WEBVTT - How can NZ stand out in the global fight for AI minds?

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<v Speaker 1>Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New

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<v Speaker 1>Zealand's fight to attract the minds shaping the future in

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<v Speaker 1>tech could have just gotten a little bit harder. China

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<v Speaker 1>has a new visa which targets young STEM grads and

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<v Speaker 1>foreign tech talent. It's while a similar US visa now

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<v Speaker 1>comes with a one hundred thousand dollars fee attached. The

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<v Speaker 1>move has been described as boosting Beijing's fortunes in its

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<v Speaker 1>geopolitical rivalry with Washington. Today, on the front page, Victoria

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<v Speaker 1>University's senior lecturer in Artificial Intelligence Dtor Andrew Lenson is

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<v Speaker 1>with us to take a look at what makes this

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<v Speaker 1>country attractive and what might be holding us back. So, Andrew,

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<v Speaker 1>this new Chinese visa targets young foreign science, tech, engineering

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<v Speaker 1>and math graduates and promises to allow entry residents and

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<v Speaker 1>employment without a job offer. Would this be appealing to

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<v Speaker 1>the world's greatest young minds? Would you say?

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<v Speaker 2>Potentially? I mean, I think it does depend a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit on people's ambitions in life and some of their

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<v Speaker 2>world views. But we are seeing a lot of young,

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<v Speaker 2>bright minds who don't necessarily want to go to the

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<v Speaker 2>US because of what is happening there, but they still

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<v Speaker 2>want to be part of this really big sort of

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<v Speaker 2>technology revolution, right, And so somebody like China, who probably

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<v Speaker 2>is the second closest in terms of the opportunities in

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<v Speaker 2>that tech space, may be appealing to some. But as

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<v Speaker 2>we know, there's also a lot of people who don't

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<v Speaker 2>always agree with Chinese views or they are coach of things,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it might attract some, but I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 2>how impactful it will be in terms of, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>people from New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean some say that this is a sold

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<v Speaker 1>of changes in the US and how their visa system works.

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<v Speaker 1>How many of these young people dream of making it

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<v Speaker 1>to Silicon Valley. Is Silicon Valley the Hollywood for the

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<v Speaker 1>tech world?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it difinitely used to be. If you think

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<v Speaker 2>ten or fifteen years ago, right, everyone in my courses

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<v Speaker 2>would be thinking about going to Google or or going

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<v Speaker 2>to Facebook. And I think for a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>it still is that sort of holy grail. If you're

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<v Speaker 2>really into the technical research side, you want to make

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<v Speaker 2>these really big, large beggers models and things. But then

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<v Speaker 2>there's also a lot of people who are looking at

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<v Speaker 2>that and going, actually, no, that isn't really a line

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<v Speaker 2>of my values anymore. I don't really feel good about

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on in the US or in the big

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<v Speaker 2>tech companies because they see the impact on the environment

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<v Speaker 2>on social systems politically, and so it's appearing still for

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<v Speaker 2>some people who are certain, I guess drive, but not

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily as wide square as it used to be.

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<v Speaker 1>Is a gen z more conscious about the world around

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<v Speaker 1>them perhaps than us millennials or any other generation.

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<v Speaker 2>Were, I think definitely. I mean when I talk to

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<v Speaker 2>students about AI, right, a lot of them have objections

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<v Speaker 2>to how it's used, how these big companies have sort

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<v Speaker 2>of forced it on us, and how it's been sort

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<v Speaker 2>of deployed about looking at these environmental costs, these social costs,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think they are a lot more aware

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<v Speaker 2>or put a lot more credibility towards those parts of

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<v Speaker 2>the equation.

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<v Speaker 1>And perhaps we used to Is New Zealand doing enough

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<v Speaker 1>to attract this similar talent here.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a hard question because anyone will tell you we're small,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it's very hard for us to compete in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of developing some of these products we're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to make our own chat GBT, but at the same time,

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<v Speaker 2>we could really do some cool stuff in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>making AI trustworthy and showing the world how to do

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<v Speaker 2>this the right way and how to do it in

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<v Speaker 2>a way that puts people first. And I think that

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<v Speaker 2>is sort of the opportunity we have as one of

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<v Speaker 2>those moral leaders, and so on that basis, I think

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<v Speaker 2>resptively could be investing more both financially in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>attracting talent from overseas, but also in terms of hk

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<v Speaker 2>our own population, right, bringing up people from high school

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<v Speaker 2>university with those skills, and investing in education so that

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<v Speaker 2>we had the homegrown talent as well, because I think

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<v Speaker 2>we're never going to be able to offer those salaries

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<v Speaker 2>that let you see, you know, the moons and dollars

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<v Speaker 2>you see elsewhere, but we're can off sort of a lifestyle,

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps in a way of doing things that is more

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<v Speaker 2>aligned with views that people might hold.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's a really good point actually, because I read

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<v Speaker 1>as well that along you know, along with this China

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<v Speaker 1>visa opportunity, they've also done things like, for instance, home

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<v Speaker 1>purchase subsidies, signing bonuses of up to five million yuhan

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<v Speaker 1>or one point two million dollars. I mean, how how

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<v Speaker 1>do we compete with that? And you're saying, well, we could.

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<v Speaker 1>We could really cement ourselves as the morally ethically well

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<v Speaker 1>based Silicon Valley, right, Yeah, I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what we've done similar things in the world before,

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<v Speaker 2>when there was a nuclear free movement, or when we

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<v Speaker 2>gave universal suffrage too so that woman could vote, or

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<v Speaker 2>even some of the stuff with the christ it's called like,

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<v Speaker 2>we've made those headlines and those impacts beyond our scale before, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And so if we were purposeful about it, we too

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<v Speaker 2>could say, hey, this is how we want to do

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<v Speaker 2>AI in New Zealand. And I think that is also

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<v Speaker 2>not just the right thing to do, perhaps in many

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<v Speaker 2>people's views, but also an opportunity to set ourselves apart

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<v Speaker 2>economically as a provider of AI products and as a

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<v Speaker 2>trust we're replaced to do AI and to get AI

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<v Speaker 2>services from because we have if we had the things

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<v Speaker 2>in place to enable that. And so I think really

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually a gap in the market as well as

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<v Speaker 2>an appealing prospect for a lot of younger people.

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<v Speaker 1>How do we make that happen?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So I think quite a few things. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>there was that financial piece, so we would need to

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<v Speaker 2>invest in bringing talent here. We also need to invest

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<v Speaker 2>in education, so we had a funding of a tertiary

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<v Speaker 2>secondary school education systems, not just AI, but the rider sector.

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<v Speaker 2>So thinking about you know, the humanity, social sciences, because

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<v Speaker 2>all of those topics are really important as well when

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<v Speaker 2>we think about how to do this the right way,

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<v Speaker 2>but also looking at how we best regulate and best

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<v Speaker 2>put guard rails and manage this technology. Not again not

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<v Speaker 2>a stifle innovation, but to provide those certainties and those

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<v Speaker 2>sort of rules in place so that people, both our

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<v Speaker 2>own citizens as well a people overseas are trusting that

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing things in a good way and that there

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<v Speaker 2>are appropriate things in place. So I guess there's that

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<v Speaker 2>financial part, there's a education part, and then also sort

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<v Speaker 2>of a regulatory piece of work.

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<v Speaker 3>Personally, yeah, I've started using chat juputent, usually for research reasons,

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<v Speaker 3>like you know, like I might be interested in a

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<v Speaker 3>topic or a piece of history or something like that,

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<v Speaker 3>and I want to sort of get a quick distillation

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<v Speaker 3>of of something more for personal use. But with respect

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<v Speaker 3>to government, I mean, we really think AI is a

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<v Speaker 3>massive opportunity for Ye Zealand. One of the real challenges

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<v Speaker 3>we have is that we've not been We're all working

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<v Speaker 3>really hard in this country, but we haven't been able

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<v Speaker 3>to lift our standard of living over the last thirty years.

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<v Speaker 3>And a big reason for that. One of the big

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<v Speaker 3>contributing factors is we're not embracing enough technology innovation, and

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<v Speaker 3>certainly AI comes into their big time, because that's ultimately

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<v Speaker 3>how government will get much more efficient. It's ulterately how

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<v Speaker 3>our businesses will get more efficient as well.

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<v Speaker 1>When it comes to that education part, our kids today

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<v Speaker 1>taught well a are they taught anything about AI in

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<v Speaker 1>say high school, primary school or do they really have

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<v Speaker 1>to leave high school, you know, really interested in STEM

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<v Speaker 1>and then choose to do that maybe in higher education.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So we saw the Ministry of Education did announce

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<v Speaker 2>some work going forward to have AI as part of

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<v Speaker 2>the curriculum, and so that's a good I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 2>what it's going to look like exactly, but it looks

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<v Speaker 2>like there is some progress being made there. But at

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<v Speaker 2>least at the moment, very much is the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>self driven thing. Some digital technology teachers are putting it

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<v Speaker 2>more and more into their year twelve year through ing content,

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<v Speaker 2>but that often is driven by their own themselves, right,

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<v Speaker 2>It's not necessarily that they have the support to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>because that sort of thing is a lot of these

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<v Speaker 2>teachers haven't necessarily been trained in technology. They've been trained

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<v Speaker 2>in other areas and sort of been asked to teach

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<v Speaker 2>these courses because there's not anyone available. And so there's

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<v Speaker 2>also need to upskill people at high schools to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to deliver the education at that level. But also

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<v Speaker 2>we see when students come to university that often they

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<v Speaker 2>can be quite interested in it, and so we have

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<v Speaker 2>a first year AI course that is genuine entry. Anyone

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<v Speaker 2>can do it, and that's a really nice course because

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<v Speaker 2>they can sort of get a taste for it, and

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<v Speaker 2>then even if they don't end up during an AI degree,

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<v Speaker 2>they still have more knowledge about it. And again it's

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<v Speaker 2>about building that broader capability so that we have these

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<v Speaker 2>just understanding these conversations as.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and I guess just realizing that there is a

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<v Speaker 1>vast spectrum of job opportunities in the AI space. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't just become, oh, I'm an AI engineer. Now, like

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<v Speaker 1>there are specifics involved, right, There are different avenues that

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<v Speaker 1>you can don't go down.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, And something we're seeing a lot more of

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<v Speaker 2>as well is a demand not just for knowing about AI,

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<v Speaker 2>but also knowing about some other area of science, of

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<v Speaker 2>or of business. Right, so people who can understand AI

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<v Speaker 2>and how to apply it in a financial sector, or

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<v Speaker 2>understand AI and how to use it in healthcare. Often

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<v Speaker 2>it's having those joint sets of skills because it's not

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<v Speaker 2>as simple as just take your AI and plug it in.

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<v Speaker 2>You need to understand the problem, the data, the ethical

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<v Speaker 2>and moral issues as well. And so I think, as

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<v Speaker 2>you said, there's a lot of opportunities out there, and

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<v Speaker 2>I really encourage students to sort of take the most

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<v Speaker 2>they can at a university and get that broader diversity

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<v Speaker 2>of skill sets as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you seen your class size growing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so our first year class is at about two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty students this year. Yeah, it's busy. And

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<v Speaker 2>when we first offered it two years ago it was

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<v Speaker 2>about one hundred and thirty one hundred and forty, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's gone quite a bit. And our AI major, which

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<v Speaker 2>we're the first university to offer that in New Zealand,

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<v Speaker 2>has also gone a lot bigger. We have about sixty

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<v Speaker 2>or seventy students taking that through the whole program year

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<v Speaker 2>by year, and so there's certainly an uptake. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's one of our faster growing majors. And of course

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<v Speaker 2>I'm excited about that. Yeah, it's good.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you're in for a job for the foreseeable future,

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<v Speaker 1>and I mean I suppose I suppose these kids know

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<v Speaker 1>that as well, because when we look at the future

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<v Speaker 1>job market, I think that everyone is going to have

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<v Speaker 1>to know how at least how to use AI on

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<v Speaker 1>a basic level, just like everyone had to use, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>learn how to use touch phones.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think it's not

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<v Speaker 2>just being able to use those tools, right, It's not

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<v Speaker 2>just being able to use co pilot or chat GBT.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also about understanding enough about how they work under

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<v Speaker 2>the hood to know their limitations and their issues and things.

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<v Speaker 2>Because again, that is where we see a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the problems crop up, is when people misunderstand how these

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<v Speaker 2>models work, or they try and you ask it for

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<v Speaker 2>an answer to something that did wrong, and once you

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<v Speaker 2>know a bit about technology, you start to know why

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<v Speaker 2>that isn't quite effective. And so yeah, I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be a really important skill set, and even

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<v Speaker 2>just doing one or two courses can really position you

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<v Speaker 2>as a much more capable person going into the workforce. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And given how the world is going and how it's

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<v Speaker 1>progressing towards things like AI, do you think that the

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<v Speaker 1>tech and AI sector in New Zealand is well funded

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<v Speaker 1>at the moment?

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<v Speaker 2>No, of course not.

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<v Speaker 1>I was hoping you were going to say that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, look, our government has kind of cut

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<v Speaker 2>funding across all the sciences, and even though they are

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<v Speaker 2>sort of advocating more money for AI re to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of see what that will look like. There was an

0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.720
<v Speaker 2>announcement of seventy million dollars, but that's kind of old

0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.800
<v Speaker 2>funding for something else being reused over here, and so

0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.439
<v Speaker 2>it's not the investment that I would want to see again,

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<v Speaker 2>both in terms of supporting small medium businesses as well

0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.760
<v Speaker 2>as education sector and even research funding. Like as an

0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 2>AI researcher, I still have to compete to get funding

0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.240
<v Speaker 2>for things as I should, but there's not this massive

0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.640
<v Speaker 2>investment in funding to allow us to explore these issues

0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.320
<v Speaker 2>in AI or to talk about these and understand how

0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.800
<v Speaker 2>it impacts New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 1>And the importance on keeping those social sciences as well.

0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.160
<v Speaker 1>Is not only do we need people plugging in and

0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.839
<v Speaker 1>you know, making AI, I don't know what the terms are,

0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.680
<v Speaker 1>but we need to understand how it affects our life

0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.080
<v Speaker 1>and our society as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we saw that the government cut the Humanities

0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.600
<v Speaker 2>panel from the Mardson Fund this year, and that's one

0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.520
<v Speaker 2>of the biggest sort of blue sky what we call

0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.640
<v Speaker 2>blue sky research funds, which is research that is sort

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.599
<v Speaker 2>of know, very forward looking and looking at some of

0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>these bigger issues. And they're kind of funding for that

0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.800
<v Speaker 2>because they're more focus on this sort of economic growth model,

0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.280
<v Speaker 2>but need a lot of myself and my colleagues who

0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.760
<v Speaker 2>are AI people. So no, no, you can't do that.

0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 2>We need the humanities now, right, And so even if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't believe that humanity is important before, which is

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.640
<v Speaker 2>questionable at least with AI being in prison, you should

0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.800
<v Speaker 2>really see that it's important to fund there and have

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.120
<v Speaker 2>social science research about how we use the technology and

0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 2>how it impacts us as a society.

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.559
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for talking with us, Andrew.

0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.200
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.120
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 1>at nzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.720
<v Speaker 1>produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:50.400
<v Speaker 1>our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page

0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.080
<v Speaker 1>on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 1>in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.