1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,547 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:12,907 Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZEDB move. 3 00:00:12,827 --> 00:00:16,667 Speaker 2: To Rugby League. Melbourne Storm forward Ali Kartaua won't play 4 00:00:16,907 --> 00:00:19,907 Speaker 2: in the NRL next year. The club have confirmed he 5 00:00:19,947 --> 00:00:23,067 Speaker 2: won't be available for the twenty twenty six season after 6 00:00:23,107 --> 00:00:26,227 Speaker 2: he needed emergency brain surgery and the wake of tong 7 00:00:26,307 --> 00:00:28,427 Speaker 2: has lost to the Kiwis in Auckland. Earlier this month, 8 00:00:28,747 --> 00:00:31,547 Speaker 2: the twenty five year old former Warriors player was rushed 9 00:00:31,747 --> 00:00:35,947 Speaker 2: to hospital having taken three head knocks before and during 10 00:00:36,427 --> 00:00:41,347 Speaker 2: the Pacific Championship test. Storm CEO Justin Rodsky says cart 11 00:00:41,347 --> 00:00:44,627 Speaker 2: Tower has returned to Melbourne, but after consultation with the 12 00:00:44,627 --> 00:00:48,187 Speaker 2: club's doctor and some neuro specialists, he will not be 13 00:00:48,267 --> 00:00:52,427 Speaker 2: available in twenty twenty six. Let's get some further insight 14 00:00:52,467 --> 00:00:56,387 Speaker 2: into this. Kiwis doctor Greg McLoud is with us. Greg, 15 00:00:56,387 --> 00:00:58,267 Speaker 2: thanks for taking the time for a chat this afternoon. 16 00:00:58,627 --> 00:01:01,787 Speaker 2: What was your overall assessment of what played out in 17 00:01:01,987 --> 00:01:05,467 Speaker 2: the case of Ali Carta? 18 00:01:05,587 --> 00:01:08,427 Speaker 3: Oh? I think so and thanks for time. So firstly, 19 00:01:09,067 --> 00:01:12,067 Speaker 3: what played out? My heart goes out to Ellen his Stamley. 20 00:01:12,107 --> 00:01:15,867 Speaker 3: I know it's a pretty traumatic event and I'm devastating 21 00:01:15,947 --> 00:01:18,667 Speaker 3: him for the head of the season and how applaud 22 00:01:18,707 --> 00:01:22,347 Speaker 3: the Melbourne Storm for giving them the time to recover. So, yeah, 23 00:01:22,467 --> 00:01:24,227 Speaker 3: very unfortunate events. But I guess we need to take 24 00:01:24,227 --> 00:01:28,827 Speaker 3: some learnings from that. Of course, you know what happened 25 00:01:28,907 --> 00:01:31,867 Speaker 3: was you know, you sort everyone needs to reflect on that, 26 00:01:31,987 --> 00:01:34,907 Speaker 3: not not only about what happened, but how that could 27 00:01:34,947 --> 00:01:38,947 Speaker 3: be prevented. Certainly the situation that unfolded. You know, there 28 00:01:38,947 --> 00:01:41,867 Speaker 3: are obviously multiple what seems to me seemed with multiple 29 00:01:41,867 --> 00:01:44,747 Speaker 3: steps there that perhaps there could have been some change 30 00:01:44,787 --> 00:01:46,507 Speaker 3: at certain levels. And I know the n has done 31 00:01:46,547 --> 00:01:49,507 Speaker 3: some independent investigation that and hopefully we'll get some learnings 32 00:01:49,507 --> 00:01:51,587 Speaker 3: for that. But what we take from that is a 33 00:01:51,667 --> 00:01:55,147 Speaker 3: second there is a collective responsibility to make sure we 34 00:01:55,267 --> 00:02:00,347 Speaker 3: hopefully don't see anything like that again. There's no you know, 35 00:02:00,387 --> 00:02:03,827 Speaker 3: there's seen some practical music but in place, but the 36 00:02:04,027 --> 00:02:06,507 Speaker 3: changing type of attitude towards head injuries in the SHO 37 00:02:07,387 --> 00:02:10,027 Speaker 3: needs to continue to change, which it is, but it 38 00:02:10,107 --> 00:02:12,547 Speaker 3: needs to hopefully catch up a bit quicker. 39 00:02:13,227 --> 00:02:15,667 Speaker 2: This was a slightly unusual situation and that he took 40 00:02:15,707 --> 00:02:19,547 Speaker 2: ahead knock before the game started during during the warm ups. 41 00:02:19,987 --> 00:02:22,467 Speaker 2: How common is that and is there a protocol for 42 00:02:22,747 --> 00:02:23,787 Speaker 2: situations like that. 43 00:02:24,867 --> 00:02:26,547 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is what the learning, one of 44 00:02:26,547 --> 00:02:28,747 Speaker 3: the major learning is why hopefully what we should take 45 00:02:28,747 --> 00:02:31,547 Speaker 3: from us is that it has higher other potential gap 46 00:02:31,627 --> 00:02:35,107 Speaker 3: in the game in my opinion. You know, we do 47 00:02:35,227 --> 00:02:38,507 Speaker 3: have increasing types and measures that happened during the game 48 00:02:38,547 --> 00:02:42,667 Speaker 3: with independent concussion spots and the bunker system, which is 49 00:02:42,707 --> 00:02:44,507 Speaker 3: a good thing, and I think we should continue to 50 00:02:44,547 --> 00:02:49,267 Speaker 3: support that model. But you know, what happened the warm up, 51 00:02:49,267 --> 00:02:54,187 Speaker 3: there's still an era which injuries can happen, which you 52 00:02:54,227 --> 00:02:57,187 Speaker 3: know obviously was a case there. And you know, while 53 00:02:57,187 --> 00:02:59,347 Speaker 3: there was a video footage of that which emerged, that 54 00:02:59,547 --> 00:03:03,427 Speaker 3: wasn't actually that was on broadcast news for broadcast footage. 55 00:03:03,427 --> 00:03:06,587 Speaker 3: And perhaps there need to be some extension of the 56 00:03:06,707 --> 00:03:11,627 Speaker 3: courage of spotters and formal coverage of that for available 57 00:03:11,667 --> 00:03:14,507 Speaker 3: for sort of monitoring and review to extend into the 58 00:03:14,547 --> 00:03:17,467 Speaker 3: warm up, because that's clearly an injury reskt on as 59 00:03:17,547 --> 00:03:20,987 Speaker 3: it's eventuated. But it's probably a gap there which we've 60 00:03:21,027 --> 00:03:23,347 Speaker 3: now since seen and realized that po potent. You could 61 00:03:23,787 --> 00:03:24,947 Speaker 3: make some movements there. 62 00:03:25,427 --> 00:03:29,147 Speaker 2: You talk before Greg quite rightly about practical applications, practical 63 00:03:29,187 --> 00:03:32,747 Speaker 2: steps that can be taken, but also attitudes. Is there 64 00:03:32,827 --> 00:03:36,347 Speaker 2: still a big challenge in getting players to admit when 65 00:03:36,347 --> 00:03:37,667 Speaker 2: they've taken a knock to the heat. 66 00:03:39,027 --> 00:03:42,467 Speaker 3: It is, and there's some very good research through Tom Longworth, 67 00:03:42,467 --> 00:03:45,547 Speaker 3: who was Performers REUSS doctor the prend of NROL experience 68 00:03:45,707 --> 00:03:48,107 Speaker 3: at a nice class sectional study in twenty twenty one 69 00:03:49,067 --> 00:03:52,987 Speaker 3: on the attitude and reporting of specifically elite rugged players 70 00:03:52,987 --> 00:03:56,427 Speaker 3: in the NRL aback reporting, seventeen percent admitted to not 71 00:03:56,587 --> 00:04:01,227 Speaker 3: reporting percussion symptoms. That was then fall five years ago. Now, 72 00:04:01,267 --> 00:04:03,547 Speaker 3: so you would like to think things are changing, but 73 00:04:03,747 --> 00:04:07,187 Speaker 3: I do think there is obviously still an element of 74 00:04:07,307 --> 00:04:11,707 Speaker 3: underreporting that happens, and that's really differentive. It's a tricky 75 00:04:11,747 --> 00:04:14,627 Speaker 3: era because I guess that comes down to motivation to 76 00:04:14,707 --> 00:04:16,827 Speaker 3: report and not report it. You know, if you look 77 00:04:16,827 --> 00:04:20,187 Speaker 3: at the situation that happened on in the Pacific Championships, 78 00:04:21,147 --> 00:04:23,947 Speaker 3: young man making you know, about to play for his 79 00:04:23,987 --> 00:04:27,267 Speaker 3: country in a crucially important match. You know, I don't 80 00:04:27,267 --> 00:04:28,747 Speaker 3: know what was going through his head. I don't know 81 00:04:28,787 --> 00:04:30,347 Speaker 3: what happened. I don't know if there was even a 82 00:04:30,387 --> 00:04:33,027 Speaker 3: discussion of that. But that might be a very different 83 00:04:33,067 --> 00:04:37,187 Speaker 3: scenario to someone who's playing in an er player has 84 00:04:37,187 --> 00:04:39,427 Speaker 3: been dropped to the reserve grade and in that bottom 85 00:04:39,427 --> 00:04:41,987 Speaker 3: of the ladder. So you know, there's all these intrinsic 86 00:04:42,067 --> 00:04:44,947 Speaker 3: motivations and there's external ones too, but you know, po 87 00:04:44,987 --> 00:04:48,627 Speaker 3: tendency is there if I don't play, what does that mean? 88 00:04:48,947 --> 00:04:50,987 Speaker 3: Will I lose my face for that guarantee their contract? 89 00:04:51,067 --> 00:04:55,307 Speaker 3: So sort of multi variable pressures I imagine that would 90 00:04:55,307 --> 00:04:59,467 Speaker 3: influence that. But we do know that concussion symptoms are underreported. 91 00:05:00,347 --> 00:05:02,107 Speaker 3: I don't know what the current rate is, but it's 92 00:05:02,107 --> 00:05:04,307 Speaker 3: a very well recognized fact that it does happen. 93 00:05:04,787 --> 00:05:07,227 Speaker 2: Just a clarity, Greg, it does take a head not 94 00:05:07,307 --> 00:05:09,347 Speaker 2: let's bring it into the game where it's most common. 95 00:05:09,507 --> 00:05:11,307 Speaker 2: If a player takes a head not during the game 96 00:05:11,467 --> 00:05:14,507 Speaker 2: and it has to come off, or actually, let's take 97 00:05:14,507 --> 00:05:15,947 Speaker 2: a back if a play takes a head not during 98 00:05:15,947 --> 00:05:18,827 Speaker 2: a game. What is the protocol? What is your responsibility 99 00:05:18,827 --> 00:05:19,947 Speaker 2: as part of the medical team. 100 00:05:20,907 --> 00:05:22,387 Speaker 3: So yes, as I mentioned in the side of it's 101 00:05:22,507 --> 00:05:26,707 Speaker 3: a collective responsibility. So it's you know, gathering the colater 102 00:05:26,747 --> 00:05:29,387 Speaker 3: information about who saw what, and there are processes, a 103 00:05:29,467 --> 00:05:31,587 Speaker 3: formul a place of that, and you know each team 104 00:05:31,667 --> 00:05:34,347 Speaker 3: has their own sort of you know, personal relationships with 105 00:05:34,387 --> 00:05:36,547 Speaker 3: the onfield stuff and supporting those are good ones, but 106 00:05:36,987 --> 00:05:41,147 Speaker 3: collective responsibility to see and act and report about what 107 00:05:41,187 --> 00:05:43,987 Speaker 3: you've seen. And that's not only just you know, staff 108 00:05:44,067 --> 00:05:46,707 Speaker 3: and field, it's you know, you might see something on 109 00:05:46,747 --> 00:05:48,987 Speaker 3: the sideline and other players are actually getting better at 110 00:05:48,987 --> 00:05:50,987 Speaker 3: the too. As often we do take a cherisy and 111 00:05:51,667 --> 00:05:53,867 Speaker 3: teammate sers it's not or so, I mean he's not good. 112 00:05:54,707 --> 00:05:56,947 Speaker 3: We take that very seriously because they might see something 113 00:05:56,987 --> 00:06:00,387 Speaker 3: we don't, you know. So there's a collective responsibility about 114 00:06:00,467 --> 00:06:04,427 Speaker 3: recognizing potentially something happening in acting up, so you know, 115 00:06:05,027 --> 00:06:06,867 Speaker 3: going to the videos and have a look at that 116 00:06:06,987 --> 00:06:10,587 Speaker 3: very quickly, you know, and having a low threshold to 117 00:06:10,707 --> 00:06:14,267 Speaker 3: have a safety first, so when in doubt we take it, 118 00:06:14,267 --> 00:06:16,467 Speaker 3: reach them, an't we take them off, because there's no 119 00:06:16,507 --> 00:06:18,747 Speaker 3: harm in really bringing someone off for fifteen minutes and 120 00:06:19,347 --> 00:06:22,187 Speaker 3: working out that day find and perhaps maybe it was 121 00:06:22,587 --> 00:06:24,627 Speaker 3: a cautious called bringer. I think that's always something that 122 00:06:24,667 --> 00:06:27,867 Speaker 3: should or certainly would be the practice in most peoples 123 00:06:28,907 --> 00:06:30,627 Speaker 3: in the game. That could be the way we're moving 124 00:06:30,747 --> 00:06:33,027 Speaker 3: is just if you're not sure, just let's get them 125 00:06:33,027 --> 00:06:36,267 Speaker 3: off and check them out. So having a low threshold, 126 00:06:36,267 --> 00:06:39,987 Speaker 3: I gets some suspension for you know, it's it's something 127 00:06:40,467 --> 00:06:42,747 Speaker 3: something happened until we prove it didn't. If that makes 128 00:06:42,747 --> 00:06:43,267 Speaker 3: any sense. 129 00:06:43,347 --> 00:06:46,387 Speaker 2: It does, isn't it a potential for tension between medical 130 00:06:46,427 --> 00:06:49,187 Speaker 2: stuff and high performance stuff. Coach is signing, Hi, he's fine. 131 00:06:49,187 --> 00:06:50,067 Speaker 2: I want to bag on there. 132 00:06:52,027 --> 00:06:54,987 Speaker 3: Look, I want to know that's probably been a discussion 133 00:06:54,987 --> 00:06:58,027 Speaker 3: and a flavor of what's potentially gone past. Again, that 134 00:06:58,147 --> 00:07:02,947 Speaker 3: comes down to education and understanding concussion in the wider context. Again, 135 00:07:02,987 --> 00:07:04,587 Speaker 3: it's a collective response to the least a lot of 136 00:07:05,627 --> 00:07:08,107 Speaker 3: I think discussion before you get to that point. So 137 00:07:08,387 --> 00:07:10,427 Speaker 3: you know, if you know, this is certainly something that 138 00:07:10,427 --> 00:07:12,387 Speaker 3: I do in my blacks, I've done with my coaches 139 00:07:12,987 --> 00:07:15,867 Speaker 3: in the science Yeason, we have an open yd this. 140 00:07:16,547 --> 00:07:18,667 Speaker 3: Sometimes this is effect of the matter of the game. 141 00:07:18,667 --> 00:07:22,267 Speaker 3: It's contacts or people will get head injuries, and it 142 00:07:22,387 --> 00:07:24,307 Speaker 3: is what it is. We have to look after the 143 00:07:24,307 --> 00:07:28,427 Speaker 3: player and getting by in is you know, certainly can 144 00:07:28,507 --> 00:07:30,547 Speaker 3: be very I understand that people are bit different, but 145 00:07:31,227 --> 00:07:34,787 Speaker 3: having a good relationship with medical staff and performance staff 146 00:07:34,867 --> 00:07:38,067 Speaker 3: is crucial, and I think we're moving close and closer 147 00:07:38,107 --> 00:07:40,947 Speaker 3: to that as we say, more normal thing. And I 148 00:07:40,987 --> 00:07:44,707 Speaker 3: think within the introduction of the independent system has created 149 00:07:45,467 --> 00:07:48,427 Speaker 3: an opportunity there or at least a discussion, but that 150 00:07:49,547 --> 00:07:52,107 Speaker 3: sometimes that might not necessarily be a decision. So that's 151 00:07:52,107 --> 00:07:55,507 Speaker 3: actually made it a bit easier for team stuff. You know, 152 00:07:55,947 --> 00:07:59,427 Speaker 3: they were taken off independently. It wasn't there is no 153 00:07:59,507 --> 00:08:01,467 Speaker 3: stake in the game, and the person's not right and 154 00:08:01,787 --> 00:08:05,067 Speaker 3: someone else is agreeing with me, So that's it's becoming 155 00:08:05,107 --> 00:08:07,307 Speaker 3: less and necessive mission certain not an issue that I 156 00:08:07,427 --> 00:08:08,707 Speaker 3: come across at all. 157 00:08:08,867 --> 00:08:10,827 Speaker 2: That's great to hear, and just to Finn's just back 158 00:08:10,867 --> 00:08:13,147 Speaker 2: to this specific case and it's it's a it's a 159 00:08:13,227 --> 00:08:16,547 Speaker 2: terrible case and the consequences are are significant. A year 160 00:08:16,627 --> 00:08:19,307 Speaker 2: out of the game, do you think the seriousness of 161 00:08:19,307 --> 00:08:21,627 Speaker 2: this and the consequence is now faced by Eli Cartor 162 00:08:21,707 --> 00:08:24,427 Speaker 2: because of it will serve as a lake up cause 163 00:08:24,507 --> 00:08:27,707 Speaker 2: the right the right phrase a cautionary tale? Will it? 164 00:08:27,747 --> 00:08:29,987 Speaker 2: Will it? Will it improve attitudes? Do you think or 165 00:08:30,067 --> 00:08:32,827 Speaker 2: help to improve player attitudes about head knocks? 166 00:08:33,627 --> 00:08:36,747 Speaker 3: I certainly, I do think it will. I certainly hope so, 167 00:08:36,787 --> 00:08:41,307 Speaker 3: I hope while it was an unfortunate incident, I hope 168 00:08:41,347 --> 00:08:43,587 Speaker 3: I hope we do all take some learnings from that 169 00:08:43,667 --> 00:08:47,307 Speaker 3: and how to prevent and and not end up in 170 00:08:47,307 --> 00:08:49,827 Speaker 3: a situation that I mean, it's just often I'm glad 171 00:08:49,827 --> 00:08:53,107 Speaker 3: he's he's okay. His future is a bit uncertain, which 172 00:08:53,147 --> 00:08:55,827 Speaker 3: is very unfortunate. But hopefully we will all take some 173 00:08:56,067 --> 00:09:00,107 Speaker 3: caution in the wind with regards to you know, these 174 00:09:00,147 --> 00:09:03,867 Speaker 3: things head knocks and you should never underestimate them because 175 00:09:05,187 --> 00:09:07,547 Speaker 3: you know it's it's not in a cases she'll be right, 176 00:09:07,627 --> 00:09:11,027 Speaker 3: it's something sometimes that turned out a bit worse. So 177 00:09:11,707 --> 00:09:15,227 Speaker 3: i'd hope so I hope you'd hope that will serve 178 00:09:15,267 --> 00:09:19,587 Speaker 3: as a as a learning point for future education decisions 179 00:09:19,867 --> 00:09:22,347 Speaker 3: discussions which are all upcoming tall upon us now at 180 00:09:22,347 --> 00:09:24,627 Speaker 3: pre season has just started everywhere across in the rowland. 181 00:09:26,067 --> 00:09:30,267 Speaker 3: Hopefully that could be a very topical reminder that we 182 00:09:30,267 --> 00:09:31,227 Speaker 3: need to take this seriously. 183 00:09:31,467 --> 00:09:34,787 Speaker 2: Let's hope. So, Greg, you've provided superb in side and expertise. 184 00:09:34,907 --> 00:09:37,747 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us this afternoon. It's my pleasure that 185 00:09:37,867 --> 00:09:42,947 Speaker 2: is Greg McLeod. He is was the key with doctor 186 00:09:43,187 --> 00:09:46,707 Speaker 2: in that Test match actually and providing excellent insight there. 187 00:09:46,747 --> 00:09:48,667 Speaker 2: Let's hope that our lessons are learned. 188 00:09:49,227 --> 00:09:52,387 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live 189 00:09:52,507 --> 00:09:55,907 Speaker 1: to News Talk ZB weekends from midday, or follow the 190 00:09:55,947 --> 00:09:57,387 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio