1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk zed B. Follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,692 --> 00:00:19,253 Speaker 2: Well New Zealander. Rob McCullum is a pioneer in the 4 00:00:19,253 --> 00:00:21,332 Speaker 2: world a deep sea dive, and he's broken the record 5 00:00:21,332 --> 00:00:24,533 Speaker 2: for the deepest dive to Challenger deep in the Marianas Trench, 6 00:00:24,573 --> 00:00:28,013 Speaker 2: the lowest point on Earth at almost eleven thousand meters 7 00:00:28,013 --> 00:00:30,812 Speaker 2: below sea level with the likes of James Cameron. He 8 00:00:30,933 --> 00:00:33,812 Speaker 2: was also a key voice in the incredibly popular Netflix 9 00:00:33,853 --> 00:00:37,253 Speaker 2: documentary Titaned the ocean Gate sub mercible disaster, where he 10 00:00:37,412 --> 00:00:40,772 Speaker 2: shares his attempts to warn founder Stockton of the immense 11 00:00:40,933 --> 00:00:43,933 Speaker 2: danger of that project before the tragic complosion in twenty 12 00:00:44,013 --> 00:00:46,172 Speaker 2: twenty three. It is a great pleasure to welcome Rob 13 00:00:46,253 --> 00:00:47,333 Speaker 2: McCullum to the show. 14 00:00:47,533 --> 00:00:48,733 Speaker 3: Good afternoon, Rob. 15 00:00:48,772 --> 00:00:51,733 Speaker 4: For listens who may not know your background, what first 16 00:00:51,853 --> 00:00:54,413 Speaker 4: drew you into deep sea expiration? Tell us a little 17 00:00:54,413 --> 00:00:57,212 Speaker 4: bit about your nostellar career, and then how did you 18 00:00:57,293 --> 00:00:58,693 Speaker 4: come to advise ocean Gate. 19 00:00:59,373 --> 00:01:03,053 Speaker 3: I started with six thousand meter vehicles working on Rex 20 00:01:03,133 --> 00:01:05,893 Speaker 3: such as the Titanic and the Bismarck, and then more 21 00:01:05,893 --> 00:01:09,253 Speaker 3: recently into follow some depth vehicles which head all the 22 00:01:09,253 --> 00:01:12,333 Speaker 3: way down to almost eleven thousand meters as deep as 23 00:01:12,333 --> 00:01:15,932 Speaker 3: you can possibly go. My involvement with ocean Gate was 24 00:01:15,932 --> 00:01:18,372 Speaker 3: back in their early years when they were using a 25 00:01:18,413 --> 00:01:22,333 Speaker 3: couple of classed vehicles a couple of certified vehicles to 26 00:01:22,453 --> 00:01:25,813 Speaker 3: do work in Puget Sound around Seattle, and then it 27 00:01:25,973 --> 00:01:28,572 Speaker 3: ended when they decided to go out into deep order 28 00:01:28,613 --> 00:01:30,333 Speaker 3: in an experimental craft. 29 00:01:30,613 --> 00:01:34,773 Speaker 4: Tell us what it's like to arrive down there at 30 00:01:34,813 --> 00:01:39,053 Speaker 4: the Titanic for the first time. That must be quite something. 31 00:01:39,212 --> 00:01:45,893 Speaker 3: It's absolutely it's an incredible experience. One because of the size. 32 00:01:46,613 --> 00:01:49,133 Speaker 3: You know, I think that it's not often you get 33 00:01:49,173 --> 00:01:52,893 Speaker 3: a chance, unless you're a dock worker to stand or 34 00:01:52,973 --> 00:01:55,333 Speaker 3: be located at the bow of a ship and to 35 00:01:55,373 --> 00:01:58,253 Speaker 3: look up at the immense size of it. And you know, 36 00:01:58,533 --> 00:02:01,533 Speaker 3: Titanic was over eight hundred and eighty feet long. She 37 00:02:01,773 --> 00:02:04,493 Speaker 3: was a big vessel. So the first impression is one 38 00:02:04,493 --> 00:02:07,933 Speaker 3: of size. The second is one of grace and beauty. 39 00:02:08,413 --> 00:02:12,213 Speaker 3: We simply don't build ocean liners with that sort of 40 00:02:12,373 --> 00:02:16,653 Speaker 3: design charm in them. And she's an incredibly beautiful lady, 41 00:02:16,693 --> 00:02:18,133 Speaker 3: even in her old age. 42 00:02:18,293 --> 00:02:21,013 Speaker 4: And how close can you actually get to the Titanic. 43 00:02:21,213 --> 00:02:24,692 Speaker 4: You basically can float around right on the deck, can't you. 44 00:02:24,693 --> 00:02:26,653 Speaker 3: You can? I mean, you know there are parts of 45 00:02:26,693 --> 00:02:29,973 Speaker 3: the wreck where there are debris, and you know, lifeboat 46 00:02:30,013 --> 00:02:33,373 Speaker 3: extinctions and cables and that sort of thing that you 47 00:02:33,893 --> 00:02:37,293 Speaker 3: want to maintain a respectful distance, and honestly is you know, 48 00:02:37,573 --> 00:02:40,653 Speaker 3: it's good to be sort of twenty to fifteen meters 49 00:02:40,733 --> 00:02:43,933 Speaker 3: away because then you can use the lights to illuminate 50 00:02:44,613 --> 00:02:47,452 Speaker 3: the greater scene and you get more of an appreciation 51 00:02:47,573 --> 00:02:51,253 Speaker 3: of size and shape when you're a little bit away from. 52 00:02:51,053 --> 00:02:54,293 Speaker 4: Her and you've been deeper than anyone else in the world. 53 00:02:54,493 --> 00:02:57,613 Speaker 4: What's it like eleven thousand meters down? What are you 54 00:02:57,693 --> 00:02:58,532 Speaker 4: seeing down there? 55 00:02:58,773 --> 00:03:01,613 Speaker 3: We are seeing life, believe it or not. Even at 56 00:03:01,613 --> 00:03:06,213 Speaker 3: thirty five thousand feet or ten nine hundred meters, we're 57 00:03:06,252 --> 00:03:09,533 Speaker 3: seeing life. But we are also seeing things that have 58 00:03:09,613 --> 00:03:13,053 Speaker 3: never been seen before, simply because humans haven't had the 59 00:03:13,093 --> 00:03:16,093 Speaker 3: opportunity to visit that part of our planet very often. 60 00:03:16,252 --> 00:03:19,013 Speaker 3: So we're seeing new forms of life, and we're seeing 61 00:03:19,093 --> 00:03:22,373 Speaker 3: new kinds of bathymetry, you know, which helped give us 62 00:03:22,532 --> 00:03:24,693 Speaker 3: information about how our planet was formed. 63 00:03:25,053 --> 00:03:28,733 Speaker 2: Rob you've obviously got a huge reputation for orchestrating some 64 00:03:28,773 --> 00:03:32,172 Speaker 2: of the most extraordinary adventures imaginable. How does a guy 65 00:03:32,213 --> 00:03:34,572 Speaker 2: from New Zealand come to be one of the foremost 66 00:03:34,653 --> 00:03:36,253 Speaker 2: experts in deep ocean diving. 67 00:03:36,453 --> 00:03:38,493 Speaker 3: Oh, it's one of those things, a happy a series 68 00:03:38,533 --> 00:03:41,733 Speaker 3: of happy accidents, you know, just meeting the right people 69 00:03:41,773 --> 00:03:44,013 Speaker 3: and being in the right place at the right time, 70 00:03:44,613 --> 00:03:47,013 Speaker 3: starting out in the scuba world and then into the 71 00:03:47,053 --> 00:03:50,293 Speaker 3: shallow subs, and then into the medium depth subs and 72 00:03:50,373 --> 00:03:53,253 Speaker 3: now into the extreme depth. And you know, it's a 73 00:03:53,293 --> 00:03:56,493 Speaker 3: pretty small group of people, so it doesn't take long 74 00:03:56,533 --> 00:04:00,253 Speaker 3: to establish a reputation and become someone that people look 75 00:04:00,333 --> 00:04:02,373 Speaker 3: for when they're wanting to head deep. 76 00:04:02,733 --> 00:04:04,733 Speaker 2: Where does that drive come from for you? Did you 77 00:04:05,373 --> 00:04:07,813 Speaker 2: have explore heroes when you were growing up? 78 00:04:08,453 --> 00:04:11,173 Speaker 3: I did I follow in the footsteps of Sir Edmund 79 00:04:11,213 --> 00:04:14,893 Speaker 3: Hillary and Sir Peter Blake. Yeah, you know both because 80 00:04:14,973 --> 00:04:17,773 Speaker 3: they did what they loved to do. They had a 81 00:04:17,813 --> 00:04:21,493 Speaker 3: passion and they followed it. But also once they'd achieved 82 00:04:21,533 --> 00:04:25,653 Speaker 3: their sort of operational goals or their stretch goals, they 83 00:04:25,733 --> 00:04:29,493 Speaker 3: converted their lives into giving back and into philanthropy. And 84 00:04:29,533 --> 00:04:32,213 Speaker 3: that's exactly the model I seek to follow. 85 00:04:32,653 --> 00:04:36,693 Speaker 4: You're obviously not a man who suffers from claustrophobia. 86 00:04:37,893 --> 00:04:38,413 Speaker 3: No, I'm not. 87 00:04:40,173 --> 00:04:42,813 Speaker 4: Is there fear you still have a healthy amount of 88 00:04:42,813 --> 00:04:45,693 Speaker 4: fear when you're going down to an extreme depth? 89 00:04:46,093 --> 00:04:48,933 Speaker 3: No, because not in the sub I mean, you know, 90 00:04:48,973 --> 00:04:51,973 Speaker 3: I have to qualify that by saying that, you know, 91 00:04:52,133 --> 00:04:54,693 Speaker 3: everybody suffers from fear. I mean, if you don't suffer 92 00:04:54,733 --> 00:04:58,013 Speaker 3: from some degree of fear, you're probably some sort of psychopath. 93 00:04:58,933 --> 00:05:02,773 Speaker 3: But but there's a huge Yeah, there's a huge difference 94 00:05:03,253 --> 00:05:07,013 Speaker 3: in the way that people manage fear. And you know, 95 00:05:07,573 --> 00:05:09,933 Speaker 3: people that are not not used to being in frightening 96 00:05:09,973 --> 00:05:13,413 Speaker 3: situations usually suffer from a deer response, you know, like 97 00:05:13,453 --> 00:05:16,533 Speaker 3: a deer in the headlights and they freeze. But when 98 00:05:16,573 --> 00:05:20,173 Speaker 3: you see people who are often in frightening situations, and 99 00:05:20,213 --> 00:05:24,293 Speaker 3: you could include a lot of soldiers at police, firefighters, 100 00:05:24,493 --> 00:05:28,373 Speaker 3: people that have to confront a fearful situation develop the 101 00:05:28,453 --> 00:05:31,893 Speaker 3: knack of working their way through it, not getting caught 102 00:05:31,933 --> 00:05:36,813 Speaker 3: in the headlights, but actually you know, working steadily through 103 00:05:37,453 --> 00:05:40,173 Speaker 3: a solution to get themselves out of that fix. But 104 00:05:40,253 --> 00:05:42,333 Speaker 3: I have to say that, you know, the most important 105 00:05:42,333 --> 00:05:44,813 Speaker 3: part of my job is actually avoiding the risk that 106 00:05:44,933 --> 00:05:48,413 Speaker 3: creates those fearful situations. I'm never fearful in a sub 107 00:05:48,773 --> 00:05:51,653 Speaker 3: because they have been prepared by a team of experts, 108 00:05:52,133 --> 00:05:54,653 Speaker 3: by a team of engineers, and all of the risk 109 00:05:54,773 --> 00:05:56,453 Speaker 3: is being mitigated out of them. 110 00:05:56,493 --> 00:05:58,453 Speaker 2: And we will come back to that, rob But working 111 00:05:58,453 --> 00:06:01,853 Speaker 2: with the likes of James Cameron and Victor Viskovov, did 112 00:06:01,893 --> 00:06:04,613 Speaker 2: they have a similar thirst to you? Could you see 113 00:06:04,653 --> 00:06:08,533 Speaker 2: that within those sorts of people that they weren't there 114 00:06:08,573 --> 00:06:10,973 Speaker 2: might have been a level of fear, but more excitement 115 00:06:11,173 --> 00:06:13,893 Speaker 2: and getting into the unknown and that explorer spirit. 116 00:06:14,293 --> 00:06:18,133 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and very similar in a lot of regards. 117 00:06:18,893 --> 00:06:22,093 Speaker 3: Jim is an explorer at heart, with a bit of 118 00:06:22,133 --> 00:06:25,533 Speaker 3: filmmaking on the side to pay for his habit. You know, 119 00:06:25,573 --> 00:06:28,973 Speaker 3: he's very, very accomplished obviously at making movies and he 120 00:06:29,053 --> 00:06:31,893 Speaker 3: enjoys it. But in his heart he is an explorer 121 00:06:32,453 --> 00:06:36,573 Speaker 3: and he's done a great deal for ocean exploration and 122 00:06:36,613 --> 00:06:41,413 Speaker 3: bringing the feeling of exploring the ocean into people's TV screens. 123 00:06:41,613 --> 00:06:44,973 Speaker 3: Victor is a different, similar, bit different. You know. Victor 124 00:06:45,133 --> 00:06:50,333 Speaker 3: is an adventurer. He likes to push himself and he 125 00:06:50,373 --> 00:06:53,573 Speaker 3: came into ocean exploration almost by accident because he was 126 00:06:53,613 --> 00:06:56,013 Speaker 3: looking for his next big thing. He wanted to go 127 00:06:56,053 --> 00:06:58,613 Speaker 3: to the Marianas Trench because it was the deepest point 128 00:06:58,653 --> 00:07:00,773 Speaker 3: of the world's ocean. And then he worked out that 129 00:07:00,813 --> 00:07:02,813 Speaker 3: no one had been to the deepest point of the 130 00:07:02,853 --> 00:07:05,893 Speaker 3: other four oceans, and so that's what formed the Five 131 00:07:05,973 --> 00:07:06,853 Speaker 3: Deeps expedition. 132 00:07:07,733 --> 00:07:11,133 Speaker 4: Now, speaking of of screens and TV, the ocean Gate 133 00:07:11,173 --> 00:07:14,253 Speaker 4: documentary on Netflix, you say there was no way of 134 00:07:14,373 --> 00:07:17,013 Speaker 4: knowing when Titan was going to fail, but it was 135 00:07:17,053 --> 00:07:19,893 Speaker 4: a mathematical certainty that it would fail. It walked away 136 00:07:19,893 --> 00:07:22,973 Speaker 4: from the Titan project. What were the specific red flags 137 00:07:23,013 --> 00:07:25,053 Speaker 4: you saw that made you not want to be involved 138 00:07:25,053 --> 00:07:25,773 Speaker 4: at all. 139 00:07:25,773 --> 00:07:28,573 Speaker 3: That's a good question, And you know it's interesting because 140 00:07:28,573 --> 00:07:30,693 Speaker 3: I was explained to someone the other day. You know, 141 00:07:30,933 --> 00:07:34,253 Speaker 3: the sequence of the documentary is quite right. You know, 142 00:07:34,693 --> 00:07:38,813 Speaker 3: I left ocean Gate even before they built anything. I 143 00:07:38,973 --> 00:07:42,573 Speaker 3: left when Stockton decided that he was going to build 144 00:07:42,613 --> 00:07:46,413 Speaker 3: an unclassed vehicle, and then I spent even after I'd left, 145 00:07:46,413 --> 00:07:48,573 Speaker 3: I spent two years sort of trying to turn him 146 00:07:48,573 --> 00:07:51,133 Speaker 3: around because I didn't want anyone to get hurt. The 147 00:07:51,173 --> 00:07:54,773 Speaker 3: red flags for me was the inability to listen and 148 00:07:54,813 --> 00:07:58,613 Speaker 3: the inability to consult outside of the group. So I 149 00:07:58,653 --> 00:08:02,893 Speaker 3: think a very important hallmark of leadership is being able 150 00:08:03,333 --> 00:08:07,653 Speaker 3: to solicit counterviews and then to consider them and be 151 00:08:07,773 --> 00:08:12,573 Speaker 3: prepared to change your stance or your approach based on 152 00:08:12,613 --> 00:08:16,333 Speaker 3: that feedback. And if you're not prepared to do that, 153 00:08:16,373 --> 00:08:19,213 Speaker 3: if you're not even prepared to hear account of you, 154 00:08:20,173 --> 00:08:24,373 Speaker 3: then you're already beginning to set yourself up for a failure. 155 00:08:24,933 --> 00:08:27,013 Speaker 3: So that was the first red flag. The second red 156 00:08:27,013 --> 00:08:30,733 Speaker 3: flag was the fired Dave Lockrichs, chief pilot, for blowing 157 00:08:30,733 --> 00:08:34,173 Speaker 3: the whissaw on several safety concerns. And that's a big 158 00:08:34,173 --> 00:08:36,933 Speaker 3: red flag. I mean, when you not only are not 159 00:08:37,013 --> 00:08:40,133 Speaker 3: prepared to listen to a core member of your staff 160 00:08:40,372 --> 00:08:43,133 Speaker 3: point out in a very professional manner where all of 161 00:08:43,173 --> 00:08:45,613 Speaker 3: the faults are, but then you go on to fire 162 00:08:45,693 --> 00:08:48,373 Speaker 3: that person and then you sue them in court to 163 00:08:48,453 --> 00:08:51,213 Speaker 3: keep them quiet. That's a real problem. 164 00:08:51,333 --> 00:08:53,693 Speaker 4: We're talking to the New Zealand deep sea explorer and 165 00:08:53,813 --> 00:08:59,173 Speaker 4: expert Rob McCallum now speaking of Stockton Rush, who's the CEO. 166 00:09:00,132 --> 00:09:03,292 Speaker 4: Some people stood up, but some people didn't. He seems 167 00:09:03,293 --> 00:09:05,973 Speaker 4: to have created an almost cult like following at Ocean 168 00:09:06,053 --> 00:09:10,532 Speaker 4: Gate that may have led to the disaster. That suggests 169 00:09:10,732 --> 00:09:13,252 Speaker 4: charisma and your experience. What kind of person was stocked 170 00:09:13,333 --> 00:09:15,492 Speaker 4: and rush was? Was he charismatic? Did did he draw 171 00:09:15,533 --> 00:09:16,132 Speaker 4: you in it all? 172 00:09:18,413 --> 00:09:20,653 Speaker 3: He is a very He was a very charming guy, 173 00:09:20,973 --> 00:09:24,852 Speaker 3: very charismatic. But it didn't take very long to work 174 00:09:24,892 --> 00:09:28,612 Speaker 3: out that it was his way or the highway. You know. 175 00:09:28,813 --> 00:09:36,213 Speaker 3: He was very tenacious, very single minded that his way 176 00:09:36,372 --> 00:09:40,573 Speaker 3: was right, and he just wouldn't entertain anything anything different, 177 00:09:40,933 --> 00:09:43,693 Speaker 3: and so it didn't. It doesn't take long to see 178 00:09:43,773 --> 00:09:44,693 Speaker 3: through people like that. 179 00:09:45,333 --> 00:09:49,292 Speaker 4: The Titans carbon fiber hull has been called a death 180 00:09:49,372 --> 00:09:53,453 Speaker 4: trap before the tragic events that led to its implosion. 181 00:09:53,612 --> 00:09:56,772 Speaker 4: Can you please explain in playing language why carbon fiber 182 00:09:56,852 --> 00:10:00,533 Speaker 4: behaves so differently under a deep ocean pressure compared with 183 00:10:00,693 --> 00:10:02,333 Speaker 4: say steel or titanium. 184 00:10:02,453 --> 00:10:07,173 Speaker 3: Steel and titanium are obviously metals that are of a 185 00:10:07,293 --> 00:10:11,732 Speaker 3: known composition, and they are well understood by engineers. You 186 00:10:11,852 --> 00:10:15,653 Speaker 3: can give the engineer the type of material that you're 187 00:10:16,132 --> 00:10:18,453 Speaker 3: wanting to use, what sort of pressure it's going to 188 00:10:18,453 --> 00:10:21,413 Speaker 3: be put under, what sort of gauge or thickness the 189 00:10:21,492 --> 00:10:24,893 Speaker 3: vehicle will be constructed to, and they'll be able to 190 00:10:25,132 --> 00:10:28,652 Speaker 3: calculate for you what the safe dive depth of that 191 00:10:28,773 --> 00:10:33,013 Speaker 3: submersible would be so for instance, when we built limiting factor, 192 00:10:33,132 --> 00:10:37,173 Speaker 3: which is the submersible, we used to go to foloation 193 00:10:37,372 --> 00:10:41,773 Speaker 3: depth almost eleven thousand meters. We were able to calculate 194 00:10:42,012 --> 00:10:45,132 Speaker 3: even before she made it off the drawing board exactly 195 00:10:45,213 --> 00:10:48,252 Speaker 3: how much pressure that hull would be able to sustain, 196 00:10:48,492 --> 00:10:50,732 Speaker 3: so that when we got to the test facility and 197 00:10:50,773 --> 00:10:54,813 Speaker 3: we tested it to one point two five times that pressure, 198 00:10:55,093 --> 00:10:58,492 Speaker 3: she behaved exactly as we'd calculated out back on the 199 00:10:58,573 --> 00:11:01,813 Speaker 3: drawing board. Can't do that with carbon fiber, and so 200 00:11:02,653 --> 00:11:05,893 Speaker 3: it's not that carbon fiber is weaker, it's that carbon 201 00:11:05,973 --> 00:11:10,373 Speaker 3: fiber is not predictable, right, And the reason for that 202 00:11:10,573 --> 00:11:13,973 Speaker 3: is that carbon fiber is a composite material. It's made 203 00:11:14,053 --> 00:11:20,252 Speaker 3: up of carbon fiber, which is essentially string that's held 204 00:11:20,492 --> 00:11:24,253 Speaker 3: in place by a resin or a glue. And so 205 00:11:24,333 --> 00:11:29,573 Speaker 3: when you're making a carbon fiber submersible, you are relying 206 00:11:29,653 --> 00:11:32,533 Speaker 3: on the quality of the carbon fiber, the quality of 207 00:11:32,573 --> 00:11:35,813 Speaker 3: the resin the way that the application is made on 208 00:11:35,892 --> 00:11:39,253 Speaker 3: the day, the humidity, the temperature, how fast it's allowed 209 00:11:39,293 --> 00:11:41,492 Speaker 3: to cool, and that sort of thing, and it's not 210 00:11:41,653 --> 00:11:44,653 Speaker 3: going to be consistent material. It's going to have a 211 00:11:44,653 --> 00:11:47,172 Speaker 3: lot of variation in it, and because of that, it's 212 00:11:47,173 --> 00:11:49,653 Speaker 3: impossible to say where it's when it's going to break. 213 00:11:49,813 --> 00:11:53,172 Speaker 2: When you watch the documentary, Rob, were you alarmed at 214 00:11:53,293 --> 00:11:56,773 Speaker 2: some of the evidence that was presented in that documentary. 215 00:11:56,773 --> 00:11:59,773 Speaker 2: We talk about the carbon fiber hull and the audible 216 00:11:59,852 --> 00:12:02,213 Speaker 2: popping that was being measured as it was going down 217 00:12:02,252 --> 00:12:05,333 Speaker 2: into the ocean, and stocked and rush cooling, that seasoning 218 00:12:05,453 --> 00:12:07,733 Speaker 2: with no scientific grigor behind that was they some of 219 00:12:07,732 --> 00:12:10,052 Speaker 2: the elements you didn't know that were quite alarming when 220 00:12:10,053 --> 00:12:12,093 Speaker 2: you watch the documentary. 221 00:12:12,773 --> 00:12:15,413 Speaker 3: You know, I appear in the documentary. I filmed my 222 00:12:15,492 --> 00:12:18,213 Speaker 3: segment back in December, but none of us that appeared 223 00:12:18,252 --> 00:12:22,013 Speaker 3: in the documentary actually knew all of the evidence that 224 00:12:22,132 --> 00:12:25,012 Speaker 3: was presented. We saw it for the first time, you know, 225 00:12:25,333 --> 00:12:29,612 Speaker 3: last week, and it was absolutely terrifying. I mean, that 226 00:12:29,813 --> 00:12:35,732 Speaker 3: sound is the most frightening sound I've ever heard in 227 00:12:35,773 --> 00:12:40,252 Speaker 3: the ocean, and I cannot fathom how anybody got into 228 00:12:40,252 --> 00:12:44,333 Speaker 3: that vehicle twice. I mean I was literally sitting beside 229 00:12:44,413 --> 00:12:47,892 Speaker 3: Dave Lockritch in the theater when we watched the premiere, 230 00:12:48,093 --> 00:12:50,532 Speaker 3: and when I heard that sound, I grabbed him by 231 00:12:50,533 --> 00:12:53,292 Speaker 3: the knee and I said, how the hell did they do? That. 232 00:12:53,973 --> 00:12:57,012 Speaker 3: I don't understand how they kept doing that again and 233 00:12:57,053 --> 00:13:00,933 Speaker 3: again and again. And I don't say that melodramatically, but 234 00:13:01,012 --> 00:13:05,693 Speaker 3: they tested a half sized model and it imploded early. 235 00:13:05,813 --> 00:13:09,053 Speaker 3: Then they built another model and imploded even earlier. And 236 00:13:09,093 --> 00:13:12,372 Speaker 3: then they built a hull and they essentially destroyed it 237 00:13:12,372 --> 00:13:15,013 Speaker 3: to the point where it would have imploded if they'd 238 00:13:15,012 --> 00:13:18,773 Speaker 3: done another dive, and then they did the last hull. 239 00:13:19,653 --> 00:13:22,013 Speaker 3: I just don't know how they ignored all the warning 240 00:13:22,053 --> 00:13:23,013 Speaker 3: signs along the way. 241 00:13:23,173 --> 00:13:25,573 Speaker 4: We're talking to the New Zealand deep sea explorer and 242 00:13:25,693 --> 00:13:29,213 Speaker 4: expert Rob McCallum. Obviously there was a terrible tragedy and 243 00:13:29,533 --> 00:13:32,893 Speaker 4: horrible that people lost their lives, but there must be 244 00:13:33,012 --> 00:13:36,613 Speaker 4: some small satisfaction wouldn't be the word, but for people 245 00:13:36,653 --> 00:13:40,292 Speaker 4: like Dave that were so mistreated for the true story 246 00:13:40,413 --> 00:13:43,372 Speaker 4: to be out now for the world to see, especially 247 00:13:43,372 --> 00:13:46,573 Speaker 4: considering he was taken to court for trying to call 248 00:13:46,612 --> 00:13:47,413 Speaker 4: out the situation. 249 00:13:48,132 --> 00:13:51,293 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean after the premiere, we were interviewed about 250 00:13:51,413 --> 00:13:54,012 Speaker 3: you know, do you feel vindicated, and it's like, you know, honestly, 251 00:13:54,053 --> 00:13:58,333 Speaker 3: we feel sick. Yeah, because we tried so very hard, 252 00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:01,213 Speaker 3: him as inside man, as me and outside man to 253 00:14:01,293 --> 00:14:04,773 Speaker 3: try and get Stockton to see the light and stop 254 00:14:04,813 --> 00:14:08,012 Speaker 3: what he was doing. And we tried very hard and failed, 255 00:14:08,173 --> 00:14:11,333 Speaker 3: and five people lost their lives, and you know, one 256 00:14:11,453 --> 00:14:14,333 Speaker 3: was Stockton, and you know it's kind of he had 257 00:14:14,372 --> 00:14:17,172 Speaker 3: that coming to him. He was determined to follow that path. 258 00:14:17,372 --> 00:14:20,213 Speaker 3: Two others were warned and knew the risks and took 259 00:14:20,253 --> 00:14:23,653 Speaker 3: their chances, and the other two were complete innocence. Yeah, 260 00:14:23,693 --> 00:14:26,693 Speaker 3: and it's them that I feel the most sorrow for. 261 00:14:26,933 --> 00:14:31,653 Speaker 4: I mean, they could have rightly expected what was essentially 262 00:14:31,653 --> 00:14:34,613 Speaker 4: a tourism expedition, but that they could have expected a 263 00:14:34,653 --> 00:14:37,253 Speaker 4: level of safety in there. Do you believe that you 264 00:14:37,293 --> 00:14:40,172 Speaker 4: did everything that you that you could is there? Do 265 00:14:40,253 --> 00:14:42,733 Speaker 4: you feel that there was nothing more you could do 266 00:14:42,813 --> 00:14:43,573 Speaker 4: to stop them? 267 00:14:44,173 --> 00:14:46,013 Speaker 3: No? I don't. I mean, I don't think there was 268 00:14:46,053 --> 00:14:50,573 Speaker 3: anything more because we you know, initially on the formal 269 00:14:50,693 --> 00:14:55,733 Speaker 3: side of things, we got that information to OSHA, you know, 270 00:14:55,773 --> 00:14:59,013 Speaker 3: the Occupational Safety and Health folks, and also to the 271 00:14:59,053 --> 00:15:02,653 Speaker 3: Coast Guard. And those are the two entities, one state 272 00:15:02,733 --> 00:15:05,613 Speaker 3: and one federal, that had the authority to actually put 273 00:15:05,613 --> 00:15:07,773 Speaker 3: a stop to it, and they didn't. But they have 274 00:15:07,893 --> 00:15:12,453 Speaker 3: the league authority. Neither Dave nor I have any authority 275 00:15:12,493 --> 00:15:15,253 Speaker 3: at all. So then we switched to the informal approach, 276 00:15:15,293 --> 00:15:18,733 Speaker 3: and I spent the last three years sort of sabotage 277 00:15:18,773 --> 00:15:22,053 Speaker 3: in the operation by making it clear that anybody that 278 00:15:22,253 --> 00:15:25,133 Speaker 3: was wanting to go in Titan should give me a 279 00:15:25,173 --> 00:15:27,653 Speaker 3: call first. And I think there's something like three dozen 280 00:15:27,733 --> 00:15:30,093 Speaker 3: people that we talked out of going in the vehicle, 281 00:15:30,813 --> 00:15:34,053 Speaker 3: many of whom are now in touch and extremely grateful. 282 00:15:34,253 --> 00:15:37,653 Speaker 3: But the other two, the most important, were the investors 283 00:15:37,693 --> 00:15:40,333 Speaker 3: who called and said is this a good investment and 284 00:15:40,493 --> 00:15:42,973 Speaker 3: able to say no, and here is why. And I 285 00:15:43,013 --> 00:15:47,533 Speaker 3: think in some ways that sped up the demise of Oceangate. 286 00:15:47,053 --> 00:15:52,493 Speaker 2: The mentality of Stockton Rush rob and clearly throughout the documentary, yourself, David, 287 00:15:52,613 --> 00:15:56,213 Speaker 2: many many others tried to warn him on the dangers, 288 00:15:56,213 --> 00:15:59,493 Speaker 2: the critical dangers, and they are either pushed aside or silenced. 289 00:16:00,373 --> 00:16:02,813 Speaker 2: How do you deal with someone with that mentality? I mean, 290 00:16:02,893 --> 00:16:05,413 Speaker 2: is there anything that you can do when someone is 291 00:16:05,453 --> 00:16:08,133 Speaker 2: that driven and that cavalier, in that much of a maverick. 292 00:16:09,453 --> 00:16:12,293 Speaker 3: It is tough, and it does depend on where you 293 00:16:12,373 --> 00:16:15,413 Speaker 3: are in the world. You know, there's a difference between 294 00:16:15,893 --> 00:16:20,933 Speaker 3: the US where I am now and New Zealand. You know, 295 00:16:21,053 --> 00:16:25,412 Speaker 3: Stockton was Stockton, and you know, we're all very clear 296 00:16:25,493 --> 00:16:28,093 Speaker 3: now about how far he was prepared to go. But 297 00:16:28,133 --> 00:16:31,293 Speaker 3: the Stocktons of the world don't act in isolation. They 298 00:16:31,613 --> 00:16:36,333 Speaker 3: are enabled. They are enabled by in this case, by 299 00:16:36,493 --> 00:16:40,373 Speaker 3: engineers who should have known better. I mean, in the 300 00:16:40,413 --> 00:16:45,172 Speaker 3: documentary you hear Tony Nissen say I was the chief engineer. 301 00:16:45,253 --> 00:16:48,693 Speaker 3: I assembled the vehicle, I never left. I was fired 302 00:16:48,733 --> 00:16:51,853 Speaker 3: when it didn't work properly. Would you have gotten the sub? Oh? 303 00:16:51,893 --> 00:16:56,573 Speaker 3: Absolutely not. What sort of an engineer would build something 304 00:16:56,613 --> 00:17:00,973 Speaker 3: that they themselves wouldn't go into. So there's the engineers, 305 00:17:01,053 --> 00:17:04,973 Speaker 3: there's the lawyers, there's the marketeers, there's the board, there's 306 00:17:05,013 --> 00:17:08,773 Speaker 3: the senior management. Anybody that remained in Ocean Gay after 307 00:17:08,853 --> 00:17:12,853 Speaker 3: Lockridge was very publicly fired, has some explaining to do. 308 00:17:13,773 --> 00:17:17,053 Speaker 3: Anybody that was in the company and actually aiding and 309 00:17:17,093 --> 00:17:20,893 Speaker 3: a betting people getting into the sub after what they 310 00:17:20,973 --> 00:17:25,093 Speaker 3: call dive eighty, those people are, you know, I think, 311 00:17:25,173 --> 00:17:27,813 Speaker 3: are going to go for the high jump because they 312 00:17:27,853 --> 00:17:31,333 Speaker 3: knew that the sub was badly damaged. 313 00:17:32,733 --> 00:17:37,093 Speaker 4: Now you have founded a company that operates certified submersibles 314 00:17:37,093 --> 00:17:40,733 Speaker 4: with a perfect safety record. What are the critical checkpoints 315 00:17:40,733 --> 00:17:43,933 Speaker 4: from designed to dive that a you know, I guess 316 00:17:43,973 --> 00:17:48,413 Speaker 4: a reputable operator would would follow, and that ocean gate ignored. 317 00:17:48,813 --> 00:17:52,333 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we call the process classing or 318 00:17:52,373 --> 00:17:55,293 Speaker 3: getting classed, and it's just a fancy word in the 319 00:17:55,333 --> 00:17:58,573 Speaker 3: marine world that means certified. And so the process of 320 00:17:58,653 --> 00:18:02,013 Speaker 3: classing a submersible or getting it certified by an independent 321 00:18:02,173 --> 00:18:05,813 Speaker 3: agency of which there are sticks in the world, starts 322 00:18:05,933 --> 00:18:08,893 Speaker 3: right back at the drawing board where you design the 323 00:18:08,933 --> 00:18:12,693 Speaker 3: shape of the submersible and you work out the pressure 324 00:18:12,773 --> 00:18:15,173 Speaker 3: that it's going to be under, so that gives you 325 00:18:16,213 --> 00:18:19,373 Speaker 3: what sort of thickness, what sort of strength that it 326 00:18:19,453 --> 00:18:22,333 Speaker 3: needs to have. All those calculations are submitted to a 327 00:18:22,373 --> 00:18:25,733 Speaker 3: class society who sign off on your figures, and then 328 00:18:25,813 --> 00:18:28,293 Speaker 3: they sign off on all the materials that you want 329 00:18:28,333 --> 00:18:30,973 Speaker 3: to use. And in our case, we were building a 330 00:18:30,973 --> 00:18:34,733 Speaker 3: submersible out of titanium that was going to full ocean depth. 331 00:18:35,493 --> 00:18:39,373 Speaker 3: So they actually were at the factory where the material 332 00:18:39,573 --> 00:18:42,813 Speaker 3: was forged and they put their stamp on it to 333 00:18:42,813 --> 00:18:45,533 Speaker 3: say this is the bona fide material that we're going 334 00:18:45,533 --> 00:18:49,773 Speaker 3: to now follow all the way through the manufacturing process. 335 00:18:50,933 --> 00:18:53,773 Speaker 3: They sign off on every step of the manufacturing process. 336 00:18:53,853 --> 00:18:57,973 Speaker 3: They sign off on harbor trials, sea trials, and then 337 00:18:58,053 --> 00:19:01,093 Speaker 3: finally they take a surveyor from the class Society all 338 00:19:01,133 --> 00:19:03,613 Speaker 3: the way down to full ocean depth, and while he's 339 00:19:03,653 --> 00:19:06,893 Speaker 3: at full ocean depth, he signs the papers to give 340 00:19:06,933 --> 00:19:10,973 Speaker 3: the Sabbats classification. So the process is right from the 341 00:19:11,053 --> 00:19:14,533 Speaker 3: drawing board all the way to the first proper dive. 342 00:19:15,413 --> 00:19:18,093 Speaker 3: And it's not a process that you can interrupt halfway 343 00:19:18,133 --> 00:19:21,133 Speaker 3: through and suddenly decide that you're going to get classed. 344 00:19:21,453 --> 00:19:23,493 Speaker 3: You have to do that from the very first step. 345 00:19:24,293 --> 00:19:26,853 Speaker 4: We're talking to New Zealand deep sea explorer and expert 346 00:19:26,933 --> 00:19:29,853 Speaker 4: Rob McCallum, who was featured on the Netflix Titan ocean 347 00:19:29,853 --> 00:19:33,173 Speaker 4: Gate disaster documentary. Now this is probably a difficult question 348 00:19:33,533 --> 00:19:35,813 Speaker 4: to answer, but what were your first thoughts when you 349 00:19:35,893 --> 00:19:38,493 Speaker 4: heard that the ocean Gate disaster had taken place. 350 00:19:39,013 --> 00:19:43,133 Speaker 3: Oh, I was running an expedition off about one hundred 351 00:19:43,333 --> 00:19:47,053 Speaker 3: miles north of Papua New Guinea. So I was at 352 00:19:47,093 --> 00:19:48,733 Speaker 3: sea and it was like three or four o'clock in 353 00:19:48,813 --> 00:19:52,333 Speaker 3: the morning and I got a call from someone who said, 354 00:19:52,373 --> 00:19:55,533 Speaker 3: you know, the subs imploded. We've just heard the signature. 355 00:19:55,653 --> 00:19:58,453 Speaker 3: So I knew straight away that it imploded, and I 356 00:19:58,533 --> 00:20:01,253 Speaker 3: sort of was confused over the following three or four 357 00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:04,413 Speaker 3: days because there was the oxygen countdown and you know, 358 00:20:04,493 --> 00:20:07,213 Speaker 3: the race against time, and it's like these guys died 359 00:20:07,253 --> 00:20:10,413 Speaker 3: in a blink. I mean, what are we doing with 360 00:20:10,533 --> 00:20:13,333 Speaker 3: the search and rescue exercise? So there was a lot 361 00:20:13,373 --> 00:20:17,013 Speaker 3: of confusion in those first few days. I was not 362 00:20:17,493 --> 00:20:19,973 Speaker 3: surprised from a technical point of view. Obviously we'd been 363 00:20:20,053 --> 00:20:25,453 Speaker 3: expecting it. Until I saw the documentary last week. I 364 00:20:25,493 --> 00:20:28,213 Speaker 3: had no idea how bad things it actually got with 365 00:20:28,293 --> 00:20:32,973 Speaker 3: an ocean Gate. I will never understand how Stockton actually 366 00:20:33,013 --> 00:20:36,333 Speaker 3: got that first hull through sea trials. I mean, I 367 00:20:36,453 --> 00:20:39,453 Speaker 3: honestly most of my colleagues expected that the sub would 368 00:20:39,453 --> 00:20:42,573 Speaker 3: fail in the first sea trial and that would be 369 00:20:42,573 --> 00:20:45,293 Speaker 3: the end of the sub and Stockton and ocean Gate. 370 00:20:45,453 --> 00:20:48,213 Speaker 3: So we were always very confused as how they managed 371 00:20:48,253 --> 00:20:49,933 Speaker 3: to get through those first few dives. 372 00:20:50,453 --> 00:20:53,373 Speaker 4: Now, and the docu stated that Stockton saw an opportunity 373 00:20:53,413 --> 00:20:57,053 Speaker 4: to restart tourists visits to Titanic or start them stocked, 374 00:20:57,093 --> 00:20:59,133 Speaker 4: and fully believed in what he was doing that it 375 00:20:59,133 --> 00:21:02,493 Speaker 4: would work. You've been deeper than anyone in various vessels. 376 00:21:02,493 --> 00:21:05,293 Speaker 4: Do you think deep sea tourism like ocean Gate was 377 00:21:05,333 --> 00:21:07,532 Speaker 4: trying to get going as possible or is it just 378 00:21:07,573 --> 00:21:08,253 Speaker 4: too dangerous. 379 00:21:08,653 --> 00:21:10,933 Speaker 3: No, it's absolutely possible. I mean, if you look at 380 00:21:10,973 --> 00:21:14,213 Speaker 3: the rest of the sub industry over the last fifty years, 381 00:21:14,293 --> 00:21:17,573 Speaker 3: there's been tens of millions of people that have been 382 00:21:17,613 --> 00:21:19,733 Speaker 3: for a dive and a sub and there's never been 383 00:21:19,893 --> 00:21:24,293 Speaker 3: an incident. An ocean Gate was outside of the industry, 384 00:21:24,413 --> 00:21:28,533 Speaker 3: absolutely refused any advice from the industry, went out of 385 00:21:28,573 --> 00:21:30,853 Speaker 3: their way to work around all the rules that the 386 00:21:30,933 --> 00:21:36,693 Speaker 3: industry follows, and they paid a terrible, terrible price. But 387 00:21:36,973 --> 00:21:39,533 Speaker 3: my sort of most ambitious dive, if you like, has 388 00:21:39,573 --> 00:21:42,013 Speaker 3: been in too challenge a deep in the Marianna's trench. 389 00:21:42,133 --> 00:21:45,213 Speaker 3: But my most rewarding dive was in a tourist sub 390 00:21:45,813 --> 00:21:49,213 Speaker 3: in Hawaii. The people in front of me were from Kansas, 391 00:21:49,253 --> 00:21:53,133 Speaker 3: the people behind me were from Oklahoma. They'd never seen 392 00:21:53,173 --> 00:21:56,613 Speaker 3: the ocean before, they'd never been on the ocean before, 393 00:21:56,773 --> 00:22:00,253 Speaker 3: they most certainly had never been underneath it. And to 394 00:22:00,373 --> 00:22:04,973 Speaker 3: hear their commentary and to hear their worldview open up 395 00:22:04,973 --> 00:22:09,373 Speaker 3: in real time was just amazing. And I certainly hope 396 00:22:09,373 --> 00:22:12,133 Speaker 3: that tens of millions of more people get that opportunity. 397 00:22:12,613 --> 00:22:16,173 Speaker 2: I'm getting goosebumps is here and you talk about that, Rob, Yeah, 398 00:22:16,213 --> 00:22:20,533 Speaker 2: absolutely incredible to have that opportunity. Final question from me, Rob, 399 00:22:20,573 --> 00:22:23,373 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, you were sitting by David Lockridge at 400 00:22:23,413 --> 00:22:25,693 Speaker 2: the premiere. How's David doing now? 401 00:22:26,213 --> 00:22:29,973 Speaker 3: You know, he's good, I mean, you know, good compared 402 00:22:30,013 --> 00:22:32,292 Speaker 3: to where he was. I mean, he used to really 403 00:22:32,373 --> 00:22:36,493 Speaker 3: swing from sort of survivors guilt through to blind rage, 404 00:22:37,493 --> 00:22:40,373 Speaker 3: but at that's sort of leveled to the point where 405 00:22:40,413 --> 00:22:44,413 Speaker 3: now that it's coming out, the documentaries are out, but 406 00:22:44,453 --> 00:22:48,813 Speaker 3: the formal investigation report will be out probably this month, 407 00:22:49,773 --> 00:22:52,933 Speaker 3: and that'll take a little while for people to digest. 408 00:22:53,653 --> 00:22:57,373 Speaker 3: But obviously the federal agencies that are involved with the 409 00:22:57,373 --> 00:23:00,133 Speaker 3: prosecutions have already been in touch over the last couple 410 00:23:00,133 --> 00:23:03,453 Speaker 3: of years, and then I think you'll see justice being 411 00:23:03,493 --> 00:23:06,773 Speaker 3: done and that'll be the final chapter in the ocean 412 00:23:06,773 --> 00:23:07,733 Speaker 3: Gate story. 413 00:23:08,413 --> 00:23:11,253 Speaker 4: Rub After decades of pushing underwater boundaries, are you still 414 00:23:11,293 --> 00:23:14,173 Speaker 4: passionate about the deepotion. What are your thoughts about the 415 00:23:14,173 --> 00:23:17,533 Speaker 4: balance of ambition to see and do great things and 416 00:23:17,573 --> 00:23:20,893 Speaker 4: safety and has this accident tainted at all your feelings 417 00:23:20,933 --> 00:23:21,973 Speaker 4: towards the industry. 418 00:23:22,173 --> 00:23:25,853 Speaker 3: I mean, we run an expedition company, you know, We've 419 00:23:25,973 --> 00:23:31,093 Speaker 3: completed over eighteen hundred expeditions, all of them safe and successful. 420 00:23:32,173 --> 00:23:34,573 Speaker 3: You know, I don't introduce myself as an explorer because 421 00:23:34,613 --> 00:23:37,333 Speaker 3: people expect someone taller wearing a pith helmet with a 422 00:23:37,373 --> 00:23:40,453 Speaker 3: big gun for tigers or something. But you know, we're 423 00:23:40,453 --> 00:23:43,013 Speaker 3: in the we're in the business of full time exploration, 424 00:23:43,293 --> 00:23:46,093 Speaker 3: and you know that comes with an image, but the 425 00:23:46,173 --> 00:23:50,373 Speaker 3: reality is that we spend most of our time identifying 426 00:23:50,493 --> 00:23:55,293 Speaker 3: risks and mitigating risks before we even leave home, because 427 00:23:55,333 --> 00:23:57,653 Speaker 3: it doesn't count as a world first or a world 428 00:23:57,653 --> 00:24:00,893 Speaker 3: record unless everybody makes it back alive. So we're not 429 00:24:01,253 --> 00:24:03,933 Speaker 3: you know, we are explorers, we are expeditioners, but we 430 00:24:04,053 --> 00:24:07,773 Speaker 3: are not really sort of extreme adventure types who are 431 00:24:07,773 --> 00:24:10,893 Speaker 3: prepared to everything on the line. And I think that 432 00:24:10,893 --> 00:24:14,493 Speaker 3: that will continue because the ocean is it covers seventy 433 00:24:14,533 --> 00:24:19,093 Speaker 3: one percent of our planet, and there are answers in 434 00:24:19,133 --> 00:24:21,733 Speaker 3: the ocean that will help us with some of the 435 00:24:21,813 --> 00:24:25,373 Speaker 3: challenges that we have as a species in the future. 436 00:24:26,013 --> 00:24:28,573 Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for talking to us, Rob. 437 00:24:28,773 --> 00:24:31,973 Speaker 4: You know, you're a great New Zealand. It was inspirational 438 00:24:31,973 --> 00:24:34,093 Speaker 4: seeing you on the dock, and it's inspirational reading about 439 00:24:34,093 --> 00:24:36,493 Speaker 4: everything and you've done, and seeing what you've done so 440 00:24:37,053 --> 00:24:39,013 Speaker 4: absolute honor and a privilege to talk to you today. 441 00:24:39,013 --> 00:24:39,733 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 442 00:24:40,373 --> 00:24:43,013 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks, ed B. Listen live on 443 00:24:43,093 --> 00:24:46,052 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 444 00:24:46,093 --> 00:24:48,693 Speaker 1: you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.