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Speaker 1: We need to talk about the gender pay gap, and no,

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Speaker 1: not in the way that you think we're about to

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Speaker 1: talk about the gender pay gap. In a surprise to us,

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Speaker 1: the latest survey of New Zealand company directors shows that

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Speaker 1: female directors are in fact earning more than their male counterparts.

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Speaker 1: Kathy Hendry is Strategic pays Managing Director. They've done the

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Speaker 1: survey and is with us. Now, Hey, Kathy, hi, there

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Speaker 1: were you surprised by this?

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Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, we were surprised.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we're earning more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it was off. It does

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Speaker 2: off a backdrop of sort of quite an underrepresentation, so

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Speaker 2: you know, but it's good to see in the private

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Speaker 2: sector at least that you know, they are earning bit more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was kind of surprised that at least one

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Speaker 1: of the categories, female non executive directors rather than chairs

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Speaker 1: obviously earned seventeen percent more in their fees. How on

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Speaker 1: is what's going on?

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Speaker 2: Right? Well, so when we actually looked at it, it's

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Speaker 2: to do with where the which sort of boards the

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Speaker 2: woman as sent on. So what we're seeing it's quite

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Speaker 2: a small sample around just sort of over three hundred

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Speaker 2: or three hundred ninety two directorships, And what we're seeing

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Speaker 2: is that while the women aren't making up much of

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Speaker 2: a much of the sample, they're sitting on the large

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Speaker 2: more likely to be sitting on the large listed orcs,

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Speaker 2: and that they pay a lot more. And so that's

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Speaker 2: actually what's driving those gaps that we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, is this actually what we want? Like do

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Speaker 1: we actually want do we want women to be paid

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Speaker 1: significantly more than men or do we actually want it

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Speaker 1: to end up kind of roughly the same?

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Speaker 2: Well, they're going to be a game, Yeah, we do.

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Speaker 2: We want them We want fear paid, don't. We want

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Speaker 2: to see male and females being paid fairly for the

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Speaker 2: work we're doing. And so I think in this instance, though,

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Speaker 2: what we're seeing is when they're sitting on the board

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Speaker 2: with their male counterparts are getting paid the same. But

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Speaker 2: it's more when you look across the whole sampole of

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Speaker 2: directors and where the women are sitting compared to the

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Speaker 2: whole sampole of directors across board businesses, that's when we've

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Speaker 2: seen that gap, right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, But yeah, so I mean this just proves, doesn't

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Speaker 1: this show up the fact that we are really not

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Speaker 1: comparing apples with apples in whether we're whether we're comparing

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Speaker 1: it in order to show that women are being paid more,

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Speaker 1: or comparing it to show that women are being paid

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Speaker 1: less stats Telfords, don't they.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I know, I mean I don't think so. You know,

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Speaker 2: when we actually look at and when you look at

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Speaker 2: pay gaps across we've got a really large database and

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Speaker 2: when we look we can see, you know, similar size roles,

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Speaker 2: and we can see gaps between male and female pay

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Speaker 2: there as well. So when you are looking apples for apples, yes,

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Speaker 2: the big headlines in this instance, we're looking across the

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Speaker 2: whole sample. But you know, and so that that's going

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Speaker 2: to be giving us more dramatic gap, which is, you know,

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Speaker 2: which is newsworthy. But you know, when you actually start

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Speaker 2: breaking it down and looking at the sun pools, you

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Speaker 2: know you're still seeing time and time again that women

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Speaker 2: are getting paid less than their male counterparts.

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Speaker 1: But aren't these women on these listed companies being paid

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Speaker 1: the same as their male counterparts on the listed companies?

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Speaker 2: Yes they are, Yes, are not.

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Speaker 1: Being paid the same.

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Speaker 2: So the woman that so, I suppose the first question

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Speaker 2: is why we only seek such a really small proportion

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Speaker 2: of women getting into these larger listed orcs. Why you know,

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Speaker 2: why are we only seeing sort of one or two

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Speaker 2: represented on large listed boards versus their male counterparts when

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Speaker 2: we've got you know, equal representation of women and men

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Speaker 2: and and you know being born and entering into the

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Speaker 2: workforce and also women being are actually in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: are actually often more more likely to be better educated.

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Speaker 1: Than what do you think it is?

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Speaker 2: I think I think the issue is is that we're

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Speaker 2: just not seeing the same representation at senior levels either. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so it's what it's flowing through.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's still the case, Kathy, or is it changing?

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Speaker 2: That's changing? It is changing. Yeah, it's brilliant to say.

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Speaker 2: I mean even in the director's sample, like back in

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, you know, women only made up fourteen percent

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Speaker 2: of chairs in the sample and now they're up at

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Speaker 2: twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: Well, can I answer that question for you?

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Speaker 2: Then?

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Speaker 1: Maybe is it possible that the reason that we have

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Speaker 1: such such small representation of women on these these very

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Speaker 1: very in these very very senior levels on boards is

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Speaker 1: because we haven't for a long time seen women represented

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Speaker 1: at the executive levels of businesses, right, and so you

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Speaker 1: have to give women some years to get some experience

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Speaker 1: there in order to then feed through to the board level.

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Speaker 1: So it will happen. We just need to give it

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Speaker 1: a bit of till.

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Speaker 2: It will happen. Corrects correct, Yeah, absolutely, And I mean

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Speaker 2: the positives here is that you're seeing when they are

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Speaker 2: getting on the boards, they are getting into these larger

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Speaker 2: listed orcs too, which is great.

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Speaker 1: Kathy, Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: Kathy hen managing director at Strategic Page.

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