WEBVTT - Reissue: Surging violence, record numbers: What’s driving the prison system 'crisis' 0:00:19.059 --> 0:00:22.139 Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 0:00:22.379 --> 0:00:25.259 We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 0:00:25.579 --> 0:00:28.699 we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 0:00:28.739 --> 0:00:32.019 twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 0:00:32.138 --> 0:00:34.619 Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 0:00:34.659 --> 0:00:44.059 with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kiyota, I'm 0:00:44.138 --> 0:00:47.539 Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily 0:00:47.659 --> 0:00:55.179 podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The Corrections Association 0:00:55.419 --> 0:01:00.779 says New Zealand's prisons are in crisis. Last year saw 0:01:01.019 --> 0:01:06.179 record breaking numbers of assaults on staff, almost double what 0:01:06.219 --> 0:01:09.339 they were just seven years ago. There were also more 0:01:09.378 --> 0:01:14.339 than fifteen hundred prisoner on prisoner attacks, the highest annual 0:01:14.419 --> 0:01:18.738 figure on record. All of this comes with overcrowding, tight 0:01:18.979 --> 0:01:23.219 budgets and a growing gang and meth problem. Today on 0:01:23.258 --> 0:01:26.619 the Front Page ends at Herald, Senior reporter Derek Chang 0:01:26.739 --> 0:01:32.978 is with us to dive into the numbers. So, Derek, 0:01:33.098 --> 0:01:37.659 when you began looking into Correction's latest prison assault data, 0:01:37.899 --> 0:01:39.059 what stood out to you? 0:01:39.779 --> 0:01:44.378 Well, the figures are the highest on record, and obviously 0:01:44.459 --> 0:01:49.939 the prison population fluctuates and the number of prison offices fluctuates. 0:01:50.019 --> 0:01:52.739 At the moment, the prison population is an all time high. 0:01:52.859 --> 0:01:57.739 It's just under teny nine hundred, and the last time 0:01:57.779 --> 0:02:02.619 it was more or less the same population number was 0:02:02.659 --> 0:02:06.859 back in March twenty eighteen. So it's interesting to compare 0:02:07.059 --> 0:02:10.419 the numbers. So I mean corrections keeps the starter. It's 0:02:10.619 --> 0:02:14.699 prisoner on prisoner assaults and prisoner on staff assaults. So 0:02:14.859 --> 0:02:18.339 in the last year, which is twenty four twenty five, 0:02:19.019 --> 0:02:22.899 were almost sixteen hundred prisoner prisoner assaults, and there were 0:02:23.739 --> 0:02:27.458 almost eleven hundred prisoner staff assaults. And if you compare 0:02:27.499 --> 0:02:30.338 that to the twenty seven eighteen year, which was when 0:02:30.379 --> 0:02:33.538 the prison population was almost just as high, there are 0:02:33.578 --> 0:02:38.538 almost twice as many prisoner staff assaults now or in 0:02:38.578 --> 0:02:42.219 the latest year than then. And there's I think it's 0:02:42.258 --> 0:02:46.258 a twenty eight percent increase in the number of prisoner 0:02:46.299 --> 0:02:47.258 prisoner assaults. 0:02:47.819 --> 0:02:52.819 Is this surge mainly about more violence or more reporting 0:02:53.019 --> 0:02:55.299 of small incidents? Do you think? 0:02:55.819 --> 0:02:58.939 Well, if you break the numbers down, the corrections data 0:02:59.299 --> 0:03:05.179 is based on serious assault, non serious assault, and no 0:03:05.299 --> 0:03:10.339 injury assault. So serious assault essentially is something that requires 0:03:10.339 --> 0:03:12.419 a visit to the hospital, or is there to a 0:03:12.418 --> 0:03:16.458 police charge, so the bar is reasonably high. And then 0:03:16.499 --> 0:03:19.099 you have a non serious assault, which is which is 0:03:19.138 --> 0:03:22.138 an injury, which which hasn't led to a hospital visit 0:03:22.219 --> 0:03:24.379 or a police charge. And then you have a no 0:03:24.499 --> 0:03:28.858 injury assault like you know, a shove or I throw 0:03:28.899 --> 0:03:31.659 something at you or something like that, something small that 0:03:31.819 --> 0:03:35.659 doesn't result an injury. So the numbers are actually quite 0:03:35.739 --> 0:03:39.659 stable with serious assaults, and in fact they went down 0:03:40.059 --> 0:03:43.099 slightly in the last year compared to the previous year. 0:03:43.419 --> 0:03:46.179 The majority of the increase is definitely from non serious 0:03:46.219 --> 0:03:49.299 and no injury assaults, and correction is also provided like 0:03:49.339 --> 0:03:52.459 a breakdown per prison, so it's interesting to look at 0:03:52.539 --> 0:03:55.299 each prison, although I mean, there are so many factors 0:03:55.339 --> 0:03:58.099 involved in what happens and how an assault comes to 0:03:58.139 --> 0:04:00.699 be and whether it's recorded in all those things. Corrections 0:04:00.699 --> 0:04:03.899 has also said that there's definitely been a bigger focus 0:04:03.939 --> 0:04:08.459 on reporting and that may explain some of the increase 0:04:08.539 --> 0:04:09.539 in the numbers. 0:04:09.779 --> 0:04:14.979 You mentioned. The rising prison population is becoming more complex 0:04:15.099 --> 0:04:18.739 with higher proportions of remand prisoners. You've got gang affiliated 0:04:18.779 --> 0:04:23.219 in mates and math uses as well. How central is 0:04:23.259 --> 0:04:27.499 this complexity, this cocktail to the rise of assaults. 0:04:27.499 --> 0:04:31.979 Well, Corrections definitely thinks that the complexity of the prison 0:04:32.099 --> 0:04:38.019 population has led to increasing chances of violence. People who 0:04:39.219 --> 0:04:41.939 have a history of heavy matthews who then go to 0:04:42.019 --> 0:04:46.339 prison are more likely to be involved in violence. There's 0:04:46.899 --> 0:04:49.819 I think Corrections themselves referred to it as kind of 0:04:49.859 --> 0:04:53.979 like pack beatings that happen in prison, and they tend 0:04:53.979 --> 0:04:55.659 to be gang related. So if there are more gang 0:04:55.699 --> 0:04:57.979 members in prisons, then there tend to be those kinds 0:04:57.979 --> 0:05:00.419 of assaults. Just looking at the data as well, there's 0:05:00.499 --> 0:05:05.819 more Category three sentences coming through the courts, and they 0:05:05.899 --> 0:05:09.779 are the more serious offenses, punishable by at least two 0:05:09.859 --> 0:05:12.699 years in prison. There is definitely a truth about the 0:05:12.739 --> 0:05:17.859 complexity of the average prisoner, and I guess that would 0:05:18.059 --> 0:05:23.259 mean that your average prisoner is more likely to end 0:05:23.299 --> 0:05:25.299 up in these assult figures. 0:05:25.859 --> 0:05:28.459 It doesn't really surprise us, though, does it, that prisoner 0:05:28.539 --> 0:05:32.379 numbers have gone up because nationals, how tough on crime, 0:05:32.499 --> 0:05:36.299 stants actually promised more people in prisons. 0:05:36.539 --> 0:05:39.419 That's right, And there's a number of policies there. There's 0:05:39.459 --> 0:05:42.059 the center single forms, there's a return of three strikes, 0:05:43.019 --> 0:05:46.379 there's the ending of the section twenty seven reports for 0:05:46.419 --> 0:05:51.899 state funding. All of these are projected to mean a 0:05:51.899 --> 0:05:55.499 prison population that's three thousand higher in ten years time 0:05:56.059 --> 0:06:00.219 than without those policies. Money for corrections is based on 0:06:00.579 --> 0:06:05.019 these forecasts, right, So in this year's budget, the government 0:06:05.059 --> 0:06:10.499 set aside a certain amount of money for corrections to manage, 0:06:11.299 --> 0:06:14.299 and it's based on a forecast. The forecast was for 0:06:15.379 --> 0:06:22.779 I think hundred and sixty by June next year. The 0:06:22.859 --> 0:06:29.019 forecast back then, I mean was basically way out. Because 0:06:29.059 --> 0:06:32.019 we're currently at tand one hundred and sixty, nine months 0:06:32.019 --> 0:06:36.099 ahead of schedule, and that basically means that as the 0:06:36.099 --> 0:06:40.099 prison population grows, which it's expected to, then the corrections 0:06:40.139 --> 0:06:43.459 budget per prisoner is shrinking unless they ask for more money, 0:06:43.659 --> 0:06:46.419 which they haven't. So corrections is just managing with the 0:06:46.459 --> 0:06:52.939 baseline and it's just increasingly harder as the prison population grows, 0:06:53.219 --> 0:06:56.259 the complexity of the prisoners coming in grows. They were 0:06:56.299 --> 0:06:58.379 basically in a bit of a staffing crisis a few 0:06:58.459 --> 0:07:02.299 years ago because the prison population was shooting up since 0:07:02.299 --> 0:07:04.979 the start of twenty twenty two, and then they're just 0:07:05.019 --> 0:07:07.459 playing catch up with frontline staff. That made a big 0:07:07.499 --> 0:07:12.379 recruitment drive last year and they've halved the attrition rate, 0:07:12.459 --> 0:07:14.859 which is staff turnover rate, so they're actually at a 0:07:14.859 --> 0:07:17.379 better position than they have been, but there are still 0:07:17.379 --> 0:07:20.979 two hundred and seventy seven officers corrections officers short of 0:07:21.019 --> 0:07:24.099 where they want to be. And Creations describes this, and 0:07:25.099 --> 0:07:31.699 there's a beautiful managerial phrase, suboptimal custodial frontline resilience, which 0:07:31.739 --> 0:07:34.179 basically means that not operating with the ideal level of 0:07:34.219 --> 0:07:39.299 staff and that really puts the staff under pressure. I 0:07:39.339 --> 0:07:42.019 should also add that that this is nothing new for Corrections, 0:07:42.059 --> 0:07:45.859 Like the forecast that was based for the prisoner forecast 0:07:45.899 --> 0:07:49.419 that was used on the basis for funding for budget 0:07:49.419 --> 0:07:52.499 twenty twenty four was also way below the numbers that 0:07:52.539 --> 0:07:55.419 it rigally came out. So they've been doing this for 0:07:55.459 --> 0:08:00.219 a while. And how long they can do it for 0:08:00.339 --> 0:08:04.659 is anyone's guess, but it's certainly it's certainly suboptimal. In 0:08:04.739 --> 0:08:05.619 Correction's own. 0:08:05.499 --> 0:08:08.779 To him, well, they're constantly playing catch up pay and 0:08:09.179 --> 0:08:11.779 I'm never calling anything bad again. I'm going to be 0:08:11.819 --> 0:08:13.779 calling it suboptimal from now on. 0:08:20.619 --> 0:08:23.619 The best we've ever been in the last eight years 0:08:23.699 --> 0:08:26.419 in terms of staff. We're in the best position we 0:08:26.539 --> 0:08:32.859 have been in eight years. It's not subpoptible at all. 0:08:32.899 --> 0:08:35.779 It's not the Christians saying that they're suboptimal there saying 0:08:35.819 --> 0:08:38.819 that Christians are the best place of the being. Like 0:08:38.899 --> 0:08:42.179 I said, for eight years, there's an incoming government. They 0:08:42.218 --> 0:08:45.819 started a new recruiting campaign that's been extremely successful. We've 0:08:45.819 --> 0:08:48.299 got a massive popeline of people wanting to join and 0:08:48.379 --> 0:08:50.858 become Creach suss as. We've got to other sevinty officers 0:08:51.259 --> 0:08:53.498 been trained and ready to deployed at the moment. 0:08:55.498 --> 0:08:58.779 You also bring up double bunking, which has become an 0:08:58.858 --> 0:09:01.338 issue and it's even been linked to a prisoner killing 0:09:01.498 --> 0:09:04.978 his cell mate. Do I experts see double bunking as 0:09:05.019 --> 0:09:10.578 an unavoidable necessity or a policy failure that's fueling that violence. 0:09:11.858 --> 0:09:14.819 Well, it probably depends on who you ask. I remember 0:09:14.939 --> 0:09:18.138 double bunking was brought in I think in twenty ten 0:09:18.259 --> 0:09:21.378 or twenty eleven under the previous National government. I was 0:09:21.379 --> 0:09:23.819 actually part of a cohorter journalists that were taken to 0:09:24.059 --> 0:09:29.898 Ramattaka prison to sample the double bunking and you know, 0:09:30.379 --> 0:09:33.619 the sales were barely roomy. They were really comfortable also, 0:09:33.699 --> 0:09:36.179 you know, more centuring and with among them old members, 0:09:36.259 --> 0:09:41.618 so it wasn't particularly dangerous, but double bunking has been 0:09:41.659 --> 0:09:44.658 quite controversial. It's been increasingly used. I should say that 0:09:44.699 --> 0:09:47.738 there's no current sort of capacity crisis because there's a 0:09:48.338 --> 0:09:51.019 there was a recent addition to II carrier, so now 0:09:51.098 --> 0:09:56.179 the current capacity is over twelve thousand, but forty five 0:09:56.218 --> 0:09:59.338 percent of the prison population is now double bunked, so 0:09:59.498 --> 0:10:04.658 that's basically five thousand prisoners. It's a lot, right, And 0:10:04.858 --> 0:10:07.498 if we didn't have dumble bunking, then we wouldn't have capacity. 0:10:07.578 --> 0:10:11.179 So it is a necessity. Prisoners are screen before they 0:10:11.218 --> 0:10:13.738 put in a double bunk, but obviously that's not for 0:10:13.978 --> 0:10:18.418 proof and as the Correction of the Association President Vluidipacy 0:10:18.539 --> 0:10:22.018 was saying earlier this week, that creates violence, that creates tensions. 0:10:22.139 --> 0:10:28.738 We've got some optimal sub optimal staffing. So again not 0:10:28.899 --> 0:10:34.098 not not great. Assaults are going up and you know 0:10:34.179 --> 0:10:37.539 there's no sort of there's no sort of reprieve coming. 0:10:38.098 --> 0:10:42.939 You know, Mitchell said about frontline staffing levels. 0:10:44.179 --> 0:10:48.138 He says things are going great, and obviously it's a 0:10:48.139 --> 0:10:51.819 political perspective, but it's not entirely untrue because there was 0:10:52.019 --> 0:10:54.099 much more of a staffing crisis a few years ago, 0:10:54.419 --> 0:10:57.779 and they are in a much better position, but obviously 0:10:58.098 --> 0:11:01.299 they would like to have more, hundreds more in fact, 0:11:03.059 --> 0:11:08.099 and you know, kind of both perspectives are correct. Things 0:11:08.098 --> 0:11:10.299 are better than they used to be, but they're still 0:11:11.819 --> 0:11:15.098 at such a level where it creates more risk for 0:11:15.259 --> 0:11:18.259 the staff and the staff for you know, you got 0:11:18.338 --> 0:11:22.338 to feel for them because they can only have the 0:11:22.458 --> 0:11:27.819 numbers that Corrections provides, which is based on government budgets. 0:11:28.179 --> 0:11:30.138 But they are on the front line. They deal with 0:11:31.059 --> 0:11:35.738 all of the complexities of that happen behind bars. And 0:11:35.899 --> 0:11:38.858 that's saying that there are so few staff now that 0:11:39.659 --> 0:11:41.898 there's a whole bunch of vacant shifts that aren't being filled. 0:11:42.098 --> 0:11:46.498 Correction says that, you know, that's not because there's not 0:11:46.618 --> 0:11:49.738 enough staff. It's because often for a sick leave or 0:11:51.019 --> 0:11:54.819 some unforseeeable leave, and then the decision is made not 0:11:54.899 --> 0:11:57.059 to bring more people in because it can be the 0:11:57.139 --> 0:11:59.699 prison can be safely managed as it is. But the 0:11:59.819 --> 0:12:03.659 union says, you know, it puts us more in danger, 0:12:03.699 --> 0:12:06.819 it was there more in danger. It creates more tension 0:12:07.059 --> 0:12:10.538 in the behind bars, and you know those and the 0:12:10.659 --> 0:12:11.699 risks are heightened. 0:12:13.019 --> 0:12:15.378 I mean, the union says and has told you that 0:12:15.498 --> 0:12:19.458 it's already a crisis, but the Minister says it isn't. 0:12:19.699 --> 0:12:21.539 Who do you reckon is closer to the truth. 0:12:23.299 --> 0:12:25.539 Well, I mean they have different perspectives, right, I mean 0:12:25.738 --> 0:12:31.699 the Corrections Association they represent the front line staff. They 0:12:31.699 --> 0:12:34.619 don't want to see their front line staff and danger. 0:12:34.779 --> 0:12:37.578 Obviously there's going to be some danger because it's just 0:12:37.659 --> 0:12:40.619 the inherent nature of the job. They want to avoid 0:12:40.659 --> 0:12:42.819 that as much as possible. Part of that is having 0:12:42.858 --> 0:12:46.059 proper levels. Part is that that is minimizing the vacon shifts. 0:12:47.498 --> 0:12:52.018 And the Minister, he backs the staff and he backs Corrections, 0:12:52.379 --> 0:12:57.539 but he's also kind of hamstrung because you know it's 0:12:57.578 --> 0:12:59.699 the finance minister who decides how much money they get. 0:13:01.419 --> 0:13:05.258 Corrections just deals with the back end of the justice pipeline. 0:13:05.779 --> 0:13:08.819 You know how many people go there isn't up to corrections. 0:13:08.858 --> 0:13:12.619 They just have to manage it. It's all about crime 0:13:12.819 --> 0:13:16.179 and police and charges and court timeliness, and that just 0:13:17.019 --> 0:13:19.738 piles it all up. At the Corrections end the year ago, 0:13:20.179 --> 0:13:22.218 You've only got this mush money. You've only got this 0:13:22.299 --> 0:13:23.978 mush staff. Good luck to you. 0:13:24.779 --> 0:13:27.699 Well, has Corrections given any indication of any new funding 0:13:27.738 --> 0:13:28.858 requests for next year. 0:13:29.218 --> 0:13:32.178 Well, in budget twenty twenty five they asked for attack contingency, 0:13:32.218 --> 0:13:36.379 which is basically, we want this money which the government 0:13:36.419 --> 0:13:39.179 gave them to manage our forecast, which as I said earlier, 0:13:39.419 --> 0:13:42.658 has been met nine months ahere to forecast. And the 0:13:42.738 --> 0:13:44.898 attack contingency is basically, if you can give us this 0:13:45.019 --> 0:13:47.378 extra money, you can put it on the shelf. It's 0:13:47.618 --> 0:13:50.019 just for us in case there are more prisoners than 0:13:50.059 --> 0:13:52.539 the forecast number, and that would be great because then 0:13:52.578 --> 0:13:55.258 we can just pull it off the shelf if those 0:13:55.338 --> 0:13:58.419 numbers are high than forecast, which they now are. Nikolaulas 0:13:58.458 --> 0:14:02.299 said no, based on Treasury advice. They said, well, in fact, 0:14:02.338 --> 0:14:05.299 I think it's better just to make you ask for 0:14:05.539 --> 0:14:10.578 out of cycle funding they call it. So Corrections has 0:14:10.659 --> 0:14:13.659 not asked for that money. Mark Mitchell told me last 0:14:13.699 --> 0:14:17.418 week that you know, he's ready to support them if 0:14:17.419 --> 0:14:20.219 they need that money. But there's so that there's such 0:14:20.259 --> 0:14:22.739 a fiscal crunch on the government. I mean, they've got 0:14:22.819 --> 0:14:25.939 so little available money and they're squeezing every department for 0:14:25.979 --> 0:14:28.939 every last cent, you know, like they're taking hundreds of 0:14:28.979 --> 0:14:31.339 millions of dollars from foreign tourists for example, which is 0:14:31.379 --> 0:14:33.658 meant to go to tourism and conservation and then just 0:14:33.739 --> 0:14:35.619 kind of squirreling it down over here for us, Thank 0:14:35.619 --> 0:14:39.819 you very much. So it costs one point seven billion 0:14:39.899 --> 0:14:44.139 dollars a year for corrections to manage the prison population, 0:14:44.619 --> 0:14:46.579 so there's all this pressure on them to just do 0:14:46.699 --> 0:14:49.259 everything with the baseline, which is what they're doing so far. 0:14:50.699 --> 0:14:53.819 I just hope that, you know, let's say they really 0:14:53.859 --> 0:14:56.059 need more money because it's because safety is at risk, 0:14:56.459 --> 0:14:58.219 they'll ask for it and the government will give it 0:14:58.259 --> 0:14:58.499 to them. 0:14:58.619 --> 0:15:04.579 Thanks for joining us, Derek, You're welcome. That's it for 0:15:04.659 --> 0:15:07.778 this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 0:15:07.819 --> 0:15:11.899 about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzid Herald 0:15:12.099 --> 0:15:15.659 dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by 0:15:15.819 --> 0:15:18.859 Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who was also our editor. 0:15:19.499 --> 0:15:23.739 I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 0:15:23.979 --> 0:15:26.699 or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on 0:15:26.859 --> 0:15:29.419 Monday for another look behind the headlines.