WEBVTT - Janet Xuccoa: The basics of trusts 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.801 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB. 0:00:10.281 --> 0:00:13.121 And welcome back to the show. I'm Tim Beverage. This 0:00:13.281 --> 0:00:15.121 is the Weekend Collective. By the way, if you missed her, 0:00:15.161 --> 0:00:19.641 the conversation with Greg Pain about gadget's quite fascinating actually 0:00:19.801 --> 0:00:23.281 because I thought that the purest form of exercise without 0:00:23.321 --> 0:00:24.841 a gadget. But I almost feel I need to go 0:00:24.881 --> 0:00:27.561 shopping now. But you can check any of the previous 0:00:27.601 --> 0:00:29.521 hours that any of the hours you've missed on the 0:00:29.521 --> 0:00:31.841 show by looking for our podcast. Just look for the 0:00:31.841 --> 0:00:35.561 Weekend Collective on iHeartRadio or wherever you podcasts, and you 0:00:35.561 --> 0:00:37.521 can even go to the News Talk ZB website. But 0:00:37.641 --> 0:00:40.161 now it has time for smart money. And we've been 0:00:40.241 --> 0:00:42.561 sort of looking at doing this for a while, but 0:00:43.641 --> 0:00:46.161 the issue of trusts often they've come up, and I've 0:00:46.161 --> 0:00:48.201 sort of tried to rely on my very distant memory 0:00:48.201 --> 0:00:52.161 on trust law, which is pretty pretty pathetic. So if 0:00:52.161 --> 0:00:55.521 you've got any questions on trusts, this is the hour 0:00:55.641 --> 0:00:58.481 to give us a call. And joining me is She 0:00:58.641 --> 0:01:00.921 is the managing director of the New Zealand Family Trust 0:01:01.001 --> 0:01:04.041 Services and I've been trying to pronounce her name and 0:01:04.121 --> 0:01:06.761 all sorts of exotic ways and I got close. But 0:01:07.601 --> 0:01:09.521 Janet Zukoa, Hello, how. 0:01:09.401 --> 0:01:10.481 Are you hello there? 0:01:11.521 --> 0:01:14.081 Yes, it's because it's your name is spelled z u 0:01:14.201 --> 0:01:17.441 ccoa and I was sure it had to be a 0:01:17.961 --> 0:01:20.761 shower or something in there. But anyways, Zaka, So you're 0:01:20.841 --> 0:01:24.681 managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services. What is 0:01:24.721 --> 0:01:25.521 that organization? 0:01:25.801 --> 0:01:29.641 Ah? Well, that organization is really New Zealand as Trustee 0:01:29.681 --> 0:01:32.481 of Choice, so it acts as an independent trustee for 0:01:32.521 --> 0:01:35.161 many trusts in New Zealand and it carries out all 0:01:35.201 --> 0:01:37.521 of the administration compliance work that we have to do 0:01:37.641 --> 0:01:38.641 now for trusts. 0:01:39.001 --> 0:01:43.441 And how did you Okay, I'm guessing being the managing director, 0:01:43.961 --> 0:01:46.121 you've been at the game a little while. How did 0:01:46.161 --> 0:01:48.361 you get into trust work in the first place? 0:01:48.561 --> 0:01:50.201 Well, if I if I tell you how many years 0:01:50.241 --> 0:01:52.561 I've been out, no, we wade away, but we won't 0:01:52.601 --> 0:01:57.561 be doing that but definitely definitely for for several decades. 0:01:58.201 --> 0:02:01.321 Yeah, So what made you get interested in the trust 0:02:01.361 --> 0:02:01.841 side of things? 0:02:01.921 --> 0:02:04.121 Well, I was a little like you. I liked equity 0:02:04.321 --> 0:02:07.521 at law school. I enjoyed equity and I do believe 0:02:07.761 --> 0:02:12.121 in really protecting wealth and not just for the sake 0:02:12.201 --> 0:02:15.201 of building up assets. But when you have assets, you 0:02:15.521 --> 0:02:20.881 have choices and options, and when you satisfied your base 0:02:21.001 --> 0:02:23.921 level of living, you can help others if you've got assets. 0:02:24.161 --> 0:02:26.361 Yeah, and actually, when you mean protecting wealth, it's not 0:02:26.441 --> 0:02:30.281 about protecting huge wealth necessarily. It's just any anything you've accumulated, 0:02:30.361 --> 0:02:30.561 is it. 0:02:31.121 --> 0:02:33.201 Well, that's right. People think that you've got to be 0:02:33.361 --> 0:02:36.121 ultra wealthy to have trust, but that's not the case 0:02:36.121 --> 0:02:39.361 in New Zealand. Our spirit of entrepreneurship is well and 0:02:39.401 --> 0:02:41.201 surely alive. I mean New Zealand has made up of 0:02:41.281 --> 0:02:45.281 small and medium sized companies. They dot our landscape. And 0:02:45.321 --> 0:02:48.121 when you're in business, that comes with a risk. And 0:02:48.201 --> 0:02:51.681 so people that have built, you know, just to simply 0:02:51.681 --> 0:02:53.801 fail in the home, they don't want to put that 0:02:53.841 --> 0:02:55.841 on the line, and putting it in a trust can 0:02:55.841 --> 0:02:56.881 help protect. 0:02:56.481 --> 0:03:01.201 That because there are people who would see if you 0:03:01.241 --> 0:03:05.441 are hired, not hiding, of course, but there an ethical 0:03:05.481 --> 0:03:08.361 dimension to trusts because there will always be a headline 0:03:08.401 --> 0:03:11.841 somewhere where someone has done some dodgy dealings, but most 0:03:11.881 --> 0:03:13.681 of their wealth has tied up in a family trust, 0:03:13.881 --> 0:03:16.121 which means that people who maybe have felt they've been 0:03:16.161 --> 0:03:19.881 hard done by can't get at it is there. I 0:03:19.881 --> 0:03:21.801 guess it doesn't mean matter, Yeah. 0:03:22.001 --> 0:03:25.801 Deep, devious, dishonest, there's all the words that come to mind, 0:03:25.801 --> 0:03:27.761 aren't they with when you're looking at trusts, And I 0:03:27.801 --> 0:03:30.401 think that's care of the likes of TV and books 0:03:30.401 --> 0:03:34.361 and Panama papers. But in New Zealand, in New Zealand 0:03:34.441 --> 0:03:38.961 in general, in Zealand in general, we have honest, hard 0:03:39.001 --> 0:03:42.001 working kiwis that are just trying to get ahead and 0:03:42.081 --> 0:03:45.441 protect what, protect what they've built up, and trusts to 0:03:45.601 --> 0:03:49.321 use as a great device for that in relation to assets, 0:03:49.321 --> 0:03:53.121 but not just against creditor claims, You've got relationship claims too. 0:03:54.241 --> 0:03:54.401 Oh. 0:03:54.521 --> 0:03:57.281 Actually, of course people if you are well. He's an 0:03:57.321 --> 0:04:01.641 example I guess would be if you were in another relationship, 0:04:01.761 --> 0:04:04.641 you've got children from your previous relationship and you don't 0:04:04.641 --> 0:04:06.881 want to relationship where you find that suddenly half your 0:04:06.881 --> 0:04:08.961 assets are gone to this new and you want to 0:04:08.961 --> 0:04:10.321 protect the assets for your kids. 0:04:10.721 --> 0:04:13.601 Well, So a lot of people are entering into even 0:04:13.641 --> 0:04:16.801 first relationships later on in life and they've built their 0:04:16.801 --> 0:04:20.041 careers and they've got some wealth behind them. Then you've 0:04:20.081 --> 0:04:23.281 got the second second types of relationships where they've been 0:04:23.321 --> 0:04:26.321 through a divorce or or a split on a de 0:04:26.361 --> 0:04:28.841 facto and they want to bring you know, they're going 0:04:28.841 --> 0:04:31.601 to bring assets with them to that relationship and they're 0:04:31.641 --> 0:04:35.161 happy to share what they've built up with that new person, 0:04:35.321 --> 0:04:38.121 but they want to ring fence the assets that they 0:04:38.201 --> 0:04:41.201 bring into the relationship for themselves and their and their children. 0:04:41.721 --> 0:04:44.641 And trust along with a good property relationship agreement and 0:04:44.881 --> 0:04:45.241 helps that. 0:04:45.441 --> 0:04:47.881 Do you actually do you need both? When you so, 0:04:48.001 --> 0:04:50.601 if you had you, if you had a family, if 0:04:50.601 --> 0:04:52.961 you had a trust to protect your assets. You're in 0:04:53.001 --> 0:04:55.081 a new relationship, do you need the property agreement or 0:04:55.161 --> 0:04:56.481 does your trust do all that for you? 0:04:56.601 --> 0:04:59.721 Well? I don't. I don't necessarily think that a trust 0:05:00.041 --> 0:05:03.241 solely will do the job. Because we've got New Zealand 0:05:03.241 --> 0:05:05.681 courts can see through trusts and they can you know 0:05:05.721 --> 0:05:08.601 that they can make judgments to break trusts if they 0:05:08.641 --> 0:05:10.081 if they think that that's necessary. 0:05:10.201 --> 0:05:13.241 And when you say see through, the common understanding is 0:05:13.241 --> 0:05:15.841 see through as I know what you're doing here. But 0:05:15.881 --> 0:05:18.081 when you say c through, you mean like look through 0:05:18.081 --> 0:05:20.241 in terms of they can say I don't care what 0:05:20.321 --> 0:05:22.521 wall you've set up here, I'm knocking it down. 0:05:22.641 --> 0:05:24.601 Yeah, I'm knocking down I'm going to come through and 0:05:24.601 --> 0:05:27.081 take the assets, and I'm going to divide the assets 0:05:27.521 --> 0:05:30.121 in an appropriate way that they that they feel is 0:05:30.321 --> 0:05:35.161 just so properly relationship agreements. I think every lawyer would 0:05:35.401 --> 0:05:39.281 say properly relationship agreement as a keystone to protecting health 0:05:39.361 --> 0:05:42.241 in the first instance. And then a trust or two helps. 0:05:42.601 --> 0:05:48.601 Yeah, so who so who needs No I'm trying to put, 0:05:49.241 --> 0:05:52.601 at what stage do you think people should consider having 0:05:52.641 --> 0:05:55.521 a trust? Because and how many trusts are there actually 0:05:55.561 --> 0:05:57.401 in New Zealand you consider we've got a population of 0:05:57.441 --> 0:05:58.281 five million people. 0:05:58.401 --> 0:06:01.481 We don't actually have a register of trusts in New Zealand. 0:06:01.561 --> 0:06:03.561 We do, of course when the government does you know, 0:06:03.641 --> 0:06:06.721 statistics every sort of is it three years? That is statistics? 0:06:07.081 --> 0:06:08.361 The census is every five years? 0:06:08.641 --> 0:06:10.881 Five years? Okay, okay, maybe every five years then. 0:06:11.121 --> 0:06:12.561 Four I have to google that. 0:06:12.641 --> 0:06:16.201 Yeah, whenever they do that. Whenever they do that that activity, 0:06:16.921 --> 0:06:20.921 trusts do come up there. Yeah, but they and so 0:06:20.921 --> 0:06:24.321 so you do see trusts and numbers like three hundred thousand, 0:06:24.481 --> 0:06:27.281 five hundred thousand all banded around. But we don't actually 0:06:27.321 --> 0:06:30.361 have a register in New Zealand of trusts. It's been 0:06:30.441 --> 0:06:33.281 mooted every now and again you hear some grumbles about it, 0:06:33.321 --> 0:06:35.321 but hasn't come out yet, so we don't know the 0:06:35.361 --> 0:06:36.041 exact number. 0:06:36.881 --> 0:06:39.081 Are the what are the biggest mistakes? By the way, 0:06:39.121 --> 0:06:41.201 it is every five years the census, my producers, just 0:06:41.281 --> 0:06:44.921 right now? What are the Can you set up your 0:06:44.961 --> 0:06:46.121 own trust? Can you? 0:06:46.561 --> 0:06:49.081 Literally it would be very difficult to set up your 0:06:49.121 --> 0:06:53.041 own trusts and unwise yeah, and definitely imprudent. Yeah, you 0:06:53.561 --> 0:06:56.241 want to want a lawyer to set up a trust, 0:06:56.321 --> 0:06:58.961 someone who actually understands the law and knows what they're doing. 0:06:59.001 --> 0:07:02.081 Because trust have longevity, I mean under around you and 0:07:02.121 --> 0:07:05.481 you act the trusts at twenty nineteen, one hundred and 0:07:05.521 --> 0:07:08.081 twenty five years those trusts live now. Of course you 0:07:08.121 --> 0:07:10.161 can bring them for which you can invest them earlier 0:07:10.241 --> 0:07:13.201 than that. But trusts are for a long duration. They're 0:07:13.201 --> 0:07:15.081 not just for today and next year. 0:07:15.281 --> 0:07:16.761 So how is there a limit to how long a 0:07:16.801 --> 0:07:17.481 trust can last? 0:07:17.641 --> 0:07:19.441 It used to be eighty years, now it's one hundred 0:07:19.441 --> 0:07:20.001 and twenty five. 0:07:21.121 --> 0:07:22.401 How do they come up with that number? 0:07:23.001 --> 0:07:24.721 Don't know, you'd have to ask the Low Commission that. 0:07:24.761 --> 0:07:27.001 But if you think it through, it does make sense 0:07:27.161 --> 0:07:31.161 because you would have this generation the parents say, and 0:07:31.201 --> 0:07:33.641 then the children, yeah, and then maybe the grand children 0:07:33.721 --> 0:07:34.761 and then the grand children. 0:07:34.561 --> 0:07:35.721 Depending on how late they have. 0:07:35.881 --> 0:07:38.281 Absolutely, so you can see that a trust could be 0:07:38.361 --> 0:07:42.201 for three or more generations, and that would that's I 0:07:42.201 --> 0:07:44.441 suppose what they were thinking about in the back of 0:07:44.481 --> 0:07:46.521 their minds when they chose one hundred and twenty five years. 0:07:46.681 --> 0:07:51.521 So legally, when you set up a trust, the assets 0:07:52.361 --> 0:07:54.281 I'm trying to remember everything and I'll get it wrong, 0:07:54.361 --> 0:07:57.401 but they belong that the trustees actually become the legal 0:07:57.441 --> 0:07:59.721 owners of whatever you put in the trust. 0:07:59.841 --> 0:08:03.041 Yeah, so have we have some positions in the trust 0:08:03.121 --> 0:08:05.321 and well, so first off, the people that say up 0:08:05.321 --> 0:08:09.121 the trust, they're called the settlers, and then you have 0:08:09.201 --> 0:08:13.601 people that appoint trustees and the tire trustees and they're 0:08:13.641 --> 0:08:17.521 called the appointurs. And then we have the trustees. They're 0:08:17.561 --> 0:08:20.481 the people the charge was managing the assets for the 0:08:20.481 --> 0:08:23.881 benefit of the beneficiaries, and they're the people that benefit 0:08:24.441 --> 0:08:27.281 from the trust. So I always I liken it in 0:08:27.361 --> 0:08:30.041 my mind too. I don't know a bit like a 0:08:30.081 --> 0:08:34.001 cargo ship. You've got you've got the captain of the ship, okay, 0:08:34.001 --> 0:08:36.201 and then you've got all the passengers, and then you've 0:08:36.241 --> 0:08:38.081 got all the assets. The cargo is sitting in the 0:08:38.081 --> 0:08:38.641 cargo holt. 0:08:39.361 --> 0:08:42.001 I think, what's the rules around who can be a trust? 0:08:42.321 --> 0:08:45.481 And if you are trying to protect your own assets 0:08:45.481 --> 0:08:47.641 for you and your family, how does it work with 0:08:48.321 --> 0:08:51.361 you establishing a trust where you are the beneficiary? 0:08:51.481 --> 0:08:53.761 Yeah, you went all those hats, aren't you. You're like 0:08:53.841 --> 0:08:56.201 the settler, you're setting it up. You're the appointeror who 0:08:56.201 --> 0:08:59.161 has the ability to hire and fire trustees. You're the 0:08:59.201 --> 0:09:01.601 trustee who's meant to be looking after the assets, and 0:09:01.641 --> 0:09:04.401 then you're one of the beneficiaries and you can't. That 0:09:04.481 --> 0:09:06.681 doesn't look it, does it? Yeah? I know, and it 0:09:06.761 --> 0:09:08.921 is possible, and in fact it does happen. That is 0:09:08.921 --> 0:09:11.561 how most of our discretionary family trusts are set up 0:09:11.561 --> 0:09:13.961 in New Zealand. And then we run into all sorts 0:09:13.961 --> 0:09:17.801 of complications there because there are rules about self benefiting 0:09:17.921 --> 0:09:21.361 and being prudent too, making the right decisions for the beneficiaries. 0:09:21.401 --> 0:09:24.721 And I suppose if you're challenged, it's quite hard to say, well, 0:09:24.841 --> 0:09:27.761 I've made a complete independent decision. I haven't thought about 0:09:28.201 --> 0:09:30.721 haven't thought about myself at all. When you're in that 0:09:30.761 --> 0:09:34.161 position where you're holding all of the roles. And that's 0:09:34.201 --> 0:09:37.481 one of the reasons why independent trustees are are put 0:09:37.521 --> 0:09:40.521 into a trust arrangement because they bring some independence to 0:09:40.601 --> 0:09:41.561 some decision making. 0:09:41.761 --> 0:09:43.921 Does that mean if you are a trustee and a beneficiary, 0:09:44.121 --> 0:09:47.801 but they are also a couple of independent trustees, does 0:09:47.841 --> 0:09:50.041 that mean you might not be part of that decision 0:09:50.121 --> 0:09:51.921 or you would still just say, look, I've been part 0:09:51.921 --> 0:09:54.641 of a decision, but I'd supported by my independent trustees 0:09:54.761 --> 0:09:55.281 or something. 0:09:55.441 --> 0:09:59.361 Well, at lawd decision making is unanimous unless unless the 0:09:59.401 --> 0:10:02.721 trustees says otherwise, so they would always be part of 0:10:02.761 --> 0:10:04.641 the decision making. But you would like to think that 0:10:04.681 --> 0:10:08.601 the dependent trustee is well qualified and able to be 0:10:08.681 --> 0:10:11.801 smart enough to know what's best for the beneficiaries. 0:10:11.921 --> 0:10:14.481 So that's what you guys do. Is not New Zealand 0:10:14.521 --> 0:10:20.161 Family Trust Services, So you provide trustees. 0:10:20.241 --> 0:10:23.721 Yeah, first off, we will be an independent trustee for 0:10:23.801 --> 0:10:26.321 people's trusts. And you know, under the under the New 0:10:26.361 --> 0:10:31.321 Trust Act and and different pieces of legislation like for example, 0:10:31.361 --> 0:10:35.041 the Amendments to the Tax Administration Act and the Income 0:10:35.081 --> 0:10:39.561 Tax Act, trust trustees can really be held to high 0:10:39.841 --> 0:10:43.281 high standards of behavior. They can be really liable, can 0:10:43.321 --> 0:10:43.921 be real libil. 0:10:44.681 --> 0:10:46.721 If you're a trustee for a trust that has not 0:10:46.841 --> 0:10:49.881 followed its obligations through then Bengo, you're in the gun, 0:10:49.921 --> 0:10:50.201 aren't you. 0:10:50.321 --> 0:10:53.321 Yeah, absolutely real liability and in that your assets could 0:10:53.361 --> 0:10:58.961 be on the line. So independent trustees they're harder to 0:10:59.001 --> 0:11:01.881 find these days, and we have we've taken the position 0:11:02.041 --> 0:11:05.921 where we want to be independent trustees of clients trusts. 0:11:06.401 --> 0:11:09.601 However we do do the job right, we will make 0:11:09.641 --> 0:11:12.601 the trust, we'll ensure that it will be compliant. We 0:11:12.721 --> 0:11:15.961 know what I call settlers censure behavior where setlers just 0:11:16.001 --> 0:11:18.481 want to do whatever they want to do and and 0:11:18.681 --> 0:11:20.241 you know they're just going to have their way. 0:11:20.361 --> 0:11:23.081 Well that's I mean, that's ideally what you'd want anyway, 0:11:23.121 --> 0:11:25.521 if you're if you're if you are a bona fide 0:11:25.321 --> 0:11:28.521 a news person who's got some wealth that you want 0:11:28.521 --> 0:11:31.001 to protect and you want to look after it for 0:11:31.401 --> 0:11:34.961 your descendants. You don't want to be left to your 0:11:34.961 --> 0:11:38.441 own devices. You want someone like you, guys, because otherwise 0:11:38.481 --> 0:11:40.241 the courts are going to look through your trust before 0:11:40.281 --> 0:11:41.681 you know it and puffit's all gone. 0:11:41.881 --> 0:11:43.281 Well they are music to my years. 0:11:43.321 --> 0:11:45.681 But it's what's music, It's what I just said. 0:11:45.761 --> 0:11:48.961 Yeah, exactly, because it's quite surprising. It's quite clients are 0:11:48.961 --> 0:11:51.841 comments like, no, they're my assets. Some under us it's like, well, actually, 0:11:51.921 --> 0:11:54.001 hang on a minute, they belong to the trust, they're 0:11:54.001 --> 0:11:54.921 not your assets. 0:11:55.001 --> 0:11:57.881 In fact, hell, is that quite common that people think 0:11:57.961 --> 0:11:59.521 I'm going to get a trust and they come in 0:11:59.561 --> 0:12:02.161 and you're sitting there going, oh, we're going to have 0:12:02.161 --> 0:12:04.521 to have one of those conversations because this is not 0:12:04.561 --> 0:12:07.281 about hiding stuff away and just doing what you want 0:12:07.321 --> 0:12:07.801 and avoid it. 0:12:08.121 --> 0:12:13.001 Yeah, it's called settler centric behavior, and there's been a 0:12:13.001 --> 0:12:15.641 lot of it that's gone on. And of course that's 0:12:15.721 --> 0:12:18.081 happened in the past because there hasn't really been a 0:12:18.121 --> 0:12:20.801 lot of scrutiny on trustees. But now under that new 0:12:20.841 --> 0:12:25.281 piece of that new piece of legislation, trustees are subject 0:12:25.281 --> 0:12:28.841 to high levels of scrutiny. Beneficiaries can hold them to 0:12:28.961 --> 0:12:31.401 account much more easily than what they've ever done before. 0:12:31.961 --> 0:12:34.481 And so you'll find a lot of independent trustees who 0:12:34.521 --> 0:12:39.121 have been fairly passive, who haven't been who haven't wanted 0:12:39.161 --> 0:12:41.801 to or haven't demanded to look at balance sheets every 0:12:41.841 --> 0:12:44.241 year and sit down and hold annual trusting meetings, who 0:12:44.241 --> 0:12:46.641 haven't don all of that they want to actually get 0:12:47.041 --> 0:12:49.081 out of the job, out of the role, and so 0:12:50.041 --> 0:12:52.481 trust to look around for an independent trustee. And I 0:12:52.481 --> 0:12:54.521 guess that's where we come in. Our company comes in. 0:12:54.441 --> 0:12:57.281 Because obviously, if you've got let's say you've got a 0:12:57.321 --> 0:13:00.361 significant level of wealth, like many millions of dollars, then 0:13:01.001 --> 0:13:04.561 that level of the level of asset sort of wealth, 0:13:05.961 --> 0:13:09.521 you'd be able to have trustees where you obviously there's 0:13:09.561 --> 0:13:13.041 time is money, and you could have a more complex 0:13:13.041 --> 0:13:16.441 trust where you would expect the the the trustees in 0:13:16.481 --> 0:13:19.361 your role to be hands on a lot of the time, 0:13:19.401 --> 0:13:22.481 whereas for many people they would just want a fairly 0:13:22.561 --> 0:13:26.041 simple arrangement where the trustee I mean, where am I going? 0:13:26.081 --> 0:13:27.121 Where am I going with? Yes? 0:13:27.201 --> 0:13:29.281 Where you're going with that is like, well, if it's 0:13:29.361 --> 0:13:32.081 just if the if the trust just holds the home 0:13:32.201 --> 0:13:35.481 and maybe a family badge, Yeah, and then they have 0:13:35.521 --> 0:13:38.561 an independent trustee sitting alongside them. Mister and missus Smith 0:13:38.561 --> 0:13:40.681 are the independent trustee sitting alongside them. That's going to 0:13:40.721 --> 0:13:43.281 involve lots of costs. That's probably where you're going, mate. 0:13:43.361 --> 0:13:46.361 I'm asking how you can avoid it being something where 0:13:46.401 --> 0:13:48.601 it's you've got someone who's on the on the clock, 0:13:48.761 --> 0:13:50.161 you know, several months. 0:13:49.881 --> 0:13:53.481 Of the year, Well it would be it'd be everybother 0:13:53.601 --> 0:13:56.281 the year because of independent trustees. Trustees, it's there all 0:13:56.321 --> 0:13:59.361 the time, but they only they probably only access them 0:13:59.401 --> 0:14:02.561 in a situation where there's pacificst that's like the family 0:14:02.601 --> 0:14:04.521 home and a back probably only access them a couple 0:14:04.561 --> 0:14:07.081 of times the year. And I don't think there is 0:14:07.121 --> 0:14:10.681 any way to avoid the cast good professional trustees chart. 0:14:11.161 --> 0:14:11.241 No. 0:14:11.401 --> 0:14:13.081 I guess what I mean is there would be trusts 0:14:13.161 --> 0:14:15.081 where the job of the trustee is going to be 0:14:15.081 --> 0:14:17.321 more complex and more expensive. Whereas if you've got a 0:14:17.361 --> 0:14:19.401 family batch and the family home and you shove it 0:14:19.481 --> 0:14:22.801 in a trust. Yes, intuitively, that tells me that you're 0:14:22.801 --> 0:14:26.281 not really going to have a huge amount of trust expenses, 0:14:26.521 --> 0:14:27.601 would you, I don't know how. 0:14:27.601 --> 0:14:29.441 Well you would. You still need to pay for the 0:14:29.441 --> 0:14:32.161 independent trustee to be there, and we do take we 0:14:32.321 --> 0:14:35.921 take insurance policies that a fair whack. We still need 0:14:35.961 --> 0:14:39.961 to spend time meeting the trustees and considering the beneficiaries 0:14:40.041 --> 0:14:42.761 and reviewing the assets. So you've still got to have 0:14:42.801 --> 0:14:46.281 an annual trustee meeting. You know, you still got to 0:14:46.601 --> 0:14:49.161 have your eye over those trust assets. The law doesn't 0:14:49.161 --> 0:14:52.881 distinguish between assets that are only worth I don't know, 0:14:52.921 --> 0:14:56.201 half a million tire assets worth gazillions of dollars. It's 0:14:56.241 --> 0:14:57.081 the law, is the law? 0:14:57.321 --> 0:15:00.721 Yeah? Yeah, okay. Look, if you've got any questions on 0:15:00.841 --> 0:15:05.041 trusts and you're or you're thinking maybe do I need one? 0:15:05.041 --> 0:15:06.641 And now you're listening to this and you're thinking, you've 0:15:06.641 --> 0:15:09.081 got a small business and with the way things are, 0:15:09.121 --> 0:15:12.401 maybe you need to protect some assets. Any questions you've got, 0:15:12.441 --> 0:15:13.921 will have a crack at it. Well, I won't have 0:15:13.961 --> 0:15:17.441 a crack at answering them, Janet will. And by the way, 0:15:17.801 --> 0:15:20.281 you have you've given me a copy of the You've 0:15:20.321 --> 0:15:22.681 written a book which actually is not out yet, Janet, 0:15:22.721 --> 0:15:23.121 Is that right? 0:15:23.361 --> 0:15:27.321 No, Well, it's nationwide book distributors. They have got that 0:15:27.361 --> 0:15:30.081 book now and they will be visiting I would think 0:15:30.201 --> 0:15:33.481 most of the bookshops in New Zealand in the next 0:15:33.841 --> 0:15:35.361 in the next month or so. I did have a 0:15:35.361 --> 0:15:38.641 call from from a chain of bookshops last week who'd 0:15:38.681 --> 0:15:40.641 heard that the book was available, and I just pushed 0:15:40.681 --> 0:15:44.041 them to nationwide book distributors, who will good on movies. 0:15:44.161 --> 0:15:47.361 And it's called trusts one two three. But you can't 0:15:47.401 --> 0:15:50.921 quite get it yet. Soon okay, I eight hundred eighty 0:15:50.961 --> 0:15:53.521 ten eighty will take your texts as well. But what 0:15:53.841 --> 0:15:56.241 any questions you've got around protecting your assets and trusts? 0:15:56.561 --> 0:15:57.841 Then we'd love to hear from you on I eight 0:15:57.841 --> 0:15:59.881 one hundred eighty ten and eighty text nine two nine two. 0:16:00.161 --> 0:16:03.881 It's twenty three past five News Talk zed B. It's 0:16:03.881 --> 0:16:06.361 welcome back to the show. This is the weekend collective 0:16:06.441 --> 0:16:08.121 Smart Money and we're doing a bit of a special 0:16:08.161 --> 0:16:10.281 talking about trust. If you've got any questions, we'd love 0:16:10.321 --> 0:16:11.761 to hear from you on eight hundred and eighty ten 0:16:11.761 --> 0:16:14.401 and eighty even if you are the beneficiary of a 0:16:14.401 --> 0:16:16.401 trust or you want to know if there's some way 0:16:16.441 --> 0:16:20.801 you can actually get your hands on. Actually my guest 0:16:21.001 --> 0:16:24.921 is Janet Zukoa and she is the managing director of 0:16:24.961 --> 0:16:30.001 New Zealand Family Trust Services. Janet, if you are a trustee, 0:16:30.161 --> 0:16:33.001 say there's a couple of you and you are beneficiaries 0:16:33.001 --> 0:16:37.001 of a trust, you can you if you both agree, 0:16:37.361 --> 0:16:39.681 you can just get you can? Can you dissolve the 0:16:39.721 --> 0:16:44.281 trust if you are the only beneficiaries? How on a second, sorry, 0:16:44.281 --> 0:16:45.961 I'll just set your microphone. They're sorry about that. 0:16:46.321 --> 0:16:48.601 First, or if you would have to be a beneficiary, 0:16:48.681 --> 0:16:51.841 So that's really important, and the beneficiaries have to be 0:16:51.881 --> 0:16:55.841 certain everybody. We have to know who all the beneficiaries are. 0:16:56.521 --> 0:16:58.481 So if it was certain that it was just the 0:16:58.521 --> 0:17:00.801 two of you as beneficiary. 0:17:00.401 --> 0:17:03.241 Or three or four but whoever, well, if. 0:17:02.841 --> 0:17:06.281 It's really certain who the beneficiaries are and the classes 0:17:06.281 --> 0:17:10.041 are closed it's just them, it's not future children or grandchildren, 0:17:10.081 --> 0:17:12.601 that's sort of thing, then yes, they can all mind 0:17:12.641 --> 0:17:14.801 together and they can agree to one the trust to 0:17:14.801 --> 0:17:15.161 an end. 0:17:15.401 --> 0:17:18.201 Because the example would be, I guess and your parents 0:17:18.281 --> 0:17:20.201 or your grandparents have set up a trust and there's 0:17:20.241 --> 0:17:24.841 a maybe there's just there's three or four grandchildren, and 0:17:25.241 --> 0:17:27.481 everyone would think that you have to sort of just 0:17:28.601 --> 0:17:31.401 receive and come from the trust according to the terms 0:17:31.441 --> 0:17:33.401 of it. But if you're all together and you go, 0:17:33.441 --> 0:17:35.121 hang on a minute, do we all want to just 0:17:35.761 --> 0:17:37.721 get hold of the assets and sell it and split 0:17:37.761 --> 0:17:39.881 them up? You can as long as you all agree. 0:17:40.321 --> 0:17:42.721 You've got to all agree. But a lot of the 0:17:42.761 --> 0:17:45.321 time when a trust is brought to an end, the 0:17:45.601 --> 0:17:49.281 assets moved from trust to trust. So let's say it's 0:17:49.321 --> 0:17:53.321 two beneficiaries and the parents have died, and the two 0:17:53.321 --> 0:17:57.641 beneficiaries now want the assets. The assets can be divided 0:17:57.841 --> 0:18:00.241 equally and then to a new trust set up, and 0:18:00.281 --> 0:18:03.361 then they move from trust to trust for the beneficiaries. 0:18:03.401 --> 0:18:05.721 And you might do that because the beneficial have lists 0:18:05.761 --> 0:18:06.281 of their own. 0:18:06.441 --> 0:18:08.561 Oh so they just want to have their own They 0:18:08.561 --> 0:18:10.561 want to split it up, but they're like, look, I 0:18:10.641 --> 0:18:13.281 still want to protect my assets absolutely, and so is 0:18:13.321 --> 0:18:14.001 that quite common? 0:18:14.241 --> 0:18:17.521 Very common? And so they may have business with themselves, 0:18:17.601 --> 0:18:19.561 they have a relationship risk. 0:18:20.681 --> 0:18:22.961 How would it work? Say, actually, I'm just coming out 0:18:22.961 --> 0:18:26.521 with some scenarios here to if say someone set up 0:18:26.521 --> 0:18:30.081 a trust and let's say grandma and granddad and grandma 0:18:30.161 --> 0:18:34.041 and granddad have passed on, and the trust is for 0:18:35.721 --> 0:18:40.961 the kids, and ultimately when those kids are gone, their grandchildren. 0:18:42.601 --> 0:18:46.481 If for the time being the trust is just in 0:18:46.721 --> 0:18:51.441 the favor of the first generation, do they do all 0:18:51.481 --> 0:18:53.601 the grandchildren have to agree at all? Or can the 0:18:53.761 --> 0:18:55.441 you know, I forget you know how things get passed 0:18:55.481 --> 0:18:59.401 down through the generation. So those, once those potential beneficiaries 0:18:59.401 --> 0:19:01.641 are alive, they all have to agree. Whether they be 0:19:01.881 --> 0:19:04.121 the first generation or the second generation or the third 0:19:04.121 --> 0:19:04.641