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Speaker 1: To the bombshell announcement from the UK. Now a group

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Speaker 1: of experts are claiming that convicted British serial killer Lucy

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Speaker 1: Letbee didn't murder a single baby in her care. Fourteen

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Speaker 1: international experts have come together and authored a new report.

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Speaker 1: They concluded that these seventeen newborns let Bee was charged

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Speaker 1: with harming deteriorated due to natural causes or broader quote

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Speaker 1: bad medical care. The former nurse was found guilty by

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Speaker 1: a jury in twenty twenty three and given fifteen whole

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Speaker 1: life sentences. The report's going to be presented by her lawyers,

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Speaker 1: who want the case to be investigated as a potential

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Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice. Professor Jeff Chase from the University of

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Speaker 1: Canterbury was involved in this report and he's with me

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Speaker 1: this afternoon. Jeff, Hello, Hi, Hoiriott. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with me. First of all, how did you get involved

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Speaker 1: with this report?

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Speaker 2: I actually first heard about the lb case only in

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Speaker 2: April last year. Our reporter called me asking some questions

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Speaker 2: they were investigating in the UK, whether or not there

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Speaker 2: was even a story there. I knew nothing and it

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Speaker 2: went nowhere. At that time I got another call from

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Speaker 2: a BBC reporter and someone doing some modeling who felt

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Speaker 2: that something was wrong with this case last July, and

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Speaker 2: I got involved from there my reason or the reason

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Speaker 2: I should be involved, I suppose, so we do seem

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Speaker 2: to controlling model insulin kinetics and insulent action, how insulin

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Speaker 2: effects blood gluecose levels, and not only adults and for

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Speaker 2: the intensive care unit and managing blood glucos there, but

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Speaker 2: also in pre term neon ads. These are the really

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Speaker 2: tiny babies that are maybe eight hundred one thousand grands

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Speaker 2: a KI though or less in the neonatal unit here

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Speaker 2: at Crusher twomen's. And we've been safely dosing insulin, which

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Speaker 2: is actually quite difficult in these cohorts and is often

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Speaker 2: not done for that reason, for as a standard of

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Speaker 2: care with these models for something like sixteen seventeen years.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you are very qualified in this area. How

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Speaker 1: is it that you can because obviously this has been

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Speaker 1: before the courts, they have looked at all of the

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Speaker 1: evidence extensively. I mean, you're not there, you'll hear. So

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Speaker 1: what is it that you're looking at that you're saying

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Speaker 1: that that leads you to believe that these babies that

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Speaker 1: were murdered well, four of the seven that were murdered

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Speaker 1: that they weren't in fact.

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Speaker 2: So in this case the other babies that there were

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Speaker 2: over nine babies, but two of them were. The conviction

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Speaker 2: was based that they were dosed with insulin and the

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Speaker 2: nutrition bags, so a bag that hangs and provides daxtros

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Speaker 2: and libids and nutrition called tepee and or total parential nutrition,

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Speaker 2: but nutrition given to you straight into So that was

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Speaker 2: the convection was based that Lucy had spiked the bags

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Speaker 2: with insulin and that that caused the hype I've got

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Speaker 2: seeing of their experience. Babies did not die, but she

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Speaker 2: was convicted of as I understand, that attempted murder in

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Speaker 2: those two cases. One of those was in the press

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Speaker 2: release report today referred to as Baby six. In the

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Speaker 2: court cases are referred to as Baby FM Baby L.

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Speaker 2: So in that sense, these are separate from some of

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Speaker 2: the cases around air embolism and air injection to the

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Speaker 2: into stomach or the ETT tube the naso gastric tube. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: and in essence, they were based strictly on a very

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Speaker 2: high measurement from a lab test for insulin that was

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Speaker 2: higher than the level of what's called seat peptide. In

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Speaker 2: your body, and so that was the sole basis that

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Speaker 2: says that no. Normally, in a healthy person, if I

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Speaker 2: measured your blood right now, your insulin level will be

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Speaker 2: lower than your seapeptide level for a wide range of

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Speaker 2: physiological reasons about how insolince peptide are produced by the

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Speaker 2: body together but are used and cleared by the body

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Speaker 2: at different rates.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, you were saying she was convicted on insulin

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Speaker 1: rates in the baby's bodies, that it could actually be

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Speaker 1: naturally occurring.

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Speaker 2: In the short answer, yes, wow, they can occur by

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Speaker 2: other means. Particularly, there's an assumption in the interpretation of

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Speaker 2: the evidence based on what is normal. So I would

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Speaker 2: not expect that kind of measurement in you right now.

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Speaker 2: But in any kind of critical care setting, and particularly

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Speaker 2: with pre term neonates, most to all bets are off.

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Speaker 2: There are behaviors and trends, but they're not newly as

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Speaker 2: guaranteed as there would be if we both got together

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Speaker 2: and tested a healthy person.

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Speaker 1: So there's an argument to be made, and I could

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Speaker 1: understand that if it was one baby, but given there

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Speaker 1: are so many babies, you know, seven murders and six

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Speaker 1: attempted murders is what she was convicted for. You know,

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Speaker 1: is it common for a nurse to have that many cases?

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't know nurse murders, and these convictions are probably

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Speaker 2: an interesting field of a sociological study and their own right.

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Speaker 2: There are two other nurses either imprison or convicted in

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Speaker 2: the UK that I've heard about around the similar kinds

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Speaker 2: of cases with geriatrics. So one argument I guess would

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Speaker 2: be that this is quite common. It is easy to

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Speaker 2: find disparate data. So one thing to know about the

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Speaker 2: insulent cases was that there was a cluster of deaths

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Speaker 2: in this unit, and then they went looking to see

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Speaker 2: who was on duty at these times. After that, they

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Speaker 2: were looking for the records to see who else might

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Speaker 2: have been harmed. So they went looking for babies that

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Speaker 2: she had treated to see if there were measurements or

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Speaker 2: other things out of balance, as they were out of

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Speaker 2: their expectations. And that is how these two insulin babies

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Speaker 2: that I've been asked to look at along with somebody.

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Speaker 1: Else, that's when they cropped up. Jiff, thank you very

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Speaker 1: much for being with uscinating case. As you say. Jeff Chase,

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Speaker 1: who's a professor at the University of Canterbury and who

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Speaker 1: is part of the group of academics who have looked

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Speaker 1: at this case and come up with a report and

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Speaker 1: Lucy Letby, you will know the case from the UK.

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Speaker 1: Her lawyers are now trying to have this investigated as

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Speaker 1: a potential miscarriage of justice. For more from Heather Duplessy

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Speaker 1: Allen Drive. Listen live to news Talks. It'd be from

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