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Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. US

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Speaker 1: politics is in a free fall after the attempted assassination

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Speaker 1: of former President Donald Trump. The shooting killed a spectator

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Speaker 1: and injured to others, while the Secret Service fatally shot

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Speaker 1: the gunman, a twenty year old man from Pennsylvania, where

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Speaker 1: the rally was being held. The shocking incident comes at

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Speaker 1: a time when the United States is already polarized politically,

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Speaker 1: smack bang in the middle of the twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: election race. The Republican National Convention is still going ahead

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Speaker 1: this week, and pundits are already predicting that this event

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Speaker 1: could have a major impact on the twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: presidential election. Today on the Front Page, we speak to

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Speaker 1: University of Wyke at the International law professor Al Gillespie

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Speaker 1: on what's next and how this event could change the

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Speaker 1: US political landscape. But first we'll get the latest from

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Speaker 1: CBS News campaign reporter Jake Rosen, who was at the

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania rally when the shots rang out. Jake, you were

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Speaker 1: covering Saturday's Trump rally and Butler Pennsylvania. What was it

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Speaker 1: like being there on the ground.

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Speaker 2: You know, I do these often.

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Speaker 3: It's part of my job at CBS to go wherever

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Speaker 3: the former president is. I'm here in Milwaukee now. He

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Speaker 3: just landed a couple hours ago, and you're only one

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Speaker 3: hundred feet from him. The campaign loves to make sure

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Speaker 3: that you have a good shot of you know, when

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Speaker 3: he's speaking and you're doing live shots. We thought yesterday

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Speaker 3: was potentially going to be a presidential announcement, and so

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Speaker 3: you know, there was an kind of an environment of

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Speaker 3: excitement by its supporters. Everyone I spoke to there thought

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Speaker 3: maybe it could have come yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Obviously that didn't happen.

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Speaker 3: But you know, you go through layers of security when

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Speaker 3: you're dealing with Trump rallies and Biden events and many

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Speaker 3: events with US officials, high ranking YOU officials, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm certainly still in shock. I know my coworkers who

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Speaker 3: were there definitely are. It's just not something that you

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Speaker 3: expect to ever see happened in your lifetime, let alone

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Speaker 3: when you're there physically on the job.

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Speaker 1: What was it like when the shots rang out?

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Speaker 3: You know, I've said this to a couple of people,

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Speaker 3: but coming off of our July fourth holiday where people

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Speaker 3: launch fireworks off. It sounded like someone maybe brought some

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Speaker 3: in and lit them off. It sounded like maybe someone

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Speaker 3: nearby the rally site set off some fireworks. You know,

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Speaker 3: here in America we love an explosion or two. And

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Speaker 3: even in my neighborhood to Washington, DC. And after the

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Speaker 3: assassination in attempt last night, people in the Butler, Pennsylvania

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Speaker 3: area were still lighting off fireworks.

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Speaker 2: But we heard top pop pop.

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Speaker 4: If you want to really see something, that said, take

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Speaker 4: a look at what happened.

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Speaker 3: Over from turned and grabbed his ear and one of

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Speaker 3: the bullets hit a hydraulic lift that holds the speakers

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Speaker 3: up when Trump speaks, holds a you know, massive set

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Speaker 3: of speakers. And I heard a hiss and saw some

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Speaker 3: smoke come from there. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: we look back at Trump. The crowd is shrieking. There

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Speaker 3: the sound of women and children yelling and calling for help.

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Speaker 2: I'll never forget it.

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Speaker 3: We saw, you know, a swat team come right up

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Speaker 3: on stage with Secret Service and protect Trump.

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Speaker 2: But you can hear it all, you know.

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Speaker 3: I was just watching some of the video from yesterday

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Speaker 3: for the first time, and it took the crowd by surprise.

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Speaker 3: It certainly took all of us by surprise.

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Speaker 1: And you would have spoken to some attendees there, Hey

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Speaker 1: were they shocked?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I spoke to the people who refused to leave because

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Speaker 3: they didn't know what to do. I think part of

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Speaker 3: the struggle in that situation as a reporter is the

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Speaker 3: first thing I wanted to do is call my parents.

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Speaker 2: And let them know I'm okay.

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Speaker 3: There wasn't enough self service there to really do that,

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Speaker 3: so I just went around with my cell phone and

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Speaker 3: went up the people who were still leaning up against

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Speaker 3: the press area of railings and hanging out there. We

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Speaker 3: were making sure that people were okay. An elderly woman

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Speaker 3: handed me a chair and asked me to just get

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Speaker 3: it out of the way as she was trying to

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Speaker 3: get her family through. And I talked to a doctor

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Speaker 3: yesterday who was off duty, an emergency room physician who

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Speaker 3: tried to save.

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Speaker 2: The life of the man who was killed.

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Speaker 3: He did CPR on the man and tried to save

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Speaker 3: his life in the stands before the medical officials got there.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the man had blood all over his shirt.

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Speaker 3: He was shaken, his partner was shaken, and it's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's just a scene that's unfortunately become all too real

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Speaker 3: in America and now stretched into American politics.

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Speaker 2: I heard the shots.

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Speaker 4: I thought it was far crackers to begin with. Somebody

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Speaker 4: over there with screaming he's been shot, he's been shot.

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Speaker 4: So I made my way over. I said, I'm in

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Speaker 4: a merchant department, physician, let me help you. The guy

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Speaker 4: had spun around, was jammed between the benches. He had

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Speaker 4: a headshot here, there's lots of blood and he had

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Speaker 4: brain matter there. So I got him s genitor CPR

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Speaker 4: fIF chest compressions as well as a brief point.

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Speaker 1: I guess from a New Zealand's perspective, it's astonishing that

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Speaker 1: someone can get so close to a former president with

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Speaker 1: a firearm. I'm not sure if you know our laws here,

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Speaker 1: but guns aren't as prevalent, I guess as they are

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Speaker 1: in America. Is that the kind of feeling there at

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Speaker 1: the moment, because from the outside looking in, the fact

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Speaker 1: that people can carry around guns in the US is

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Speaker 1: just astonishing.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you go to these rallies, and I

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Speaker 3: only speak of this, and you know in the context

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Speaker 3: of what you have to go through, but you go

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Speaker 3: through bomb dogs.

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Speaker 2: They smell your bags.

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Speaker 3: Like I have to go with a camera bag and

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Speaker 3: a tripod and backpacks and stuff. When I go, you

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Speaker 3: go through metal detectors. Security agents open your bag and

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Speaker 3: check through them. So I think you're operating under the

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Speaker 3: presumption that you're safe, right, And I think in this

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Speaker 3: case what seems to have happened is either short staffing

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Speaker 3: or mistaken you know, assignments by Secret Service and the

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Speaker 3: local police. And this gunman who was you know, four

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Speaker 3: hundred feet away, climbed up on a roof and despite

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Speaker 3: warnings from people who were watching the Trump rally from

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Speaker 3: outside that initial Secret Service security perimeter, it just wasn't

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Speaker 3: enough time to save you know, the life of the

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Speaker 3: man who was shot and to stop former President Trump

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Speaker 3: from being hit with a bullet. And you know, I

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Speaker 3: will add that the way that his head was turned

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Speaker 3: and he was hit, you know, Trump boton looks around,

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Speaker 3: but just the way that his head was if it

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Speaker 3: was turned a different way, it might have been a

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Speaker 3: different story.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me the lightest on what we know

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Speaker 1: about the alleged shooter.

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Speaker 3: So he was a twenty year old man from Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: He was a registered Republican The latest reporting that CBS

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Speaker 3: has is that the man had some kind of explosive

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Speaker 3: device in his car which was near the rally site.

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Speaker 2: Not at the rally, but near there.

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Speaker 3: And look, I believe that a bomb squad found explosive

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Speaker 3: material and bomb making material at his home. And we

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Speaker 3: have not found any kind of manifesto or anything yet,

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Speaker 3: but our social media investigative teams and everyone is doing

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Speaker 3: their best right now to piece together what we think

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Speaker 3: got him to the point where he felt like he

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Speaker 3: needed to try to take the life.

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Speaker 2: Of a former president.

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Speaker 1: And the Republican National Convention is still going ahead. You're

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Speaker 1: there in Milwaukee this way. They're concerns about safety ahead

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Speaker 1: of that event.

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Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, you know, this event just like the Democratic one,

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Speaker 3: just like things like the World Cup, the Super Bowl,

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Speaker 3: massive supporting events in America, celebrity events. They're operated and

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Speaker 3: run by Secret Service, the same group that runs these rallies,

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Speaker 3: and they're certainly concerned. There's a couple of security perimeters.

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Speaker 3: The former president is here. He got here right before

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Speaker 3: you and I started speaking, and you know, we'll kind

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Speaker 3: of have to see you. You know how these politicians

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Speaker 3: and speakers talk about what happened yesterday, but it just

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Speaker 3: seems like, you know, it's this tangible feeling of nervousness

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Speaker 3: among my colleagues and I who are there and who

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Speaker 3: are now here, and just generally across the board that

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Speaker 3: there's so much going on in the world outside of

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Speaker 3: America that we are already on alert for, and now

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Speaker 3: there's one very, very significant development that I think just

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Speaker 3: makes you know, the hair on the back of your

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Speaker 3: neck stand up a little bit as you kind of

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Speaker 3: walk around the city. And I was in Chicago at

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Speaker 3: the airport about an hour and a half ago, and

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Speaker 3: just makes you look behind your back a couple more

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Speaker 3: times than usually would.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Jake. With four months to go

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Speaker 1: until Americans head to the polls, this shooting could not

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Speaker 1: have come at a more contentious time for American politics

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Speaker 1: to discuss the wider ramifications of this. We're joined now

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Speaker 1: by Alci Llespie Ow. The FBI and other authorities are

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Speaker 1: currently sweeping the shooter's social media accounts searching for any

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Speaker 1: kind of possible motive. Now it's all dependent on what

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Speaker 1: they find, of course, but what are the early indications

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Speaker 1: of what this could have actually possibly been.

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Speaker 5: Well, most people will recognize it as an assassination, and

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Speaker 5: that's more of a political term than a legal term

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Speaker 5: or an attempted assassination, and that's where you target a

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Speaker 5: high profile person. Searching for the social media is important

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Speaker 5: because they'll be looking more for a motive, and if

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Speaker 5: you can find a motive, that could change it from

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Speaker 5: an act of murder or attended murder to an act

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Speaker 5: of terrorism. And that means they'll be trying to find

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Speaker 5: out the ideological purpose of why the shooter did this act.

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Speaker 1: They're also following up on the suggestion it could have

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Speaker 1: been a domestic terrorism attack. What's the difference there, Well.

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Speaker 5: If it's terrorism, it means that it will be viewed

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Speaker 5: very differently, not just legally, but also politically, because people

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Speaker 5: will instantly start to associate that one person with any

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Speaker 5: groups that they may have associated with. And so often

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Speaker 5: when you designate some of the terror act, you can,

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Speaker 5: if it's not carefully done, implicate wider communities or people

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Speaker 5: with like minded views. It shouldn't be political, but often

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Speaker 5: when it is designated this terrorism, it can be seen

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Speaker 5: as political.

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Speaker 6: I want to speak to you tonight about the need

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Speaker 6: for us to lower the temperature in our politics and

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Speaker 6: to remember or we may disagree, we are not enemies.

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Speaker 6: We're neighbors. We're friends, co workers, citizens, and most importantly,

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Speaker 6: we are fellow Americans. We must stand together. There's no

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Speaker 6: place in America this kind of violence, for any violence, ever, period,

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Speaker 6: no exceptions. We can't allow this violence to be normalized.

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Speaker 6: You know, the political record in this country has gotten

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Speaker 6: very heated.

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Speaker 2: It's time to cool it down.

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Speaker 1: The US is already quite tense in the midst of

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four US presidential election. What could this

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Speaker 1: event mean for the race going forward?

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Speaker 5: Well, there's so much going on right now. I mean

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Speaker 5: in terms of the race going forward. With regards to

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Speaker 5: further tanks, there's always a risk that you'll get either

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Speaker 5: copycats where someone will find inspiration and the notoriety of

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Speaker 5: the killer and do a similar act, or you might

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Speaker 5: get a reprisal attack as well, where someone will lash

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Speaker 5: out against the community that they perceive the attempted assassin

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Speaker 5: to have come from. And so the risk of violence

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Speaker 5: will be elevated in a number of areas. I don't

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Speaker 5: think that the actual terror threat levels in America have

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Speaker 5: yet increased, but they will be increasingly vigilant around high

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Speaker 5: profile events. And the second thing that you need to

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Speaker 5: watch for is the inquiry process, because whenever you have

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Speaker 5: such a high profile attack and is in all countries,

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Speaker 5: you have to find out why that happened, and so

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Speaker 5: that it's never good to call for quick inquiries as

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Speaker 5: mister Biden's done. You want to have initial inquiries and

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Speaker 5: then you want to get right to the bottom of

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Speaker 5: the details of why this person did that and how

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Speaker 5: they achieved it. With regards to the actual election, I

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Speaker 5: know a lot of people are saying it's going to

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Speaker 5: be a landslipe for Trump right now, but I think

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Speaker 5: it's premature to actually come to that position because there's

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Speaker 5: a fair chance that mister Biden might even be the

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Speaker 5: preferred candidate going into the election in November, and so

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Speaker 5: I think there's still a lot of water to go

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Speaker 5: into the bridge in what is already a very tense

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Speaker 5: political campaign cycle.

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Speaker 1: The history of assassination attempts and assassinations of US presidents

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Speaker 1: isn't new, and with it comes that barrage of conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 1: People still can't agree on what actually happened to JFK,

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Speaker 1: for instance. This time, though social media is playing a

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Speaker 1: big role in spreading theories on both sides of the aisle. Hey,

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Speaker 1: some of the right wing saying Biden or George Soros

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Speaker 1: was behind it, some of the left arguing the shooting

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Speaker 1: was staged. What do these suggestions mean for US politics?

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Speaker 5: It's not just US politics, it's politics and all democracies.

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Speaker 5: That the amount of misinformation and disinformation is on steroids

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Speaker 5: right now, and that we need to take a little

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Speaker 5: bit of a step back, try to be calm and

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Speaker 5: let the authorities go about their processes so that we

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Speaker 5: can get to some certainty. It's not new that dis

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Speaker 5: misinformation or disinformation or even propaganda, but the spread of it,

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Speaker 5: the speed of it, and the depth of it is unprecedented.

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Speaker 5: And the risk is that this information is then used

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Speaker 5: by others to go on and justify violence against other

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Speaker 5: civilians intercourse of their actions.

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Speaker 1: This shooting comes as a tax over. Project twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: a right wing think tank wish list for Republican presidency,

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Speaker 1: has been making the headlines.

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Speaker 7: Product twenty twenty five is a collection of conservative policies

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Speaker 7: and a blueprint for the next conservative president, which includes

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Speaker 7: policies like a crackdown and abortion pills. The reinstatement of

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Speaker 7: the Trump era immigration bans, a ban on transgender people

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Speaker 7: serving in the military, and eliminating the Department of Education.

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Speaker 7: The handbook outlines an expansion of presidential power and plans

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Speaker 7: to fire as many as fifty thousand government workers to

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Speaker 7: be placed with conservatives, including a top to bottom overhaul

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Speaker 7: the Department of Justice and the FBI.

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Speaker 1: Does this incident just bury any attack lines on Trump

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Speaker 1: for the next we are?

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Speaker 5: I hope?

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 5: I hope the Americans can take a pause from this

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Speaker 5: terrible incident and come together. I was heartened by a

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Speaker 5: millennia Trump's post about the importance of getting above politics

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Speaker 5: and just coming together as a community. Ideally, in my world,

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Speaker 5: there'd be no campaigning for the next ten days, that

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Speaker 5: Biden and Trump would come together and collectively condemn political

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Speaker 5: violence under any justification. The problem is that the election

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Speaker 5: cycle is now only perhaps one hundred days away, and

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Speaker 5: trying to pause it and not use this for an

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Speaker 5: unnecessary gain for one party or the other will be

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Speaker 5: very difficult to achieve. But right now, all Americans need

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Speaker 5: to just take a deep breath, because the risk is

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Speaker 5: not just to the presidential campaign, it's to the integrity

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Speaker 5: of their country in general, because if more conflict breaks out,

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Speaker 5: it could just spread more conflict.

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Speaker 1: Since the attack, we've seen an outpouring of nation from

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Speaker 1: world leaders after the shooting, including Israel's Benjamin Natan Yahoo.

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Speaker 1: What does an assassination attempt like this mean for international relations?

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Speaker 5: Sometimes assassinations are linked to foreign countries, and if they're

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Speaker 5: linked to foreign countries, it can make it very difficult

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Speaker 5: to maintain stable relationships. We yet to see all the

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Speaker 5: information about the killer, but primar face, it appears that

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Speaker 5: he was a lone wolf acting by himself. Most politicians,

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Speaker 5: especially in Western democracies, will come out and condemn this

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Speaker 5: because they will realize that if you don't condemn it, unfortunately,

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Speaker 5: very quickly you two could become a target. So it's

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Speaker 5: in best self interest, not just for their own preservation,

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Speaker 5: but also as a question of politics and principle.

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Speaker 1: Now do you think this incident is enough to change

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Speaker 1: the public's perception of Trump and see him re elected

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Speaker 1: or will it only drive divisions in the US.

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Speaker 5: I am always hopeful that there's a good middle ground

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Speaker 5: in America, and I think that's somewhat optimistic on my part,

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Speaker 5: that there is a good common center between the Democrats

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Speaker 5: and the Republicans where they can find unity, and I'm

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Speaker 5: hoping they can find unity in their joint condemnation of

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Speaker 5: any kind of political violence. But the realistic side of

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Speaker 5: me understands that ever since mister Biden won the election

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Speaker 5: has become a much more contested and a much more

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Speaker 5: angry country. Americans nearly always do the right thing. It

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Speaker 5: just takes some time to get there, but it will

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Speaker 5: take extraordinary restraint from many people right now not to

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Speaker 5: lash out, both in terms of blaming other communities and

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Speaker 5: seeking vengeance for themselves.

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Speaker 1: This attempted assassination on Trump. Obviously, it's astonishing that someone

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Speaker 1: can get a firearm as close to a former US

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Speaker 1: president as this person has. What do you think it

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Speaker 1: will do to the debate around gun control in America.

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Speaker 5: It will make it difficult, especially now that the president

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Speaker 5: has been a target of a loan shooter. Normally, what

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Speaker 5: happens when you have an incident like this is they

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Speaker 5: review the firearms platform that was used, how the firearm

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Speaker 5: was accessed by the shooter. In America, in the past,

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Speaker 5: they have prohibited these types of firearms. Between nineteen ninety

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Speaker 5: four and two thousand and four, but that prohibition lapsed

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Speaker 5: on semi automatic. I don't think that there will be

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Speaker 5: a appetite for prohibition of these firearms, but I expect

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Speaker 5: you will see a lot of focus around the laws

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Speaker 5: that allowed potentially an unlicensed person without a background check

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Speaker 5: to have access to firearm that his father may have bought.

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Speaker 5: So I don't think you'll see prohibition, but I think

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Speaker 5: you may see a tightening, especially in Pennsylvania, around the

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Speaker 5: safe storage of firearms.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us out that said, for this episode

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Speaker 1: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's

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Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at ZAD Herald dot co

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Speaker 1: dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seals

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Speaker 1: with sound engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to

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Speaker 1: The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.