Speaker 1: Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New
Speaker 1: Zealand's fight to attract the minds shaping the future in
Speaker 1: tech could have just gotten a little bit harder. China
Speaker 1: has a new visa which targets young STEM grads and
Speaker 1: foreign tech talent. It's while a similar US visa now
Speaker 1: comes with a one hundred thousand dollars fee attached. The
Speaker 1: move has been described as boosting Beijing's fortunes in its
Speaker 1: geopolitical rivalry with Washington. Today, on the front page, Victoria
Speaker 1: University's senior lecturer in Artificial Intelligence Dtor Andrew Lenson is
Speaker 1: with us to take a look at what makes this
Speaker 1: country attractive and what might be holding us back. So, Andrew,
Speaker 1: this new Chinese visa targets young foreign science, tech, engineering
Speaker 1: and math graduates and promises to allow entry residents and
Speaker 1: employment without a job offer. Would this be appealing to
Speaker 1: the world's greatest young minds? Would you say?
Speaker 2: Potentially? I mean, I think it does depend a little
Speaker 2: bit on people's ambitions in life and some of their
Speaker 2: world views. But we are seeing a lot of young,
Speaker 2: bright minds who don't necessarily want to go to the
Speaker 2: US because of what is happening there, but they still
Speaker 2: want to be part of this really big sort of
Speaker 2: technology revolution, right, And so somebody like China, who probably
Speaker 2: is the second closest in terms of the opportunities in
Speaker 2: that tech space, may be appealing to some. But as
Speaker 2: we know, there's also a lot of people who don't
Speaker 2: always agree with Chinese views or they are coach of things,
Speaker 2: and so it might attract some, but I'm not sure
Speaker 2: how impactful it will be in terms of, for example,
Speaker 2: people from New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean some say that this is a sold
Speaker 1: of changes in the US and how their visa system works.
Speaker 1: How many of these young people dream of making it
Speaker 1: to Silicon Valley. Is Silicon Valley the Hollywood for the
Speaker 1: tech world?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it difinitely used to be. If you think
Speaker 2: ten or fifteen years ago, right, everyone in my courses
Speaker 2: would be thinking about going to Google or or going
Speaker 2: to Facebook. And I think for a lot of people
Speaker 2: it still is that sort of holy grail. If you're
Speaker 2: really into the technical research side, you want to make
Speaker 2: these really big, large beggers models and things. But then
Speaker 2: there's also a lot of people who are looking at
Speaker 2: that and going, actually, no, that isn't really a line
Speaker 2: of my values anymore. I don't really feel good about
Speaker 2: what's going on in the US or in the big
Speaker 2: tech companies because they see the impact on the environment
Speaker 2: on social systems politically, and so it's appearing still for
Speaker 2: some people who are certain, I guess drive, but not
Speaker 2: necessarily as wide square as it used to be.
Speaker 1: Is a gen z more conscious about the world around
Speaker 1: them perhaps than us millennials or any other generation.
Speaker 2: Were, I think definitely. I mean when I talk to
Speaker 2: students about AI, right, a lot of them have objections
Speaker 2: to how it's used, how these big companies have sort
Speaker 2: of forced it on us, and how it's been sort
Speaker 2: of deployed about looking at these environmental costs, these social costs,
Speaker 2: and so I think they are a lot more aware
Speaker 2: or put a lot more credibility towards those parts of
Speaker 2: the equation.
Speaker 1: And perhaps we used to Is New Zealand doing enough
Speaker 1: to attract this similar talent here.
Speaker 2: That's a hard question because anyone will tell you we're small,
Speaker 2: and so it's very hard for us to compete in
Speaker 2: terms of developing some of these products we're not going
Speaker 2: to make our own chat GBT, but at the same time,
Speaker 2: we could really do some cool stuff in terms of
Speaker 2: making AI trustworthy and showing the world how to do
Speaker 2: this the right way and how to do it in
Speaker 2: a way that puts people first. And I think that
Speaker 2: is sort of the opportunity we have as one of
Speaker 2: those moral leaders, and so on that basis, I think
Speaker 2: resptively could be investing more both financially in terms of
Speaker 2: attracting talent from overseas, but also in terms of hk
Speaker 2: our own population, right, bringing up people from high school
Speaker 2: university with those skills, and investing in education so that
Speaker 2: we had the homegrown talent as well, because I think
Speaker 2: we're never going to be able to offer those salaries
Speaker 2: that let you see, you know, the moons and dollars
Speaker 2: you see elsewhere, but we're can off sort of a lifestyle,
Speaker 2: perhaps in a way of doing things that is more
Speaker 2: aligned with views that people might hold.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a really good point actually, because I read
Speaker 1: as well that along you know, along with this China
Speaker 1: visa opportunity, they've also done things like, for instance, home
Speaker 1: purchase subsidies, signing bonuses of up to five million yuhan
Speaker 1: or one point two million dollars. I mean, how how
Speaker 1: do we compete with that? And you're saying, well, we could.
Speaker 1: We could really cement ourselves as the morally ethically well
Speaker 1: based Silicon Valley, right, Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: And that's what we've done similar things in the world before,
Speaker 2: when there was a nuclear free movement, or when we
Speaker 2: gave universal suffrage too so that woman could vote, or
Speaker 2: even some of the stuff with the christ it's called like,
Speaker 2: we've made those headlines and those impacts beyond our scale before, right,
Speaker 2: And so if we were purposeful about it, we too
Speaker 2: could say, hey, this is how we want to do
Speaker 2: AI in New Zealand. And I think that is also
Speaker 2: not just the right thing to do, perhaps in many
Speaker 2: people's views, but also an opportunity to set ourselves apart
Speaker 2: economically as a provider of AI products and as a
Speaker 2: trust we're replaced to do AI and to get AI
Speaker 2: services from because we have if we had the things
Speaker 2: in place to enable that. And so I think really
Speaker 2: it's actually a gap in the market as well as
Speaker 2: an appealing prospect for a lot of younger people.
Speaker 1: How do we make that happen?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think quite a few things. Of course,
Speaker 2: there was that financial piece, so we would need to
Speaker 2: invest in bringing talent here. We also need to invest
Speaker 2: in education, so we had a funding of a tertiary
Speaker 2: secondary school education systems, not just AI, but the rider sector.
Speaker 2: So thinking about you know, the humanity, social sciences, because
Speaker 2: all of those topics are really important as well when
Speaker 2: we think about how to do this the right way,
Speaker 2: but also looking at how we best regulate and best
Speaker 2: put guard rails and manage this technology. Not again not
Speaker 2: a stifle innovation, but to provide those certainties and those
Speaker 2: sort of rules in place so that people, both our
Speaker 2: own citizens as well a people overseas are trusting that
Speaker 2: we're doing things in a good way and that there
Speaker 2: are appropriate things in place. So I guess there's that
Speaker 2: financial part, there's a education part, and then also sort
Speaker 2: of a regulatory piece of work.
Speaker 3: Personally, yeah, I've started using chat juputent, usually for research reasons,
Speaker 3: like you know, like I might be interested in a
Speaker 3: topic or a piece of history or something like that,
Speaker 3: and I want to sort of get a quick distillation
Speaker 3: of of something more for personal use. But with respect
Speaker 3: to government, I mean, we really think AI is a
Speaker 3: massive opportunity for Ye Zealand. One of the real challenges
Speaker 3: we have is that we've not been We're all working
Speaker 3: really hard in this country, but we haven't been able
Speaker 3: to lift our standard of living over the last thirty years.
Speaker 3: And a big reason for that. One of the big
Speaker 3: contributing factors is we're not embracing enough technology innovation, and
Speaker 3: certainly AI comes into their big time, because that's ultimately
Speaker 3: how government will get much more efficient. It's ulterately how
Speaker 3: our businesses will get more efficient as well.
Speaker 1: When it comes to that education part, our kids today
Speaker 1: taught well a are they taught anything about AI in
Speaker 1: say high school, primary school or do they really have
Speaker 1: to leave high school, you know, really interested in STEM
Speaker 1: and then choose to do that maybe in higher education.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we saw the Ministry of Education did announce
Speaker 2: some work going forward to have AI as part of
Speaker 2: the curriculum, and so that's a good I'm not sure
Speaker 2: what it's going to look like exactly, but it looks
Speaker 2: like there is some progress being made there. But at
Speaker 2: least at the moment, very much is the sort of
Speaker 2: self driven thing. Some digital technology teachers are putting it
Speaker 2: more and more into their year twelve year through ing content,
Speaker 2: but that often is driven by their own themselves, right,
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily that they have the support to do that,
Speaker 2: because that sort of thing is a lot of these
Speaker 2: teachers haven't necessarily been trained in technology. They've been trained
Speaker 2: in other areas and sort of been asked to teach
Speaker 2: these courses because there's not anyone available. And so there's
Speaker 2: also need to upskill people at high schools to be
Speaker 2: able to deliver the education at that level. But also
Speaker 2: we see when students come to university that often they
Speaker 2: can be quite interested in it, and so we have
Speaker 2: a first year AI course that is genuine entry. Anyone
Speaker 2: can do it, and that's a really nice course because
Speaker 2: they can sort of get a taste for it, and
Speaker 2: then even if they don't end up during an AI degree,
Speaker 2: they still have more knowledge about it. And again it's
Speaker 2: about building that broader capability so that we have these
Speaker 2: just understanding these conversations as.
Speaker 1: Well, and I guess just realizing that there is a
Speaker 1: vast spectrum of job opportunities in the AI space. You
Speaker 1: don't just become, oh, I'm an AI engineer. Now, like
Speaker 1: there are specifics involved, right, There are different avenues that
Speaker 1: you can don't go down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And something we're seeing a lot more of
Speaker 2: as well is a demand not just for knowing about AI,
Speaker 2: but also knowing about some other area of science, of
Speaker 2: or of business. Right, so people who can understand AI
Speaker 2: and how to apply it in a financial sector, or
Speaker 2: understand AI and how to use it in healthcare. Often
Speaker 2: it's having those joint sets of skills because it's not
Speaker 2: as simple as just take your AI and plug it in.
Speaker 2: You need to understand the problem, the data, the ethical
Speaker 2: and moral issues as well. And so I think, as
Speaker 2: you said, there's a lot of opportunities out there, and
Speaker 2: I really encourage students to sort of take the most
Speaker 2: they can at a university and get that broader diversity
Speaker 2: of skill sets as well.
Speaker 1: Have you seen your class size growing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so our first year class is at about two
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty students this year. Yeah, it's busy. And
Speaker 2: when we first offered it two years ago it was
Speaker 2: about one hundred and thirty one hundred and forty, so
Speaker 2: it's gone quite a bit. And our AI major, which
Speaker 2: we're the first university to offer that in New Zealand,
Speaker 2: has also gone a lot bigger. We have about sixty
Speaker 2: or seventy students taking that through the whole program year
Speaker 2: by year, and so there's certainly an uptake. I think
Speaker 2: it's one of our faster growing majors. And of course
Speaker 2: I'm excited about that. Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1: Well, you're in for a job for the foreseeable future,
Speaker 1: and I mean I suppose I suppose these kids know
Speaker 1: that as well, because when we look at the future
Speaker 1: job market, I think that everyone is going to have
Speaker 1: to know how at least how to use AI on
Speaker 1: a basic level, just like everyone had to use, you know,
Speaker 1: learn how to use touch phones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think it's not
Speaker 2: just being able to use those tools, right, It's not
Speaker 2: just being able to use co pilot or chat GBT.
Speaker 2: It's also about understanding enough about how they work under
Speaker 2: the hood to know their limitations and their issues and things.
Speaker 2: Because again, that is where we see a lot of
Speaker 2: the problems crop up, is when people misunderstand how these
Speaker 2: models work, or they try and you ask it for
Speaker 2: an answer to something that did wrong, and once you
Speaker 2: know a bit about technology, you start to know why
Speaker 2: that isn't quite effective. And so yeah, I think it's
Speaker 2: going to be a really important skill set, and even
Speaker 2: just doing one or two courses can really position you
Speaker 2: as a much more capable person going into the workforce. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And given how the world is going and how it's
Speaker 1: progressing towards things like AI, do you think that the
Speaker 1: tech and AI sector in New Zealand is well funded
Speaker 1: at the moment?
Speaker 2: No, of course not.
Speaker 1: I was hoping you were going to say that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, look, our government has kind of cut
Speaker 2: funding across all the sciences, and even though they are
Speaker 2: sort of advocating more money for AI re to sort
Speaker 2: of see what that will look like. There was an
Speaker 2: announcement of seventy million dollars, but that's kind of old
Speaker 2: funding for something else being reused over here, and so
Speaker 2: it's not the investment that I would want to see again,
Speaker 2: both in terms of supporting small medium businesses as well
Speaker 2: as education sector and even research funding. Like as an
Speaker 2: AI researcher, I still have to compete to get funding
Speaker 2: for things as I should, but there's not this massive
Speaker 2: investment in funding to allow us to explore these issues
Speaker 2: in AI or to talk about these and understand how
Speaker 2: it impacts New Zealand.
Speaker 1: And the importance on keeping those social sciences as well.
Speaker 1: Is not only do we need people plugging in and
Speaker 1: you know, making AI, I don't know what the terms are,
Speaker 1: but we need to understand how it affects our life
Speaker 1: and our society as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we saw that the government cut the Humanities
Speaker 2: panel from the Mardson Fund this year, and that's one
Speaker 2: of the biggest sort of blue sky what we call
Speaker 2: blue sky research funds, which is research that is sort
Speaker 2: of know, very forward looking and looking at some of
Speaker 2: these bigger issues. And they're kind of funding for that
Speaker 2: because they're more focus on this sort of economic growth model,
Speaker 2: but need a lot of myself and my colleagues who
Speaker 2: are AI people. So no, no, you can't do that.
Speaker 2: We need the humanities now, right, And so even if
Speaker 2: you don't believe that humanity is important before, which is
Speaker 2: questionable at least with AI being in prison, you should
Speaker 2: really see that it's important to fund there and have
Speaker 2: social science research about how we use the technology and
Speaker 2: how it impacts us as a society.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking with us, Andrew.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at nzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 1: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.