1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: Hilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: appearance of three Chinese warships so close to our borders 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: has surprised and confused Australian and New Zealand officials. The 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: ships issued a live fire warning off Australia's east coast, 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: forcing commercial flights to change course. Then, on Saturday afternoon, 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: sailors on a New Zealand Navy frigate saw live rounds 8 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: being fired from a Chinese vessel's main gun. Beijing's now 9 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: under scrutiny for not warning Australia or New Zealand of 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: drills being performed in the Tasman Sea. All this comes 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: as tensions between New Zealand and our Pacific neighbors are 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: at an all time high. Today on the Front Page, 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: Waikato University's Algillespie updates us on what's going on on 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: the first of Alexander. Can you tell us what's going 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: on here? 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: Well? 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 3: A number of things have been happening, but the most 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 3: recent one is that there's three Chinese naval vessels in 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 3: Betasman conducting a operation which involves live firing and this 20 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 3: is causing a considerable degree of discomfort on both sides 21 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 3: of the Tasman Sea. 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Christopher Lackson said that they're monitoring, shadowing and 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: tracking the fleet, adding that China is acting in accordance 24 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: with international law. Now what does that mean? What does 25 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: the international law allow them. 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 3: To do so? The Law of the Sea nineteen eighties 27 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 3: convention from the United Nations divides the ocean into the 28 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: high seas, the Territorial Sea, which is of nautical miles, 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: and themb Exclusive Economic Zone, which is two hundred pudical miles. 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: If vessels are in the high Sea, they have a 31 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: considerable amount of freedom to transit and operate as they 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 3: see fit, provided that they're under a flag, of which 33 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: these Chinese vessels are. If they were in the Territorial Sea, 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: they wouldn't be able to conduct war games as they're doing, 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: but they're not, so what they're doing is completely legal 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 3: and lawful. There are additional rules that prevent naval boats 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 3: from opposing sides, bumping into each other and having accidents 38 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: or miscalculation. And these rules apply to China just like 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 3: they applied to New Zealand and Australia and the sharing 40 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 3: of the information that the Chinese authorities have done so 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: far about the live firing. They are in full accordance 42 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: with these rules. 43 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: What would them breaking international law look like? When should 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: we start getting worried. 45 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 3: It would be a concern if they conducted military exercises 46 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: and the exclusive economic zone, and especially in the territorial Sea, 47 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 3: like if they got closer and closer to the shore. 48 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: There are additional rules around submarines of which you should 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 3: have certain notification if you've got opposing navies close to 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: each other, or if our boats and their boats started 51 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: to bump in to each other, or there were near 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: misses or potential accidents, that's when you need to get 53 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 3: start concerned. And you've certainly seen this in the South 54 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: China Sea where Australian Philippine or Philippine boats Filippino boats 55 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 3: will bump into some of the Chinese boats and it's 56 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 3: certainly a cause for tension, and there is a risk 57 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: to security and not just to the aviators and the 58 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: sea personnel if something goes wrong, and so we try 59 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 3: to manage this, but that is not what's happened in 60 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: Potasman Sea right now. It's quite calm and it's fully adderly. 61 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: Three Chinese warships have been quietly stalking Australia's eastern coast, 62 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: but today their silent sale South ended. Nine News understands 63 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: that about ten fifteen this morning, pilots from three commercial 64 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: jets flying between Australia and New Zealand heard a broadcast 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: from one of the warships warning of an emminent live 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: fire exercise. 67 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: We are aware of this task group. 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 4: We are monitoring this task group very closely. 69 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: It is, as I. 70 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 5: Understand it, operating in international waters. They have no reason 71 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 5: to do live firing exercises in the waters between New 72 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 5: Zealand and Australia other than to demonstrate an aggressive, provocative 73 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 5: set of behavior. 74 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: So is China required to say, give notice of a 75 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: live firing so close to a commercial flight path or 76 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: is that just considered good. 77 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: Manners to rule under the code that to prevent unexpected encounters. 78 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: But they have done this, It would have been more 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 3: positive if they had telegraphed this information in advance to 80 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 3: the national authorities and not just to the civil aviators. 81 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 3: And it would have been good faith to have not 82 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: just told the embassies but also the extent of them, 83 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 3: where they're going, why they're doing it, so that it 84 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: could have been dealt with better than it's been dealt with, 85 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 3: but certainly not illegal. 86 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: Our Defense Minister Judith Collins has said both US and 87 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: Australia aren't worried. 88 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 4: Well, I think that they are very much like us. 89 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 4: They're aware of the situation. I don't think that anyone's 90 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: particularly worried. We're just aware that this is a new 91 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 4: thing that we've seen, which is an incredibly capable task 92 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 4: group coming down into an area where we haven't seen 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 4: them before and where they've undertaken live firing with only 94 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 4: a few hours notice. 95 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 1: Is that fair or should we be more worried? 96 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 3: In terms of what's going on in p Tasman, there's 97 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: absolutely no cause for concern. But where there is course 98 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: for concern is when you see it in terms of 99 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: a wider pattern, and that is not just dispute to 100 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 3: the South China Sea, but also recent problems like that 101 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: the Cook Islands which have changed our relationship significantly, or 102 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 3: concerns that you might have had recently with the ES 103 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: and the monitoring of Chinese populations in New Zealand by 104 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: the PRC SO the overall relationship of which this current 105 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 3: problem needs to be added to, adds to a greater 106 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 3: level of discomfort. And that's coming at a time when 107 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 3: New Zealand is trying to find its place in the world, 108 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 3: and especially with the new Trump administration. 109 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you mentioned there. All of this is happening 110 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: after the Cook Islands signed a memorandum of understanding with China, 111 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: including a five year agreement for sea bed mining. Does 112 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: that mean we'll be seeing a fair bit more of 113 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: China in our end of the world. 114 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 3: It means you're going to see more Chinese influence in 115 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 3: the Cook Islands. And you know, we need to be 116 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: clear here. Influence isn't necessarily a bad thing if it's 117 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: done for multilaterally agreed sustainable development and its humanitarian and 118 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: its aid and it's not debt, and so that there 119 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 3: is areas for cooperation. But what you're seeing increasingly is 120 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 3: bilateral initiatives where New Zealand has been told this isn't 121 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 3: your interest. You know, you shouldn't be involved in this area. 122 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 3: And that's a real concern because New Zealand's relationship with 123 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: the Cooks is quite unique and we do have a 124 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 3: concerned over security and sensitivities at the moment that need 125 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: to be more respected than they were. And so to me, 126 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: the concern is not just the sea bed mining or 127 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: the infrastructure deals. It's the ongoing relationship and how these 128 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: new deals may alter that and that will change the 129 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 3: relationship with both the Cook Islands and New Zealand and 130 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: China and New Zealand. 131 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: But we're seeing the live firings in the Tasman and 132 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: in those plans for a significant strategic presence in the 133 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: Cook Islands by China are all within the space of 134 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: a few weeks. This can't be a coincidence, can it. 135 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: It's unlikely to be a coincidence. Often you will find 136 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: that China will respond and it will speak out loudly 137 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: or act in a particularly false full way when something 138 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: happens which they aren't happy with. So in twenty twenty four, 139 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 3: a New Zealand frigate and an Australian vessel went through 140 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: the Taiwanese Straight and then within a few days we 141 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: saw China test an intercontinental missile, which a dummy missile 142 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: which splashed down in the South Pacific. Coincidence may be 143 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 3: more likely to be a message that we need to 144 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 3: be careful what we're doing, and that the complacency that 145 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: New Zealand has had for a long time is now 146 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 3: questionable because the world is changing. 147 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: And it's true, isn't it that we don't know what 148 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: those warships are doing. What could they be doing. 149 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: They're probably just practicing like our vessels practice, and that 150 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: this is not normal or unusual. If there were submarines involved, 151 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: it would raise our level of concern and in a 152 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: good faith relationship if they are out there. China would 153 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: say that these vessels are in the vicinity and the 154 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 3: reasons you're concerned about those is that if our naval 155 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 3: vessels stumbled over their, especially if they were submerged, it 156 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: just adds unnecessary extra tension. I don't see anything malicious 157 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 3: or particularly dangerous with what they're doing on the high Sea. 158 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: It would have been a better relationship if they had 159 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: told us in advance, and if our relationships were freely 160 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: we could even have invited them into port for a 161 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 3: cup of tea. But we're not at that point where 162 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 3: we were a few years ago. 163 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: Australia and China have had a salty relationship in recent years, 164 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: and this incident hasn't really helped. Has Australia's Defense Minister, 165 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: Richard Miles, said Beijing had failed to give satisfactory reasons 166 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: for the inadequate notice given on Friday's live fire drill. 167 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, China's Defense Ministry spokespersons 168 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: said that Australia's complaints were hyped up and inconsistent with 169 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: the facts. Now, where do these tensions leave New Zealand? 170 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: Do you think how do we stay on good terms 171 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: with China without causing issues with Australia. 172 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: I think the reality of somewhere between the Chinese position 173 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: and the Australian position and that there's a lot of 174 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: tension and things could have been dealt with better in 175 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 3: in a more open and transparent, in an advanced way. 176 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: But what China is doing is not illegal if they 177 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: operate on the high seas as they are. What it 178 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 3: does for New Zealand, I think is bigger than the 179 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: current issue of what's going on in the Tasman. I 180 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: think what you're going to see is that New Zealand, 181 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 3: with the issues around the Cook Islands, with the issues 182 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 3: of the malicious behavior, with concerns about the cybersecurity, into 183 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: Parliament a few years ago. Is it pushes New Zealand 184 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 3: away from an independent foreign policy, and historically, whenever there's 185 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,119 Speaker 3: been threats to the region, we go back closer to Australia, 186 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 3: closer to Britain, and closer to the United States. And 187 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: all this is occurring at the time that we know 188 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: that the military budgets will be increasing, we know that 189 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 3: aucus is a possibility, and these actions push us towards 190 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: those relationships, not further away. And so ironically, China may 191 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: have just scored an own goal because they want New 192 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 3: Zealand to be independent, but they're creating tensions which push 193 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: us in the opposite direction. 194 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 6: Again, our issue is there's nothing illegal here in terms 195 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 6: of they are compliant with international law. It's the same 196 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 6: law that we rely upon as we move around the world. 197 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 6: But the issue for us is we just think, you know, 198 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 6: we'd appreciate a little bit more advanced notice, particularly on 199 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 6: what is a busy air route, one of the busiest 200 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 6: in the world, that we've actually got a bit more 201 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 6: time to respond to that. Having said that, our civil 202 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 6: aviation authorities are well used to this. They are in 203 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 6: a normal practice in the aviation and maritime world. They 204 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 6: have been coordinating well across the Tasman and importantly, at 205 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 6: no point have New Zealand or austral An assets been 206 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 6: in any danger. 207 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: Is the balance of power changing in our region. 208 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: I think it's been changing for a considerable amount of years. 209 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 3: It's only now it's very close to our shores. I 210 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: mean it's literally in the Cook Island or it's literally 211 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: has been see and these are things which are unprecedented 212 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: for a very long time. 213 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: What happens from here our How does New Zealand toe 214 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: the line of I guess being friendly without completely condoning 215 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: this kind of behavior. 216 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: We should always be reaching out for areas of cooperation. 217 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 3: We should always try to find an act in good faith. 218 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: But at the same time we need to sober up 219 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 3: with what the risks are and what is changing out 220 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 3: in our environment, and so continue to find the areas 221 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 3: where we can cooperate, where we can have peaceful coexistence. 222 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 3: But realistically we need to be prepared to move closer 223 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 3: towards our traditional friends and allies in the region. And 224 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: I think what you're likely to see is that the budget, 225 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 3: the military budgets will increase, the spend will increase, and 226 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: a deepening of our alliances which will be pivoted against 227 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: those who are not traditional in the area, the geographical area. 228 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: And you brought up Orchus as well. Do you think 229 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: incidents like this could sway public opinion when it comes 230 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: to things like orcus. A few polls have shown more 231 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: support for it than against. Could this push more people 232 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: towards perhaps supporting joining Pillar two? 233 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 3: It's not going to lessen to support for it. And 234 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: I think a number of people are now seeing not 235 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: just the one threat and betasment, but but the collection 236 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 3: of changing environment whereby our traditional interests are being undermined. 237 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 3: And New Zella knows we are big enough or strong 238 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 3: enough to support ourselves if times get hard. So we 239 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: will follow that traditional pattern and we will go back 240 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 3: towards Australia, we will go back towards Britain, and we 241 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: will go back towards the America. It's a difficult time 242 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 3: and it's not necessarily desirable to be doing that, but 243 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 3: people are scared of the alternative and they don't feel 244 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: safe with a number of these actions going on. Even 245 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 3: though they are legal, they are often threatening and they 246 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: change the strategic environment. 247 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Alexander, You're welcome Charlson. That's it 248 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: for this episode of the Front Page. Read more about 249 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzdherld dot co 250 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills 251 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer. I'm 252 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or 253 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 254 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: another look behind the headlines.