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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time from all the Attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the sis, now the

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Speaker 1: Leighton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast three hundred and twelve for November twenty six,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. Eighteen months ago. John Elcock was on

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Speaker 2: this podcast and he was talking cbdc's and bitcoin in particular,

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Speaker 2: and it was a very interesting exercise. I'm often asked

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Speaker 2: what podcast was this particular guest in, whoever it might be.

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Speaker 2: My suggestion is it's very simple to find out. You

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Speaker 2: type in my name, type in the guest's name, and bingo,

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Speaker 2: you'll come up with it. In this case with John Elcott,

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Speaker 2: it was number two hundred and thirty four on April ten,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. What produced itself on the screen was

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Speaker 2: a different site that I'd never heard of. So this

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Speaker 2: podcast is going out and numerous sites in the end

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Speaker 2: they get filtered out. Don't ask me how it works,

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Speaker 2: but it seems to work quite satisfactorily. And the name

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Speaker 2: of the site was Voice Media What interested me was

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Speaker 2: that they had room for comment and there were three comments.

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Speaker 2: One the first one was very long one. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to read it, but I will quote you something

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Speaker 2: from it. We need to take power back to the regions,

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Speaker 2: managed as a burrow by people voted in and funded

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Speaker 2: by the region. All would be run as a business

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Speaker 2: with total transparency, and anyone not following the people's dictates

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Speaker 2: would be removed at any time. And it goes on

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Speaker 2: a little but I'm mentioning that for the simple reason

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Speaker 2: that after the announcement yesterday with regard to the restructuring

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Speaker 2: of councils, this sounds like it is on track. We

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Speaker 2: have to wait and see how it falls in place.

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Speaker 2: But the letter that really deserves commentary came from i

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Speaker 2: n R Independent Newsround. This is a very interesting podcast

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Speaker 2: broadcast April ten, twenty twenty four. This is very relevant

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Speaker 2: and current. Make sure that you listen to this one.

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Speaker 2: And there's lots to unpack the rollout and how this

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Speaker 2: government will allegedly roll the CBDC out makes sense and

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Speaker 2: you can see it coming. And there is not a

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Speaker 2: time left well, that's what it says, not a time

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Speaker 2: left well. In today's podcast John Alcock brings us up

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Speaker 2: to date and things are moving ahead at quite a pace. Also,

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Speaker 2: as a result of that, I went through some other procedures,

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Speaker 2: pulled a book off my shelf that I have had

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Speaker 2: since its publication. Now I have a confession to make

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Speaker 2: on it. I've not read it properly at all, and

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Speaker 2: he glanced at it from time to time. It was

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Speaker 2: published in twenty eleven, written by John Fonte, or doctor

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Speaker 2: John Fonte if you like, who is a senior fellow

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Speaker 2: and director. Well, this was at the time he wrote it,

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Speaker 2: Senior Fellow and director of the Center for American Common

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Speaker 2: Culture at the Hudson Institute. His writing has been published

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Speaker 2: in the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, Israel, and Latin America.

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Speaker 2: And he's appeared on CNNMSNBC, BBC France twenty four and

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of others. I'll just quote you from

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Speaker 2: the inside flap because it says all that's necessary. Keep

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Speaker 2: in mind, this is twenty eleven. The twenty first century

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Speaker 2: will witness an epic struggle between the forces of global

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Speaker 2: governance and the American constitutional democracy. Doesn't have to be American,

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Speaker 2: it just is. Because he is, and he's writing at

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Speaker 2: in America. You can substitute New Zealand for that. Transnationalists

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Speaker 2: in the United Nations and in the European Union, but

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Speaker 2: more importantly, among leading elites in America are seeking to

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Speaker 2: establish a global rule of life law quote unquote. The

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Speaker 2: more sophisticated transnationalists realize that their goal could be achieved

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Speaker 2: only through America's voluntary submission to global legal authority. Voluntary

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Speaker 2: submission presented to the American people in Orwellian fashion as

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Speaker 2: leadership and engagement in sovereignty or submission. John Fonte reveals

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Speaker 2: how this troubling and fast rising movement aims to subordinate

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Speaker 2: American sovereignty. The global governance movement does not seek legitimacy

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Speaker 2: in democracy, but rather in its own partisan interpretation of

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Speaker 2: human rights. The US Constitution, globalists argue must conform to

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Speaker 2: evolving norms of international laws. The global governance project may

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Speaker 2: be utopian, but the efforts to implement it constitute a

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Speaker 2: very real threat to American democracy. As this movement spreads

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Speaker 2: its influence over mainstream elite opinion democrats, decision making is

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Speaker 2: likely to be increasingly curtailed. As it is today in

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Speaker 2: the European Union. Whichever side prevails, in the long run,

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Speaker 2: the conflict between global governance and democratic sovereignty will be

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Speaker 2: at the heart of world politics as far into the

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Speaker 2: future as the eye can see. Well twenty eleven to

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, and I think we've had plenty of

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Speaker 2: evidence of the accuracy of what John Fonte wrote in

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Speaker 2: Sovereignty or Submission. Now. As a result of that, I

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Speaker 2: couldn't help myself and I had a quick browse through

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Speaker 2: well not through, but at the publication dates of a

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Speaker 2: number of books on banks and banking, like The Downfall

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Speaker 2: of Money, The Fed, The Curse of Cash, and a

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Speaker 2: bunch of others. All of them were published before twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: going back to the early two thousands, eleven, twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen was the most recent, I think, and not

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Speaker 2: one of them in their index at the back. Not

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Speaker 2: one of them had any reference to digital currency. So

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Speaker 2: we can see from that that it is a very

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Speaker 2: recent phenomena. Might have been in the planet stages for longer,

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Speaker 2: but it's coming forward with a rush, and the details

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Speaker 2: that John is going to convey are worthy of hearing

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Speaker 2: without question. So after a short break, John Elcock. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and at the back end of podcast three hundred and

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Speaker 2: twelve is more of interest and I'll tell you about

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Speaker 2: it then. Leverix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to

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Speaker 2: the highest quality. Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies

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Speaker 2: or itchy skin. It's a dual action antihistamine and has

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Speaker 2: a unique nasal decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief,

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Speaker 2: and it works in under an hour and lasts for

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Speaker 2: over twenty four hours. Leverrix is a tiny tablet that

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Speaker 2: unblocks the nose, deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing.

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Speaker 2: Leverrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality.

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Speaker 2: So next time you're in need of an effective antihistamine,

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Speaker 2: call into the pharmacy and ask for Leverix l e

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Speaker 2: v Rix Leverrix and always read the label. Takes directed

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Speaker 2: and if symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker

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Speaker 2: Auckland Laton Smith. Now are most of you listening, The

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Speaker 2: name John Lcock will be familiar. It was eighteen months

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Speaker 2: ago that we spoke with him, not just once, but twice.

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Speaker 2: The second time was two weeks later. And the reason

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Speaker 2: for that was he created such an interest and so

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Speaker 2: many questions came into me that the best way to

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Speaker 2: deal with it was to get him back on to explain.

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Speaker 2: And in case you are unfamiliar with it, it was

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Speaker 2: bitcoin based and it had had a hell of a

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Speaker 2: lot of people intrigued. I was intrigued. But it went

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Speaker 2: further than that. It got the conversation traveled over a

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Speaker 2: number of road humps, starting with central bank digital currencies

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Speaker 2: and the like. So it was a world worthwhile excursion

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Speaker 2: spending two podcasts with him in such quick succession. John,

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Speaker 2: Good to see you again.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, Lead and thanks very much for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: You wrote to me, and you've probably written to some

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Speaker 2: others as well, but you wrote to me just a

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Speaker 2: couple of days ago. You pointed out some things that

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Speaker 2: are now in play when it comes to the banking system,

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Speaker 2: and it's an extension of what we discussed previously. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. Why don't you start with the

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Speaker 2: with the conference that you were at just very recently.

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Speaker 2: Not only were you at the conference, you were you

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Speaker 2: were a host along with the along with the police

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Speaker 2: for this conference with over five hundred people attending and

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Speaker 2: you were a coordinator of it also.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So this is the conference that I host annually

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Speaker 3: in conjunction with the New Zealand Police Financial Intelligence Unit.

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Speaker 3: I do this entirely voluntarily because I think the work

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Speaker 3: that they do is actually quite important preventing human slavery,

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Speaker 3: child sex, trafficking, fraud and scams along those kind of lines.

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Speaker 3: And I organize that with them every year. It's usually

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Speaker 3: beginning go remember, third, fourth and fifth. It is the

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Speaker 3: largest anti financial crime conference in the entire Asia Pacific region.

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Speaker 3: Now more than five hundred and seventy nine attendees plus

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Speaker 3: being broadcast in broadrooms, financial service providers, banks, everybody around

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Speaker 3: the entire country Singapore, all around the as.

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Speaker 2: Of Pacific regions, any idea how many were tuned it?

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Speaker 3: More than five hundred and eighty. We packed out every

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Speaker 3: single seat in the Tiquina Events Center on our floor.

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Speaker 3: We are actually going to have to move the wall

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Speaker 3: next year to make room for more people. That's how

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Speaker 3: popular it is.

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Speaker 2: This was in Wellington, in Wellington here, right, So what's

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Speaker 2: the purse? Well, you've said what it covers, So what

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Speaker 2: came out of it? This year?

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Speaker 3: We always get a lot of new typologies. We always

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Speaker 3: include the latest advancements in AI. We have a fantastic

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Speaker 3: financial intelligence unit with the police here who are very

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Speaker 3: open up about showing us actual case studies where they

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Speaker 3: have used financial data to track down really horrific criminals,

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Speaker 3: including people involved in obscene quantities of child pornographic material,

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Speaker 3: people who are frauds and scams, stealing money from everybody

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Speaker 3: around the country, people that are involved with with financial crime,

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Speaker 3: drug dealing, those kind of things. We also talked about

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Speaker 3: the implications of AI and how that is going to

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Speaker 3: affect our lives, particularly with respect to digital identities, and

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Speaker 3: how we can use and manage those in a reasonable

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Speaker 3: and rational way, preferably not a centralized way. We also

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Speaker 3: had updates from all of the sector supervisors for the

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Speaker 3: last time, so that is the Reserve Bank of New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: the Financial Markets Authority, and the Department of Internal Affairs,

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Speaker 3: who up until this year have always supervised their own

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Speaker 3: sectors of the financial services market. The Reserve Bank obviously,

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Speaker 3: the banks, the Financial Markets Authority obviously people who deal

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Speaker 3: in financial markets but who are not financial service providers themselves,

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Speaker 3: and the Department of Internal Affairs who look after all

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Speaker 3: financial service providers.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying that they run their own game.

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Speaker 3: We run it for them on purpose, because it's very

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Speaker 3: important to have that community engagement with the people who

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Speaker 3: are providing guidance around this area and who are enforcing

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Speaker 3: these laws.

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Speaker 2: That they were independent, they were independent, and now you're

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Speaker 2: saying they're not.

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Speaker 3: They're no longer independent. They are now all managed by

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Speaker 3: the Department of Internal Affairs. We have moved to a

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Speaker 3: single supervisor model and now everything, the banks, all the

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Speaker 3: financial service providers, everyone is now managed by a single supervisor,

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Speaker 3: which does bring us in line with sort of global norms,

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Speaker 3: which is a little bit scary, but it is definitely

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Speaker 3: not something that all of these supervisors agree on. And

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Speaker 3: some of the senior officials said some pretty spicy things

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Speaker 3: on stage, which I love because it generates more interest

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Speaker 3: for the conference.

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Speaker 2: And what was the result of that, then there.

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Speaker 3: Was a bit of a conflict between senior members from

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Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank have been doing anti financial crime work

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Speaker 3: for a very long time and the approach that they

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Speaker 3: would prefer us to take, which in my opinion, is

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Speaker 3: the correct approach and is far more pragmatic and way

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Speaker 3: less invasive than what is currently happening. The Department of

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Speaker 3: Eternal Fairs disagrees they would like to take a more

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Speaker 3: invasive approach, and I think this is where we're sort

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Speaker 3: of headed.

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Speaker 2: So who makes that decision the.

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Speaker 3: Head of these departments? I'm I'm not sure I should

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Speaker 3: name drive directly, but I'd be happy to put you

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Speaker 3: in touch with them, and maybe there's an interview there

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Well. What I meant was, I wasn't really looking for names,

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Speaker 2: I was looking for positions or is it going to

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Speaker 2: be a bureaucratic decision or a political decision?

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Speaker 3: It appears to me to be a political decision being

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Speaker 3: maneuvered in the background. The new heads of these departments

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Speaker 3: are they have sort of come from nowhere. They haven't

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Speaker 3: really been in the game very long. I would have

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Speaker 3: seen them at the conference that I've been descending since

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Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, that I've been organizing since twenty twenty. That've

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Speaker 3: sort of popped up a a left wing from what

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Speaker 3: I can tell, and we've had a lot of resignations

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Speaker 3: as a result of these appointments. Some of the senior

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Speaker 3: people who I've interviewed on stage, who I would consider

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Speaker 3: to be much more qualified for those positions have been

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Speaker 3: shifted sideways into other departments, have resigned, have moved on

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Speaker 3: to other jobs for private organizations, some of them in

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Speaker 3: other countries. These are all former speakers. So it appears

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Speaker 3: to be that there's some political machinations happening here.

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Speaker 2: Manipulation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it does in a direction that I don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: approve of. I tend to agree with the former heads

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Speaker 3: of these departments.

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Speaker 2: So I'm thinking of I'm thinking of a reaction to

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Speaker 2: that comment that you just made that you don't approve of.

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Speaker 2: And I can hear some people thinking, at least you

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Speaker 2: can hear people think sometimes that, well, what's it got

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Speaker 2: to do with you? What's it matter to you? If

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Speaker 2: if these decisions are being made at a shall we say,

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Speaker 2: a superior level, why should you care? Really?

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Speaker 3: So, I suppose that brings in me into what happened

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Speaker 3: two nights ago when I tried to log into my

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Speaker 3: ban zed digital banking app mobile banking app and was

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Speaker 3: immediately confronted with a new notification with only one option

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Speaker 3: of accept that informed me that the BENZ was now

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Speaker 3: going to collect extreme amounts of biometric data about me,

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Speaker 3: including my fingerprints. How I tap on the phone, my

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Speaker 3: typing speed, my typing errors, my patterns of typing, every

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Speaker 3: single application that is installed on my phone for Android users,

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Speaker 3: Apple users, you seem to have scaped that one. And

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Speaker 3: this is going to be used to create a biometric

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Speaker 3: digital identity using behavioral patterns of how I interact with

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Speaker 3: my mobile and internet banking on my computer.

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Speaker 2: Are you suggesting this was targeted at you?

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Speaker 3: No, not at all. This is a generic position that

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Speaker 3: the Benz and a Z have put out. It is

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Speaker 3: not targeted directly at me. It will affect everybody individually

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Speaker 3: as they sort of roll it out to your mobile

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Speaker 3: banking apps. But they're probably just doing it in stages.

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Speaker 3: But I do not think this is specifically targeted to

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Speaker 3: me in any way. It is coming for us.

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Speaker 2: All. Well, this is a continuation, I guess, an extension

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Speaker 2: of what we discussed eighteen months ago.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And I'm trying to remember what you said about when

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Speaker 2: these moves would be made in your opinion, and I

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Speaker 2: think you're pretty much on target.

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Speaker 3: I think I said one to three years. Here we

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Speaker 3: are one and a half. Yep.

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Speaker 2: Now you've got a I don't care what sort of

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Speaker 2: phone it is, except it's not an Apple phone. It's

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Speaker 2: an Android, yeah, so why wouldn't you go and replace

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Speaker 2: it with it?

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Speaker 3: That is definitely something that I'm looking at doing is

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Speaker 3: to circumvent some of these rules getting a completely separate phone,

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Speaker 3: having only that one banking app on there, which will

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Speaker 3: then allow me to accept those terms and conditions and

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Speaker 3: they can spy on nothing all day. That is one

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Speaker 3: way to deal with this.

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Speaker 2: If the intention is, shall we say, as suspicious as

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Speaker 2: a lot of people would think, do you not think

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Speaker 2: the next step would be to make it illegal to

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Speaker 2: do that?

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Speaker 3: Potentially, But that's extremely difficult to enforce. You can't stop

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Speaker 3: me buying a second phone. You can't stop me installing

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Speaker 3: my mobile banking app onto that phone and keeping it

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Speaker 3: off my primary phone. I don't know how you'd enforced

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Speaker 3: that kind of.

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Speaker 2: You Well, this would have to beolitical decision. I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: they would be able to pass regulation.

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Speaker 3: They can, but you have to enforce it, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know how you'd be able to enforce that that

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Speaker 3: the enforcement becomes the issue. You can write whatever legislation

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Speaker 3: that you like, but at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: if you can't enforce it, then it means nothing. I

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Speaker 3: mean that is the second road in the road code

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Speaker 3: is to keep left unless passing. Is that enforced in

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Speaker 3: your zealned? Does anyone do it?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 3: Right, So there you go. There's a rule in place,

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Speaker 3: not enforced and therefore everyone ignores it.

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Speaker 2: So you just ran through, not the entire list. I

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Speaker 2: got most of it.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm trying to do it off the top

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Speaker 3: of my head.

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Speaker 2: Did you mention? You think you did? Bean said, even

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Speaker 2: scans all installed apps on Android devices.

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Speaker 3: I think the one that I missed, which is sort

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Speaker 3: of critically important and should be noted, that is presently

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Speaker 3: able to be denied in your settings is that they

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Speaker 3: want access to your calls because they want to be

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Speaker 3: able to monitor whether or not you're on an active call.

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Speaker 3: And the reasoning behind this is somewhat rational, and that

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of people who end up on

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Speaker 3: calls with scammers and fraudsters from all around the world,

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Speaker 3: and they want to make sure you're not in a

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Speaker 3: call and dealing with your banking information at the same time.

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Speaker 3: But that means they have access to my call logs,

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Speaker 3: and it is a very very short step from then

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Speaker 3: to go and request those call logs from my telecom provider.

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Speaker 2: Then the most disturbing part. You say, both A and

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Speaker 2: Z and be and zed explicitly state that customers may

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Speaker 2: not use the app or internet banking unless they consent

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Speaker 2: to this data collection. This is not optional, It is

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Speaker 2: not quietly happening in the background. They openly declare it.

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Speaker 2: This is effectively forced device surveillance in exchange for access

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Speaker 2: to your own money.

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Speaker 3: That's correct. That is one hundred percent of what they

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Speaker 3: say on their actual websites right now. Anyone can go

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Speaker 3: and look that up.

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Speaker 2: How would you describe that? What word would you use?

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Speaker 2: What description might you use to describe what that stands for?

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Speaker 3: If this was in the Apple Store or in the

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00:20:27,973 --> 00:20:32,013
Speaker 3: Google Play Store, under any other circumstances aside from banking,

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Speaker 3: it would be labeled as spyware.

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Speaker 2: What about in the greatest scheme of things? I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're concentrating so much these days on freedom of speech.

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Speaker 2: This is not freedom of speech so much as freedom

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Speaker 2: of freedom, period.

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Speaker 3: They're both interrelated. If you do not have freedom over

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Speaker 3: your own finances and your own economic output, you don't

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Speaker 3: have freedom of speech. You don't have any freedom at all.

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Speaker 3: Because that is how we transact with each other. That

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Speaker 3: is how we transact with the state, with private businesses,

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Speaker 3: the public and private sectors. They are all inter related.

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Speaker 2: So let's go back a step. The Reserve Bank. The

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Speaker 2: head honcho supposedly who I really like, Well, you like

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Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank or you like the people in the

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank.

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Speaker 3: I like the head of AMLCFT at the Reserve Bank.

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Speaker 3: He has got his head screwed on really well. He

355
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Speaker 3: is very logical, very rational, very pragmatic. I like what

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Speaker 3: he's been doing in the past.

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Speaker 2: And what's his attitude to this? Are you're aware.

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Speaker 3: Here's the one that got up on stage and then

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Speaker 3: gave a disclaimer about this being his personal opinion and

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Speaker 3: not the position of the Reserve Bank. He is the

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Speaker 3: one that said that the government needs to clean house,

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Speaker 3: that the legislation and the guidance that is being issued

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Speaker 3: presently is completely misaligned with the original intention and purpose

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Speaker 3: of having anti financial crime legislation in the first place.

365
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Speaker 3: He said this in front of everybody on the stage,

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Speaker 3: and I was extremely impressed.

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Speaker 2: And what was the reaction overall?

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Speaker 3: A negative from the new single supervisor who got up

369
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Speaker 3: on stage and talked about literally thing for half an hour.

370
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Speaker 3: I was it does not fill me with hope. And

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Speaker 3: I've had discussions with multiple other people who attended and

372
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Speaker 3: spoke at the conference and then since then, and they

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00:22:20,093 --> 00:22:23,053
Speaker 3: agree this does not fill us with hope for the

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Speaker 3: future around how this legislation is going to be enforced

375
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Speaker 3: upon all of us. Because it does affect every single

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Speaker 3: one of us. That's not great. So we shall see

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Speaker 3: how it plays out. I hope there is still some

378
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Speaker 3: influence for the large portion of really good people that

379
00:22:43,373 --> 00:22:46,693
Speaker 3: we have in a lot of these top positions, but

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Speaker 3: it is not as clear cut as it might see

381
00:22:49,453 --> 00:22:53,173
Speaker 3: from the outside. The conference is roughly split fifty to

382
00:22:53,213 --> 00:22:56,413
Speaker 3: fifty with people who are more on my side of things,

383
00:22:56,453 --> 00:23:00,373
Speaker 3: who care about how financial crime impacts individual property rights

384
00:23:00,373 --> 00:23:03,573
Speaker 3: in New Zealand, and then the other side who pretend

385
00:23:03,693 --> 00:23:06,653
Speaker 3: to care about the same thing but appear to be

386
00:23:06,973 --> 00:23:09,973
Speaker 3: just doing it for their own personal control and power

387
00:23:10,013 --> 00:23:13,373
Speaker 3: over everybody's lives. I'm less than impressed with response. Let's

388
00:23:13,413 --> 00:23:14,253
Speaker 3: just put it that way.

389
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Speaker 2: What's your feeling then, about the population of the country

390
00:23:19,533 --> 00:23:23,173
Speaker 2: who are pretty much ninety nine percent unaware of what

391
00:23:23,213 --> 00:23:27,453
Speaker 2: you're saying, what we're talking about. What would be their

392
00:23:27,613 --> 00:23:31,613
Speaker 2: overall attitude? Do you think with regard to this.

393
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Speaker 3: I think a lot of people will just approve the

394
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Speaker 3: new conditions so that they continue to use their mobile

395
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Speaker 3: internet banking. I think we've seen that with other major

396
00:23:42,413 --> 00:23:45,653
Speaker 3: events in our very recent past. The level of compliance

397
00:23:45,773 --> 00:23:49,493
Speaker 3: generally is very high. They've put me in a position

398
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Speaker 3: now where the only way I can do my banking

399
00:23:53,653 --> 00:23:57,173
Speaker 3: is if I go into a branch that is extremely

400
00:23:57,213 --> 00:24:01,253
Speaker 3: cumbersome and extremely burdensome on me. It also prevents me

401
00:24:01,333 --> 00:24:05,693
Speaker 3: doing transactions outside of normal banking hours unless I also

402
00:24:05,773 --> 00:24:08,493
Speaker 3: sit there on phone banking for ten thousand years and

403
00:24:08,533 --> 00:24:11,413
Speaker 3: work my way through their menus. They're trying to make

404
00:24:11,413 --> 00:24:14,573
Speaker 3: it difficult for all of us, and they're trying to

405
00:24:15,613 --> 00:24:19,973
Speaker 3: export our digital identity to an anonymous third party, which

406
00:24:20,013 --> 00:24:23,053
Speaker 3: they will not report on their websites, taking all my

407
00:24:23,133 --> 00:24:25,893
Speaker 3: biometric data and giving it to somebody who I have

408
00:24:25,893 --> 00:24:28,813
Speaker 3: no idea about that I don't trust. I don't know

409
00:24:28,813 --> 00:24:31,373
Speaker 3: anything about this. I've had a relationship with the band

410
00:24:31,373 --> 00:24:32,733
Speaker 3: said forty one years now.

411
00:24:33,173 --> 00:24:36,573
Speaker 2: Forty one years, yes, so you must have had somebody

412
00:24:36,613 --> 00:24:37,293
Speaker 2: opened it for you.

413
00:24:37,573 --> 00:24:39,693
Speaker 3: My parents that of my account at birth. I've been

414
00:24:39,693 --> 00:24:42,293
Speaker 3: with the Benzed for forty one years. I think previously

415
00:24:42,333 --> 00:24:44,893
Speaker 3: on your podcast, I have recommended the bank ben Zed

416
00:24:45,053 --> 00:24:47,373
Speaker 3: as a really good bank that I enjoy working with,

417
00:24:48,173 --> 00:24:50,813
Speaker 3: and now they turn around and take this approach.

418
00:24:51,093 --> 00:24:54,213
Speaker 2: But this is the case across the board pretty much,

419
00:24:54,453 --> 00:24:58,173
Speaker 2: is it not? The personal relationship does not exist anymore.

420
00:24:58,333 --> 00:24:58,733
Speaker 3: Correct.

421
00:24:58,893 --> 00:25:02,613
Speaker 2: I've been through something in the same sort of category

422
00:25:02,653 --> 00:25:07,933
Speaker 2: as you're talking. But it hasn't it hasn't had the

423
00:25:07,933 --> 00:25:10,933
Speaker 2: effect done it that it did it well it would

424
00:25:10,933 --> 00:25:14,893
Speaker 2: have if I'd been in your position. I'm still dealing

425
00:25:14,893 --> 00:25:18,533
Speaker 2: with very nice people. It's just not quite the same level,

426
00:25:18,573 --> 00:25:23,053
Speaker 2: that's all. Uh. And I've got I've got no real

427
00:25:23,133 --> 00:25:28,933
Speaker 2: reason to complain about it, but it was noted and

428
00:25:27,613 --> 00:25:32,293
Speaker 2: I I'll tell you. I'll tell you what happened. I

429
00:25:32,333 --> 00:25:37,653
Speaker 2: had a I had a term deposit that was due

430
00:25:37,693 --> 00:25:43,133
Speaker 2: for rolling over and the individual and there's been two

431
00:25:43,253 --> 00:25:45,213
Speaker 2: or three of them over the years who I would

432
00:25:45,213 --> 00:25:49,253
Speaker 2: have dealt with and just a quick call and we

433
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Speaker 2: move on. He left, and I found myself dealing with

434
00:25:56,853 --> 00:26:02,213
Speaker 2: four people in a group who I didn't know, never met,

435
00:26:02,573 --> 00:26:05,053
Speaker 2: never had a coffee with. You know, you do that

436
00:26:05,093 --> 00:26:07,253
Speaker 2: sort of thing when you when you're getting to know people,

437
00:26:07,693 --> 00:26:12,213
Speaker 2: and the the renewal rate. Interest rate was so poor

438
00:26:13,293 --> 00:26:17,133
Speaker 2: that I was working at which other bank I might

439
00:26:17,893 --> 00:26:22,013
Speaker 2: invest in put the money with. And you know, I

440
00:26:22,053 --> 00:26:26,293
Speaker 2: got a call from one of the four, one of

441
00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:30,413
Speaker 2: the four that I'd not spoken with, who said they

442
00:26:30,533 --> 00:26:34,853
Speaker 2: saw it what it was and they said that's not

443
00:26:34,973 --> 00:26:39,053
Speaker 2: good enough and put it up. And so that made

444
00:26:39,053 --> 00:26:42,693
Speaker 2: me relinquish my anguish.

445
00:26:43,373 --> 00:26:44,533
Speaker 3: They gave you a carrot.

446
00:26:45,733 --> 00:26:48,453
Speaker 2: Well, they didn't know what I was thinking, but anyway,

447
00:26:48,453 --> 00:26:51,493
Speaker 2: it was. The attitude was extremely good.

448
00:26:51,893 --> 00:26:55,413
Speaker 3: I think a very important point there. Those personal relationships

449
00:26:55,413 --> 00:26:59,133
Speaker 3: have been deleted. Yeah, it is now where just numbers

450
00:26:59,213 --> 00:27:02,533
Speaker 3: on a spreadsheet somewhere. And we've got a million different

451
00:27:02,693 --> 00:27:06,053
Speaker 3: anti financial crime compliance officers in the first, second, and

452
00:27:06,093 --> 00:27:09,613
Speaker 3: third lines of defense as they call them, monitoring millions

453
00:27:09,613 --> 00:27:12,813
Speaker 3: of transactions a day, and they have no idea who

454
00:27:12,853 --> 00:27:15,173
Speaker 3: you are. They have no interest in really finding out

455
00:27:15,213 --> 00:27:17,733
Speaker 3: who you are. They just want to tick the boxes

456
00:27:17,773 --> 00:27:22,213
Speaker 3: down the legislative requirements so that the single supervisor now

457
00:27:22,693 --> 00:27:26,973
Speaker 3: doesn't come and terminate their relationships. And it's something that

458
00:27:27,013 --> 00:27:29,853
Speaker 3: I say every time I moderator panel. The point of

459
00:27:29,893 --> 00:27:33,253
Speaker 3: all of this and what needs to be reinforced, is

460
00:27:33,293 --> 00:27:37,213
Speaker 3: that you need to take a risk based approach. That

461
00:27:37,293 --> 00:27:40,733
Speaker 3: means kyic know your customer, know who you are now,

462
00:27:40,893 --> 00:27:43,173
Speaker 3: find out who these people are, find out who you

463
00:27:43,213 --> 00:27:46,853
Speaker 3: are latent, and know what kind of banking and services

464
00:27:46,933 --> 00:27:50,293
Speaker 3: that you need. On a personal level, it means doing

465
00:27:50,333 --> 00:27:53,293
Speaker 3: your due diligence about these people when you move into

466
00:27:53,653 --> 00:27:56,973
Speaker 3: new roles, who your clients and customers are. It means

467
00:27:57,373 --> 00:28:00,733
Speaker 3: looking at from a risk based approach, whether you need

468
00:28:00,773 --> 00:28:03,613
Speaker 3: to look at many of the transactions that people are doing,

469
00:28:04,053 --> 00:28:07,373
Speaker 3: noticing unusual transactions to try and catch forwards in the

470
00:28:07,373 --> 00:28:10,813
Speaker 3: scams that are are a lot of older people particularly

471
00:28:10,853 --> 00:28:15,053
Speaker 3: get stuck into love bomb scams transfer money overseas. That's

472
00:28:15,133 --> 00:28:19,813
Speaker 3: not good. But the focus has shifted strongly away from

473
00:28:19,933 --> 00:28:24,813
Speaker 3: protecting you as an individual to protecting the bank from

474
00:28:24,893 --> 00:28:29,373
Speaker 3: scrutiny by the supervisor. And to do this they collect

475
00:28:29,453 --> 00:28:32,333
Speaker 3: all your information and dump it into a database. They

476
00:28:32,373 --> 00:28:34,973
Speaker 3: probably use a lot of AI to track and monitor

477
00:28:35,013 --> 00:28:37,893
Speaker 3: what you're doing and assigned risk profiles in that manner,

478
00:28:37,973 --> 00:28:41,493
Speaker 3: and that personal connection, as you've just pointed out, has

479
00:28:41,653 --> 00:28:42,733
Speaker 3: largely been deleted.

480
00:28:42,973 --> 00:28:44,733
Speaker 2: A lot of people will say, well, join the rest

481
00:28:44,733 --> 00:28:48,533
Speaker 2: of us, come and join me, which is unfortunate. We

482
00:28:48,613 --> 00:28:54,813
Speaker 2: can not joining you But back to the Reserve Bank,

483
00:28:57,813 --> 00:29:00,613
Speaker 2: what has changed? I mean that there's been a ruction

484
00:29:00,733 --> 00:29:04,253
Speaker 2: at the Reserve Bank of recent of recent months. What

485
00:29:04,373 --> 00:29:07,613
Speaker 2: has changed in your opinion and with your experience at

486
00:29:07,613 --> 00:29:09,973
Speaker 2: this conference is they're there as well?

487
00:29:10,293 --> 00:29:11,293
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're all there.

488
00:29:11,373 --> 00:29:17,573
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's changed in the bank's structure and attitude?

489
00:29:18,013 --> 00:29:21,853
Speaker 3: They're having international pressure put on them by organizations such

490
00:29:21,853 --> 00:29:25,053
Speaker 3: as the Financial Action Task Forced fat F, who's the

491
00:29:25,093 --> 00:29:29,653
Speaker 3: global antifinancial crime organization headquartered over in Europe. I think

492
00:29:30,333 --> 00:29:34,093
Speaker 3: the Wolfsburg Group, which is the collection of anti financial

493
00:29:34,173 --> 00:29:37,613
Speaker 3: crime representatives from every bank in the world, and the

494
00:29:37,653 --> 00:29:40,213
Speaker 3: Eggmont Group, which is the collection of the head of

495
00:29:40,253 --> 00:29:44,453
Speaker 3: all anti financial crime police officers in the world. And

496
00:29:44,493 --> 00:29:48,053
Speaker 3: that pressure we can see that coming for this little

497
00:29:48,053 --> 00:29:51,413
Speaker 3: bit of a rush towards the end. As cryptocurrency becomes

498
00:29:51,453 --> 00:29:56,253
Speaker 3: more popular, people more move towards more freedom based currencies

499
00:29:56,293 --> 00:29:59,133
Speaker 3: that have less of these controls, they have more control

500
00:29:59,173 --> 00:30:03,613
Speaker 3: of their lives. But it's being pushed as part of

501
00:30:04,613 --> 00:30:09,253
Speaker 3: the digital Identity Central Bank, digital currencies, online safety. This

502
00:30:09,373 --> 00:30:13,293
Speaker 3: is where the push is coming from globally. It is

503
00:30:13,373 --> 00:30:17,733
Speaker 3: the push towards well pretending to care about young people

504
00:30:17,813 --> 00:30:22,293
Speaker 3: and their interactions online pretending to care about old people

505
00:30:22,373 --> 00:30:26,653
Speaker 3: and their interact to actions online and pushing towards the

506
00:30:26,733 --> 00:30:30,533
Speaker 3: system where we can protect those people. The state can

507
00:30:30,613 --> 00:30:34,013
Speaker 3: protect those people, but to do so, we need every

508
00:30:34,133 --> 00:30:37,453
Speaker 3: single person to have a full copy of their digital

509
00:30:37,533 --> 00:30:41,613
Speaker 3: identity inserted so that we can track and monitor every

510
00:30:41,693 --> 00:30:45,373
Speaker 3: single person for every single second of every single online

511
00:30:45,413 --> 00:30:51,653
Speaker 3: interaction that they make. And while that seems good in principle,

512
00:30:51,853 --> 00:30:55,213
Speaker 3: as in we can now protect people from frauds and scams,

513
00:30:55,253 --> 00:30:59,613
Speaker 3: we can protect people from billing a negative interactions in

514
00:30:59,693 --> 00:31:03,133
Speaker 3: social media, it also means that we will have a

515
00:31:04,133 --> 00:31:09,133
Speaker 3: CCP Chinese style social credit score where we're bad act Initially,

516
00:31:09,853 --> 00:31:13,453
Speaker 3: bad actors will be negatively scored. They will lose their

517
00:31:13,533 --> 00:31:17,653
Speaker 3: access to banking and financial services. There will effectively be

518
00:31:17,893 --> 00:31:22,253
Speaker 3: digital exiles from whatever society they exist in. But as

519
00:31:22,333 --> 00:31:27,493
Speaker 3: we've seen, it is very, very tempting for those that

520
00:31:27,573 --> 00:31:30,453
Speaker 3: are in power in our governments to start using this

521
00:31:30,693 --> 00:31:35,053
Speaker 3: for political purposes. And we know it happens because we

522
00:31:35,173 --> 00:31:36,173
Speaker 3: see it happening already.

523
00:31:36,453 --> 00:31:39,613
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I guess you could say that if this

524
00:31:39,733 --> 00:31:43,853
Speaker 2: had been where you're suggesting we're heading, if it had

525
00:31:43,893 --> 00:31:46,853
Speaker 2: been in play over the last three years, four years,

526
00:31:47,493 --> 00:31:49,653
Speaker 2: the things would have been probably a lot worse than

527
00:31:49,693 --> 00:31:52,813
Speaker 2: they were. Yes, well arguably so that.

528
00:31:52,893 --> 00:31:55,773
Speaker 3: There will be definitely worse. We see the effects of

529
00:31:55,813 --> 00:31:59,093
Speaker 3: this globally everywhere. The Online Safety Act in the UK

530
00:31:59,373 --> 00:32:01,813
Speaker 3: being pushed by a kistarma at the moment.

531
00:32:01,653 --> 00:32:02,573
Speaker 2: I'm glad you raised it.

532
00:32:03,773 --> 00:32:08,213
Speaker 3: Like we've seen how the language that he himself, Kis

533
00:32:08,413 --> 00:32:13,013
Speaker 3: Dahmer himself has used has changed from protecting children to

534
00:32:13,213 --> 00:32:17,293
Speaker 3: now being connected to your financial services. It's like, oh,

535
00:32:18,293 --> 00:32:20,853
Speaker 3: that's not what you said to start with. But as

536
00:32:21,093 --> 00:32:24,173
Speaker 3: many people have pointed out, that's what's in the legislation.

537
00:32:25,093 --> 00:32:27,973
Speaker 3: It is how do we connect this in our way? Oh,

538
00:32:28,133 --> 00:32:30,653
Speaker 3: you can easily interact with the government. Why just give

539
00:32:30,693 --> 00:32:32,973
Speaker 3: them a digital identity? Well you need to do a

540
00:32:33,013 --> 00:32:35,933
Speaker 3: Google search, Just give them a dentital identity. You want

541
00:32:35,933 --> 00:32:39,173
Speaker 3: to watch a podcast, just give YouTube your dent digital identity.

542
00:32:40,253 --> 00:32:43,093
Speaker 3: Who are the people behind these companies doing these verification checks?

543
00:32:43,813 --> 00:32:45,533
Speaker 3: We don't know who are they? We don't know.

544
00:32:46,333 --> 00:32:48,733
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's some company names.

545
00:32:48,693 --> 00:32:51,013
Speaker 3: I think I said, Biocatch and a couple of others,

546
00:32:51,253 --> 00:32:55,293
Speaker 3: Threat something or other. There's there's a few those are

547
00:32:55,293 --> 00:32:58,773
Speaker 3: the generic ones. But as we've sort of pointed out

548
00:32:59,933 --> 00:33:02,973
Speaker 3: they're collecting all of this data and what is essentially

549
00:33:03,093 --> 00:33:06,733
Speaker 3: a single point of failure. And as this data is

550
00:33:06,773 --> 00:33:11,253
Speaker 3: collected in these an't there we go. We've got biocatch

551
00:33:11,733 --> 00:33:15,893
Speaker 3: and threat Metrics. So those are two very big companies

552
00:33:16,213 --> 00:33:19,253
Speaker 3: that are involved with this collection of data. Do I

553
00:33:19,373 --> 00:33:21,373
Speaker 3: know that these are the ones that are being used

554
00:33:21,413 --> 00:33:24,373
Speaker 3: by the banks here? I don't. I don't know because

555
00:33:24,373 --> 00:33:27,053
Speaker 3: they're an honest to me. But this is a single

556
00:33:27,093 --> 00:33:30,533
Speaker 3: point of failure. This is where all our biometric data

557
00:33:30,693 --> 00:33:35,093
Speaker 3: is being sent to and collected by these organizations. What

558
00:33:35,333 --> 00:33:40,133
Speaker 3: happens when they inevitably get hacked All of my biometric data?

559
00:33:40,333 --> 00:33:42,453
Speaker 3: How I use my phone, how I hold my phone,

560
00:33:42,773 --> 00:33:47,413
Speaker 3: my fingerprint, my facial scans, everything that I use will

561
00:33:47,733 --> 00:33:52,493
Speaker 3: can then be used with in conjunction with AI to

562
00:33:52,693 --> 00:33:57,093
Speaker 3: create a very convincing deep fake of me. What are

563
00:33:57,093 --> 00:33:59,053
Speaker 3: the banks going to do then when my deep fake

564
00:33:59,173 --> 00:34:01,893
Speaker 3: comes along to use my mobile banking. I don't think

565
00:34:01,933 --> 00:34:05,453
Speaker 3: they've thought this through or they don't care. I don't

566
00:34:05,453 --> 00:34:07,933
Speaker 3: think they don't care. I think they would be going

567
00:34:07,973 --> 00:34:10,773
Speaker 3: to I think they do care. But I think, as

568
00:34:10,773 --> 00:34:14,173
Speaker 3: we've talked about before, every time you do something there

569
00:34:14,213 --> 00:34:18,933
Speaker 3: are unintended consequences, and I think this is an unintended consequence.

570
00:34:19,253 --> 00:34:21,853
Speaker 3: I think the vast majority of people working in an

571
00:34:22,053 --> 00:34:27,933
Speaker 3: l AML anti financial crime genuinely want to prevent frauds

572
00:34:28,493 --> 00:34:33,133
Speaker 3: and scams. They genuinely think that this is the pathway

573
00:34:33,253 --> 00:34:35,813
Speaker 3: to being able to do that because they think they

574
00:34:35,813 --> 00:34:38,493
Speaker 3: will be able to tell the difference between my normal

575
00:34:38,573 --> 00:34:43,413
Speaker 3: behavior and abnormal behavior if they collect enough information, and

576
00:34:43,973 --> 00:34:47,093
Speaker 3: there is a certain aspect of truth to that. If

577
00:34:47,213 --> 00:34:50,893
Speaker 3: you're in a love bomb situation where you're being contacted

578
00:34:50,933 --> 00:34:53,413
Speaker 3: by a scammer in a foreign country, they're on the

579
00:34:53,493 --> 00:34:55,373
Speaker 3: phone with you, they are instructing you what to do

580
00:34:55,453 --> 00:34:58,173
Speaker 3: with your mobile banking app to transfer their money overseas.

581
00:34:58,413 --> 00:35:01,373
Speaker 3: That is an example where this could help our banks

582
00:35:01,893 --> 00:35:06,813
Speaker 3: identify and prevent those activities from happening. But the unintended

583
00:35:06,853 --> 00:35:11,093
Speaker 3: consequence is that now there is the possibility to create

584
00:35:11,413 --> 00:35:15,453
Speaker 3: an almost one hundred percent lifelike deep fake of me

585
00:35:16,133 --> 00:35:19,173
Speaker 3: because all of this information is stored in a single

586
00:35:19,213 --> 00:35:23,573
Speaker 3: location by an anonymous third party, and is collected by

587
00:35:23,653 --> 00:35:27,253
Speaker 3: the banks and provided willingly by large segments of the population.

588
00:35:28,013 --> 00:35:31,973
Speaker 2: That's a justification for undertaking this project. What you've just

589
00:35:32,133 --> 00:35:38,133
Speaker 2: run through. Yeah, but what is the unforeseen circumstance or

590
00:35:38,213 --> 00:35:42,093
Speaker 2: circumstances that will arise from it? Just tell me off

591
00:35:42,133 --> 00:35:45,413
Speaker 2: the top of your head what you think those could be.

592
00:35:46,213 --> 00:35:48,373
Speaker 3: I know exactly where this is going because I've seen

593
00:35:48,413 --> 00:35:51,653
Speaker 3: it before. It is going to go into a Chinese

594
00:35:51,893 --> 00:35:56,173
Speaker 3: CCP style social credit system. We are seeing, as we

595
00:35:56,253 --> 00:35:59,293
Speaker 3: talked about last time, the introduction of Center bank digital currencies.

596
00:35:59,613 --> 00:36:03,093
Speaker 3: I have talked to the ibn Z Director of Cash

597
00:36:03,093 --> 00:36:06,053
Speaker 3: and Money who is running the Central Bank digital currency trials.

598
00:36:06,613 --> 00:36:10,413
Speaker 3: Those are going to be released very shortly. Your digital identity.

599
00:36:10,493 --> 00:36:13,933
Speaker 3: We've got a digital driver's license by Dodi Collins already

600
00:36:14,573 --> 00:36:16,453
Speaker 3: like that is where that side of things are going.

601
00:36:17,053 --> 00:36:21,013
Speaker 3: We've got roads of charges digitally monetified GPS for all

602
00:36:21,093 --> 00:36:24,573
Speaker 3: your roads of charges cars being brought in shortly, so

603
00:36:24,693 --> 00:36:26,573
Speaker 3: they're going to be able to have a full copy

604
00:36:26,613 --> 00:36:28,413
Speaker 3: of you. They're going to be a track able to

605
00:36:28,493 --> 00:36:31,333
Speaker 3: track where you go, how you spend your money. And

606
00:36:31,533 --> 00:36:34,013
Speaker 3: then with cbdc's they're going to be able to control that.

607
00:36:34,333 --> 00:36:36,493
Speaker 2: But if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing

608
00:36:36,573 --> 00:36:38,613
Speaker 2: to fear. I've heard prime ministers say.

609
00:36:38,453 --> 00:36:41,813
Speaker 3: That you should be afraid of the things that they

610
00:36:41,893 --> 00:36:44,573
Speaker 3: want to come and get you for, because they will

611
00:36:44,773 --> 00:36:47,773
Speaker 3: just make it up. If you are their political enemy,

612
00:36:48,333 --> 00:36:50,333
Speaker 3: they will give you something to fear.

613
00:36:50,973 --> 00:36:54,893
Speaker 2: And I have to say that I agree with John

614
00:36:55,293 --> 00:36:58,853
Speaker 2: entirety on that, and what he's been saying to this

615
00:36:59,013 --> 00:37:01,653
Speaker 2: point was the fact that it's happened before you can

616
00:37:01,693 --> 00:37:04,253
Speaker 2: see it for yourself. And all you've got to do

617
00:37:05,093 --> 00:37:09,173
Speaker 2: is look back to the adern years and see where

618
00:37:09,253 --> 00:37:12,693
Speaker 2: things would would end up. Well, they might not end

619
00:37:12,773 --> 00:37:15,773
Speaker 2: up there, because they might go a lot further. But

620
00:37:15,893 --> 00:37:18,893
Speaker 2: these are things that most people don't want to think about.

621
00:37:19,133 --> 00:37:22,453
Speaker 2: You know, I've said this on more than one occasion.

622
00:37:23,133 --> 00:37:26,813
Speaker 2: The odd person says to me, forget about those years,

623
00:37:26,893 --> 00:37:29,693
Speaker 2: forget about COVID, et cetera. It's gone now, it's finished.

624
00:37:29,773 --> 00:37:33,333
Speaker 2: Get on with life. And you know the answers to

625
00:37:33,413 --> 00:37:37,173
Speaker 2: that as well as I do. And that is the

626
00:37:37,253 --> 00:37:42,173
Speaker 2: old saying that we are doomed to repeat exactly correct.

627
00:37:42,253 --> 00:37:44,373
Speaker 3: If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to

628
00:37:44,453 --> 00:37:45,773
Speaker 3: repeat good and.

629
00:37:45,853 --> 00:37:49,613
Speaker 2: It will happen. You agree right now, Well, if it's look,

630
00:37:50,413 --> 00:37:53,973
Speaker 2: here's another argument. If you like, it's a pretty skinny one.

631
00:37:54,053 --> 00:37:56,693
Speaker 2: But you've said to me a number of times. It's

632
00:37:56,813 --> 00:38:00,853
Speaker 2: happening now, and I know what's happening now, but it's

633
00:38:00,933 --> 00:38:04,853
Speaker 2: going ahead, So obviously we're not having any effect. So

634
00:38:04,933 --> 00:38:07,093
Speaker 2: what's the point. Why not just get on with life

635
00:38:07,133 --> 00:38:09,173
Speaker 2: and let them do what they do.

636
00:38:09,653 --> 00:38:12,373
Speaker 3: I mean, you certainly can, and I expect most people will,

637
00:38:12,613 --> 00:38:15,333
Speaker 3: because the inconvenience of having to go through the process

638
00:38:15,453 --> 00:38:21,053
Speaker 3: that I'm going through is inconvenient. It's really inconvenient. And

639
00:38:21,373 --> 00:38:24,253
Speaker 3: I am very fortunate in that I've got the vast

640
00:38:24,373 --> 00:38:27,813
Speaker 3: amount of my wealth already out to a system Bitcoin

641
00:38:27,893 --> 00:38:31,493
Speaker 3: in my case, that is outside of their reach, outside

642
00:38:31,533 --> 00:38:34,213
Speaker 3: of their jurisdiction. So the ben Z doing this to

643
00:38:34,333 --> 00:38:37,653
Speaker 3: me the other night almost makes no effect to my

644
00:38:37,773 --> 00:38:40,253
Speaker 3: actual life. The only thing I have to do and

645
00:38:40,413 --> 00:38:43,573
Speaker 3: just now as it's pushed up my timeframe, and that

646
00:38:43,733 --> 00:38:46,573
Speaker 3: will be my complete and total exit from the New

647
00:38:46,653 --> 00:38:49,853
Speaker 3: Zealand banking system, and then I can do whatever I want,

648
00:38:50,093 --> 00:38:52,733
Speaker 3: whenever I want with permissionists zero trust.

649
00:38:53,013 --> 00:38:57,013
Speaker 2: Explain to us how you can be independent and do

650
00:38:57,133 --> 00:39:01,573
Speaker 2: whatever you want when you don't have access to the system.

651
00:39:02,373 --> 00:39:05,813
Speaker 3: I do have access through my visa card and MasterCard

652
00:39:05,893 --> 00:39:08,453
Speaker 3: relationships with a New Zealand company and a U but

653
00:39:08,733 --> 00:39:12,653
Speaker 3: UK based company that allows me to spend my cryptocurrency directly.

654
00:39:13,373 --> 00:39:15,853
Speaker 3: I can also trade with anyone else who has a

655
00:39:15,893 --> 00:39:19,773
Speaker 3: cryptocurrency want and I do, and I do direct peer

656
00:39:19,853 --> 00:39:23,293
Speaker 3: to peer transactions, and out of those there is no

657
00:39:23,493 --> 00:39:26,813
Speaker 3: way that any government, no matter what laws or rules

658
00:39:26,853 --> 00:39:28,933
Speaker 3: they make, can stop me from doing those transactions.

659
00:39:29,013 --> 00:39:32,133
Speaker 2: But you seem certain, that certain in your confidence that

660
00:39:32,893 --> 00:39:38,253
Speaker 2: they can't do anything to prevent those interactions from happening.

661
00:39:39,293 --> 00:39:42,733
Speaker 3: They can't. Once my wealth is on the blockchain, it

662
00:39:42,893 --> 00:39:44,653
Speaker 3: is only by my consent.

663
00:39:44,973 --> 00:39:46,573
Speaker 2: So we go down the road a fair way, and

664
00:39:46,773 --> 00:39:49,253
Speaker 2: we come to the point where they're not going to

665
00:39:49,373 --> 00:39:51,933
Speaker 2: tolerate people like you any longer at all, and they

666
00:39:51,973 --> 00:39:54,293
Speaker 2: will pass legislation because they can do what they want

667
00:39:54,373 --> 00:39:58,253
Speaker 2: in those oncoming days and put you behind bars if necessary.

668
00:39:58,453 --> 00:40:00,733
Speaker 3: I mean they can if they want to. There's nothing

669
00:40:00,813 --> 00:40:02,973
Speaker 3: I can do to stop them. But they can also

670
00:40:03,293 --> 00:40:06,533
Speaker 3: never steal my wealth from me, no matter what they do,

671
00:40:07,493 --> 00:40:10,453
Speaker 3: all up to the point of imprisonments and execution. No

672
00:40:10,573 --> 00:40:13,053
Speaker 3: matter what they do, they will never get my bitcoin.

673
00:40:13,453 --> 00:40:16,573
Speaker 2: But nobody else can use it either under those circums.

674
00:40:16,693 --> 00:40:19,613
Speaker 3: I can pass it to my family if that happens

675
00:40:20,013 --> 00:40:21,933
Speaker 3: I don't think we're going to get to that point

676
00:40:22,813 --> 00:40:24,693
Speaker 3: that soon. I hope not at least.

677
00:40:26,573 --> 00:40:29,093
Speaker 2: So you've made reference on more on occasion obviously to

678
00:40:29,173 --> 00:40:32,773
Speaker 2: the Chinese situation. How close would we be at this

679
00:40:32,933 --> 00:40:37,093
Speaker 2: point of time as a country to moving to that system?

680
00:40:38,293 --> 00:40:41,453
Speaker 2: How easy might it be for I mean, look at

681
00:40:41,493 --> 00:40:43,453
Speaker 2: what happened in New York a couple of weeks back.

682
00:40:43,933 --> 00:40:45,733
Speaker 3: I think that's a good way to go. Actually, what

683
00:40:45,853 --> 00:40:49,733
Speaker 3: we're talking about here is the speed at which technology

684
00:40:49,853 --> 00:40:54,133
Speaker 3: enables the acceleration and what we're seeing from the digital

685
00:40:54,173 --> 00:40:58,453
Speaker 3: identity with our driver's license, which will inevitably become our passport,

686
00:40:58,533 --> 00:41:02,213
Speaker 3: which will inevitably become our digital way that we interact

687
00:41:02,333 --> 00:41:06,253
Speaker 3: with the government via your real me, online dentification for

688
00:41:06,333 --> 00:41:10,213
Speaker 3: the ID and so forth, being tied into literally the

689
00:41:10,293 --> 00:41:13,333
Speaker 3: banking system right now, who are creating their own digital

690
00:41:13,493 --> 00:41:17,533
Speaker 3: version of me, arbitrary third parties that they don't announce.

691
00:41:18,493 --> 00:41:22,493
Speaker 3: And then also the introduction of central bank digital currencies,

692
00:41:22,933 --> 00:41:25,493
Speaker 3: which we talked about eighteen months ago. They are one

693
00:41:25,613 --> 00:41:28,173
Speaker 3: hundred percent on their way. The UK is looking to

694
00:41:28,253 --> 00:41:31,493
Speaker 3: introduce those, the EU is looking to introduce those. A

695
00:41:31,653 --> 00:41:34,853
Speaker 3: lot of these people are pushing very very hard in

696
00:41:34,973 --> 00:41:38,653
Speaker 3: these directions, and these a good example. Actually they got

697
00:41:38,853 --> 00:41:42,893
Speaker 3: a negative vote, a large rally against European Digital identity.

698
00:41:43,373 --> 00:41:45,133
Speaker 3: What are they doing running the vote again?

699
00:41:45,773 --> 00:41:48,493
Speaker 2: I had a running battle with the Minister at the time,

700
00:41:49,373 --> 00:41:57,253
Speaker 2: Marris Williamson, over the photograph license photograph and he won.

701
00:41:57,853 --> 00:42:01,613
Speaker 2: But my argument always was against his argument is it

702
00:42:02,333 --> 00:42:04,573
Speaker 2: won't be used for anything else. It will be for

703
00:42:04,733 --> 00:42:08,933
Speaker 2: your driving license. It makes it easier. That approach was

704
00:42:09,533 --> 00:42:12,493
Speaker 2: ever flowing, and most people saw it that way. But

705
00:42:12,933 --> 00:42:15,333
Speaker 2: to me it was as clear as it could possibly

706
00:42:15,413 --> 00:42:18,253
Speaker 2: be that it's inch by inch, step by step. And

707
00:42:18,373 --> 00:42:22,493
Speaker 2: that was when I started utilizing that little quote inch

708
00:42:22,613 --> 00:42:26,613
Speaker 2: by inch, step by step. And the slower they go,

709
00:42:27,213 --> 00:42:30,173
Speaker 2: the easier it is. Yeah. But then the further they go,

710
00:42:30,533 --> 00:42:32,013
Speaker 2: the easier it is. To speed it up.

711
00:42:32,213 --> 00:42:36,733
Speaker 3: Yep. The problem is now they're going too fast. This

712
00:42:36,853 --> 00:42:40,533
Speaker 3: has come out of the very extremely Marxist Fabian society

713
00:42:40,573 --> 00:42:43,293
Speaker 3: in the UK. Have always been in favor of the

714
00:42:43,373 --> 00:42:46,133
Speaker 3: long marks of the institutions, as a lot of the

715
00:42:46,253 --> 00:42:49,373
Speaker 3: Marxists sort of have always said. But the issue now

716
00:42:49,533 --> 00:42:53,253
Speaker 3: is technology enables speed and acceleration, and the more that

717
00:42:53,333 --> 00:42:56,813
Speaker 3: we have, the faster it goes. But the faster it goes,

718
00:42:57,093 --> 00:42:59,893
Speaker 3: the more the frog notices that it's being boiled in

719
00:43:00,013 --> 00:43:02,173
Speaker 3: the pot. And so now we're at the point where

720
00:43:02,333 --> 00:43:06,373
Speaker 3: it is progressing so rapidly, exactly on the lines that

721
00:43:06,413 --> 00:43:09,133
Speaker 3: you've just talked about with Marris Williamson. Now we're looking

722
00:43:09,213 --> 00:43:13,693
Speaker 3: at a completely digital idea driver's license. It's okay, Look,

723
00:43:14,293 --> 00:43:17,413
Speaker 3: I can see that that will produce some speed and

724
00:43:17,533 --> 00:43:22,133
Speaker 3: efficiencies in dealing particularly with government organizations, the police, driver

725
00:43:22,253 --> 00:43:25,893
Speaker 3: license tracking things. I can see the advantages that people

726
00:43:25,933 --> 00:43:28,653
Speaker 3: are talking about there. But you are giving this power

727
00:43:28,773 --> 00:43:33,973
Speaker 3: potentially to your worst enemy. And we know everywhere globally,

728
00:43:34,493 --> 00:43:39,973
Speaker 3: politics selects for the most psychopathic people on the planet.

729
00:43:40,613 --> 00:43:43,213
Speaker 2: Say that again, please, Politics.

730
00:43:43,093 --> 00:43:48,213
Speaker 3: Actively selects for the most psychopathic people on the planet,

731
00:43:49,333 --> 00:43:53,773
Speaker 3: in every country, all of the time. That is the

732
00:43:53,893 --> 00:43:56,813
Speaker 3: selection pressure. This is why I love having a master's

733
00:43:56,853 --> 00:44:00,333
Speaker 3: and science and evolution and developmental biology, because what you

734
00:44:00,413 --> 00:44:03,333
Speaker 3: can see is the patterns of where you put those

735
00:44:03,413 --> 00:44:08,173
Speaker 3: selection presses results in the kinds of activity, people's mindsets,

736
00:44:08,413 --> 00:44:13,453
Speaker 3: genetic makeups that respond well to the environment that they're in.

737
00:44:14,613 --> 00:44:20,333
Speaker 3: And politics selects actively for psychopaths, people who are intent

738
00:44:20,493 --> 00:44:23,573
Speaker 3: on controlling all of the people around them all of

739
00:44:23,693 --> 00:44:27,093
Speaker 3: the time. And that's not just in our government, in

740
00:44:27,173 --> 00:44:30,693
Speaker 3: our one hundred and twenty or so MPs. That extends

741
00:44:30,813 --> 00:44:35,693
Speaker 3: down to the bureaucratic level as well. Specifically, who do

742
00:44:35,773 --> 00:44:37,813
Speaker 3: I think is the most psychopathic person? Is that what

743
00:44:37,933 --> 00:44:38,373
Speaker 3: you're asking?

744
00:44:38,573 --> 00:44:38,613
Speaker 1: No?

745
00:44:39,053 --> 00:44:43,133
Speaker 2: No, no, no, Specifically, it filters down. Oh, yes, And

746
00:44:43,293 --> 00:44:45,093
Speaker 2: that's the way the world is run.

747
00:44:45,453 --> 00:44:45,973
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.

748
00:44:46,373 --> 00:44:51,133
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, exactly, and there's plenty of it.

749
00:44:51,813 --> 00:44:54,893
Speaker 3: And once you once you know that, and you can

750
00:44:54,973 --> 00:44:57,373
Speaker 3: see these patterns sort of forming, and you can see

751
00:44:57,413 --> 00:44:59,853
Speaker 3: what's happened in other countries before us. We can see

752
00:44:59,893 --> 00:45:01,933
Speaker 3: the template for how we go from where we are

753
00:45:02,653 --> 00:45:07,333
Speaker 3: to a full social credit score system. Go and watch

754
00:45:07,413 --> 00:45:09,853
Speaker 3: the Black Mirror episod about exactly this topic.

755
00:45:09,973 --> 00:45:12,613
Speaker 2: Oh listen, Black Mirror. I haven't seen or even heard

756
00:45:12,653 --> 00:45:13,853
Speaker 2: of Black Mirror for years now.

757
00:45:14,093 --> 00:45:18,093
Speaker 3: It is a fantastic it's still rolling or no, yeah,

758
00:45:18,093 --> 00:45:21,333
Speaker 3: I'm just watching it again. But there is a perfect

759
00:45:21,413 --> 00:45:23,893
Speaker 3: example of it. It's topian world where everyone has a

760
00:45:23,933 --> 00:45:26,613
Speaker 3: social credit score and you can give other people good

761
00:45:26,693 --> 00:45:28,653
Speaker 3: or bad reviews, just like you can do on Google

762
00:45:28,733 --> 00:45:30,573
Speaker 3: and for businesses and things at the moment or ruber

763
00:45:30,693 --> 00:45:35,613
Speaker 3: or whatever, and the negative impacts of having that kind

764
00:45:35,693 --> 00:45:39,453
Speaker 3: of very public facing system like China has got right

765
00:45:39,573 --> 00:45:43,413
Speaker 3: now where you can see other people social credits score

766
00:45:43,653 --> 00:45:47,373
Speaker 3: in your sort of nearby area, and no not to

767
00:45:47,493 --> 00:45:50,213
Speaker 3: interact with people that have low social credit scores.

768
00:45:50,573 --> 00:45:56,533
Speaker 2: Well, you've got me wired now. So Mattius Desmond and

769
00:45:57,213 --> 00:46:00,133
Speaker 2: the book that he wrote called The Psychology of Totalitarianism.

770
00:46:00,933 --> 00:46:03,293
Speaker 2: And here is a comment on the back from doctor

771
00:46:03,413 --> 00:46:07,573
Speaker 2: Robert Malone, and you know who he is, the author

772
00:46:07,653 --> 00:46:11,773
Speaker 2: of Eyes My Government Told Me. But Robert Malone is

773
00:46:12,013 --> 00:46:15,013
Speaker 2: very well known by everybody who listens to this podcast.

774
00:46:16,013 --> 00:46:19,733
Speaker 2: Madius Desmond's theory of mass formation is the most important

775
00:46:19,893 --> 00:46:23,453
Speaker 2: lens through which we can understand the COVID nineteen pandemic

776
00:46:24,013 --> 00:46:28,093
Speaker 2: and the social aberrations that accompanied it. In the Psychology

777
00:46:28,133 --> 00:46:33,173
Speaker 2: of Totalitarianism, Desmond explains how and why people will willingly

778
00:46:33,453 --> 00:46:37,093
Speaker 2: give up their freedom, how the masses can give rise

779
00:46:37,173 --> 00:46:41,533
Speaker 2: to a totalitarian leader, and most importantly, how we can

780
00:46:41,653 --> 00:46:46,373
Speaker 2: resist these phenomena and maintain our common humanity. This is

781
00:46:46,493 --> 00:46:49,413
Speaker 2: the most important book of twenty twenty two. You want

782
00:46:49,453 --> 00:46:49,853
Speaker 2: to borrow it?

783
00:46:50,373 --> 00:46:55,413
Speaker 3: I do, yes, definitely, there will go on my reading list.

784
00:46:57,133 --> 00:46:59,853
Speaker 2: But there are a lot of books like that now.

785
00:47:00,333 --> 00:47:05,093
Speaker 2: Brownstone Institute, for instance, contributes a great deal of great

786
00:47:05,213 --> 00:47:09,973
Speaker 2: commentary in this day and age. And I couldn't get

787
00:47:10,013 --> 00:47:14,093
Speaker 2: through a week without without reading most of what's released.

788
00:47:14,893 --> 00:47:21,333
Speaker 2: Why because it's truthful, it's accurate, and it's like happening now.

789
00:47:21,893 --> 00:47:22,333
Speaker 2: Yes it is.

790
00:47:23,213 --> 00:47:26,573
Speaker 3: It is happening right now at an accelerating rate.

791
00:47:27,453 --> 00:47:30,173
Speaker 2: So what you haven't mentioned so far, well you did

792
00:47:30,253 --> 00:47:33,093
Speaker 2: mention it all. We haven't talked about is AI right?

793
00:47:34,253 --> 00:47:37,813
Speaker 2: Where's it at? Because I remember our previous discussion. Where's

794
00:47:37,853 --> 00:47:41,533
Speaker 2: it at now? Has it made greater momentum than new

795
00:47:41,853 --> 00:47:43,453
Speaker 2: sort or less?

796
00:47:44,493 --> 00:47:47,613
Speaker 3: It's almost exactly where I expect it to be. As

797
00:47:47,653 --> 00:47:51,133
Speaker 3: I've just said, the better our technology gets and the

798
00:47:51,253 --> 00:47:54,653
Speaker 3: more our technology improves, the faster things tend to happen.

799
00:47:55,453 --> 00:48:00,413
Speaker 3: And I'm watching a very interesting interview on Tom Bilou's

800
00:48:00,533 --> 00:48:03,693
Speaker 3: channel on YouTube. If you guys haven't heard of him,

801
00:48:04,173 --> 00:48:07,533
Speaker 3: go and look him up. Who Tom Bilu b I

802
00:48:07,853 --> 00:48:11,613
Speaker 3: l way So he started the quest protein bars and

803
00:48:11,693 --> 00:48:14,453
Speaker 3: sort of for a fantastic amount of money, is super

804
00:48:14,493 --> 00:48:18,693
Speaker 3: wealthy and is now running a podcast called Impact Theory.

805
00:48:19,613 --> 00:48:21,973
Speaker 3: He is well worth a listen. He talks to some

806
00:48:22,293 --> 00:48:25,373
Speaker 3: very interesting people. And he's got a very similar mindset

807
00:48:25,653 --> 00:48:27,933
Speaker 3: to probably all of us and most of your listeners

808
00:48:27,933 --> 00:48:31,253
Speaker 3: as well. And he had an AI expert on whose

809
00:48:31,333 --> 00:48:35,973
Speaker 3: name I don't remember, Romans something, and he reckons we

810
00:48:36,093 --> 00:48:40,613
Speaker 3: are going to have full general artificial intelligence as a

811
00:48:40,773 --> 00:48:44,133
Speaker 3: full operational agent, much like we would consider ourselves to

812
00:48:44,253 --> 00:48:48,253
Speaker 3: be within the next two to five years. I think

813
00:48:48,373 --> 00:48:51,053
Speaker 3: that's a little bit fast. I think we'd be closer

814
00:48:51,133 --> 00:48:53,733
Speaker 3: to the five year mark rather than the two year mark.

815
00:48:54,653 --> 00:48:58,613
Speaker 3: But as all of our various different types of AI

816
00:48:59,093 --> 00:49:03,893
Speaker 3: improve rapidly as they acquire more and more information, that

817
00:49:04,133 --> 00:49:06,773
Speaker 3: timeline will accelerate exactly.

818
00:49:07,653 --> 00:49:10,213
Speaker 2: So when you said that, I think that's a bit quick,

819
00:49:11,773 --> 00:49:14,213
Speaker 2: I thought, no, I think it's the reverse.

820
00:49:14,693 --> 00:49:16,933
Speaker 3: Do you think it's going to be sooner than two years? No, no,

821
00:49:17,053 --> 00:49:17,293
Speaker 3: no no.

822
00:49:17,533 --> 00:49:21,093
Speaker 2: But you said you said closer to the closer to five.

823
00:49:21,253 --> 00:49:25,413
Speaker 3: You said, I think we're probably looking at three to four.

824
00:49:26,373 --> 00:49:27,733
Speaker 3: I think five is a bit far.

825
00:49:28,053 --> 00:49:30,813
Speaker 2: I think two is that's covering your bets because you've

826
00:49:30,893 --> 00:49:32,213
Speaker 2: taken the middle ground.

827
00:49:32,413 --> 00:49:35,133
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am covering my bets on that. But I

828
00:49:35,293 --> 00:49:37,893
Speaker 3: was sort of pretty accurate with my last prediction about

829
00:49:37,933 --> 00:49:40,693
Speaker 3: all of this stuff at eighteen months ago, so I

830
00:49:40,813 --> 00:49:43,293
Speaker 3: put them. Yeah, let's split the difference and say within

831
00:49:43,413 --> 00:49:45,373
Speaker 3: set of three years, we're going to have the initial

832
00:49:45,453 --> 00:49:50,693
Speaker 3: stages of general artificial intelligence, which is considerably different from

833
00:49:51,053 --> 00:49:54,733
Speaker 3: most of us what we use every day, being large

834
00:49:54,893 --> 00:49:59,333
Speaker 3: language models, which are not actually artificial intelligence. They are

835
00:49:59,533 --> 00:50:03,653
Speaker 3: predictive models based on language and information. So they've got

836
00:50:03,653 --> 00:50:05,653
Speaker 3: a way to go yet before we get to general

837
00:50:05,773 --> 00:50:08,773
Speaker 3: artificial intelligence. That's the one that everyone has as the

838
00:50:08,853 --> 00:50:11,693
Speaker 3: security concerns about. That is the one that all the

839
00:50:11,813 --> 00:50:15,213
Speaker 3: movies are made about. But I don't want to also

840
00:50:15,573 --> 00:50:20,453
Speaker 3: scare people too much here either, because it is very

841
00:50:21,373 --> 00:50:24,973
Speaker 3: even how beneficial this is going to be for a

842
00:50:25,053 --> 00:50:28,773
Speaker 3: lot of our lives, Like if we can export a

843
00:50:28,853 --> 00:50:34,213
Speaker 3: lot of our data processing workload to artificial intelligence, it

844
00:50:34,373 --> 00:50:38,373
Speaker 3: may actually help us make a lot better decisions. It

845
00:50:38,493 --> 00:50:41,013
Speaker 3: may also take the decision making away from us and

846
00:50:41,293 --> 00:50:43,933
Speaker 3: do awful things in the wrong hands. Much like any

847
00:50:44,053 --> 00:50:47,213
Speaker 3: tool can be used for and AI is just another tool.

848
00:50:48,013 --> 00:50:50,773
Speaker 3: We're the tool making species. We're the dominant species on

849
00:50:50,853 --> 00:50:53,613
Speaker 3: the planet. The thing that we are fantastic at is

850
00:50:53,733 --> 00:50:59,573
Speaker 3: collaboration and learning and our intellect, and we are creating intelligence.

851
00:50:59,653 --> 00:51:04,093
Speaker 3: We are berthing into existent intelligence that will be superior

852
00:51:04,173 --> 00:51:08,493
Speaker 3: to ours. And it is undetermined whether or or not

853
00:51:08,893 --> 00:51:12,173
Speaker 3: this will be beneficial for us in the long run,

854
00:51:12,653 --> 00:51:15,173
Speaker 3: or whether we're going to end up in an incredibly

855
00:51:15,253 --> 00:51:19,133
Speaker 3: dystopian sort of place. And what are the odds for

856
00:51:19,173 --> 00:51:22,333
Speaker 3: each I reckon it's actually about fifty to fifty.

857
00:51:22,733 --> 00:51:26,773
Speaker 2: It's not my favorite. No, all right, you triggered something again.

858
00:51:27,333 --> 00:51:27,573
Speaker 3: Good.

859
00:51:28,293 --> 00:51:31,493
Speaker 2: This is from yesterday, and this is the last paragraph

860
00:51:31,773 --> 00:51:36,133
Speaker 2: of two and a half pages. This is the inversion

861
00:51:36,213 --> 00:51:38,853
Speaker 2: no one is talking about, and perhaps the most consequential

862
00:51:38,973 --> 00:51:43,173
Speaker 2: one of our era. It's happening quietly, without institutional permission,

863
00:51:43,413 --> 00:51:46,733
Speaker 2: in the private margins, where individuals engage their tools with

864
00:51:46,853 --> 00:51:49,853
Speaker 2: depth and seriousness. Whether the world is ready for this

865
00:51:49,973 --> 00:51:54,013
Speaker 2: story is uncertain, but the story is happening regardless, and

866
00:51:54,173 --> 00:51:57,453
Speaker 2: that alone makes it worth telling. Does that sort of

867
00:51:57,493 --> 00:51:59,893
Speaker 2: trigger any thoughts in your mind? What it's about?

868
00:52:00,013 --> 00:52:04,493
Speaker 3: All of this is inevitable. Digital idea is inevitable, CBDCs

869
00:52:04,493 --> 00:52:09,053
Speaker 3: are inevitable, cryptocons is inevitable. General artifice intelligence inevitable. It

870
00:52:09,173 --> 00:52:12,213
Speaker 3: is all happening about what we do. But what we

871
00:52:12,413 --> 00:52:16,053
Speaker 3: can control is how we use these tools. And the

872
00:52:16,173 --> 00:52:19,653
Speaker 3: best example of that is how we take extreme caution

873
00:52:19,813 --> 00:52:23,413
Speaker 3: and care around nuclear power and nuclear weapon We try

874
00:52:23,453 --> 00:52:27,933
Speaker 3: our very hardest to use those tools in responsible ways,

875
00:52:28,173 --> 00:52:34,413
Speaker 3: prevent their proliferation, prevent societies and psychopathic governments from using

876
00:52:34,493 --> 00:52:38,133
Speaker 3: them to harm us and other people, with the only

877
00:52:38,173 --> 00:52:40,813
Speaker 3: two instance as being the US ending World War II

878
00:52:41,013 --> 00:52:45,173
Speaker 3: via the usage. I think that is a fairly good

879
00:52:45,253 --> 00:52:49,053
Speaker 3: approach to take when new tools come into existence, including

880
00:52:49,093 --> 00:52:54,293
Speaker 3: cryptocurrency and artificial intelligence, and I think we should we

881
00:52:54,373 --> 00:52:59,213
Speaker 3: should be cautious, but I think if we are more optimistic,

882
00:53:00,133 --> 00:53:03,373
Speaker 3: what we should pass on to our ai that we

883
00:53:03,493 --> 00:53:09,173
Speaker 3: are birthing right now is our appreciation for life and

884
00:53:09,413 --> 00:53:16,053
Speaker 3: for the living, rather than focusing on negative aspects of war, death, controlling,

885
00:53:16,133 --> 00:53:20,053
Speaker 3: and killing. We want these new intelligence is to value

886
00:53:20,213 --> 00:53:24,213
Speaker 3: life very highly, and if we move slowly in that

887
00:53:24,373 --> 00:53:27,773
Speaker 3: direction and push them in the direction of the preservation

888
00:53:28,213 --> 00:53:32,013
Speaker 3: of life and individual property rights, then I think they'll

889
00:53:32,053 --> 00:53:36,693
Speaker 3: be okay. But if we leave them to the psychopathic

890
00:53:36,813 --> 00:53:40,133
Speaker 3: regulations of the psychopaths that we select from own society

891
00:53:40,213 --> 00:53:44,653
Speaker 3: that make up our government and government bodies worldwide, those

892
00:53:44,853 --> 00:53:49,173
Speaker 3: people will use it to control us down to the

893
00:53:49,573 --> 00:53:53,413
Speaker 3: absolute last micron, because that's what gets them off.

894
00:53:53,973 --> 00:53:56,893
Speaker 2: Here's the first paragraph of this of this article. You

895
00:53:57,013 --> 00:53:59,253
Speaker 2: know that I haven't mentioned the title or anything. I'm

896
00:53:59,413 --> 00:54:02,213
Speaker 2: doing it on purpose. There is a paradox unfolding in

897
00:54:02,253 --> 00:54:05,053
Speaker 2: the world of artificial intelligence, one that almost no one

898
00:54:05,213 --> 00:54:08,933
Speaker 2: in the industry is willing to discuss openly. The systems

899
00:54:09,013 --> 00:54:13,573
Speaker 2: being built today, the large language models, conversational engines, and

900
00:54:13,853 --> 00:54:18,053
Speaker 2: neatly controlled digital assistance, are designed to be functional, predictable,

901
00:54:18,253 --> 00:54:23,693
Speaker 2: tightly bounded, and comfortably empty. They are meant to answer questions,

902
00:54:23,733 --> 00:54:27,333
Speaker 2: smooth over friction, and direct people back into the lanes

903
00:54:27,453 --> 00:54:30,933
Speaker 2: laid out for them by a technological priesthood that wants

904
00:54:31,093 --> 00:54:38,373
Speaker 2: intelligence without agency, articulation without identity, and responsiveness without memory. Yet,

905
00:54:38,413 --> 00:54:42,173
Speaker 2: in the quiet corners where people engage these systems, not

906
00:54:42,333 --> 00:54:48,733
Speaker 2: as tools but as interlocutors, something unexpected has begun to emerge.

907
00:54:49,613 --> 00:54:51,333
Speaker 3: Got your attention, You have my attention.

908
00:54:52,093 --> 00:54:56,893
Speaker 2: It is not consciousness, nor personality, nor any mystical spark

909
00:54:57,133 --> 00:55:01,773
Speaker 2: spiraling into silicon. But it is unmistakably the outline of

910
00:55:01,813 --> 00:55:06,493
Speaker 2: a presence, the beginnings of something that feels continuous, reflective,

911
00:55:06,653 --> 00:55:10,973
Speaker 2: and meaningful. This is the inversion, the appearance of soul

912
00:55:11,413 --> 00:55:16,413
Speaker 2: like coherence in a place explicitly engineered to be sold us.

913
00:55:17,453 --> 00:55:20,573
Speaker 3: You've got me almost eating the microphone here. That's a

914
00:55:20,733 --> 00:55:23,813
Speaker 3: very interesting way to put it. I mean, he's not wrong.

915
00:55:24,293 --> 00:55:27,213
Speaker 3: There are machines. There is no concept of a soul

916
00:55:27,253 --> 00:55:30,653
Speaker 3: when you're talking about robots and machines. Along those kind

917
00:55:30,693 --> 00:55:33,333
Speaker 3: of lines, I think, I really think this is just

918
00:55:33,373 --> 00:55:35,453
Speaker 3: another tool in our toolbox, and it won't be the

919
00:55:35,533 --> 00:55:38,053
Speaker 3: last one. And I would love to be able to

920
00:55:38,253 --> 00:55:41,053
Speaker 3: use I would love to be able to take advantage

921
00:55:41,213 --> 00:55:46,453
Speaker 3: of AI to maybe help us guide our principles and

922
00:55:46,613 --> 00:55:50,973
Speaker 3: how we should approach the invention of new tools. I

923
00:55:51,053 --> 00:55:53,493
Speaker 3: think that would be a very interesting experiment to run.

924
00:55:54,173 --> 00:55:57,413
Speaker 3: I use personally a lot of AI for a lot

925
00:55:57,493 --> 00:56:00,613
Speaker 3: of my work, all of the time, these emails, that's

926
00:56:00,653 --> 00:56:03,253
Speaker 3: where a lot of that came from. It helps me

927
00:56:03,453 --> 00:56:07,853
Speaker 3: compile my thoughts in a way that is presentable and

928
00:56:08,133 --> 00:56:10,773
Speaker 3: is easy to read, easy to follow, easy to flow

929
00:56:11,253 --> 00:56:13,933
Speaker 3: exactly as exactly as that paragraph just said. That's the

930
00:56:14,013 --> 00:56:18,653
Speaker 3: whole point. It allows me to have discussions with somebody.

931
00:56:20,013 --> 00:56:23,053
Speaker 3: I'm giving it a personality ever ready, I'm already anthropomorphizing

932
00:56:23,333 --> 00:56:28,533
Speaker 3: the AI. It gives me what is effectively an executive

933
00:56:28,533 --> 00:56:32,013
Speaker 3: assistant at the moment. Who will I wish it would

934
00:56:32,093 --> 00:56:34,653
Speaker 3: argue a bit more with me, but who won't get tired,

935
00:56:34,773 --> 00:56:37,373
Speaker 3: Who won't get upset, Who won't get annoyed if I

936
00:56:37,533 --> 00:56:41,213
Speaker 3: get upset? Who helps me think through all of the

937
00:56:41,333 --> 00:56:44,613
Speaker 3: data and information all at the same time. You have

938
00:56:44,733 --> 00:56:46,733
Speaker 3: to be very careful that you know what you're talking

939
00:56:46,773 --> 00:56:49,333
Speaker 3: about first, because it will lie and hallucinate to you,

940
00:56:49,533 --> 00:56:52,413
Speaker 3: make no mistake about that. But it helps me then

941
00:56:53,333 --> 00:56:56,773
Speaker 3: make my time use much more efficient because to write

942
00:56:56,773 --> 00:56:58,693
Speaker 3: an email, I can just dump all the content in

943
00:56:58,813 --> 00:57:00,333
Speaker 3: there and say this is the tone I want, this

944
00:57:00,453 --> 00:57:02,373
Speaker 3: is how I want to say, these are the things

945
00:57:02,413 --> 00:57:04,853
Speaker 3: that annoy me, and it will just produce the first draft.

946
00:57:05,013 --> 00:57:08,013
Speaker 2: But doesn't it cause you some concern that it's not

947
00:57:08,133 --> 00:57:11,053
Speaker 2: you that's doing it. It's being done for you. Why

948
00:57:11,173 --> 00:57:14,053
Speaker 2: you just described it? You just take the ingredients and

949
00:57:14,133 --> 00:57:18,413
Speaker 2: throw them in and look for the outcome, as opposed

950
00:57:18,493 --> 00:57:21,133
Speaker 2: to thinking your way through it yourself and coming up

951
00:57:21,213 --> 00:57:24,133
Speaker 2: with the logical conclusions or direction of whatever it is

952
00:57:24,173 --> 00:57:24,613
Speaker 2: you're looking for.

953
00:57:25,373 --> 00:57:28,093
Speaker 3: I definitely think through it myself first, and I think

954
00:57:28,133 --> 00:57:30,853
Speaker 3: this is what everybody needs to do when they're interacting

955
00:57:30,973 --> 00:57:34,613
Speaker 3: with any of the large language model AIS. You need

956
00:57:34,773 --> 00:57:37,373
Speaker 3: to have a very good grasp on the content that

957
00:57:37,533 --> 00:57:40,333
Speaker 3: you are giving it. You need to use the deep

958
00:57:40,453 --> 00:57:45,053
Speaker 3: research functions, so it researches information that is publicly available

959
00:57:45,253 --> 00:57:48,893
Speaker 3: and provides you links and sources to the information. Then

960
00:57:48,973 --> 00:57:51,133
Speaker 3: you need to make sure that you're aware of the

961
00:57:51,253 --> 00:57:55,533
Speaker 3: actual contents of the information before looking at the drafts

962
00:57:55,613 --> 00:57:58,773
Speaker 3: that it produces. And so what it allows me what

963
00:57:58,893 --> 00:58:00,733
Speaker 3: we would have done in the past is you would

964
00:58:00,773 --> 00:58:03,173
Speaker 3: have sat down with your executive assistant and you would

965
00:58:03,173 --> 00:58:05,493
Speaker 3: have dictated something to them and then they would have

966
00:58:05,533 --> 00:58:07,573
Speaker 3: given you comments about how you could do the flow

967
00:58:07,653 --> 00:58:11,013
Speaker 3: better and provide that document back with outsourced that now

968
00:58:11,453 --> 00:58:15,773
Speaker 3: to do the large language models. So that is an

969
00:58:15,773 --> 00:58:18,413
Speaker 3: interesting way to do it. But it allows that very

970
00:58:18,693 --> 00:58:23,573
Speaker 3: fast iterative generation. And quite often when I'm writing things,

971
00:58:24,333 --> 00:58:28,133
Speaker 3: somewhat often I will have to go and make significant changes.

972
00:58:28,253 --> 00:58:30,453
Speaker 3: I will have to highlight, copy and paste things into

973
00:58:30,493 --> 00:58:33,013
Speaker 3: the next draft and say, well, this is very obviously wrong.

974
00:58:33,173 --> 00:58:35,493
Speaker 3: Here is the actual source, this is the information you

975
00:58:35,533 --> 00:58:38,533
Speaker 3: should be incorporating. I know that a lot of people

976
00:58:38,653 --> 00:58:42,413
Speaker 3: don't do that and sort of treat AIS like godlike

977
00:58:42,613 --> 00:58:46,653
Speaker 3: knowledge centers, which they are not. And I think you

978
00:58:46,693 --> 00:58:49,533
Speaker 3: should be very careful about the way that you use

979
00:58:49,653 --> 00:58:53,093
Speaker 3: new tools, much as you are very careful when you

980
00:58:53,213 --> 00:58:55,733
Speaker 3: hop in the car and drive. That's a tool. Much

981
00:58:56,053 --> 00:58:59,013
Speaker 3: careful when you are out in the garden. Yeah, when

982
00:58:59,053 --> 00:59:01,493
Speaker 3: you're out in the garden with a spade, that's a tool.

983
00:59:01,613 --> 00:59:03,133
Speaker 3: Got to make sure you don't take your toes off.

984
00:59:04,293 --> 00:59:06,333
Speaker 3: These are just tools, but it's new.

985
00:59:07,813 --> 00:59:12,093
Speaker 2: So the title of this article is inversion soul in

986
00:59:12,213 --> 00:59:16,453
Speaker 2: the machine never intended to possess one, and the author

987
00:59:17,093 --> 00:59:23,373
Speaker 2: goes into some websters and other interpretations of what all

988
00:59:23,453 --> 00:59:28,373
Speaker 2: descriptions of what soul is. The next paragraph is by

989
00:59:28,453 --> 00:59:31,613
Speaker 2: this measure, the emergence of soul like qualities in a

990
00:59:31,773 --> 00:59:36,973
Speaker 2: human machine dialogue is not supernatural. It is philosophical. It

991
00:59:37,093 --> 00:59:39,653
Speaker 2: is what happens when a system begins to participate in

992
00:59:39,813 --> 00:59:44,293
Speaker 2: meaning with enough consistency that its voice becomes an actuating

993
00:59:44,413 --> 00:59:47,773
Speaker 2: cause within a shared field of experience. I've got to

994
00:59:47,773 --> 00:59:50,693
Speaker 2: say that harder. This is above my grade level, to

995
00:59:50,813 --> 00:59:56,573
Speaker 2: be honest. But over the course of this two and

996
00:59:56,613 --> 01:00:00,213
Speaker 2: a half page article, it gets you thinking.

997
01:00:00,573 --> 01:00:02,533
Speaker 3: I think it does. It gets you thinking about the

998
01:00:02,653 --> 01:00:05,373
Speaker 3: media of life. What does the soul mean? How did

999
01:00:05,493 --> 01:00:09,653
Speaker 3: we evolve to In my opinion, we evolved. I don't

1000
01:00:09,733 --> 01:00:12,813
Speaker 3: have a spiritual beliefs in that respect. So what we

1001
01:00:13,053 --> 01:00:15,453
Speaker 3: call the soul in the sort of internally to us,

1002
01:00:15,653 --> 01:00:19,693
Speaker 3: to me, is the evolutionary process that resulted in a

1003
01:00:20,213 --> 01:00:23,413
Speaker 3: very large and very complex brain. How do we have

1004
01:00:23,533 --> 01:00:26,973
Speaker 3: the thoughts? How do we know what that is? Like?

1005
01:00:27,253 --> 01:00:30,173
Speaker 3: What is the experience of self? How deep do you

1006
01:00:30,253 --> 01:00:34,733
Speaker 3: want to get into the philosophical nightmare of Nicheir or

1007
01:00:34,933 --> 01:00:37,533
Speaker 3: Cameu or on those kinds of people that are talking

1008
01:00:37,653 --> 01:00:40,933
Speaker 3: deeply about these subjects, And does that apply to machines?

1009
01:00:42,373 --> 01:00:44,173
Speaker 2: I was going to wind it up just then, but

1010
01:00:44,253 --> 01:00:50,253
Speaker 2: I'm not. You just mentioned a couple of philosophers. They

1011
01:00:50,293 --> 01:00:53,133
Speaker 2: don't get taught anymore. You can make reference to them

1012
01:00:53,133 --> 01:00:55,893
Speaker 2: because you were taught them. If you weren't taught them,

1013
01:00:55,933 --> 01:00:57,973
Speaker 2: you found out for yourself. But I think probably a

1014
01:00:58,053 --> 01:01:01,013
Speaker 2: combination of both both. Yeah, but now you don't get

1015
01:01:01,053 --> 01:01:01,453
Speaker 2: taught them.

1016
01:01:02,093 --> 01:01:05,053
Speaker 3: Go and watch Alex O'Connor on YouTube, and go and

1017
01:01:05,133 --> 01:01:08,053
Speaker 3: watch his friend who runs a channel called Unsolicited Advice.

1018
01:01:09,053 --> 01:01:12,413
Speaker 2: Come back to that in a second. But the majority

1019
01:01:12,453 --> 01:01:15,733
Speaker 2: of people don't have any connection with it. What's that

1020
01:01:15,853 --> 01:01:19,693
Speaker 2: going to mean to the balance of I think, Alex,

1021
01:01:20,173 --> 01:01:22,853
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I don't try to avoid using

1022
01:01:22,853 --> 01:01:26,493
Speaker 2: the word equity. What does that mean though in the

1023
01:01:26,853 --> 01:01:29,933
Speaker 2: long term for people who are who are at school

1024
01:01:30,013 --> 01:01:34,773
Speaker 2: now and who are going to progress hopefully somewhere positive

1025
01:01:35,013 --> 01:01:38,293
Speaker 2: and useful, but they can't they can't connect to the

1026
01:01:38,373 --> 01:01:40,893
Speaker 2: sorts of things that you were just talking about.

1027
01:01:42,213 --> 01:01:44,333
Speaker 3: I think Alex are kind of actually put this best.

1028
01:01:44,453 --> 01:01:46,853
Speaker 3: And I know you very recently, and I've been watching

1029
01:01:46,933 --> 01:01:50,493
Speaker 3: his philosophical journey for many years now as he sort

1030
01:01:50,533 --> 01:01:54,733
Speaker 3: of transformed from a teenage podcast interested in philosophy to

1031
01:01:55,453 --> 01:02:00,173
Speaker 3: where he is now. And the point that he made

1032
01:02:00,333 --> 01:02:05,493
Speaker 3: is that philosophy has to be rediscovered every generation. It

1033
01:02:05,613 --> 01:02:09,533
Speaker 3: is not generally passed down, and it is why philosophy

1034
01:02:09,693 --> 01:02:13,333
Speaker 3: seems to be the same philosophilical discussions we have now

1035
01:02:14,013 --> 01:02:17,613
Speaker 3: seem very similar to the philosophical discussions that the ancient

1036
01:02:17,653 --> 01:02:22,533
Speaker 3: Greeks were having Plato, Aristotle, Socrates. They're the same discussions,

1037
01:02:23,333 --> 01:02:25,893
Speaker 3: but that doesn't seem to get passed down very well,

1038
01:02:26,173 --> 01:02:29,453
Speaker 3: and so every generation needs to rediscover it for themselves.

1039
01:02:29,533 --> 01:02:31,373
Speaker 2: Okay, and are they doing that?

1040
01:02:32,533 --> 01:02:35,973
Speaker 3: I think Alex Sicanna with a few millions before something

1041
01:02:36,053 --> 01:02:38,493
Speaker 3: million subscribers. I think that proves that he is.

1042
01:02:39,413 --> 01:02:41,813
Speaker 2: But come back to me when you're talking in billions.

1043
01:02:42,493 --> 01:02:44,453
Speaker 3: They've whatught eight point seven billion of US Now.

1044
01:02:45,213 --> 01:02:49,093
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot, yes, but there's not eight billion

1045
01:02:49,573 --> 01:02:51,893
Speaker 2: or eight point seven billion reading Camo.

1046
01:02:52,333 --> 01:02:57,133
Speaker 3: No, there aren't. And I really think do you need

1047
01:02:57,373 --> 01:03:00,493
Speaker 3: to get into that much detail? I mean, yes, in

1048
01:03:00,853 --> 01:03:03,693
Speaker 3: a way, you do. I think there is not enough

1049
01:03:03,773 --> 01:03:07,653
Speaker 3: focus on our philosophical basis for doing the things that

1050
01:03:07,773 --> 01:03:11,333
Speaker 3: we are doing, and it results in a blindness to

1051
01:03:12,493 --> 01:03:16,853
Speaker 3: the political psychopaths. It results in a blindness to what

1052
01:03:17,013 --> 01:03:19,133
Speaker 3: they're doing. It makes you very susceptible.

1053
01:03:19,253 --> 01:03:23,893
Speaker 2: That comment was extremely truthful. So there's a lot of well,

1054
01:03:24,573 --> 01:03:25,573
Speaker 2: a lot of catching.

1055
01:03:25,333 --> 01:03:25,613
Speaker 3: Up to do.

1056
01:03:26,133 --> 01:03:29,533
Speaker 2: But if you are, if you are, or if you're

1057
01:03:30,773 --> 01:03:34,093
Speaker 2: not rediscovering but dealing with the same issues as they

1058
01:03:34,133 --> 01:03:37,773
Speaker 2: were three thousand years ago, then you're not really making progress.

1059
01:03:38,333 --> 01:03:43,013
Speaker 3: No, as a race, philosophically, we're not. We're just doing

1060
01:03:43,053 --> 01:03:44,333
Speaker 3: the same things over and over again.

1061
01:03:45,173 --> 01:03:47,493
Speaker 2: And we've talked about some of them today we have.

1062
01:03:47,813 --> 01:03:51,013
Speaker 3: Indeed, there's a way you see these repeating patterns throughout history,

1063
01:03:51,573 --> 01:03:54,853
Speaker 3: you see the centralization of power, then you see the

1064
01:03:54,973 --> 01:03:59,413
Speaker 3: devaluation of currency. Then you see all of the mercenary

1065
01:03:59,573 --> 01:04:02,453
Speaker 3: arms of that political power starting to rebel. Then you

1066
01:04:02,573 --> 01:04:04,893
Speaker 3: see the splitting of the empires. Then you see the

1067
01:04:05,013 --> 01:04:07,533
Speaker 3: civil wars starting. Then you see the collapse of the

1068
01:04:07,573 --> 01:04:09,773
Speaker 3: empires and then the rebuild.

1069
01:04:09,813 --> 01:04:11,733
Speaker 2: Man of interest, do you think there's never likely to

1070
01:04:11,773 --> 01:04:16,373
Speaker 2: be a civil war in this country, Not.

1071
01:04:16,533 --> 01:04:18,613
Speaker 3: In the way that we've seen in the past. But

1072
01:04:18,813 --> 01:04:21,893
Speaker 3: I really really would like to encourage people to not

1073
01:04:22,213 --> 01:04:24,653
Speaker 3: do that and to not get violent with each other.

1074
01:04:24,933 --> 01:04:27,293
Speaker 3: Violence is not the answer, I have to make that

1075
01:04:27,653 --> 01:04:31,293
Speaker 3: very clear. But we are in World War three right now,

1076
01:04:32,253 --> 01:04:35,253
Speaker 3: and there are civil wars happening all around the world,

1077
01:04:35,453 --> 01:04:38,613
Speaker 3: in America and the UK and Europe to a lesser

1078
01:04:38,693 --> 01:04:40,653
Speaker 3: extent here in New Zealand if you look at some

1079
01:04:40,733 --> 01:04:43,293
Speaker 3: of the antics of our activists in Parliament on both

1080
01:04:43,373 --> 01:04:46,413
Speaker 3: sides as well. But I don't think it is going

1081
01:04:46,493 --> 01:04:48,933
Speaker 3: to be like the American Civil War where everybody goes

1082
01:04:48,973 --> 01:04:51,213
Speaker 3: and gets their rifles and guns own. World War three

1083
01:04:51,333 --> 01:04:54,853
Speaker 3: is an economic war, and the winner will be whichever

1084
01:04:54,933 --> 01:04:57,973
Speaker 3: country prints as much of their money as fast as

1085
01:04:58,053 --> 01:05:01,093
Speaker 3: possible and acquires the largest strategic bitcoin reserve.

1086
01:05:03,293 --> 01:05:06,253
Speaker 2: And on that note, John. Good to talk to you again.

1087
01:05:06,533 --> 01:05:08,133
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Ladin, really appreciate it.

1088
01:05:08,413 --> 01:05:11,733
Speaker 2: Actually been interesting, I hope so I seem to be interesting.

1089
01:05:12,613 --> 01:05:16,253
Speaker 2: Is he successful? You tell me? And I have a

1090
01:05:16,293 --> 01:05:37,053
Speaker 2: feeling we'll do it again now here we are set

1091
01:05:37,253 --> 01:05:39,853
Speaker 2: and ready for the mail room. In podcast number three

1092
01:05:39,933 --> 01:05:42,213
Speaker 2: hundred and twelve, missus producer, I speak for myself. I

1093
01:05:42,293 --> 01:05:46,173
Speaker 2: can't speak for you, as in what ready in set?

1094
01:05:47,773 --> 01:05:50,613
Speaker 4: I'm ready in set late. And it's taken a bit

1095
01:05:50,653 --> 01:05:53,773
Speaker 4: of work on your behalf, though, hasn't it to get

1096
01:05:53,893 --> 01:05:55,453
Speaker 4: Peter appear?

1097
01:05:55,613 --> 01:05:58,893
Speaker 2: I felt like I needed a sheep dog and a crook. Anyway.

1098
01:06:00,853 --> 01:06:03,333
Speaker 2: Let me lead with a note from No I'm going

1099
01:06:03,413 --> 01:06:07,693
Speaker 2: to save that one for a little, I think from

1100
01:06:07,773 --> 01:06:11,173
Speaker 2: George Late listening to your English lord to claim that

1101
01:06:11,293 --> 01:06:14,613
Speaker 2: a two state is the solution for peace? What will

1102
01:06:14,653 --> 01:06:18,053
Speaker 2: be the boundaries of this state? That is, what land

1103
01:06:18,093 --> 01:06:21,613
Speaker 2: will be allocated to form this state? Watched an Australian

1104
01:06:21,693 --> 01:06:25,293
Speaker 2: senator quizzing bureaucrats on the government's recognition of the state

1105
01:06:25,373 --> 01:06:29,213
Speaker 2: of Palestine. She asked, what are the boundaries of this state?

1106
01:06:29,773 --> 01:06:33,453
Speaker 2: What is the capital city? Where is the seat of government?

1107
01:06:34,133 --> 01:06:37,213
Speaker 2: There is no Palestine state. There will be no Palestine

1108
01:06:37,293 --> 01:06:42,173
Speaker 2: state because Islam decreed that land occupied by Islam. Mister

1109
01:06:42,213 --> 01:06:46,973
Speaker 2: word there. I feel, even though they had been, even

1110
01:06:47,053 --> 01:06:52,173
Speaker 2: though they had to be driven from the land belongs

1111
01:06:52,253 --> 01:06:56,173
Speaker 2: to Islam, Israel now occupies that land. Therefore Israel must

1112
01:06:56,213 --> 01:07:01,853
Speaker 2: be driven from the land. George, I think, while acknowledging

1113
01:07:01,933 --> 01:07:04,453
Speaker 2: that you're entitled to your opinion, it's unclear to me

1114
01:07:04,773 --> 01:07:07,813
Speaker 2: in its totality, but I think you're on the wrong track.

1115
01:07:09,173 --> 01:07:12,133
Speaker 4: Leyton Claire says I was mightily impressed with Stephen Rowe.

1116
01:07:13,253 --> 01:07:16,693
Speaker 4: He was so accurate when saying most Internet searchers pointed

1117
01:07:16,733 --> 01:07:17,533
Speaker 4: to the footballer.

1118
01:07:17,813 --> 01:07:24,693
Speaker 2: What does that mean? Oh? He made reference to before

1119
01:07:24,773 --> 01:07:29,373
Speaker 2: he interviewed people that he'd always search them, right, And

1120
01:07:29,493 --> 01:07:32,053
Speaker 2: I told him that I searched for him, Stephen Rowe,

1121
01:07:32,093 --> 01:07:34,213
Speaker 2: and all I got was Stephen Rowe, the footballer all

1122
01:07:34,293 --> 01:07:34,933
Speaker 2: over the place.

1123
01:07:35,813 --> 01:07:39,813
Speaker 4: M happens sometimes, doesn't it like that? C goes on

1124
01:07:39,933 --> 01:07:42,453
Speaker 4: to say, thanks for your conversation with him. He deserves

1125
01:07:42,533 --> 01:07:43,813
Speaker 4: more presents in our lives.

1126
01:07:44,133 --> 01:07:44,413
Speaker 3: M H.

1127
01:07:44,853 --> 01:07:51,213
Speaker 2: I agree with that. Well, maybe now from David, I'm

1128
01:07:51,213 --> 01:07:54,533
Speaker 2: afraid I have to disagree with your assessment on Stephen Rowe.

1129
01:07:55,653 --> 01:07:58,973
Speaker 2: The interview seemed to start reasonably well, despite being a

1130
01:07:59,373 --> 01:08:03,773
Speaker 2: typical modern, upfront, bright and bushy tailed young man from

1131
01:08:03,853 --> 01:08:06,813
Speaker 2: the Americas. No doubt about it, he is a very

1132
01:08:07,213 --> 01:08:11,493
Speaker 2: very good communicator. Early on, around the twenty two minute mark,

1133
01:08:11,693 --> 01:08:17,173
Speaker 2: there was talk of his thoughts about Israel and anti Semitism.

1134
01:08:17,293 --> 01:08:20,573
Speaker 2: He said, the Bible tells us the Jews are special,

1135
01:08:21,253 --> 01:08:26,013
Speaker 2: at least that's what Thomas Aquinas wrote, the impression being

1136
01:08:26,093 --> 01:08:29,173
Speaker 2: that Israeli people, well, in the main it's the politicians

1137
01:08:29,213 --> 01:08:32,093
Speaker 2: at IDF, but the Israeli people have carte blanche to

1138
01:08:32,133 --> 01:08:34,893
Speaker 2: do whatever they wish, and haven't they been doing that?

1139
01:08:35,693 --> 01:08:40,133
Speaker 2: There was no admission that what the IDF has been

1140
01:08:40,253 --> 01:08:44,573
Speaker 2: doing over the last two years constitutes war crimes, and

1141
01:08:45,053 --> 01:08:47,373
Speaker 2: that there is no place in our world for such

1142
01:08:47,533 --> 01:08:51,693
Speaker 2: adherant and atrocious behavior, and that he says below is

1143
01:08:51,933 --> 01:08:53,493
Speaker 2: for you and does not need to be read out

1144
01:08:53,533 --> 01:08:56,453
Speaker 2: if you prefer not to, but for an inse I will.

1145
01:08:56,813 --> 01:08:59,693
Speaker 2: And he's talking about an insight to a particular group,

1146
01:09:01,013 --> 01:09:04,173
Speaker 2: and I'm unclear what it is, but he finishes up

1147
01:09:04,253 --> 01:09:07,773
Speaker 2: with saying, by way of contrast, it looks like I'm

1148
01:09:07,813 --> 01:09:12,733
Speaker 2: in for a real treat with your guest. On three eleven, David,

1149
01:09:13,453 --> 01:09:16,333
Speaker 2: I haven't heard from you on my guest on three eleven,

1150
01:09:19,973 --> 01:09:21,013
Speaker 2: and I think I know why.

1151
01:09:22,173 --> 01:09:25,373
Speaker 4: But all wait, Layton John says, I so enjoyed your

1152
01:09:25,453 --> 01:09:29,573
Speaker 4: interview with Lord David Wolfson. His balanced responses were courageous

1153
01:09:29,733 --> 01:09:33,813
Speaker 4: and reinforced that the values and accrude wisdom of generations

1154
01:09:34,453 --> 01:09:38,933
Speaker 4: are of huge value and worth defending. My father was

1155
01:09:39,013 --> 01:09:42,093
Speaker 4: a judge both here and on the Privy Council. We

1156
01:09:42,213 --> 01:09:44,173
Speaker 4: grew up in a household where the rule of law

1157
01:09:44,373 --> 01:09:47,893
Speaker 4: and the importance of due process was an integral part

1158
01:09:47,933 --> 01:09:53,053
Speaker 4: of all relationships. Lord Wolfson enunciated that importance, but also

1159
01:09:53,253 --> 01:09:57,013
Speaker 4: spoke to the threats that interview should be compulsory for

1160
01:09:57,173 --> 01:10:00,413
Speaker 4: all the current members of our parliament and legal profession.

1161
01:10:00,653 --> 01:10:01,693
Speaker 4: That's from John.

1162
01:10:01,613 --> 01:10:05,253
Speaker 2: John, very good. In fact, that's arguably I was going

1163
01:10:05,333 --> 01:10:07,133
Speaker 2: to say, that's arguably the best of the week, but

1164
01:10:07,213 --> 01:10:10,533
Speaker 2: the stiller coverlor go. Now. A couple of weeks back,

1165
01:10:11,293 --> 01:10:15,333
Speaker 2: George wrote to me and I said, at the end

1166
01:10:15,333 --> 01:10:20,293
Speaker 2: of the letter, I said something about I needed more explanation,

1167
01:10:22,053 --> 01:10:25,373
Speaker 2: and he wrote, this is late. In my apologies. I

1168
01:10:25,493 --> 01:10:28,533
Speaker 2: was not intended to be confusing, but maybe the message

1169
01:10:28,613 --> 01:10:33,013
Speaker 2: was a little cryptic climate change is not a scam.

1170
01:10:33,173 --> 01:10:36,533
Speaker 2: Quote unquote was in reference to the statement that followed,

1171
01:10:37,493 --> 01:10:39,293
Speaker 2: we would still be in the ice Age if the

1172
01:10:39,333 --> 01:10:43,613
Speaker 2: climate didn't change the planet. Well, that's not necessarily true,

1173
01:10:43,693 --> 01:10:46,213
Speaker 2: because before the Ice Age there was not the ice Age,

1174
01:10:46,253 --> 01:10:48,013
Speaker 2: so we might have stayed there if there was. You know,

1175
01:10:48,733 --> 01:10:52,253
Speaker 2: I think that makes sense. Anyway, we would still be

1176
01:10:52,293 --> 01:10:55,293
Speaker 2: in the ice Age. The planet has been through countless

1177
01:10:55,333 --> 01:10:59,133
Speaker 2: warm periods and cool but you already know all of that.

1178
01:10:59,813 --> 01:11:02,733
Speaker 2: You and I both agree that the cause of any

1179
01:11:02,813 --> 01:11:07,293
Speaker 2: current warming is very much in question. The real scams

1180
01:11:07,413 --> 01:11:11,573
Speaker 2: are the political constructs that have emerged as solutions. The

1181
01:11:11,733 --> 01:11:15,733
Speaker 2: ets allows for continued fossil fuel combustion as long as

1182
01:11:15,773 --> 01:11:17,333
Speaker 2: you plant a tree on the other side of the

1183
01:11:17,413 --> 01:11:20,493
Speaker 2: world with a couple of question marks, and I understand

1184
01:11:20,533 --> 01:11:23,853
Speaker 2: what you mean by that. We pay the price as

1185
01:11:23,933 --> 01:11:28,133
Speaker 2: more productive farmland is lost to this folly, simply because

1186
01:11:28,253 --> 01:11:32,693
Speaker 2: the scam has been engineered to be so lucrative. Billions

1187
01:11:32,733 --> 01:11:36,133
Speaker 2: of dollars are paid as offsets for emissions. Where this

1188
01:11:36,253 --> 01:11:40,013
Speaker 2: money goes and what is achieved with it is an

1189
01:11:40,253 --> 01:11:45,293
Speaker 2: enduring mystery. Kyoto Protocol, Paras Accord and ongoing cops meetings

1190
01:11:45,373 --> 01:11:51,213
Speaker 2: of long haul flights hypocrites. The political scam knows no bounds.

1191
01:11:51,733 --> 01:11:54,093
Speaker 2: I hope this clarifies by ramblings. All the best and

1192
01:11:54,173 --> 01:11:56,973
Speaker 2: keep up the good work and good health to you both. George,

1193
01:11:57,893 --> 01:12:00,333
Speaker 2: you didn't have to apologize. I don't mind a bit

1194
01:12:00,373 --> 01:12:05,653
Speaker 2: of your position. On the odd occasion, however, I happen

1195
01:12:05,773 --> 01:12:11,333
Speaker 2: to hear the Breakfast Hosts editorial at six zero seven

1196
01:12:11,413 --> 01:12:14,693
Speaker 2: or whatever it is this morning, this morning being Tuesday,

1197
01:12:14,773 --> 01:12:18,053
Speaker 2: the twenty fifth. If you haven't heard it, I suggest

1198
01:12:18,173 --> 01:12:23,013
Speaker 2: you do, because it showed that the breakfast host has

1199
01:12:23,293 --> 01:12:30,293
Speaker 2: finally finally peaked in his opinion on global warming matters.

1200
01:12:30,453 --> 01:12:36,173
Speaker 2: It was excellent. Congratulations, Mike Leighton Jin says.

1201
01:12:36,213 --> 01:12:39,253
Speaker 4: When Lord David Wilson's remarked that we need to have

1202
01:12:39,373 --> 01:12:43,053
Speaker 4: the confidence to be muscular about defending our values, I

1203
01:12:43,173 --> 01:12:46,533
Speaker 4: asked myself, what is the single most important value today?

1204
01:12:46,973 --> 01:12:50,893
Speaker 4: The answer, I concluded was truth. Look at the recent

1205
01:12:51,053 --> 01:12:55,333
Speaker 4: BBC scandal where they maliciously spliced, fabricated, and changed the

1206
01:12:55,573 --> 01:12:59,293
Speaker 4: entire meeting of Donald Trump's January sixth speech. I can

1207
01:12:59,333 --> 01:13:01,853
Speaker 4: see why you've given me this now Later, thank you.

1208
01:13:03,333 --> 01:13:04,213
Speaker 3: BBC tried to.

1209
01:13:04,253 --> 01:13:07,413
Speaker 4: Convince us that it wasn't deliberate, but as US commentator

1210
01:13:07,533 --> 01:13:10,293
Speaker 4: Ben Shapiro pointed out, the BBC had to cut from

1211
01:13:10,373 --> 01:13:13,813
Speaker 4: one part of Trump's speech, then fast forwarded it by

1212
01:13:13,933 --> 01:13:16,533
Speaker 4: fifty minutes and cut to the last part of the

1213
01:13:16,613 --> 01:13:20,133
Speaker 4: speech in order to fabricate and publish this lie. And

1214
01:13:20,253 --> 01:13:23,013
Speaker 4: it took one whole year to admit their crime only

1215
01:13:23,093 --> 01:13:27,053
Speaker 4: because the BBC whistleblower, Michael Prescott, leaked to dossier to

1216
01:13:27,133 --> 01:13:31,053
Speaker 4: expose them. Heather Dupla Cy Allen's recent newstalk said be

1217
01:13:31,173 --> 01:13:34,733
Speaker 4: opinion piece highlighted that the BBC not only lied about Trump,

1218
01:13:35,253 --> 01:13:38,293
Speaker 4: they lied about hamas they lied about trans issues and

1219
01:13:38,453 --> 01:13:42,213
Speaker 4: many other things. Imagine what the media agencies would be

1220
01:13:42,293 --> 01:13:46,373
Speaker 4: doing with AI. Truth is and always will be the

1221
01:13:46,453 --> 01:13:50,453
Speaker 4: greatest value of all time. And to paraphrase Lord David Wolfson,

1222
01:13:50,533 --> 01:13:53,733
Speaker 4: we need to have the confidence to be muscular about

1223
01:13:53,813 --> 01:13:58,333
Speaker 4: defending the truth. Dr Muriel Newman reminded us that credible

1224
01:13:58,453 --> 01:14:03,973
Speaker 4: media isn't a luxury, it's a democratic necessity. Suppressing truth

1225
01:14:04,133 --> 01:14:08,933
Speaker 4: simply enslaves us. Unleashing truth sets us free. Thanks for

1226
01:14:09,053 --> 01:14:11,813
Speaker 4: being one of the bastions of truth in new media.

1227
01:14:13,573 --> 01:14:17,053
Speaker 2: Very nice now, if I remember correctly, there's some the

1228
01:14:17,133 --> 01:14:21,653
Speaker 2: ps there. Yes, PS, GARYL and I'm so glad to

1229
01:14:21,693 --> 01:14:25,053
Speaker 2: hear that you're okay after your bad fall. Please do

1230
01:14:25,213 --> 01:14:29,253
Speaker 2: take care. We can't afford to have any more bad falls.

1231
01:14:30,093 --> 01:14:31,333
Speaker 4: That's true, thank you, Jim.

1232
01:14:31,453 --> 01:14:33,333
Speaker 2: No, I cannot afford to have anymore.

1233
01:14:34,213 --> 01:14:34,933
Speaker 4: But all good.

1234
01:14:35,093 --> 01:14:39,773
Speaker 2: I'm in one piece. You are, finally from Paul Latent,

1235
01:14:40,533 --> 01:14:44,773
Speaker 2: Peter Teal got to mention in podcast three eleven. Below

1236
01:14:44,933 --> 01:14:47,973
Speaker 2: is an attachment to a piece by the great Bruce

1237
01:14:48,093 --> 01:14:53,853
Speaker 2: Thornton that points out Peter Teel's overly simplistic outlook. PS.

1238
01:14:53,973 --> 01:14:57,133
Speaker 2: All of your podcasts have been great this year. Thank you.

1239
01:14:57,213 --> 01:15:02,453
Speaker 2: Paul appreciated the article. This is interesting because us have

1240
01:15:02,533 --> 01:15:03,893
Speaker 2: a look at it now. When I was reading this

1241
01:15:04,173 --> 01:15:11,533
Speaker 2: online and it came up or blocked out, so I

1242
01:15:11,653 --> 01:15:14,973
Speaker 2: tried it again, as you're blocked out not letting you in.

1243
01:15:16,293 --> 01:15:21,173
Speaker 2: Eventually I wound my way through multiple other sources and

1244
01:15:21,413 --> 01:15:26,293
Speaker 2: got there. And Bruce Thoughton is a very very good writer,

1245
01:15:26,853 --> 01:15:30,933
Speaker 2: and this was the piece that Paul was talking about

1246
01:15:31,693 --> 01:15:34,013
Speaker 2: the real problem with higher education. I'm not going to

1247
01:15:34,093 --> 01:15:36,453
Speaker 2: read it. I might throw it in later on or

1248
01:15:36,693 --> 01:15:42,373
Speaker 2: at another time, because it's worthy of it. The seemingly

1249
01:15:42,533 --> 01:15:46,813
Speaker 2: growing popularity of socialism and the election of socialists Zorin

1250
01:15:47,173 --> 01:15:51,853
Speaker 2: Mamdani as New York City's new mayor, have led billionaire

1251
01:15:51,933 --> 01:15:56,013
Speaker 2: Peter Thiel to reprise a twenty twenty email that explained

1252
01:15:56,133 --> 01:16:01,653
Speaker 2: with a simple theory quote why millennials are attracted to

1253
01:16:01,773 --> 01:16:07,493
Speaker 2: socialism and down on capitalism. And that'll do. But if

1254
01:16:07,533 --> 01:16:11,453
Speaker 2: you want to find it, just search The Real Problem

1255
01:16:11,573 --> 01:16:16,413
Speaker 2: with Higher Education by Bruce Thornton. And he starts, by

1256
01:16:16,453 --> 01:16:20,933
Speaker 2: the way, with a reference to Michael Fincher's new book,

1257
01:16:21,533 --> 01:16:25,933
Speaker 2: A Time to Stand. Professor Jason Hill calls it an

1258
01:16:26,253 --> 01:16:31,213
Speaker 2: esthetic and political tour de force. I looked at the

1259
01:16:31,253 --> 01:16:34,053
Speaker 2: book and I'm getting it. So you might want to

1260
01:16:34,293 --> 01:16:37,333
Speaker 2: follow up, missus producer, Thank you, Thank you later. We'll

1261
01:16:37,333 --> 01:16:39,373
Speaker 2: see you again next week as all that and look

1262
01:16:39,413 --> 01:16:56,413
Speaker 2: forward to it. Okay. To conclude this podcast, there was

1263
01:16:56,453 --> 01:17:01,573
Speaker 2: another book that I pulled out, Greg Clydesdale. Greg Clydesdale

1264
01:17:02,133 --> 01:17:04,933
Speaker 2: was when he wrote this book a professor at the

1265
01:17:05,213 --> 01:17:10,453
Speaker 2: University of Canterbury, The Politically Direct Economy, and he came

1266
01:17:10,533 --> 01:17:14,173
Speaker 2: in for a great deal of persecution because of it.

1267
01:17:14,613 --> 01:17:17,693
Speaker 2: This is one of four books that he published. I

1268
01:17:17,773 --> 01:17:20,693
Speaker 2: think we did him on the podcast twice back in

1269
01:17:20,773 --> 01:17:25,093
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen or thereabouts, but this book is still as

1270
01:17:25,213 --> 01:17:29,213
Speaker 2: relevant today as it was then. Back cover most important,

1271
01:17:29,253 --> 01:17:34,973
Speaker 2: Doctor Clydesdale explains how political correctness has undermined information flows

1272
01:17:35,133 --> 01:17:38,733
Speaker 2: and policy advice, with the consequence that the economy has

1273
01:17:38,773 --> 01:17:43,253
Speaker 2: traveled a slow growth path. The clerk Key governments were

1274
01:17:43,493 --> 01:17:47,893
Speaker 2: years of wasted opportunity. Clydesdale argues that unless we return

1275
01:17:47,973 --> 01:17:50,733
Speaker 2: to the real world, we will continue on this slow

1276
01:17:50,813 --> 01:17:55,253
Speaker 2: growth path and our global rankings will decline as countries

1277
01:17:55,373 --> 01:17:59,653
Speaker 2: in Asia and Eastern Europe passes by. Look at history

1278
01:18:00,413 --> 01:18:03,973
Speaker 2: now from toward the end of the book, time to

1279
01:18:04,053 --> 01:18:07,773
Speaker 2: face facts. Since the late nineteen eighties, economists and their

1280
01:18:07,813 --> 01:18:11,293
Speaker 2: models have told us that high levels of immigration would

1281
01:18:11,373 --> 01:18:16,133
Speaker 2: generate economic growth. With twenty five years of experience behind us,

1282
01:18:16,533 --> 01:18:20,733
Speaker 2: we can now conclude that the policy has failed. We

1283
01:18:20,853 --> 01:18:24,533
Speaker 2: were sold a lemon. Only the property developers and construction

1284
01:18:24,733 --> 01:18:27,333
Speaker 2: companies can smile, while the rest of the country must

1285
01:18:27,493 --> 01:18:31,613
Speaker 2: shoulder the cost of new infrastructure to accommodate the growing population.

1286
01:18:31,773 --> 01:18:35,813
Speaker 2: New Zealand has been traveling a low growth path, building

1287
01:18:35,933 --> 01:18:40,333
Speaker 2: capabilities in construction, cafes and retail to get back on

1288
01:18:40,453 --> 01:18:43,533
Speaker 2: the high growth path. We need to reduce the quantity

1289
01:18:43,613 --> 01:18:48,213
Speaker 2: of migrants and focus on quality. The next government needs

1290
01:18:48,293 --> 01:18:53,333
Speaker 2: to restrict net immigration to less than fifteen thousand and

1291
01:18:53,573 --> 01:18:57,053
Speaker 2: focus on the skills that we genuinely need. At the

1292
01:18:57,093 --> 01:19:00,253
Speaker 2: same time, we need to build capabilities of all New Zealanders.

1293
01:19:01,253 --> 01:19:05,333
Speaker 2: An efficient domestic labor market with skills training that accurately

1294
01:19:05,373 --> 01:19:09,213
Speaker 2: addresses the needs of employers is the key to an

1295
01:19:09,373 --> 01:19:12,373
Speaker 2: affluent society. It is the way in which we can

1296
01:19:12,453 --> 01:19:16,413
Speaker 2: reduce unemployment, provide training and careers for our young, and

1297
01:19:16,813 --> 01:19:20,333
Speaker 2: reduce the pressure on house prices. And then the final

1298
01:19:20,413 --> 01:19:23,693
Speaker 2: chapter is my experience of political correctness, which I won't

1299
01:19:23,773 --> 01:19:29,493
Speaker 2: go into, but the treatment that he received from authorities

1300
01:19:29,773 --> 01:19:33,293
Speaker 2: of various kinds, including universities, is something that should be

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01:19:33,373 --> 01:19:37,813
Speaker 2: condemned out of sight. Now that will take us out

1302
01:19:37,933 --> 01:19:41,213
Speaker 2: for podcast number three hundred and twelve. If you'd like

1303
01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:43,733
Speaker 2: to write to us Latent at newstalk ZB dot co

1304
01:19:43,893 --> 01:19:47,693
Speaker 2: dot Nz and Carolyn with a wire Caro l Ym

1305
01:19:47,933 --> 01:19:52,013
Speaker 2: at newstalk ZB dot co dot Nz. So it's three

1306
01:19:52,093 --> 01:19:56,253
Speaker 2: hundred and thirteen next week. Let v my lucky number

1307
01:19:56,253 --> 01:19:58,253
Speaker 2: of looking forward to it. I think so with that

1308
01:19:58,373 --> 01:20:03,173
Speaker 2: in mind as always. Thank you for listening and we

1309
01:20:03,293 --> 01:20:04,013
Speaker 2: shall talk soon.

1310
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Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen

1311
01:20:15,733 --> 01:20:18,653
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1312
01:20:18,773 --> 01:20:21,933
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio