1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,080
Speaker 1: Tin Aqua. This episode of Heaven's Helpline talks about sexual

2
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: assault of boys, but there's not too much graphic detail.

3
00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,039
Speaker 1: There's also one reference to suicide. Details of support services

4
00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 1: are in the show notes.

5
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 2: I'm recording.

6
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 3: I think maybe you should do a little just improved.

7
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:19,319
Speaker 4: So now I'm calling.

8
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So now I'm calling. So I understand

9
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 2: it's definitely a member of the church. He's a lawyer

10
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, and I understand that he's worked for

11
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 2: the helpline. Yes, So before actually trying the LDS Churches

12
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,560
Speaker 2: New Zealand Abuse Helpline, there are a few other calls

13
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 2: I needed to make first. My producer Adam has the

14
00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,159
Speaker 2: job of pressing record, so let's give him a call

15
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,120
Speaker 2: in and see what he has to say.

16
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:46,680
Speaker 5: We didn't recognize the number.

17
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 3: You don't, Please check it and try again.

18
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,080
Speaker 2: I found names of some of the people who may

19
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,279
Speaker 2: be lawyers for New Zealand's Abuse Helpline, and I want

20
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 2: to give them the opportunity to talk about their work

21
00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 2: for the church. But I'm not having a one hundred

22
00:00:59,040 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 2: percent hit rate.

23
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 6: Thomas Culiar, I'm sorry, I'm not able to take your call.

24
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,199
Speaker 6: I'm probably in court or a meeting.

25
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,320
Speaker 2: Oh cain, no chat with Thomas Sutcliffe barrister today. I've

26
00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,840
Speaker 2: got another name here though, Okay, now calling Josh Suaw.

27
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,959
Speaker 2: He's represented the church, so he may well have knowledge

28
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 2: of the helpline and have worked in it himself. Sure shrieking,

29
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 2: Hi there, mister Shaw. Yes, Hi, it's Sir Mary Jones here,

30
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,920
Speaker 2: calling from the New Zealand Herald. Hello, there's a few

31
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 2: pleasant trees, and I explain I've been investigating the church,

32
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,039
Speaker 2: and then we get to it. I was wondering if

33
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,800
Speaker 2: you'd ever taken calls for the help line.

34
00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:40,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

35
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 2: I can't give you any comment without the church's agreement,

36
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,319
Speaker 2: so I can't give you any on the record comments

37
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 2: but anything. Is it true the help line is answered

38
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,160
Speaker 2: by a lawyers rather than social workers. I say, I

39
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 2: can't say anything on behalf of the church. I mean

40
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 2: we go round in circles for a bit. I've got

41
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 2: questions that need answers. Reporting out of the US suggests

42
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 2: that the help is all about protecting the church and

43
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,960
Speaker 2: not about protecting victims. As a member of the church yourself,

44
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,800
Speaker 2: do you feel that's a fair characterization? But Josh sure

45
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,079
Speaker 2: isn't budging. In the end, we agree that I'll send

46
00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 2: a follow up email. Thank you very much, thank you. Okay, Early,

47
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 2: he was same answer for every question, which was no answer.

48
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,000
Speaker 7: But it's just that it's quite a disciplined approach to

49
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 7: the sort of stuff. They don't want people just talking

50
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 7: off the cuff, which I guess the entire point of

51
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 7: the helpline is that they don't want anyone talking off

52
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 7: the cuffy about anything.

53
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,520
Speaker 2: But enough calls to lawyers, it's time to bite the bullet.

54
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 2: If I want to find out for sure where the

55
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 2: abuse helpline goes, who answers it, and what advice they

56
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 2: give to bishops, I'm going to have to call it myself.

57
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,800
Speaker 2: I'm Murray Jones. You're listening to Heaven's Helpline and I

58
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,799
Speaker 2: am literally ringing the helpline, Tom speaking Hi? There is

59
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 2: this what's the LDS Church abuse Helpline? Yes, we are

60
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,959
Speaker 2: speaking to This is Murray Jones. I'm a journalist with

61
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 2: the New Zealand Herald.

62
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm not talking to you, okay.

63
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 2: So do all the course go through to you, Tom? Well,

64
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 2: that's pretty clear. So that was Tom Suckcliffe, the barrister

65
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,240
Speaker 2: whose number I'd already called directly but only got voicemail,

66
00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 2: and he's confirmed that he's answering the abuse helpline. But

67
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 2: also we've confirmed that the New Zealand help line goes

68
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 2: directly to a lawyer's cell phone, no switchboard, no please

69
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,160
Speaker 2: state your Mormon emergency or anything, just Thomas Suckcliffe, barrister.

70
00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 2: And you'll remember from the last episode that's crucially important

71
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 2: for the church's helpline system because it means as soon

72
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 2: as a bishop learns of abuse, before they've spoken to

73
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 2: anyone else, they are receiving instructions from a church lawyer,

74
00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 2: and that conversation is entirely confidential. So having identified myself

75
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 2: up front as a journalist, I'll never know what Thomas

76
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 2: Sutcliffe might have said to me if I'd been a

77
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,120
Speaker 2: bishop calling to report a case of abuse in my ward.

78
00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,720
Speaker 2: But nevill Rocco, the lawyer who has a high level

79
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 2: insider in the Australian Church, which is run out of

80
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 2: the Pacific Head Office in Auckland, he has a really

81
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,880
Speaker 2: good idea of how it could have gone.

82
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:33,040
Speaker 8: From discussions with many leaders and ex leaders and ex

83
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 8: members of the church. The advice they are given generally,

84
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 8: he's handle problem. Ch'll it off, get the victim to figures,

85
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,840
Speaker 8: and not involve the police at all.

86
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,560
Speaker 2: Helplines are fine in principle, says Neville.

87
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 8: The problem, as I said, is there has never ever

88
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 8: been a hotline for victims.

89
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 2: He's dead right. The Mormon Church has never offered a

90
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:06,240
Speaker 2: helpline or hotline for abuse victims. Funny thing, though, there

91
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,120
Speaker 2: is one case of abuse in the Mormon Church that

92
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,280
Speaker 2: became quite notorious in New Zealand, where a different institution

93
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,240
Speaker 2: set up a helpline for abuse victims. And it turns

94
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 2: out that when you do that, when you set up

95
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 2: a helpline that can be called by victims or witnesses,

96
00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 2: things can go very differently.

97
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,200
Speaker 6: They said, I think I've got something to report.

98
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,239
Speaker 5: The time Mormons is she warned church leaders about Taylor.

99
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 4: It still haunts us to this day.

100
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 2: Episode five, another helpline. On a miserable, rainy day, my

101
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 2: other producer Kirsten, and I drive an hour or so

102
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,800
Speaker 2: west of Kelly Kelly, in the very north of New Zealand,

103
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 2: down windy roads that soon become gravel.

104
00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 3: You have arrived.

105
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 2: We pull up a group of houses off the side

106
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,080
Speaker 2: of the rural road where a couple of dogs, one

107
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 2: Harry McClary and one Hercules Morse come out to greet us.

108
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:18,359
Speaker 3: Sorry, can you put him your He is living his

109
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,160
Speaker 3: best life. He'll chase the horses and the cows.

110
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,680
Speaker 2: And we've come to meet Doug and on a heater,

111
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 2: two members of the Olds Church of Kaitaire.

112
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you could introduce yourself and tell us how

113
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 1: you came.

114
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,480
Speaker 6: And I don't even know where we are holding her. Well,

115
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,360
Speaker 6: my name is Doug Graves and I come from Toronto, Canada,

116
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 6: and I joined the church in ninety five ninety six,

117
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 6: and I had been married, but I was now divorced.

118
00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,679
Speaker 6: The church had a website called LDS Singles. I didn't

119
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 6: go through the catalog very far and came across Santahara

120
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 6: in New Zealand, and she was online here in the

121
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,640
Speaker 6: evening and I was in the morning. So I contacted

122
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 6: her and in my opening email, I told her about

123
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 6: everything of the long email and I give her my

124
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 6: whole life story because my feeling was after hearing it,

125
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,560
Speaker 6: if you're not gonna go tickle down those waters, I

126
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 6: want to know right away rather than drip feed the truth,

127
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 6: you know, because I've had a colorful bass. Let's just

128
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,040
Speaker 6: put it that way.

129
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 2: Over a couple of days with Doug, we hear all

130
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 2: about that colorful past, which could fill up a podcast

131
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 2: all on its own. His mum was an alcoholic who

132
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,720
Speaker 2: ended up at McGill University as one of the patients

133
00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 2: experimented on with lsd ECT and psychic driving funded by

134
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 2: the CIA. Doug and his brother ended up in an

135
00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,600
Speaker 2: abusive foster home in Quebec, where they were treated like slaves,

136
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 2: beaten with a nail studded strop, forced to dig for

137
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 2: potatoes and frozen earth, made to eat scraps after the

138
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,640
Speaker 2: family had eaten. As Doug says, he's been married before,

139
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,760
Speaker 2: but the most recent marriage the one that he no

140
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 2: doubt wrote to a a Hero about in nineteen ninety eight,

141
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 2: he'd been tricked into by a con artist who turned

142
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 2: out to be an actual serial killer. So, yeah, a

143
00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 2: colorful past.

144
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,760
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it. There was a shockingly terrible story

145
00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 4: from Charles.

146
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,080
Speaker 2: This is unaheerer, Herbert Graves, who's sitting across the room

147
00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,360
Speaker 2: crocheting a dog jersey. She has said she would leave

148
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,120
Speaker 2: the talking up to Doug, but she can't help herself.

149
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 2: Within minutes she's on mic.

150
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 4: Oh, but there were some very traumatic things that had

151
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:50,440
Speaker 4: happened in it.

152
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 2: Naherer appreciated Doug's honesty.

153
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,120
Speaker 4: Well, I wasn't his first wife, wasn't his second wife?

154
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 2: Or did or I was his fifth?

155
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 4: And I remember saying, and I'll be your last?

156
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,320
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I just can I say. I just

157
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 6: was the marry and kind.

158
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,439
Speaker 2: When they made contact on LDS singles, Doug and Anahro

159
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,280
Speaker 2: were both well into their forties. Doug had a son

160
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,679
Speaker 2: and Anahira had a daughter.

161
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 4: I was forty six, never toought I'd get.

162
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,880
Speaker 2: Married, but this long distance relationship developed super quickly.

163
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,720
Speaker 6: We wrote every day, and we still have every email

164
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 6: we wrote each other, right from the first one, my

165
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 6: opening email. And that turned into phone calls. They had

166
00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 6: a service and Tyrontic called yap a Lot, and you

167
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 6: could pay fifty bucks a month and you could choose

168
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 6: one country and have unlimited phone calls to that country,

169
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 6: but only for an hour and length. We'd have virtual

170
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,120
Speaker 6: dates where we would quee a movie in at both

171
00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,840
Speaker 6: ends of the earth and we'd watch it together, and

172
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 6: you know, we'd take a break here and there because

173
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,880
Speaker 6: I had to because every hour it was just I

174
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 6: have to phone back.

175
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 2: This continued for a few years, but a big world

176
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,199
Speaker 2: event put their relationship in perspective.

177
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 6: Out of nowhere, this other jet comes into the other

178
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,680
Speaker 6: tower and I called her right away and I said,

179
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 6: turn your TV on. I said, there's something happening in

180
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:22,080
Speaker 6: New York.

181
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

182
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 2: With air traffic grounded in the wake of nine to eleven,

183
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 2: Doug decided it was time to make the move.

184
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 6: That kind of woke us up, and we thought, well,

185
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,600
Speaker 6: if we're gonna develop this thing into a relationship, we

186
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 6: ought to do something.

187
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 2: Doug arrived in al Taylor on Anahiro's birthday in June

188
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:40,640
Speaker 2: two thousand and two.

189
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,600
Speaker 6: Our plan was to take a drive around New Zealand

190
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 6: and we got together and I said, you know, I'm

191
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 6: not really interested in a great, big tour. Let's just

192
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,640
Speaker 6: go home. And that's what we did. And every time

193
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,640
Speaker 6: we stopped, we'd run into cousins aunties.

194
00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 1: Oh.

195
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,959
Speaker 6: I was freaked out by it. Holy cow, how many

196
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,000
Speaker 6: relatives do you have because you know, I'm from North

197
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 6: America and you maybe have a couple of cousins, but

198
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:10,280
Speaker 6: nothing like that.

199
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 2: Ana hero is descended from all the Ewi of the

200
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 2: Far North, including Nati Cahu and ter Alawa. She was

201
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,079
Speaker 2: brought up on the dairy farm here in Pawanga Land

202
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,439
Speaker 2: that belonged to her Farno, as part of the local

203
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 2: Hapu to uri Otai.

204
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,040
Speaker 4: The house I was raised in, if you go and

205
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 4: stand in there, you'll see it. It's a bit sad

206
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 4: to see it in disrepair now.

207
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 2: Anahira wasn't raised in the Mormon Church, but when she

208
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,040
Speaker 2: discovered it in her early thirties, it made so much

209
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 2: sense to her.

210
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:52,680
Speaker 4: At Matakiatoo a Kyatato line up, join up the lines

211
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,000
Speaker 4: of humanity, the deed to the dead, the living to

212
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 4: the living. In our church, we believe that the living

213
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,360
Speaker 4: can also be united and sealed with the deed. It's

214
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 4: one of the reasons I joined this church because I

215
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,840
Speaker 4: always used to be asking what about my ancestors.

216
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,440
Speaker 2: For Doug, going from metropolitan Toronto to the sleepy Far

217
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,200
Speaker 2: North of New Zealand was a bit of a culture shock,

218
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 2: but he settled in quickly, getting to know the faro

219
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,480
Speaker 2: An a Heerer's daughter Chevonne and grandson Sea especially well.

220
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 6: Chauven moved in with the Sea and so they had

221
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 6: their part of the house and we had our part

222
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 6: of the house, and we had our meals together and

223
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 6: it was really terrific.

224
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 2: And Doug also got to know Ana Heroer's congregation.

225
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 6: I remember the church people saying, well, where he's staying,

226
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,320
Speaker 6: and I said, well, I'm staying with an Air and

227
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:52,680
Speaker 6: they said, oh, brother Graves, that's true. But we had

228
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,280
Speaker 6: the willpower to see that through.

229
00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,839
Speaker 4: I basically told the person who was leading the charge

230
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 4: and that no, brother, you've got it wrong. You and

231
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,080
Speaker 4: I can't be together. But him and I find we're

232
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 4: single an adult. The check was married, so mind your

233
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:19,319
Speaker 4: own business. We married just over a month later. Church

234
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 4: was the center of our life. I had been called

235
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 4: as seminary teacher.

236
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I was the cook.

237
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 4: We were only a couple of hundred meters from the chapel.

238
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,920
Speaker 2: By that time. The couple, who initially lived in a

239
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 2: hippata after they married, were living in Kaitaya. Shivorn Anahiro's

240
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,559
Speaker 2: daughter was also a superactive member of the congregation.

241
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,440
Speaker 6: There was no activity that happened at the church with

242
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,560
Speaker 6: the youth that she hadn't you know, organized it and

243
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 6: was directing things. And Daniel as well.

244
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:50,600
Speaker 1: The two.

245
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,800
Speaker 6: The youths back then were very involved in sort of

246
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,000
Speaker 6: having some kind of a program together.

247
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you're right, and her and Daniel were sort

248
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 4: of the power house of the young single adult program.

249
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 2: Daniel Taylor the reason we've come to speak to Unahearder

250
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,560
Speaker 2: and Doug. Eventually, Daniel be found guilty in court on

251
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 2: nine charges of sexual assault against boys. But in the

252
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 2: early two thousands, he's an active and very well liked

253
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 2: member of the congregation and the wider community.

254
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 4: He had terrific networks and great networking skills. He was very,

255
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 4: very personable.

256
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 6: Yes, very popular, popular stakewide. You know, he was a

257
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,359
Speaker 6: very happy guy to be around. You never saw him depressed.

258
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,760
Speaker 6: He had a beautiful home. He had a real eye

259
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 6: for color and that sort of thing. When he threw

260
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 6: a party, it was a complete party.

261
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,960
Speaker 2: Daniel had joined the church as a teenager.

262
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 4: I think he had a genuine spiritual experience. His parents

263
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 4: were separated. They pretty much dragged themselves up him in

264
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 4: his siblings.

265
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 2: Daniel stayed with Doug Nanaherra for a few weeks following

266
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,760
Speaker 2: his mission in two thousand and five, so they got

267
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 2: to know Daniel well and came to love him. By

268
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,000
Speaker 2: this time, Daniel is in his mid twenties, pretty old

269
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 2: to be just back from his mission and on the

270
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,000
Speaker 2: hunt for a wife.

271
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,240
Speaker 4: He found it a bit difficult when he first came

272
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,200
Speaker 4: back because most of the women his life had married,

273
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 4: including my daughter, you know, so he couldn't understand that

274
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 4: things had changed.

275
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 2: But he had actually met someone while he was away.

276
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 6: There were plans they were going to get married. She

277
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 6: was an American and he went over to see her

278
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 6: and there was just nothing, no connection, No, there was nothing.

279
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 6: And he just said, I can't marry you.

280
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 4: And I said to him, how did she cope with that, Daniel?

281
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:58,320
Speaker 4: And he said, in a surprised tone, she vomited. It

282
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,440
Speaker 4: was the first time I ever seen him, Daniel, honest

283
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,160
Speaker 4: with yourself. What makes your heart beat fast? And he goes, oh,

284
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 4: I'm not gay. If it's what you mean, I said,

285
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 4: I think if you are, Daniel, you know you can't

286
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 4: go through people's lives like this.

287
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 2: A couple of years later, Daniels engaged to a divorced

288
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 2: mother of two from around Hawk's Bay. Will call her Christy.

289
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,000
Speaker 2: She was beautiful, oh gorgeous.

290
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, So they got married.

291
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 2: A lovely girl.

292
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 4: He organized the entire wedding.

293
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 2: Doug and an Ahira couldn't actually make it to the ceremony.

294
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 4: I just had a funny feeling that it wasn't that

295
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 4: his heart just wasn't in it. I didn't know all

296
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 4: the night of the wedding when they turned up at

297
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 4: our house and full wedding regalia, and she was looking like,

298
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 4: what the heck are we doing here? She said to him,

299
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 4: it's your wedding night. Your wife doesn't want to be here.

300
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 4: It wasn't long before things went pear shaped. He rang

301
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 4: me and asked me to come and pick him up,

302
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 4: and when I got there, he looked dreadful.

303
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 2: The newlyweds had gone on a romantic weekend away, but

304
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 2: it had turned as an A hero says pear shaped.

305
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 2: Long story, but it ends with Daniel yanking the handbrake

306
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,919
Speaker 2: of the moving car Christy was driving, and he jumped

307
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 2: out and ran.

308
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 4: He said, she's insane, And he said basically, he confided

309
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 4: that their sex life wasn't great, that she wanted more

310
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,359
Speaker 4: than he was willing to give.

311
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, this marriage didn't last.

312
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,920
Speaker 4: She came home and all her stuff was on the road.

313
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 6: You talk about being a ladder day saint, that's hardly

314
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 6: the right way to do things. But never mind that,

315
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 6: just as a human being, you know, do that kind

316
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 6: of a mother with two kids in a strange down

317
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 6: it was great.

318
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 4: It was some of our church sisters who found her

319
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 4: and helped her to move into a place. She stayed

320
00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 4: for the next two years until the divorce.

321
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,320
Speaker 2: At the time, Doug was Sunday School president, Elder's Korum

322
00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 2: president and Award missionary, and and a Hero was Relief

323
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 2: Society president. And Daniel it.

324
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 4: Wasn't too long after the separation became formal where they

325
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 4: called him into the young Men's presidency.

326
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 2: At the same time, Daniel was the advertising manager at

327
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 2: the local radio station, and Anaherer, by this time was

328
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,640
Speaker 2: CEO of Nati Kahu. The EWE had a show each

329
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 2: week on the radio station. One of Unaher's colleagues would

330
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: go in and pre record. Sometimes like on this night.

331
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 6: It was it Saturday, late at night too. It was

332
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 6: about ten oh.

333
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,760
Speaker 4: No, it wasn't that late. No, No, it was a

334
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 4: Saturday that the station was on automatic. It was a shutdown.

335
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,439
Speaker 2: I should just say here, Doug and and a Heer

336
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,440
Speaker 2: have a folder full of documentation, a timeline of all

337
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 2: this backed up by emails, texts, and diaries. Anyway, this

338
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 2: radio host.

339
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 6: Came into the studio and he turned on the lights

340
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 6: and there's a couch and on the couch is Daniel

341
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 6: and a young man. They sort of jumped up of flustered.

342
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: The host was disturbed by what he'd seen, so he

343
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 2: told anaher about it.

344
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,880
Speaker 4: What happened was that he came to work on Monday

345
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 4: and told me about it. Oh, okay, because he knew

346
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,120
Speaker 4: I was a member of the church, and he knew

347
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 4: Daniel was a member of the church. What he said

348
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 4: was that he was on the couch with a young

349
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 4: fellow who was definitely not sixteen, and they were sprang

350
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 4: apart and adjusting their clothes. He said, oh, really, Daniel, really.

351
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:52,640
Speaker 6: He said.

352
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 4: Then I just went into the studio to do my recording.

353
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,199
Speaker 4: But he thought about it, and he thought if he

354
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 4: had sons, and he thought, if that was my son,

355
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 4: I would want to know.

356
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 2: At this stage, annahro hands it over to Doug as

357
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,719
Speaker 2: her priesthood leader. He's the best place to deal with it.

358
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 6: And I recognized right away that this is not usual,

359
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,360
Speaker 6: and I phoned the bishop.

360
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 2: Doug tells the Bishop what he's heard and hands over

361
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 2: the contact details of the witness.

362
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 6: But other than that, I kept it completely to myself

363
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 6: because knowing that Bishop I said, he's going to get

364
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 6: right onto this thing. I'd done my duty as far

365
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 6: as that was concerned.

366
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 4: Wouldn't have been even a fortnight after Doug had taken

367
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 4: the issue to him and he said to me, look,

368
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 4: I've interviewed your colleague and I find him to be credible. Unfortunately,

369
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 4: we need to know who the young man is. Do

370
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 4: you think you could ask him to go and find

371
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 4: out who they are manners?

372
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 2: And I said no, Daniel is the radio host's boss essentially,

373
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 2: so an a hero doesn't feel comfortable asking this of him.

374
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 4: That's an alarm that should have set the red legs

375
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 4: waving Church policy should have been put in place right then,

376
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 4: but it wasn't.

377
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 2: That happened in mid twenty ten. In March twenty eleven,

378
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: there was another incident.

379
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 4: My receptionist came up and said, Boss, you need to

380
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 4: come down to the front. There's a young kid out there.

381
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 4: He's crying his eyes out once to us to ring

382
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 4: his mum. I got down to the reception area and

383
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 4: this kid was just sobbing his eyes there. She looked

384
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 4: like he was around about eight nine, maybe a bit older,

385
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 4: but that's what he looked like. And I said where

386
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 4: are you? Where are you from?

387
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: And the boy said he was from Auckland, about five

388
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: hours drive away. He told Anaherer, I.

389
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 4: Want to ring my mum. He had the number, so

390
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 4: on a hero called his mom. She was very, very brisk.

391
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 4: I can't deal with this. He's got to go back

392
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 4: to his home where he's being fostered.

393
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 2: This boy was a ward of the state.

394
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 4: You could see he understood his mother wasn't going to

395
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 4: come and rescue him. But I said to him, Darling,

396
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 4: your mom can't come and get you. Where are you staying?

397
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 4: He said just around the road. And I said you,

398
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 4: what's the name of the people you're living with? And

399
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 4: he said, he's a strange man in his name's Daniel.

400
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 4: And I thought no, so put him in my car

401
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 4: and drove him around to Daniels. Took him to the

402
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 4: door and Daniel opened the door and said, have you

403
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 4: stopped being stupid? And I am haunted to this day

404
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 4: that I turned that child back over to Daniel.

405
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 6: That's the first we knew that Daniel was a se caregiver.

406
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: Seth's was the government's child, Youth and Family services agency

407
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: known as Uranga Tamariki. Now, to become a siff's caregiver,

408
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 2: Daniel would have had to have gone through a vetting process,

409
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: police checks referees, and later siffs would confirm that someone

410
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 2: from the church was one of those referees. Around that

411
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: same time, the bishop that Doug had placed such high

412
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: hopes in left nothing to do with this story, just

413
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: personal circumstances that meant he had to travel a lot,

414
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 2: so his deputies filled in.

415
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 6: So the counselor stepped up and did the work there.

416
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 6: And one of the counselors also happened to be a

417
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 6: policeman working in Kai Taia. And I said, what's happening

418
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 6: with Daniel anyway? And he said, well, I won't let

419
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 6: my kids go off there, That's what he said to me.

420
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 6: I was cobs back, to be honest with you, I thought, no,

421
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,239
Speaker 6: I meant like going on there. I mean there has

422
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 6: to be some church discipline in there somewhere.

423
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 2: Well, surely somewhere up the ranks, someone was doing something

424
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 2: to safeguard the children of the congregation. Doug went higher

425
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: up the chain and asked the state president what was

426
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: being done.

427
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 6: And he kind of went yeah, but didn't elaborate. But

428
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 6: at least I was assured that he was aware of this.

429
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 2: June of twenty eleven and heros at work and there's

430
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: a bunch of her.

431
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 4: Colleagues gossiping around the chanting table.

432
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: And Anahira says to the radio host guy who'd seen

433
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: Daniel on the couch with the boy.

434
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 4: Hey, I see Daniel's side windows smashed, and he goes, oh, yeah,

435
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 4: he made a pass it and he named this guy

436
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 4: who's giving him a lift to Auckland and he reached

437
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 4: over to kiss his nick and he had reacted violently.

438
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 4: He jumped out and smashed the window.

439
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: To be clear, this was a young man and a hearer,

440
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: and Doug can't agree on how old, but he was

441
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: at least nineteen, so.

442
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 4: That and I did talk to Bishop about that, and

443
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 4: he just said, look, Daniel Hayes admitted that he's struggling

444
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 4: with the same six attraction. I don't thank god, thank god,

445
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 4: at least he's.

446
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 6: At least it's an adult.

447
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: Thinking about all these together, there's nothing definitively in these

448
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: incidents that Doug and Anahi have described that scream child abuse.

449
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 2: There's the guy on the couch. The witness says he's

450
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: definitely not sixteen, but no one's tracked him down, so

451
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: who knows. He might have just looked much younger than

452
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: he was. The siff's boy. He was never asked if

453
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: Daniel had molested him. He just offers that Daniel is

454
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 2: a strange man, and the guy Daniel had made an

455
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: unwelcome pass at definitely over nineteen. But Doug was pretty

456
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: certain there was more to it. Remember, Doug is someone

457
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: who did his time in an abusive foster care situation,

458
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 2: and while he was sexually abused, he reckons he's got

459
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: a good radar for when things might be a bit off.

460
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 6: There's a part of me that still identifies with kids

461
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 6: who have no voice.

462
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: So Doug became a thorn in his church leader's sides,

463
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: specifically the new bishop.

464
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 6: I wasn't gonna let that dog hole, you know, I

465
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 6: just had to find out what, like, are you aware

466
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 6: of this stuff?

467
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? The bishop was aware. Daniel was getting some counseling,

468
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: although the counseling was focused on what the church calls

469
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: same sex attraction. But Doug at least felt Daniel's behavior

470
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: was being acknowledged and dealt with by the Church. After

471
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: these incidents, there would be a close eye on Daniel.

472
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: Job done in a sense, but then.

473
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 6: Couldn't have been more than a Sunday later, the Bishop

474
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 6: was up on the podium and Anna Heer and I

475
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 6: were sitting in the chapel and he he looks at

476
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 6: the Word and he says, Daniel Taylor, will you please stand?

477
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 6: And then he turns and he looks me right in

478
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 6: the eye and he goes, Daniel Taylor, you've been called

479
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 6: as the ward seminary teacher.

480
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 4: When we are called, we are asked to stand. The

481
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 4: ward is then told this person has been found worthy

482
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 4: to be called as all those who can sustain him

483
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 4: showed by uplifted hand. Those who are against showed by

484
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 4: the same means.

485
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: And did anyone raise their hands against No.

486
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 6: I was so shocked, to be honest with you, I

487
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 6: turned to my wife and I'm looking at the bishop

488
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 6: and I am really just starting to boil inside. You know,

489
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 6: word seminary teacher. That means he's now got access to

490
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 6: all of the youth. It just don't dawned on me

491
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 6: like a like a ledge Hamer. I didn't have the

492
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 6: presence of mine to raise my hand at that time.

493
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: Would it be unusual to raise your hand against Yeah?

494
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 6: Yeah.

495
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 4: Over the next week, I approached every family with youth

496
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 4: and I told them about our concerns, and that's when

497
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 4: several of them poor their kids out of seminary.

498
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: But this exodus was short lived. Dargan and a Hero

499
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: say they know of at least one family that church

500
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: leaders pressured into returning.

501
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 4: If you don't, he will not get his arm certificate.

502
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 4: Eighty percent attendance required to part to receive a certificate,

503
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: and they inferred that he would not be able to

504
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 4: save a mission.

505
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: Seminary school, which is basically Bible study for fourteen to

506
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: eighteen year olds, is held at church every weekday morning

507
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: before school. And a Hero had been the seminary teacher

508
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: for a time. She knew the job and how it

509
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: should be done. It's there in the many church manuals.

510
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 6: Daniel is different and the teaching was being done at

511
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 6: his house and that same group was also encouraged to,

512
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 6: you know, have sleepovers.

513
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: Again, there's policy in place for this.

514
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 6: First of all, you have to let the bishop know

515
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 6: if you're going to have a sleepover, and then there

516
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 6: are strict rules. Boys in one room, girls in another room.

517
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 6: There has to be two adults, right, and of course

518
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 6: nobody sleeping with the children. These sleepovers became a regular occurrence.

519
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: How did Daniel? How was he allowed to break the rules?

520
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 6: Nobody was kept checking the rules.

521
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: Doug and Naha kept their ears wide open when they

522
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: were around their grandson and his friends, just in case.

523
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: They're joking about it, laughing about it. You know, Daniel

524
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 4: Dutchess fills people up.

525
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: They must be thinking themselves.

526
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 4: The adults know about the stuff, and nothing's happening, so

527
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 4: it must be just a joke.

528
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: At this stage, Doug has become such a squeaky wheel

529
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: about the Daniel issue that from his perspective, he's being

530
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: ostracized from the congregation by church leaders.

531
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 6: I was made to feel that get over it. You know,

532
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 6: he's getting the counseling he needs and it's all being

533
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 6: taken care of. Just get over it.

534
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: Even an a hero at this stage thinks it's a

535
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: waste of energy.

536
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 6: She very much wanted me to just let it go.

537
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 6: But if I have a feeling in my heart that

538
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 6: something isn't right, you know, I want some resolution there.

539
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: It's just becoming too close to home. Literally, after Doug

540
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: learns that his young neighbor has been invited to Daniels

541
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: for sleepovers, Doug confronts Daniel.

542
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 6: Daniel I said, look, under no conditionery yet'd go anywhere

543
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 6: near see you. I says, we're never going to let

544
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 6: him come over to your house, and you know, why

545
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 6: do you understand me? And he sat there and he

546
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 6: didn't say a worried nothing. He just sat there with

547
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 6: a stone face, and then he got up and left.

548
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: Sure the church leadership didn't take any steps to limit

549
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: Daniel's access to children. They actually gave him more responsibility.

550
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: He was made a High Counselor, which meant that he

551
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: was required to travel and engage with church youth all

552
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: over Northland. It's mid twenty twelve and it's been a

553
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: full two years since the incident at the radio station,

554
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: and over one year since the day Anaher returned a

555
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: young boy in Siff's care to Daniel's store, and all

556
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: this time Doug and an Ahira have been trying to

557
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: alert people to their concerns. The conversations with one Kaitaia

558
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: bishop and then another the conversations with other parents about

559
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: being wary at the seminary class. Nothing seems to have worked,

560
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: but then an unusual opportunity presents itself. It starts with

561
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: some shocking news in August twenty twelve that brings Katya

562
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: to the attention of national media.

563
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 5: The lawyer for the Kaitia Deputy Principle is the police

564
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 5: warned the school three years ago about the man having

565
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 5: sleepovers with students at his house.

566
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: These were different sleepovers. Teacher James Parker was arrested and

567
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: later admitted seventy four charges of sexual abuse against twenty

568
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: different boys.

569
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 6: I was following the James Parker case and the paper

570
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 6: and they had a hotline at the very end.

571
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: As part of the investigation. An eight hundred hotline was

572
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: set up. The police were asking for any tips from

573
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: anyone who might know anything more about Parker's offending. And

574
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: when Doug saw the hotline in that article.

575
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 6: I just made my mind up, sitting there in our

576
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 6: backyard and I said, I've got to do this, and

577
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 6: so I went right into my office and I called

578
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 6: the heartline and I said, I think I've got something

579
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 6: to report.

580
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: Finally, Doug takes his concerns outside of the church, and

581
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: when Doug called this hotline set up by police, things

582
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: changed quickly. James Parker had been a deputy principal at

583
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: a local school and a prolific pedophile, and now police

584
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: are building a case against him. There's an eight hundred

585
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: hot line for people to call if they have any

586
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: more information. So this was the hot line that Doug called,

587
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: not to give a report about Parker, but to share

588
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: his suspicions about the sleepovers happening just down the road,

589
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: the ones at Daniel Taylor's house.

590
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 6: And I said, I think I've got something to report,

591
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 6: but it's not James Parker, and I could feel just

592
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 6: the relief coming off my shoulders.

593
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 4: You range me and tell me you've done it.

594
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: It's just over a month before Daniel is arrested. During

595
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 2: that time, SIFs revoke Daniel's status as a caregiver. Police

596
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: will later tell the New Zealand Herald that Daniel was

597
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: making plans to flee to Australia and at the same

598
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: time he's doing damage control at church.

599
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 4: Already he was manipulating the narrative with members of our

600
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 4: church who continued to support them, possibly support them to

601
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 4: this day.

602
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something I've found quite fascinating about the

603
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: Daniel Taylor case. Even once he'd been arrested, even as

604
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 2: all the accounts of what he'd done to numerous children

605
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: started to come out, he's still got a lot of

606
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: support from some people in the church. And maybe that

607
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 2: makes some sense.

608
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 4: So this is a man who has done a lot

609
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: of good things with them, some fun things, and has

610
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 4: been an exemplier and a modeltist some of them. You know,

611
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 4: there is an incredible amount of confusion. How do you

612
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 4: reconcile these two people?

613
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: But also there's something uncomfortably familiar about this, because it's

614
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: something I've heard in my interviews with Caroline and with Jade,

615
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: with Neville and with John. There seems to be a

616
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: very strong impulse for members of the Mormon community to

617
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: side with the abuser. And this isn't just about bishops

618
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 2: and state presidents. Remember how Jade said that when her

619
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: abusive husband returned to his ward in another city, it

620
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: was almost like the community there went out of its

621
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: way to build up his manner, to forgive and forget,

622
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 2: almost to celebrate the sinner for returning to the right path.

623
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, the victim seems to be ignored or overlooked

624
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: or even blamed.

625
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 9: A Kai Tai, a businessman and foster appearance charged with

626
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 9: abusing young boys, will remain in jail over Christmas. Daniel Taylor,

627
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 9: who was an elder in the Mormon Church and a child,

628
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 9: youth and family caregivers, facing twenty two charges of sexual

629
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 9: assault on boys. He applied for electronic bail, but Judge

630
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 9: John McDonald refused it he sees mister Taylor is facing

631
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 9: serious charges involving children, including one who had been in

632
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 9: his custiners.

633
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: As the months passed and Daniel remained in custody, there

634
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: was a real range of reactions in Kaitaya. Some women

635
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: in the ward arranged a series of WHOI open meetings

636
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: and put some hard questions to church leaders.

637
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 4: How could you put your relationship with Daniel in your

638
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 4: subject of judgment over and above the safety of our children?

639
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: And Doug heard from people who had stories things like

640
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: seeing Daniel in a car with a boy that now

641
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: made more sense to them. But at the same time,

642
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: Doug grew increasingly frustrated with what he saw as a

643
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: kind of save Daniel Taylor movement in the congregation.

644
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 6: There were definitely those people who were very vocal and

645
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 6: saying that he was not guilty, that somehow the victims

646
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 6: themselves had been cajoled or had been guided, you know,

647
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 6: towards making these accusations against Daniel.

648
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Some of these people were lobbying to have Daniel released

649
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: before his trial.

650
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 6: Petitioning the court to have Daniel released to their homes

651
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 6: on bail. With multiple youth in our ward stumbling around broken,

652
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 6: you know, and nobody was talking to them.

653
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 4: One of the things that struck me was the silence

654
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 4: from the pulpit. The message should have clearly been given,

655
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 4: our youth are precious and thank you to those of

656
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 4: you who came forward. Instead, we had an incident.

657
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,959
Speaker 2: Daniel had been in jail awaiting trial for about six

658
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: months at this stage.

659
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 4: First Sunday of the month is always fast and testimony,

660
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 4: and this particular sister who had staunchly defended Daniel, got

661
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 4: up to bear her testimony and said very tearfully that

662
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: she visited our brother in jail and looked down at

663
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 4: these three boys and said, and he forgives you. I

664
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 4: did stand up Da Tarma No.

665
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: Stopped some context here. Those three boys were brothers and

666
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: was some of Taylor's victims. Eventually, Taylor would plead guilty

667
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 2: to nine charges of sexual offending against boys, including one

668
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 2: who'd been in his care. He was sentenced to five

669
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: years and seven months in prison.

670
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 4: That woman who stood and said, you know he forgives you.

671
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 4: She was convinced that he only confessed just to get

672
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 4: it over and done with and will relieve you boys

673
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 4: of the burden of having to testify. After Daniel was arrested,

674
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 4: another member came forward to me and disclosed that in

675
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: two thousand and seven, after Daniel had got back from

676
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 4: his mission, he had molested her son and she had

677
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 4: taken it to the bishopric at that time, and they

678
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 4: had basically fobbed her off. She said it wasn't until

679
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 4: charges against Daniel had made public that they had felt

680
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 4: able to hear and her husband had felt able to

681
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 4: go to the police.

682
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: So what impact did Taylor's offending have. One boy said

683
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: he had felt confused and disgusted by Taylor's assaults and

684
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: became withdrawn from friends in school. Another said he was

685
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: abused by Taylor for years and he often felt a

686
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: sense of guilt. One teenager wrote, even though I threatened

687
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: him with violence. He still kept trying to touch me.

688
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: I hate him for what he did to me. Another

689
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: boy said he was embarrassed and didn't want to tell

690
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: anyone because he was afraid they would think he was gay.

691
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: Yet another victim said he had considered hanging himself to

692
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: escape Taylor, who had been his caregiver. The sentencing judge

693
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: said Daniel showed a lack of insight into his offending

694
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 2: and a lack of empathy for his victims. They said

695
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 2: they were not convinced of Taylor's remorse, and noted that

696
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 2: his apology letters to his victims were all identical a

697
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 2: single sentence with the sign off regards The LDS Church

698
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: issued a statement at the time saying it has zero

699
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: tolerance for abuse of any kind. Doug and Nanahira are

700
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 2: a pretty extraordinary couple of people. It's remarkable that Doug

701
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: blew the whistle on Taylor, but it's also remarkable that

702
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: afterwards Hearer chose to speak up and directly criticize her

703
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: church's leadership in the media whilst still remaining a member.

704
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: It's a testament really to her manna both within and

705
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 2: beyond the church.

706
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 5: Oka Mormon and Nasi Carho chief executive Anahiro Herbert Grave

707
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 5: says she warned church leaders about Taylor that they responded

708
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 5: by giving him even more responsibility for teenagers.

709
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: When she spoke to Ironzed in late twenty thirteen after

710
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: Daniel Taylor's conviction, there was disquiet from leaders in her ward,

711
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 2: but Anaherer told them she wasn't speaking on behalf of

712
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 2: the church.

713
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 4: I said, now make sure I'm speaking clearly as an individual.

714
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: Ana Heer wasn't going to be silenced anymore.

715
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 4: When I look at all of the leaders and the

716
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 4: adults who, including myself, who failed, we all had experiences

717
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 4: in our lives which caused us to reprecate a pettern

718
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 4: of behavior that we'd have seen dane in our own lives.

719
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: I know all of these people, while they failed, they

720
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 4: are not evil. There's an institutional deficit that allows these

721
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 4: things to continue to happen if we don't learn from it.

722
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 4: There now there's more and more generations of victims lining up.

723
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 2: Just because on a hero is a critic though, doesn't

724
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: mean she wants to leave her church.

725
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 4: You know, as we talk, I think to myself, why

726
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 4: am I still in this church? And for me, I

727
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 4: flip it like this. I've run into this kind of

728
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 4: thing all throughout my life. I ain't leaving. I haven't

729
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 4: done a jolly thing wrong. The only way I leave

730
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 4: is churches if I'm kicked out. I think I'm an

731
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 4: advocate by nature. There's very little that I'm afraid of.

732
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 4: Probably my biggest fear is to stand before my two

733
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 4: winner and for them to say you had the ability,

734
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 4: you were given that gift, and you didn't use it.

735
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: For Doug, though, the whole Daniel Taylor thing was just

736
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: one test of faith too far. He tried to tell

737
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: his church superiors that there was a problem, and they

738
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: simply wouldn't deal with it. So eventually he picked up

739
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: the phone and called the right kind of helpline. He

740
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: did what someone should have done long before.

741
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 6: If I hadn't gone to the police, Daniel might still

742
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 6: be an active member of the church.

743
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: Doug doesn't go to church anymore. His trust has been broken.

744
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 6: We all I did was what I was supposed to do.

745
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 6: I told my bishop.

746
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: I told my bishop, it's simply beyond doubt. The LDS

747
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: Church has an abuse problem, the LDS Church has an

748
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: abuse reporting problem, and frankly, there don't seem to be

749
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: enough dougs out there who were willing to call it

750
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 2: out and ring the other helpline, the one that's answered

751
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: by a police officer, not a church lawyer. In the

752
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: next and final episode, will meet some of the people

753
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 2: who reckon there's a way out of this. Is it reformable?

754
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 6: Yes, but somebody is gonna have to put the hit

755
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 6: above the paracos.

756
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: To people inside and outside the church who started to

757
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: fight back.

758
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 5: We have a culture that really does allow abuse to flourish.

759
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: And we'll ask this. As the church keeps denying it

760
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: has a problem. Is it time to stop waiting for

761
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: it to do the right thing?

762
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 5: Who does my silence benefit?

763
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: We sought comment from the church in response to the

764
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: allegations in this episode. The church did not address the

765
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 2: allegations directly, but in a statement said, as followers of

766
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, members of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter

767
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 2: day Saints a poor abuse of any As a church,

768
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 2: we invest heavily on prevention and response and will continue

769
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: to do so. In the church. Any who serve as

770
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: youth leaders with children need to complete child protection training

771
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: to help them safeguard young people. This training includes instruction

772
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: for those working with children to immediately report abuse to

773
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: legal authorities and do all they can to assist victims

774
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: of abuse. Heaven's Helpline was funded by New Zealand on

775
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 2: Air and the New Zealand Herald for enzed me and iHeartRadio.

776
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 2: It was researched, written and presented by me Murray Jones.

777
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: My producers were Adam Dudding, who co wrote the series,

778
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: and Kirsten Johnston from Pop Sop Media, who edited and

779
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: sound designed it. Phil Brownlee is our sound engineer. Music

780
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 2: was by Thomas Arbur and Anita Clark. Archival audio came

781
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 2: from TVNZED and RNZ Sales is executive producer here at

782
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: New Zealand Herald. If you have a story you'd like

783
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: to share with me about the LDS Church, or just

784
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: want to get in touch, email me securely at Murray

785
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: Reports at Proton dot m E or dm me on

786
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 2: X at Murray Reports. And for more on this podcast,

787
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 2: head to nzedherld dot co dot nz slash Heaven's Helpline.

788
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: It's time intensive doing investigations like this, so if you

789
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: value this kind of journalism, please support it by going

790
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 2: to your podcast platform and rating and reviewing the series