1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 2 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:25,259 Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 3 00:00:25,579 --> 00:00:28,699 Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 4 00:00:28,739 --> 00:00:32,019 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 5 00:00:32,138 --> 00:00:34,619 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 6 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:44,059 Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kiyota, I'm 7 00:00:44,138 --> 00:00:47,539 Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily 8 00:00:47,659 --> 00:00:55,179 Speaker 1: podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The Corrections Association 9 00:00:55,419 --> 00:01:00,779 Speaker 1: says New Zealand's prisons are in crisis. Last year saw 10 00:01:01,019 --> 00:01:06,179 Speaker 1: record breaking numbers of assaults on staff, almost double what 11 00:01:06,219 --> 00:01:09,339 Speaker 1: they were just seven years ago. There were also more 12 00:01:09,378 --> 00:01:14,339 Speaker 1: than fifteen hundred prisoner on prisoner attacks, the highest annual 13 00:01:14,419 --> 00:01:18,738 Speaker 1: figure on record. All of this comes with overcrowding, tight 14 00:01:18,979 --> 00:01:23,219 Speaker 1: budgets and a growing gang and meth problem. Today on 15 00:01:23,258 --> 00:01:26,619 Speaker 1: the Front Page ends at Herald, Senior reporter Derek Chang 16 00:01:26,739 --> 00:01:32,978 Speaker 1: is with us to dive into the numbers. So, Derek, 17 00:01:33,098 --> 00:01:37,659 Speaker 1: when you began looking into Correction's latest prison assault data, 18 00:01:37,899 --> 00:01:39,059 Speaker 1: what stood out to you? 19 00:01:39,779 --> 00:01:44,378 Speaker 2: Well, the figures are the highest on record, and obviously 20 00:01:44,459 --> 00:01:49,939 Speaker 2: the prison population fluctuates and the number of prison offices fluctuates. 21 00:01:50,019 --> 00:01:52,739 Speaker 2: At the moment, the prison population is an all time high. 22 00:01:52,859 --> 00:01:57,739 Speaker 2: It's just under teny nine hundred, and the last time 23 00:01:57,779 --> 00:02:02,619 Speaker 2: it was more or less the same population number was 24 00:02:02,659 --> 00:02:06,859 Speaker 2: back in March twenty eighteen. So it's interesting to compare 25 00:02:07,059 --> 00:02:10,419 Speaker 2: the numbers. So I mean corrections keeps the starter. It's 26 00:02:10,619 --> 00:02:14,699 Speaker 2: prisoner on prisoner assaults and prisoner on staff assaults. So 27 00:02:14,859 --> 00:02:18,339 Speaker 2: in the last year, which is twenty four twenty five, 28 00:02:19,019 --> 00:02:22,899 Speaker 2: were almost sixteen hundred prisoner prisoner assaults, and there were 29 00:02:23,739 --> 00:02:27,458 Speaker 2: almost eleven hundred prisoner staff assaults. And if you compare 30 00:02:27,499 --> 00:02:30,338 Speaker 2: that to the twenty seven eighteen year, which was when 31 00:02:30,379 --> 00:02:33,538 Speaker 2: the prison population was almost just as high, there are 32 00:02:33,578 --> 00:02:38,538 Speaker 2: almost twice as many prisoner staff assaults now or in 33 00:02:38,578 --> 00:02:42,219 Speaker 2: the latest year than then. And there's I think it's 34 00:02:42,258 --> 00:02:46,258 Speaker 2: a twenty eight percent increase in the number of prisoner 35 00:02:46,299 --> 00:02:47,258 Speaker 2: prisoner assaults. 36 00:02:47,819 --> 00:02:52,819 Speaker 1: Is this surge mainly about more violence or more reporting 37 00:02:53,019 --> 00:02:55,299 Speaker 1: of small incidents? Do you think? 38 00:02:55,819 --> 00:02:58,939 Speaker 2: Well, if you break the numbers down, the corrections data 39 00:02:59,299 --> 00:03:05,179 Speaker 2: is based on serious assault, non serious assault, and no 40 00:03:05,299 --> 00:03:10,339 Speaker 2: injury assault. So serious assault essentially is something that requires 41 00:03:10,339 --> 00:03:12,419 Speaker 2: a visit to the hospital, or is there to a 42 00:03:12,418 --> 00:03:16,458 Speaker 2: police charge, so the bar is reasonably high. And then 43 00:03:16,499 --> 00:03:19,099 Speaker 2: you have a non serious assault, which is which is 44 00:03:19,138 --> 00:03:22,138 Speaker 2: an injury, which which hasn't led to a hospital visit 45 00:03:22,219 --> 00:03:24,379 Speaker 2: or a police charge. And then you have a no 46 00:03:24,499 --> 00:03:28,858 Speaker 2: injury assault like you know, a shove or I throw 47 00:03:28,899 --> 00:03:31,659 Speaker 2: something at you or something like that, something small that 48 00:03:31,819 --> 00:03:35,659 Speaker 2: doesn't result an injury. So the numbers are actually quite 49 00:03:35,739 --> 00:03:39,659 Speaker 2: stable with serious assaults, and in fact they went down 50 00:03:40,059 --> 00:03:43,099 Speaker 2: slightly in the last year compared to the previous year. 51 00:03:43,419 --> 00:03:46,179 Speaker 2: The majority of the increase is definitely from non serious 52 00:03:46,219 --> 00:03:49,299 Speaker 2: and no injury assaults, and correction is also provided like 53 00:03:49,339 --> 00:03:52,459 Speaker 2: a breakdown per prison, so it's interesting to look at 54 00:03:52,539 --> 00:03:55,299 Speaker 2: each prison, although I mean, there are so many factors 55 00:03:55,339 --> 00:03:58,099 Speaker 2: involved in what happens and how an assault comes to 56 00:03:58,139 --> 00:04:00,699 Speaker 2: be and whether it's recorded in all those things. Corrections 57 00:04:00,699 --> 00:04:03,899 Speaker 2: has also said that there's definitely been a bigger focus 58 00:04:03,939 --> 00:04:08,459 Speaker 2: on reporting and that may explain some of the increase 59 00:04:08,539 --> 00:04:09,539 Speaker 2: in the numbers. 60 00:04:09,779 --> 00:04:14,979 Speaker 1: You mentioned. The rising prison population is becoming more complex 61 00:04:15,099 --> 00:04:18,739 Speaker 1: with higher proportions of remand prisoners. You've got gang affiliated 62 00:04:18,779 --> 00:04:23,219 Speaker 1: in mates and math uses as well. How central is 63 00:04:23,259 --> 00:04:27,499 Speaker 1: this complexity, this cocktail to the rise of assaults. 64 00:04:27,499 --> 00:04:31,979 Speaker 2: Well, Corrections definitely thinks that the complexity of the prison 65 00:04:32,099 --> 00:04:38,019 Speaker 2: population has led to increasing chances of violence. People who 66 00:04:39,219 --> 00:04:41,939 Speaker 2: have a history of heavy matthews who then go to 67 00:04:42,019 --> 00:04:46,339 Speaker 2: prison are more likely to be involved in violence. There's 68 00:04:46,899 --> 00:04:49,819 Speaker 2: I think Corrections themselves referred to it as kind of 69 00:04:49,859 --> 00:04:53,979 Speaker 2: like pack beatings that happen in prison, and they tend 70 00:04:53,979 --> 00:04:55,659 Speaker 2: to be gang related. So if there are more gang 71 00:04:55,699 --> 00:04:57,979 Speaker 2: members in prisons, then there tend to be those kinds 72 00:04:57,979 --> 00:05:00,419 Speaker 2: of assaults. Just looking at the data as well, there's 73 00:05:00,499 --> 00:05:05,819 Speaker 2: more Category three sentences coming through the courts, and they 74 00:05:05,899 --> 00:05:09,779 Speaker 2: are the more serious offenses, punishable by at least two 75 00:05:09,859 --> 00:05:12,699 Speaker 2: years in prison. There is definitely a truth about the 76 00:05:12,739 --> 00:05:17,859 Speaker 2: complexity of the average prisoner, and I guess that would 77 00:05:18,059 --> 00:05:23,259 Speaker 2: mean that your average prisoner is more likely to end 78 00:05:23,299 --> 00:05:25,299 Speaker 2: up in these assult figures. 79 00:05:25,859 --> 00:05:28,459 Speaker 1: It doesn't really surprise us, though, does it, that prisoner 80 00:05:28,539 --> 00:05:32,379 Speaker 1: numbers have gone up because nationals, how tough on crime, 81 00:05:32,499 --> 00:05:36,299 Speaker 1: stants actually promised more people in prisons. 82 00:05:36,539 --> 00:05:39,419 Speaker 2: That's right, And there's a number of policies there. There's 83 00:05:39,459 --> 00:05:42,059 Speaker 2: the center single forms, there's a return of three strikes, 84 00:05:43,019 --> 00:05:46,379 Speaker 2: there's the ending of the section twenty seven reports for 85 00:05:46,419 --> 00:05:51,899 Speaker 2: state funding. All of these are projected to mean a 86 00:05:51,899 --> 00:05:55,499 Speaker 2: prison population that's three thousand higher in ten years time 87 00:05:56,059 --> 00:06:00,219 Speaker 2: than without those policies. Money for corrections is based on 88 00:06:00,579 --> 00:06:05,019 Speaker 2: these forecasts, right, So in this year's budget, the government 89 00:06:05,059 --> 00:06:10,499 Speaker 2: set aside a certain amount of money for corrections to manage, 90 00:06:11,299 --> 00:06:14,299 Speaker 2: and it's based on a forecast. The forecast was for 91 00:06:15,379 --> 00:06:22,779 Speaker 2: I think hundred and sixty by June next year. The 92 00:06:22,859 --> 00:06:29,019 Speaker 2: forecast back then, I mean was basically way out. Because 93 00:06:29,059 --> 00:06:32,019 Speaker 2: we're currently at tand one hundred and sixty, nine months 94 00:06:32,019 --> 00:06:36,099 Speaker 2: ahead of schedule, and that basically means that as the 95 00:06:36,099 --> 00:06:40,099 Speaker 2: prison population grows, which it's expected to, then the corrections 96 00:06:40,139 --> 00:06:43,459 Speaker 2: budget per prisoner is shrinking unless they ask for more money, 97 00:06:43,659 --> 00:06:46,419 Speaker 2: which they haven't. So corrections is just managing with the 98 00:06:46,459 --> 00:06:52,939 Speaker 2: baseline and it's just increasingly harder as the prison population grows, 99 00:06:53,219 --> 00:06:56,259 Speaker 2: the complexity of the prisoners coming in grows. They were 100 00:06:56,299 --> 00:06:58,379 Speaker 2: basically in a bit of a staffing crisis a few 101 00:06:58,459 --> 00:07:02,299 Speaker 2: years ago because the prison population was shooting up since 102 00:07:02,299 --> 00:07:04,979 Speaker 2: the start of twenty twenty two, and then they're just 103 00:07:05,019 --> 00:07:07,459 Speaker 2: playing catch up with frontline staff. That made a big 104 00:07:07,499 --> 00:07:12,379 Speaker 2: recruitment drive last year and they've halved the attrition rate, 105 00:07:12,459 --> 00:07:14,859 Speaker 2: which is staff turnover rate, so they're actually at a 106 00:07:14,859 --> 00:07:17,379 Speaker 2: better position than they have been, but there are still 107 00:07:17,379 --> 00:07:20,979 Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy seven officers corrections officers short of 108 00:07:21,019 --> 00:07:24,099 Speaker 2: where they want to be. And Creations describes this, and 109 00:07:25,099 --> 00:07:31,699 Speaker 2: there's a beautiful managerial phrase, suboptimal custodial frontline resilience, which 110 00:07:31,739 --> 00:07:34,179 Speaker 2: basically means that not operating with the ideal level of 111 00:07:34,219 --> 00:07:39,299 Speaker 2: staff and that really puts the staff under pressure. I 112 00:07:39,339 --> 00:07:42,019 Speaker 2: should also add that that this is nothing new for Corrections, 113 00:07:42,059 --> 00:07:45,859 Speaker 2: Like the forecast that was based for the prisoner forecast 114 00:07:45,899 --> 00:07:49,419 Speaker 2: that was used on the basis for funding for budget 115 00:07:49,419 --> 00:07:52,499 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four was also way below the numbers that 116 00:07:52,539 --> 00:07:55,419 Speaker 2: it rigally came out. So they've been doing this for 117 00:07:55,459 --> 00:08:00,219 Speaker 2: a while. And how long they can do it for 118 00:08:00,339 --> 00:08:04,659 Speaker 2: is anyone's guess, but it's certainly it's certainly suboptimal. In 119 00:08:04,739 --> 00:08:05,619 Speaker 2: Correction's own. 120 00:08:05,499 --> 00:08:08,779 Speaker 1: To him, well, they're constantly playing catch up pay and 121 00:08:09,179 --> 00:08:11,779 Speaker 1: I'm never calling anything bad again. I'm going to be 122 00:08:11,819 --> 00:08:13,779 Speaker 1: calling it suboptimal from now on. 123 00:08:20,619 --> 00:08:23,619 Speaker 3: The best we've ever been in the last eight years 124 00:08:23,699 --> 00:08:26,419 Speaker 3: in terms of staff. We're in the best position we 125 00:08:26,539 --> 00:08:32,859 Speaker 3: have been in eight years. It's not subpoptible at all. 126 00:08:32,899 --> 00:08:35,779 Speaker 3: It's not the Christians saying that they're suboptimal there saying 127 00:08:35,819 --> 00:08:38,819 Speaker 3: that Christians are the best place of the being. Like 128 00:08:38,899 --> 00:08:42,179 Speaker 3: I said, for eight years, there's an incoming government. They 129 00:08:42,218 --> 00:08:45,819 Speaker 3: started a new recruiting campaign that's been extremely successful. We've 130 00:08:45,819 --> 00:08:48,299 Speaker 3: got a massive popeline of people wanting to join and 131 00:08:48,379 --> 00:08:50,858 Speaker 3: become Creach suss as. We've got to other sevinty officers 132 00:08:51,259 --> 00:08:53,498 Speaker 3: been trained and ready to deployed at the moment. 133 00:08:55,498 --> 00:08:58,779 Speaker 1: You also bring up double bunking, which has become an 134 00:08:58,858 --> 00:09:01,338 Speaker 1: issue and it's even been linked to a prisoner killing 135 00:09:01,498 --> 00:09:04,978 Speaker 1: his cell mate. Do I experts see double bunking as 136 00:09:05,019 --> 00:09:10,578 Speaker 1: an unavoidable necessity or a policy failure that's fueling that violence. 137 00:09:11,858 --> 00:09:14,819 Speaker 2: Well, it probably depends on who you ask. I remember 138 00:09:14,939 --> 00:09:18,138 Speaker 2: double bunking was brought in I think in twenty ten 139 00:09:18,259 --> 00:09:21,378 Speaker 2: or twenty eleven under the previous National government. I was 140 00:09:21,379 --> 00:09:23,819 Speaker 2: actually part of a cohorter journalists that were taken to 141 00:09:24,059 --> 00:09:29,898 Speaker 2: Ramattaka prison to sample the double bunking and you know, 142 00:09:30,379 --> 00:09:33,619 Speaker 2: the sales were barely roomy. They were really comfortable also, 143 00:09:33,699 --> 00:09:36,179 Speaker 2: you know, more centuring and with among them old members, 144 00:09:36,259 --> 00:09:41,618 Speaker 2: so it wasn't particularly dangerous, but double bunking has been 145 00:09:41,659 --> 00:09:44,658 Speaker 2: quite controversial. It's been increasingly used. I should say that 146 00:09:44,699 --> 00:09:47,738 Speaker 2: there's no current sort of capacity crisis because there's a 147 00:09:48,338 --> 00:09:51,019 Speaker 2: there was a recent addition to II carrier, so now 148 00:09:51,098 --> 00:09:56,179 Speaker 2: the current capacity is over twelve thousand, but forty five 149 00:09:56,218 --> 00:09:59,338 Speaker 2: percent of the prison population is now double bunked, so 150 00:09:59,498 --> 00:10:04,658 Speaker 2: that's basically five thousand prisoners. It's a lot, right, And 151 00:10:04,858 --> 00:10:07,498 Speaker 2: if we didn't have dumble bunking, then we wouldn't have capacity. 152 00:10:07,578 --> 00:10:11,179 Speaker 2: So it is a necessity. Prisoners are screen before they 153 00:10:11,218 --> 00:10:13,738 Speaker 2: put in a double bunk, but obviously that's not for 154 00:10:13,978 --> 00:10:18,418 Speaker 2: proof and as the Correction of the Association President Vluidipacy 155 00:10:18,539 --> 00:10:22,018 Speaker 2: was saying earlier this week, that creates violence, that creates tensions. 156 00:10:22,139 --> 00:10:28,738 Speaker 2: We've got some optimal sub optimal staffing. So again not 157 00:10:28,899 --> 00:10:34,098 Speaker 2: not not great. Assaults are going up and you know 158 00:10:34,179 --> 00:10:37,539 Speaker 2: there's no sort of there's no sort of reprieve coming. 159 00:10:38,098 --> 00:10:42,939 Speaker 1: You know, Mitchell said about frontline staffing levels. 160 00:10:44,179 --> 00:10:48,138 Speaker 2: He says things are going great, and obviously it's a 161 00:10:48,139 --> 00:10:51,819 Speaker 2: political perspective, but it's not entirely untrue because there was 162 00:10:52,019 --> 00:10:54,099 Speaker 2: much more of a staffing crisis a few years ago, 163 00:10:54,419 --> 00:10:57,779 Speaker 2: and they are in a much better position, but obviously 164 00:10:58,098 --> 00:11:01,299 Speaker 2: they would like to have more, hundreds more in fact, 165 00:11:03,059 --> 00:11:08,099 Speaker 2: and you know, kind of both perspectives are correct. Things 166 00:11:08,098 --> 00:11:10,299 Speaker 2: are better than they used to be, but they're still 167 00:11:11,819 --> 00:11:15,098 Speaker 2: at such a level where it creates more risk for 168 00:11:15,259 --> 00:11:18,259 Speaker 2: the staff and the staff for you know, you got 169 00:11:18,338 --> 00:11:22,338 Speaker 2: to feel for them because they can only have the 170 00:11:22,458 --> 00:11:27,819 Speaker 2: numbers that Corrections provides, which is based on government budgets. 171 00:11:28,179 --> 00:11:30,138 Speaker 2: But they are on the front line. They deal with 172 00:11:31,059 --> 00:11:35,738 Speaker 2: all of the complexities of that happen behind bars. And 173 00:11:35,899 --> 00:11:38,858 Speaker 2: that's saying that there are so few staff now that 174 00:11:39,659 --> 00:11:41,898 Speaker 2: there's a whole bunch of vacant shifts that aren't being filled. 175 00:11:42,098 --> 00:11:46,498 Speaker 2: Correction says that, you know, that's not because there's not 176 00:11:46,618 --> 00:11:49,738 Speaker 2: enough staff. It's because often for a sick leave or 177 00:11:51,019 --> 00:11:54,819 Speaker 2: some unforseeeable leave, and then the decision is made not 178 00:11:54,899 --> 00:11:57,059 Speaker 2: to bring more people in because it can be the 179 00:11:57,139 --> 00:11:59,699 Speaker 2: prison can be safely managed as it is. But the 180 00:11:59,819 --> 00:12:03,659 Speaker 2: union says, you know, it puts us more in danger, 181 00:12:03,699 --> 00:12:06,819 Speaker 2: it was there more in danger. It creates more tension 182 00:12:07,059 --> 00:12:10,538 Speaker 2: in the behind bars, and you know those and the 183 00:12:10,659 --> 00:12:11,699 Speaker 2: risks are heightened. 184 00:12:13,019 --> 00:12:15,378 Speaker 1: I mean, the union says and has told you that 185 00:12:15,498 --> 00:12:19,458 Speaker 1: it's already a crisis, but the Minister says it isn't. 186 00:12:19,699 --> 00:12:21,539 Speaker 1: Who do you reckon is closer to the truth. 187 00:12:23,299 --> 00:12:25,539 Speaker 2: Well, I mean they have different perspectives, right, I mean 188 00:12:25,738 --> 00:12:31,699 Speaker 2: the Corrections Association they represent the front line staff. They 189 00:12:31,699 --> 00:12:34,619 Speaker 2: don't want to see their front line staff and danger. 190 00:12:34,779 --> 00:12:37,578 Speaker 2: Obviously there's going to be some danger because it's just 191 00:12:37,659 --> 00:12:40,619 Speaker 2: the inherent nature of the job. They want to avoid 192 00:12:40,659 --> 00:12:42,819 Speaker 2: that as much as possible. Part of that is having 193 00:12:42,858 --> 00:12:46,059 Speaker 2: proper levels. Part is that that is minimizing the vacon shifts. 194 00:12:47,498 --> 00:12:52,018 Speaker 2: And the Minister, he backs the staff and he backs Corrections, 195 00:12:52,379 --> 00:12:57,539 Speaker 2: but he's also kind of hamstrung because you know it's 196 00:12:57,578 --> 00:12:59,699 Speaker 2: the finance minister who decides how much money they get. 197 00:13:01,419 --> 00:13:05,258 Speaker 2: Corrections just deals with the back end of the justice pipeline. 198 00:13:05,779 --> 00:13:08,819 Speaker 2: You know how many people go there isn't up to corrections. 199 00:13:08,858 --> 00:13:12,619 Speaker 2: They just have to manage it. It's all about crime 200 00:13:12,819 --> 00:13:16,179 Speaker 2: and police and charges and court timeliness, and that just 201 00:13:17,019 --> 00:13:19,738 Speaker 2: piles it all up. At the Corrections end the year ago, 202 00:13:20,179 --> 00:13:22,218 Speaker 2: You've only got this mush money. You've only got this 203 00:13:22,299 --> 00:13:23,978 Speaker 2: mush staff. Good luck to you. 204 00:13:24,779 --> 00:13:27,699 Speaker 1: Well, has Corrections given any indication of any new funding 205 00:13:27,738 --> 00:13:28,858 Speaker 1: requests for next year. 206 00:13:29,218 --> 00:13:32,178 Speaker 2: Well, in budget twenty twenty five they asked for attack contingency, 207 00:13:32,218 --> 00:13:36,379 Speaker 2: which is basically, we want this money which the government 208 00:13:36,419 --> 00:13:39,179 Speaker 2: gave them to manage our forecast, which as I said earlier, 209 00:13:39,419 --> 00:13:42,658 Speaker 2: has been met nine months ahere to forecast. And the 210 00:13:42,738 --> 00:13:44,898 Speaker 2: attack contingency is basically, if you can give us this 211 00:13:45,019 --> 00:13:47,378 Speaker 2: extra money, you can put it on the shelf. It's 212 00:13:47,618 --> 00:13:50,019 Speaker 2: just for us in case there are more prisoners than 213 00:13:50,059 --> 00:13:52,539 Speaker 2: the forecast number, and that would be great because then 214 00:13:52,578 --> 00:13:55,258 Speaker 2: we can just pull it off the shelf if those 215 00:13:55,338 --> 00:13:58,419 Speaker 2: numbers are high than forecast, which they now are. Nikolaulas 216 00:13:58,458 --> 00:14:02,299 Speaker 2: said no, based on Treasury advice. They said, well, in fact, 217 00:14:02,338 --> 00:14:05,299 Speaker 2: I think it's better just to make you ask for 218 00:14:05,539 --> 00:14:10,578 Speaker 2: out of cycle funding they call it. So Corrections has 219 00:14:10,659 --> 00:14:13,659 Speaker 2: not asked for that money. Mark Mitchell told me last 220 00:14:13,699 --> 00:14:17,418 Speaker 2: week that you know, he's ready to support them if 221 00:14:17,419 --> 00:14:20,219 Speaker 2: they need that money. But there's so that there's such 222 00:14:20,259 --> 00:14:22,739 Speaker 2: a fiscal crunch on the government. I mean, they've got 223 00:14:22,819 --> 00:14:25,939 Speaker 2: so little available money and they're squeezing every department for 224 00:14:25,979 --> 00:14:28,939 Speaker 2: every last cent, you know, like they're taking hundreds of 225 00:14:28,979 --> 00:14:31,339 Speaker 2: millions of dollars from foreign tourists for example, which is 226 00:14:31,379 --> 00:14:33,658 Speaker 2: meant to go to tourism and conservation and then just 227 00:14:33,739 --> 00:14:35,619 Speaker 2: kind of squirreling it down over here for us, Thank 228 00:14:35,619 --> 00:14:39,819 Speaker 2: you very much. So it costs one point seven billion 229 00:14:39,899 --> 00:14:44,139 Speaker 2: dollars a year for corrections to manage the prison population, 230 00:14:44,619 --> 00:14:46,579 Speaker 2: so there's all this pressure on them to just do 231 00:14:46,699 --> 00:14:49,259 Speaker 2: everything with the baseline, which is what they're doing so far. 232 00:14:50,699 --> 00:14:53,819 Speaker 2: I just hope that, you know, let's say they really 233 00:14:53,859 --> 00:14:56,059 Speaker 2: need more money because it's because safety is at risk, 234 00:14:56,459 --> 00:14:58,219 Speaker 2: they'll ask for it and the government will give it 235 00:14:58,259 --> 00:14:58,499 Speaker 2: to them. 236 00:14:58,619 --> 00:15:04,579 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Derek, You're welcome. That's it for 237 00:15:04,659 --> 00:15:07,778 Speaker 1: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 238 00:15:07,819 --> 00:15:11,899 Speaker 1: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzid Herald 239 00:15:12,099 --> 00:15:15,659 Speaker 1: dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by 240 00:15:15,819 --> 00:15:18,859 Speaker 1: Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who was also our editor. 241 00:15:19,499 --> 00:15:23,739 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 242 00:15:23,979 --> 00:15:26,699 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on 243 00:15:26,859 --> 00:15:29,419 Speaker 1: Monday for another look behind the headlines.