960 right policy. But I think that that you have to 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:22.760 look at an MP's holdings to really understand how they 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.280 whether they are considering those things kind of from looking 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.880 at a future like what is the tax structure of 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.560 New Zealand how is it going to look going forward 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.600 that sort of thing. Are they actually able to consider 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:41.160 things from from kind of the nation's point of view 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:47.520 or are they too drawn into their own own portfolios? 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:50.679 And a lot of trust goes with that as well, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.000 And like you said, a lot we trust people and 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.840 especially MPs to just do the right thing. 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.960 Hey, yes we do. And so yeah, and I think 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.720 that being able to see what they have. The other 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.440 thing too is that it's not you know, being rich 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.200 is not necessarily a bad thing, you know, And so 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:14.080 I think if it's also good to see what it 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.320 gives us a message of where amps have come from 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.640 and what they've done. And you can see, you know, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.360 you can see their involvement in farming and that sort 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.920 of thing as well as part of this process. 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.200 When you were digging into the numbers and seeing how 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.160 much each person owns and everything. I mean, was there 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:34.160 anyone apart from the top five, say, was there any 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.960 other people that stuck out to you that you thought, 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:38.320 huh interesting? 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:43.200 Not particularly, I mean there was obviously Carl Waits popped 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.760 out as there was something interesting going on. 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.200 There because his family ended up being one of the 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.280 largest landlords in that area. 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.680 Hey, yes, that certainly. 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.280 Looks like there were one of the largest private landels 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.600 in his own electorate, which is an interesting situation to 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.840 be in, and one I think that ought to. 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:06.800 Be more transparent. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.400 I think actually one of the things that I was 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.520 surprised by was that, compared to the last time the 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:19.600 Herald did it, the kind of the headline numbers aren't 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:27.520 actually that large. So for example, Ian Mcalvey was worth 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.720 on the era of about sixty million in twenty thirteen, 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:38.360 and John keyes properties were worth far more than the 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.120 Prime Minister's properties now and so it's almost like this 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.680 twelve years later Parliament actually in some way says less 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:53.040 property holdings than they did previously, And there was kind 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:58.520 of there wasn't anyone whose property holdings kind of would 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.720 reach into that sort of mega which certainly there's some 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:06.440 quite wealthy people then, but you know there are there 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:07.280 are people in New. 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.520 Zealand who own considerably more than anyone in Parliament. 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.240 Thanks for joining us, Chris. 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:12.560 No. 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.800 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.760 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.880 at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.280 produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:36.040 our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:39.680 on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.760 in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.