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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZB.

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Speaker 2: There's still no clarity in the ongoing saga of the

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Speaker 2: Silver Ferns and coach Dame Nolen Toda. Despite days of

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Speaker 2: mediation between the World Cup winning coach and Netball New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: there's still no decision over whether she'll be reinstated. You'll remember,

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Speaker 2: of course, Dave Nolen was stood down as coach. That

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Speaker 2: happened on the tenth of September, with Netburn New Zealand

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Speaker 2: citing issues in the team's high performance environment. That left

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Speaker 2: New Zealand to play South Africa in the Tiny Jamerson

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Speaker 2: Series under interim coaches Avett McCausland, Jury and Leanna Liota.

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Speaker 2: They did a good job. New Zealand won that series

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Speaker 2: three nil. Now though they have a much tougher assignment looming.

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Speaker 2: The Silver Ferns are due to go into camp on

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Speaker 2: Monday to prepare for the four test Constellation Cup series

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Speaker 2: against Australia. The first game in that four test series

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Speaker 2: is in Melbourne on Friday weeks so it is less

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Speaker 2: than two weeks away. Let's get you some insight into

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Speaker 2: the mediation process that is playing out here. Anthony Drake

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Speaker 2: is partner at leading law firm Taverndale and Partners. He

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Speaker 2: has more than twenty five years specialist experience in employment

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Speaker 2: law and is a nationally recognized expert in employment related

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Speaker 2: issues and disputes. Anthony, thanks for joining us to try

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Speaker 2: and give us some insight here. This seems to have

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Speaker 2: taken a long time. Is that normal in employment disputes.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a process that the parties need to go through,

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Speaker 3: of course, and clearly in this case there's a lot

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Speaker 3: more to be discussed. But at this point we actually

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Speaker 3: don't know what the issues are and I guess it's

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Speaker 3: not terribly helpful to speculate. Would be rather more helpful

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Speaker 3: of Netball New Zealand told us what the concerns are

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Speaker 3: and whether they can be worked through.

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Speaker 2: So it's your view then that they should have been

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Speaker 2: a bit more transparent and said, Okay, here are the

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Speaker 2: issues ABC, here's what we're working through. They're not duty

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Speaker 2: bound to do that, of course, but you think that

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Speaker 2: would have been helpful in this case.

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Speaker 3: I think we're talking about a national team and it's

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Speaker 3: a little different in these situations where you've got parties

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Speaker 3: that are in the public eye. Whilst there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of similarities with the corporate world, this is slightly difference

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Speaker 3: as a high performance environment. Both employees are both Dame

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Speaker 3: Nolen and the players and the public eye. And this

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Speaker 3: matter has gone on for quite some time now, so

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Speaker 3: it would be helpful to have some insight as to

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Speaker 3: what those concerns are.

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Speaker 2: The longer the discussions go on, there's a resolution in

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Speaker 2: your experience, less likely or more likely with a lengthy process.

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Speaker 3: Well, as I sort of saying that, there's a process

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Speaker 3: to work through, and clearly it's taking its time, and

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Speaker 3: it's just an indication of how difficult the situation has become.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's resolvable now, you know, I can't really speculate

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Speaker 3: on that. Hopefully it can be resolved to everybody's satisfaction.

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Speaker 2: How do you keep emotion out of employment disputes and

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Speaker 2: keep the discussions fact based.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't think you can. I don't think you

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Speaker 3: can keep emotions out. And as I sort of said,

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Speaker 3: this involves a game that's both the coach, the players,

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Speaker 3: the public love, and it's incredibly difficult. There are no

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Speaker 3: facts for which anybody can respond to at the moment

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Speaker 3: but you know that I don't just honestly don't think

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Speaker 3: we can keep those emotions out of this.

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Speaker 2: So what's the best way to navigate it? Then, Anthony, Now,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you've said in on mediations where emotions are

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Speaker 2: running high in an employment disputes, how do you how

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Speaker 2: do you take the take the fizz out of situations

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Speaker 2: like that? What's the what's the best way of doing that?

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Speaker 3: Generally a very calm approach to these sort of issues.

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Speaker 3: There's obviously a lot to talk about, and what we

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Speaker 3: have learned so far is there are different views from

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Speaker 3: the media. Karen Berger sort of said, well, everybody has

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Speaker 3: a different experience. We saw Grace Wecki speak on Saturday Night. Well,

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Speaker 3: she has a different experience to some of the others.

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Speaker 3: So these are complicated issues to navigate.

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Speaker 2: In the situation. The organization nep on New Zealand appoints

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Speaker 2: the coach, the coaches in charge of selecting the players,

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Speaker 2: but presumably the players are also employees of Netball New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: I guess a lot of people are asking Anthony, why

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Speaker 2: wouldn't Netball New Zealand just back their coach. She's the

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Speaker 2: one who they've appointed to run the high performance program.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're quite right, Jason Dame Noley is an employee,

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Speaker 3: the players are employees, and net new Netball New Zealand

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Speaker 3: has an obligation to resolve the problem, whatever that problem is,

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Speaker 3: and it needs to do that in an active and

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Speaker 3: constructive way so it can maintain those relationships. So, whether

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Speaker 3: that's to back the coach, whether it's to back the players,

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Speaker 3: they've got duties to both sides here to try and

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Speaker 3: resolve it.

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Speaker 2: In a situation like this, let's talk hypothetical here. Let's

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Speaker 2: say hypothetically, you know, one possible outcome here is that

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Speaker 2: Dave Nolin is exonerated and she's back as as head

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Speaker 2: coach of the Silver Ferns. Isn't that still an awkward

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Speaker 2: situation to navigate with her knowing that there are, you know,

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Speaker 2: potentially members of the team who didn't want her to

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Speaker 2: be coached.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there's an enormous problem here. It's disruptive to the environment,

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Speaker 3: it's disruptive to the culture of the team. So there's

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Speaker 3: an enormous amount of work to be done. So they

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Speaker 3: both have all common goals going forward.

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Speaker 2: How common is finding a solution in situations like that

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Speaker 2: that allows parties who have been in dispute to continue

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Speaker 2: working together and working harmoniously together.

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Speaker 3: In my experience, it's incredibly difficult and rare.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, So I mean, I know we can't talk

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Speaker 2: specifics here, Anthony, but I mean, what's your what? What?

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Speaker 2: What should we think about all this? Should we expect

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Speaker 2: Dane Noline to come back, should we expect there'll be

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Speaker 2: some clunkiness here?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 2: What is your best guess as to what's going to

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Speaker 2: play out here?

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's helpful for me to speculate on

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Speaker 3: there that this. Obviously discussions are on going between the cardis,

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Speaker 3: so it's very difficult to say.

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Speaker 2: And and this could still drag on for a bit.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've got we've got a format series coming

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Speaker 2: up in less than two weeks. It doesn't feel as

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Speaker 2: though this is going to be resolved. We're here at

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Speaker 2: the weekend, and so clearly I guess they take a

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Speaker 2: break over the weekend, they start again on Monday. The

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Speaker 2: teams meant to be selected on Monday, So you know,

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Speaker 2: can these things drag on? Could this drag on for

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Speaker 2: more days? For weeks?

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Speaker 3: Even yes my experience, they sometimes do regrettably there's no

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Speaker 3: easy solution here.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's it's something that continues to I guess hog

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Speaker 2: the headlines when really all we want to be doing

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Speaker 2: is netwall fans is watching the Silver Ferns play Australia, Anthony,

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Speaker 2: anything else to add that might have a bit of

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Speaker 2: context or a bit of clarity to our listeners as

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Speaker 2: we search for some shred of hope here.

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Speaker 3: Well, as I sort of said, I think it might

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Speaker 3: be helpful for Netball New Zealand to come out and

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Speaker 3: say what the concerns are and whether they think that

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Speaker 3: they can be worked through.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've asked them a number of times. They don't

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Speaker 2: seem particularly keen on doing that. Anthony, thank you for

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Speaker 2: your time and expertise this afternoon. I guess we just

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Speaker 2: wait and see what plays out here. Appreciate you lending

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Speaker 2: us your expertise today.

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Speaker 3: And good luck to the team.

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Speaker 2: Yep, good luck, good luck to the team. Indeed, Anthony,

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Speaker 2: in more ways than one, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Anthony Drake, partner at leading law firm Taverndale and Partners,

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Speaker 2: with twenty five years plus of specialist experience in employment law.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Pine. Listen live

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