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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Tame podcast

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Speaker 1: from news Talks at b.

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Speaker 2: Eighty years ago, Nazi high command were put on trial

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Speaker 2: in Nuremberg. In a brand new film, Nuremberg follows the

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Speaker 2: lesson on lead up to official proceedings as a psychiatrist

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Speaker 2: evaluates the psychological fitness of detained Nazi officials.

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Speaker 3: Justice Jackson, they captures Herman Goring alive. The governments of Russia, France,

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Speaker 3: Great Britain and our United States. We'll put these men.

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Speaker 2: On trial for their lives. Doctor Kelly, who will expect

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Speaker 2: and ensure the prisoner's mental health.

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Speaker 3: Is highly intelligent, charming, and a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: I am going to escape, saying.

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Speaker 3: Men, very sure, no man has ever beitten me.

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Speaker 2: Best known for scripting blockbuster hits, an edge of your

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Speaker 2: seat thrillers like The Amazing Spider Man and Zodiac, James

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Speaker 2: Vanderbilt wrote the screenplay for Nuremberg and directed the film,

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Speaker 2: and James is with us this morning, keld To, welcome

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Speaker 2: to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Jack.

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Speaker 2: Nuremberg is an extraordinary film. It is effecting and it

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Speaker 2: feels timely. What is it about this story that you

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Speaker 2: wanted to tell.

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Speaker 3: I mean so many things, you know. It was I

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Speaker 3: first came to it thirteen years ago and I read

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Speaker 3: a book proposal by a guy named Jack L. High,

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Speaker 3: who ended up writing The Nazi and the Psychiatrist, which

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Speaker 3: was the book the film was based on. But it

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Speaker 3: was only five or six pages, and it sort of

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Speaker 3: talked about the psychiatrist Douglas Kelly, who Romi Malick plays,

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Speaker 3: being called in at the end of World War Two

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Speaker 3: to go and evaluate the surviving Nazi high command, including

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Speaker 3: Herman Gerring, who Russell Crowe plays, And it was so

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Speaker 3: it was so fascinating to me because it was it

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Speaker 3: was a period of time I thought I knew a

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Speaker 3: lot about I studied it in school, like we all

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Speaker 3: sort of do in the States, and yet I knew

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Speaker 3: nothing about this. So I didn't know there were psychiatrists

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Speaker 3: in the US Army in World War Two. I didn't

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Speaker 3: know that this whole situation had transpired. I didn't know

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Speaker 3: the US Army and many of the other countries had

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Speaker 3: no interest in putting the trials on in the first

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Speaker 3: place and had to be talked into it. So it

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Speaker 3: just was such an incredible story that really happened. It

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Speaker 3: was the fastest I ever said yes to anything in

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Speaker 3: my life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because I felt exactly

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Speaker 2: the same way. And then I felt like I had

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Speaker 2: a sort of an understanding, you know, a kind of broad,

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Speaker 2: if somewhat loose understanding of the history. I knew about

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Speaker 2: the trials, I knew about the process and establishing the court,

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Speaker 2: but I had absolutely no idea about this character, Douglas Kelly,

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Speaker 2: who kind of fulfilled an extraordinary role. But clearly, the film,

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Speaker 2: as much as it is about the Nazis' atrocities, is

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Speaker 2: really about a relationship between two men, between Rhymey's character

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Speaker 2: and between Russell's characters. So can you talk to me

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Speaker 2: about your pro and trying to describe that relationship.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's interesting. One of the first movies

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Speaker 3: we talked about with Silence of the Lambs and that

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Speaker 3: idea of the person going into the cell and sitting

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Speaker 3: with the prisoner, you know, and in our film, they're

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Speaker 3: both trying to get over on each other a little bit.

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Speaker 3: They're both trying to get something out of each other.

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Speaker 3: Kelly is trying to get you know, Goring to open

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Speaker 3: up for a book he wants to write, you know,

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Speaker 3: and he wants to understand what is the nature of

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Speaker 3: evil and what mirroring is trying to get something out

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Speaker 3: of Kelly, you know, he's trying to get over on him.

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Speaker 3: He's trying to get his last moment in the sun

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Speaker 3: in the courtroom. And so that relationship with something we

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Speaker 3: talked a lot about, and I sort of loved the

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Speaker 3: idea of these two men both trying to play each

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Speaker 3: other and yet at the same time connecting in a

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Speaker 3: way that neither of them saw coming, and that to

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Speaker 3: me just felt delicious in order to play. And as

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Speaker 3: I started researching it, because the book is really just

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Speaker 3: about the two of them, I learned about Robert Jackson,

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Speaker 3: whom Michael Shannon plays, and all of the work he

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Speaker 3: did to put the Trials on. You know, the US

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Speaker 3: Army didn't want the trials. They wanted to shoot the

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Speaker 3: Nazis in the head and call it today. And Jackson said, no,

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Speaker 3: this is important. This, you know, these crimes need to

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Speaker 3: be exposed on the world stage for people to actually

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Speaker 3: believe that this really happened. And he made the trials happen.

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Speaker 3: Then took a leave of absence from the Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: flew to Nuremberg became the chief prosecutor for the Americans.

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Speaker 3: So at first I went, oh, I think my movie's

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Speaker 3: over here in the cell. And then I went, oh,

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Speaker 3: but it's also over here with Jackson in the court.

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Speaker 3: And I learned about how he treast who's the translator

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Speaker 3: who Leo Woodall plays in his story, and I went, oh,

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Speaker 3: my gosh, my mo movie's also over here with this character.

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Speaker 3: And so as I researched that, you know, the movie

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Speaker 3: just kind of grew and grew and grew and grew,

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Speaker 3: which as a screenwriter is terrifying, sort of not what

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Speaker 3: you want. You know, when you adapt something, it's about subtraction.

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Speaker 3: You know, you get three hundred and fifty pages of

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Speaker 3: a book that you got to fit into two hours

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Speaker 3: of the film. And this thing went exactly the other way.

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Speaker 3: It just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm so happy it did because I just there's

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Speaker 3: so many fascinating stories that I get to interweave in

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Speaker 3: the film.

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Speaker 2: I can only imagine your horror at the story getting bigger.

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Speaker 2: When the thing that really distinguishes Nuremberg, I think is

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Speaker 2: that you have managed to distill the complexity of the

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Speaker 2: relationship like you can imagine in another world and in

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Speaker 2: another film, it would be very easy to have a

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Speaker 2: kind of binary vision of both Douglas and of human Gerring, right,

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Speaker 2: and just be like, here's evil, he is good, and

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Speaker 2: that's the end of that. But actually, the thing that

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Speaker 2: you've really achieved in the film is that you've managed

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Speaker 2: to show a far more nuanced relationship, the things they

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Speaker 2: like about each other, the sort of elements of friendship

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Speaker 2: and companionship that they have, as well as the more

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Speaker 2: dark and kind of sinister components, which I mean as

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Speaker 2: a hell of an achievement. But talk to me about

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Speaker 2: your decision to write the film, because that's a critical

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Speaker 2: part I think in achieving that complexity.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know that the amazing thing was

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Speaker 3: I decided to write the film immediately. It wasn't you know.

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Speaker 3: I think if you had told me, oh, it's going

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Speaker 3: to take thirteen years and it's going to be all

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Speaker 3: of this, I probably would have had a little bit

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Speaker 3: more pause. But you know, I'm a writer first and foremost,

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Speaker 3: and I love stories, and this one just spoke to

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Speaker 3: me immediately, incredibly fast, and I was the fastest. As

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Speaker 3: I said, I've ever said yes to anything in my life.

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Speaker 3: I just when I have to, I have to write this,

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Speaker 3: I have to explore these characters. I have to be

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Speaker 3: in that cell with them and sort of discover these

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Speaker 3: things about them because because of the complexity of it,

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Speaker 3: because of the humanity of both of them. I thought,

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Speaker 3: that's what, you know, sort of I think hopefully sets

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Speaker 3: this movie apart, you know, and it is scarier to

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Speaker 3: think of you know, you know Herman Goring as a

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Speaker 3: as a three dimensional character. It's easy to sort of

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Speaker 3: go good guy, bad guy. But you know, the truth

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Speaker 3: of the matter is, you know, people who do monstrous

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Speaker 3: things also do love their wives like we love our wives.

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Speaker 3: They do love their children like we love our children.

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Speaker 3: And I do think that's scarier.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people can tame multitudes, right, That's that's the nature

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Speaker 2: of being a person. So what did you learn about

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Speaker 2: whom and Gurring during this process that prep surprised you

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Speaker 2: the most?

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Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I learned about him was that

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Speaker 3: he was incredibly funny and charming, and everybody sort of

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Speaker 3: agreed on that. You know, someone once described him as

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Speaker 3: the best dinner party guest you'll ever have, which you

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Speaker 3: know is not the you know, that kind of magnetism,

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Speaker 3: a charm is not what you think of I think

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Speaker 3: when you think of the Nazis. That was fascinating to me.

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Speaker 3: And just his his upbringing, some of this where he

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Speaker 3: came from, some of the stories, who he's named after,

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Speaker 3: all of this stuff is in the film just really,

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Speaker 3: you know, sort of sort of knocked my socks off

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Speaker 3: and felt to me like could be an amazing character

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Speaker 3: for an actor to play if we got the right

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Speaker 3: person to do it, and we did with Russell Crowe.

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Speaker 3: He just dove in with both feet and was incredible.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Jack Tame. I'm speaking to James Vanderbilt,

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Speaker 2: who has just directed the film Nuremberg starring Rami Melick

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Speaker 2: and Russell Crowe. Talk to us about working with Russell

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Speaker 2: as fellow New Zealanders. We obviously feel a deep connection

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Speaker 2: and a deep sense of pride about all that Russell

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Speaker 2: has has achieved. But it felt like he had a

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Speaker 2: real presence in this film, and part of that was

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Speaker 2: his performance. Part of that was the way perhaps you

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Speaker 2: treated Hermann Goerring in that he filled the frame a

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Speaker 2: lot of the time in quite a quite an effectful way.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, you know, Guring was very very powerful,

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Speaker 3: and Russell as a performer is very very powerful. And

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Speaker 3: that's absolutely one of the things I wanted. One of

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Speaker 3: the reasons he was my first choice for it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, I wanted so and there's some they're wonderful

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Speaker 3: character actors out there, They're wonderful German actors out there,

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Speaker 3: but that seductive magnetism that you know, the fact that

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Speaker 3: we as audiences have been in love with this guy

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Speaker 3: for twenty five years, We've seen him, we loved him

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Speaker 3: in things. I really wanted to use that sort of

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Speaker 3: screen presence and baggage kind of against you in a way.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I also knew I needed a really

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Speaker 3: great actor, you know, who could do that, who could

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Speaker 3: portray those multitudes. And you know, the thing about Russell

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Speaker 3: is he is a movie star, but he is a

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Speaker 3: leading man. He's a character actor in a leading man's body,

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Speaker 3: and he will go to those places. And you know,

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Speaker 3: he first attached himself to the movie in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 3: and stayed with it for five years of the money

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Speaker 3: coming in and the money falling out, and there were

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Speaker 3: moments where he could have said you know, good luck, mate,

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Speaker 3: I'll show myself out. But I don't think this is

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Speaker 3: going to happen. But he never looked for the door.

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Speaker 3: He always looked for a way to make this movie happen.

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Speaker 3: It wouldn't exist without Russell Crow. And then when we

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Speaker 3: got to shoot it, you know, and I saw him

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Speaker 3: do all of the prep work. I saw him do

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Speaker 3: all the research. You know, he found out of print books,

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Speaker 3: he went over girring speeches as the Reich Marshall when

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Speaker 3: he was in power, you know, and would tell me things,

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Speaker 3: talk to me about how, you know, how Gurring really

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Speaker 3: disliked Gebels, how he didn't feel very good about Himler.

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Speaker 3: He would discover things along the way that we would

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Speaker 3: weave into film. So it was just a tremendous collaboration

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Speaker 3: with a man who certainly has nothing left to prove

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Speaker 3: in his performances, and yet attack this thing like he

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Speaker 3: had everything to prove.

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Speaker 2: Without wanting to give too much away. One of your

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Speaker 2: very conscious decisions in the film is to, as well

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Speaker 2: as all the beautifully shot modern footage, is to use

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Speaker 2: historic footage from the camps. And yes, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: just feel like you could have heard a pin drop,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the theater as those scenes were playing,

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Speaker 2: to talk to us about that decision, because I suppose

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Speaker 2: as audiences it's easy to be caught up and in

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Speaker 2: a you know, in a modern Hollywood narrative, but that

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Speaker 2: really grounds your audience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the very first draft. It was something

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Speaker 3: that I was adamant about that we were going to

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Speaker 3: use the real footage, what they shot in the camps

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Speaker 3: and what was really shown in the courtroom. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I remember that my first ad sort of going, so,

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Speaker 3: how are we going to do this? Are we going

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Speaker 3: to shoot something for I said, no, no, no, We're not

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Speaker 3: gonna shoot anything. This is gonna be the real stuff,

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Speaker 3: the real footage. It's the real narration. And it was

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Speaker 3: just it was very important to me. And as we

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Speaker 3: cast the movie and I talked to the different actors,

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Speaker 3: I sort of would say to them, listen, you know

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Speaker 3: there's the scene in the courtroom. That footage is out there.

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Speaker 3: I know you want to research the movie, but do

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Speaker 3: me a favor, don't watch it because I want you

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Speaker 3: fresh on the day to experience. And they all agreed.

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Speaker 3: And then that, you know, on the day we brought

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Speaker 3: in a real projector we built. We had built the

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Speaker 3: court room to scale to within an inch of it,

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Speaker 3: so that courtroom is as big as the real courtroom

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Speaker 3: in Nuremberg. And we had three hundred extras, and so

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Speaker 3: I went out and I sort of explained to them, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is what's going to happen today. This is what

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Speaker 3: we're going to see. It's the real footage. It's very powerful.

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Speaker 3: And we had a moment of silence, and I set

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Speaker 3: up four cameras to cover there are leads, and then

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Speaker 3: we rolled the film. You know, we didn't have a

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Speaker 3: blue screen. It was the real film being shown. And

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Speaker 3: you know, we have a lot of great actors in

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Speaker 3: this movie. So I don't want to say no acting

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Speaker 3: was required that day, but those images are as powerful now,

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Speaker 3: I think as they were eighty years ago. And that

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Speaker 3: was that was definitely the toughest day on set.

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Speaker 2: Finally, Jimes, what do you hope people get out of

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Speaker 2: this film?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's you know, it's it's funny.

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Speaker 3: I get asked that question, and I go back to

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Speaker 3: I worked with David Fincher many years ago, and and

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Speaker 3: he said something to me that always stuck with me,

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Speaker 3: which is that good movies make you ask questions. Bad

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Speaker 3: movies give you all the answers, and so I don't

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, the wonderful thing about film is,

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Speaker 3: you know, we work really hard and we try and

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Speaker 3: make it as good as we can, but in the end,

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Speaker 3: it belongs to the audience. So I think it's sort

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Speaker 3: of it's up to people to ask their own questions,

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Speaker 3: you know, whatever it spurs and them, whatever it makes

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Speaker 3: them consider or reconsider, I think is a good thing.

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Speaker 3: But I do think, you know, it's important to look

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Speaker 3: backwards in order to move forwards. And you know, we

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Speaker 3: forget the we forget the past at our peril.

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Speaker 2: Well, you should be a me proud for what you

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Speaker 2: have achieved with Nuremberg. Thank you so much for giving

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Speaker 2: us your time and all the very best.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Jack,

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Speaker 3: take care.

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Speaker 2: That is James Vanderbilt. He is the writer and director

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Speaker 2: of Nuremberg and it hits our cinemas this Thursday, December

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Speaker 2: before Don't Forget as well. Tomorrow morning on the Sunday session,

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Speaker 2: Francesca Rudkin is going to be speaking to Russell Crowe

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Speaker 2: about his performance as Herman.

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Speaker 1: Goring for more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame. Listen

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Speaker 1: live to News Talks ed B from nine am Saturday,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio