1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,973 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio, 3 00:00:19,293 --> 00:00:21,053 Speaker 1: Straight down the Middle. 4 00:00:20,773 --> 00:00:28,693 Speaker 2: Of Truck Guy, try to. 5 00:00:28,733 --> 00:00:32,853 Speaker 1: Get inside the game from Every end Goal. It's Rugby 6 00:00:32,893 --> 00:00:36,533 Speaker 1: Direct with Elliott Smith and Leam Napier powered by News 7 00:00:36,573 --> 00:00:37,093 Speaker 1: Talks at B. 8 00:00:38,893 --> 00:00:44,213 Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions and our 9 00:00:44,293 --> 00:00:48,493 Speaker 2: second emergency podcast in as many days. My name is 10 00:00:48,533 --> 00:00:52,413 Speaker 2: Elliott Smith. I am used talk zibb's Rugby editor. I 11 00:00:52,493 --> 00:00:56,253 Speaker 2: don't have my usual co host, Liam Napier with me today. 12 00:00:56,493 --> 00:01:00,453 Speaker 2: He has gone off on camping, so hopefully he's managed 13 00:01:00,493 --> 00:01:03,493 Speaker 2: to stay dry and he stayed out of the news 14 00:01:03,533 --> 00:01:06,533 Speaker 2: that has broken today, which is as I'm sure you're 15 00:01:06,573 --> 00:01:09,533 Speaker 2: all aware by now that All Black Head coach Scott 16 00:01:09,613 --> 00:01:13,413 Speaker 2: Robertson is now former All Blacks head coach Scott Robertson. 17 00:01:13,733 --> 00:01:16,853 Speaker 2: He has parted ways with New Zealand Rugby. They came 18 00:01:16,933 --> 00:01:20,373 Speaker 2: to an agreement. It's been termed that they would go 19 00:01:20,453 --> 00:01:25,293 Speaker 2: in a different direction and Robertson would be removed. David Kirk, 20 00:01:25,493 --> 00:01:28,893 Speaker 2: the chair of New Zealand Rugby, fronted Media where we'll 21 00:01:28,933 --> 00:01:31,213 Speaker 2: hear from him in a moment some of the clips 22 00:01:31,573 --> 00:01:34,053 Speaker 2: when he spoke to the media and New Zealand Herald 23 00:01:34,133 --> 00:01:37,333 Speaker 2: Rugby columnist Gregor Paul is poised to draw me on 24 00:01:37,413 --> 00:01:40,653 Speaker 2: Rugby direct to talk through what this means for Robertson, 25 00:01:40,693 --> 00:01:44,013 Speaker 2: for the All Blacks for New Zealand Rugby, but first 26 00:01:44,053 --> 00:01:46,773 Speaker 2: and foremost, David Kirk was asked a number of questions 27 00:01:47,013 --> 00:01:50,293 Speaker 2: in about a twenty five minute media conference today. He 28 00:01:50,413 --> 00:01:52,773 Speaker 2: was asked, was there a specific area here that the 29 00:01:52,813 --> 00:01:54,293 Speaker 2: All Blacks weren't on tracking? 30 00:01:55,333 --> 00:01:58,933 Speaker 3: I think, you know, high performance environments like the Alls 31 00:01:58,973 --> 00:02:02,053 Speaker 3: are very You can't disaggregate them and say this was 32 00:02:02,133 --> 00:02:05,093 Speaker 3: right and that was wrong. The environment is either working 33 00:02:05,173 --> 00:02:07,093 Speaker 3: or it isn't, and there's a whole range of different 34 00:02:09,013 --> 00:02:12,773 Speaker 3: components to that. But it's much more sensible to think 35 00:02:12,773 --> 00:02:17,533 Speaker 3: about the environment delivering performance, which is delivering trajectory for 36 00:02:17,613 --> 00:02:21,893 Speaker 3: where we need to go, improvements, learning, adaptability, all those 37 00:02:21,933 --> 00:02:23,733 Speaker 3: sorts of things that we need to be doing, and 38 00:02:23,773 --> 00:02:27,373 Speaker 3: then the environment needs to be set up to deliver. 39 00:02:27,933 --> 00:02:29,973 Speaker 3: And so I think it's it's it's better to consider 40 00:02:30,253 --> 00:02:33,573 Speaker 3: in a broader trajectory sense than it is to try 41 00:02:33,613 --> 00:02:35,173 Speaker 3: and disaggregate. 42 00:02:34,733 --> 00:02:35,453 Speaker 4: With the environment. 43 00:02:35,773 --> 00:02:37,773 Speaker 2: And I asked him, was this a captain's school that 44 00:02:37,853 --> 00:02:38,693 Speaker 2: he made alone? 45 00:02:38,933 --> 00:02:40,493 Speaker 3: No, not at all. This is the this is the 46 00:02:40,493 --> 00:02:44,533 Speaker 3: board call. All all the material that was presented, that 47 00:02:44,653 --> 00:02:47,853 Speaker 3: was collected was presented to the board and discussed in 48 00:02:47,973 --> 00:02:53,613 Speaker 3: detail at a board meeting that lasted two or three hours. 49 00:02:54,333 --> 00:02:56,613 Speaker 3: So the board is c was cross all the material 50 00:02:57,333 --> 00:03:01,573 Speaker 3: and all the board directors had lots of questions and 51 00:03:02,293 --> 00:03:07,813 Speaker 3: lots of discussion. Obviously management, hyperformance, management, and Steve Vancaster, 52 00:03:07,893 --> 00:03:12,973 Speaker 3: the acting CEO, was at the board meeting, and following 53 00:03:13,013 --> 00:03:15,853 Speaker 3: all of that discussion, the board was yunanimous in the 54 00:03:15,893 --> 00:03:18,533 Speaker 3: directions it gave with regard to the conversations with the 55 00:03:18,573 --> 00:03:19,053 Speaker 3: head coach. 56 00:03:19,293 --> 00:03:21,253 Speaker 2: I also asked him whether he had addressed the current 57 00:03:21,333 --> 00:03:23,453 Speaker 2: All Blacks players engage their reaction. 58 00:03:23,973 --> 00:03:28,213 Speaker 3: Yes, we've spoken to the to the leadership group before 59 00:03:28,653 --> 00:03:37,573 Speaker 3: the announcement and their reaction was they just absorbed it. 60 00:03:38,133 --> 00:03:41,613 Speaker 3: They were they were, They went there to to they 61 00:03:41,613 --> 00:03:44,893 Speaker 3: didn't asked me any questions and they didn't you have any 62 00:03:45,613 --> 00:03:47,413 Speaker 3: any any, any real strong. 63 00:03:47,173 --> 00:03:48,973 Speaker 4: Response, and I was. 64 00:03:49,133 --> 00:03:51,253 Speaker 2: I asked him, rather, did he address the remaining All 65 00:03:51,293 --> 00:03:54,373 Speaker 2: Blacks coaches and management alongside those All Blacks players? 66 00:03:54,573 --> 00:03:54,773 Speaker 4: Yes? 67 00:03:54,853 --> 00:03:56,533 Speaker 3: No, Well, we talked to the there was separate, We 68 00:03:56,573 --> 00:03:59,213 Speaker 3: talked to the players, and then we talked to the 69 00:03:59,573 --> 00:04:02,293 Speaker 3: wide and the whole management group which is quite large 70 00:04:02,293 --> 00:04:05,253 Speaker 3: as you would know, and took them through the process 71 00:04:05,293 --> 00:04:08,773 Speaker 3: and and where where where they arrived at and the 72 00:04:08,853 --> 00:04:11,893 Speaker 3: mutual agreement with A Scott that he would step down. 73 00:04:12,293 --> 00:04:15,293 Speaker 2: And he was asked whether he expected the remaining coaches 74 00:04:15,333 --> 00:04:16,533 Speaker 2: and management to stay on. 75 00:04:16,933 --> 00:04:18,813 Speaker 4: I don't know. I have no doe that. 76 00:04:19,053 --> 00:04:22,973 Speaker 3: I see no reason why not. They committed and doing 77 00:04:23,013 --> 00:04:25,333 Speaker 3: a and must have been doing a great job. 78 00:04:25,693 --> 00:04:27,533 Speaker 2: I suspect there'll be further changes to the All Blacks 79 00:04:27,533 --> 00:04:29,653 Speaker 2: coaching staff, but that might be a matter for down 80 00:04:29,733 --> 00:04:32,613 Speaker 2: the track once a new head coach takes on the role. 81 00:04:32,773 --> 00:04:35,973 Speaker 2: Joining us on Rugby Direct now to discuss all of 82 00:04:35,973 --> 00:04:39,253 Speaker 2: what we've just heard now with David Kirk, the ramifications 83 00:04:39,293 --> 00:04:43,213 Speaker 2: for the All Blacks, Scott Robertson for New Zealand Rugby 84 00:04:43,253 --> 00:04:45,773 Speaker 2: and who might take on this job? Gregor Paul New 85 00:04:45,853 --> 00:04:49,333 Speaker 2: Zealand rugby columnist and writer joins us now. Of course 86 00:04:49,373 --> 00:04:51,933 Speaker 2: you hear him on our news talk Zerbe commentaries on 87 00:04:52,013 --> 00:04:55,253 Speaker 2: the All Blacks overseas matches and it's his first time 88 00:04:55,293 --> 00:04:59,493 Speaker 2: I believe on Rugby directs A Gregor welcome first and foremost. 89 00:04:59,693 --> 00:05:03,093 Speaker 2: Were you surprised by this decision from New Zealand Rugby. 90 00:05:03,373 --> 00:05:04,653 Speaker 4: Well, thanks for having me earlier. 91 00:05:06,133 --> 00:05:11,013 Speaker 5: No, to be to be blunt, I think you and 92 00:05:11,053 --> 00:05:13,693 Speaker 5: I were were You know, we were on that tour 93 00:05:13,733 --> 00:05:15,373 Speaker 5: together at the end of the year and we were 94 00:05:15,413 --> 00:05:19,533 Speaker 5: talking as that tour developed, particularly after the All Blacks 95 00:05:19,573 --> 00:05:23,053 Speaker 5: lost that Test match to England and you know, was 96 00:05:23,133 --> 00:05:27,973 Speaker 5: quite an insipid and underwhelming performance, that we were aware 97 00:05:29,173 --> 00:05:32,653 Speaker 5: that there were increasing issues that we were hearing about 98 00:05:33,213 --> 00:05:36,733 Speaker 5: within the team and unhappiness with certain players about selection, 99 00:05:37,493 --> 00:05:43,373 Speaker 5: confusion about strategical approach, even uncertainty about the division of 100 00:05:43,453 --> 00:05:47,653 Speaker 5: labor within the coaching teams. You know who was the 101 00:05:47,693 --> 00:05:50,773 Speaker 5: head coach? Was it Razor, was it Scott Hansen? How 102 00:05:50,893 --> 00:05:54,573 Speaker 5: was all that working through? And it was clear from 103 00:05:54,613 --> 00:05:57,573 Speaker 5: the noise coming out of the team, the performances that 104 00:05:57,613 --> 00:06:02,093 Speaker 5: we were witnessing, the recidivus defending around, lack of discipline, 105 00:06:02,693 --> 00:06:07,853 Speaker 5: melting down after halftime, you know, lack of composure, lack 106 00:06:07,893 --> 00:06:11,573 Speaker 5: of ability to finish half chances when they were presented, 107 00:06:12,333 --> 00:06:16,853 Speaker 5: that there were clearly deep issues within the environment, within 108 00:06:16,893 --> 00:06:20,693 Speaker 5: the setup and yeah, no, I'm not surprised at all 109 00:06:21,013 --> 00:06:22,333 Speaker 5: they've made that decision. 110 00:06:22,493 --> 00:06:23,973 Speaker 2: There was a point, is you see, on the end 111 00:06:23,973 --> 00:06:26,893 Speaker 2: of your tourre it just felt like something was off. 112 00:06:26,933 --> 00:06:29,253 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to go into specifics necessarily of 113 00:06:29,693 --> 00:06:32,933 Speaker 2: conversations that we've had with people, but it felt like 114 00:06:33,013 --> 00:06:36,493 Speaker 2: the vibes for one of a better term weren't there 115 00:06:36,893 --> 00:06:38,293 Speaker 2: in the closing weeks of that tour. 116 00:06:39,733 --> 00:06:41,573 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that'd been building for a while, 117 00:06:41,613 --> 00:06:46,213 Speaker 5: though I think it manifested fairly obviously. You know, round 118 00:06:46,213 --> 00:06:49,693 Speaker 5: about the end of that tour, particularly after the defeat 119 00:06:49,693 --> 00:06:53,653 Speaker 5: to England, which to me was epitomized. There was a 120 00:06:53,693 --> 00:06:57,973 Speaker 5: moment that you will recall when after halftime Coddy Taylor 121 00:06:57,973 --> 00:07:01,173 Speaker 5: had been yellow carded, Bordon Barrett was kept on the 122 00:07:01,173 --> 00:07:03,173 Speaker 5: field even though he was playing on one leg, and 123 00:07:03,213 --> 00:07:06,933 Speaker 5: the All Black's got penalty which they didn't know what 124 00:07:06,973 --> 00:07:09,173 Speaker 5: to do with. They couldn't kicked for gold because they 125 00:07:09,173 --> 00:07:11,373 Speaker 5: didn't have a goalkicker, they didn't want to put it 126 00:07:11,453 --> 00:07:13,373 Speaker 5: out because they didn't have a hooker on the field, 127 00:07:14,093 --> 00:07:16,893 Speaker 5: and in the end they decided to tap a play 128 00:07:16,933 --> 00:07:18,773 Speaker 5: two phases and kick the ball up in the air. 129 00:07:19,333 --> 00:07:22,213 Speaker 5: And that to me was the moment where there was 130 00:07:22,253 --> 00:07:26,333 Speaker 5: such an obvious breakdown between the coaching box and the 131 00:07:26,413 --> 00:07:29,453 Speaker 5: senior players that they were not on the same page. 132 00:07:30,573 --> 00:07:33,533 Speaker 5: I don't think the coaching staff took responsibility for their 133 00:07:33,613 --> 00:07:37,213 Speaker 5: role in that, and to me that was really the 134 00:07:37,213 --> 00:07:40,453 Speaker 5: illustrative point where you watch an all black team as 135 00:07:40,453 --> 00:07:43,853 Speaker 5: a Scotsman, watching an all black team behaving as if 136 00:07:43,853 --> 00:07:46,453 Speaker 5: they're Scotland, then you know there's a problem. 137 00:07:47,053 --> 00:07:49,053 Speaker 2: Well, yes, to an extend, but they only got out 138 00:07:49,053 --> 00:07:52,053 Speaker 2: of jail the week prior, didn't they obviously against Scotland 139 00:07:52,133 --> 00:07:56,453 Speaker 2: dead Edinburghan and in a way, Damien mckinziy's heroics papered 140 00:07:56,453 --> 00:07:57,733 Speaker 2: over some of the cracks there too. 141 00:07:58,413 --> 00:08:01,053 Speaker 5: Yep, yeah, and you could I don't know if you 142 00:08:01,053 --> 00:08:03,653 Speaker 5: could make the same argument to go back another week to. 143 00:08:03,613 --> 00:08:06,093 Speaker 4: The Island game where they were battling away. 144 00:08:06,293 --> 00:08:10,013 Speaker 5: Until the final quarter, because I mean, to some extent 145 00:08:10,053 --> 00:08:12,293 Speaker 5: that's the nature of test match Ragby, isn't it. You know, 146 00:08:12,533 --> 00:08:14,573 Speaker 5: you don't break a team like Ireland until late in 147 00:08:14,613 --> 00:08:18,733 Speaker 5: the game. But clearly I thought they escaped in Edinburgh 148 00:08:19,173 --> 00:08:22,893 Speaker 5: more because of Scotland's inability to hit the killer blow 149 00:08:22,893 --> 00:08:26,813 Speaker 5: when they had the chance and England were just too good, 150 00:08:27,293 --> 00:08:29,493 Speaker 5: you know, they were a better team than Scotland. They 151 00:08:29,533 --> 00:08:31,773 Speaker 5: got given half a chance to win the game and 152 00:08:31,813 --> 00:08:36,133 Speaker 5: they took it. But really the most damning evidence was 153 00:08:36,213 --> 00:08:41,813 Speaker 5: that whole statistical portfolio around you know, the points steff 154 00:08:41,973 --> 00:08:46,853 Speaker 5: sit in minutes forty to fifty nine, where it was 155 00:08:46,893 --> 00:08:50,333 Speaker 5: a consistent pattern where the All Blacks just consistently melted 156 00:08:50,373 --> 00:08:53,853 Speaker 5: down in that period, And you've got to look at 157 00:08:53,853 --> 00:08:56,093 Speaker 5: that and go, why did that happen, What was happening 158 00:08:56,133 --> 00:09:01,533 Speaker 5: at halftime, what was the replacement strategy, what earse was 159 00:09:01,573 --> 00:09:05,413 Speaker 5: going on? Yeah, you know, because it's a really stunning 160 00:09:05,413 --> 00:09:06,853 Speaker 5: set of numbers to look at. 161 00:09:06,933 --> 00:09:10,453 Speaker 2: It simly, isn't in David Kirk referenced that the whole 162 00:09:10,493 --> 00:09:13,213 Speaker 2: they went into in the third quarter today as well, 163 00:09:13,213 --> 00:09:15,093 Speaker 2: if we take a couple of steps back to twenty 164 00:09:15,093 --> 00:09:18,453 Speaker 2: twenty three when he was appointed, you look back at 165 00:09:18,453 --> 00:09:20,973 Speaker 2: that process now you look back at the appointments. You 166 00:09:21,013 --> 00:09:22,933 Speaker 2: can say it in hindsight whatever, but do they get 167 00:09:22,933 --> 00:09:23,973 Speaker 2: this wrong in the first place? 168 00:09:24,973 --> 00:09:27,173 Speaker 5: Well, I don't think I'm saying it with hindsight. I 169 00:09:27,213 --> 00:09:30,493 Speaker 5: was saying at the time, you know it, it was 170 00:09:30,533 --> 00:09:35,213 Speaker 5: a poorly run ill conceived process, and if I'm honest 171 00:09:35,253 --> 00:09:39,293 Speaker 5: with you, having you know gol Stritten, the and Foster's biography, 172 00:09:40,733 --> 00:09:45,213 Speaker 5: Mike Gutfield here is the CEO. Insid R CEO Mike 173 00:09:45,293 --> 00:09:49,653 Speaker 5: Robinson had a poor relationship with Ian Foster from the 174 00:09:49,733 --> 00:09:56,093 Speaker 5: start of Foster and Robertson's Robinson's tenure. They never got on. 175 00:09:56,773 --> 00:10:01,173 Speaker 5: Things got worse during the tenure, and really, I feel 176 00:10:01,373 --> 00:10:05,293 Speaker 5: inside are convinced themselves that they couldn't work with Foster, 177 00:10:05,533 --> 00:10:08,173 Speaker 5: regardless of whether he won the World Cup, didn't win 178 00:10:08,173 --> 00:10:10,973 Speaker 5: the World Cup, or whatever. They just wanted shot of him. 179 00:10:11,693 --> 00:10:14,773 Speaker 5: And they decided that Razor was going to be the 180 00:10:14,853 --> 00:10:19,973 Speaker 5: antidote to all the perceived problems that they had with Foster, 181 00:10:20,453 --> 00:10:23,533 Speaker 5: and they didn't get They ran a process to give 182 00:10:23,613 --> 00:10:26,933 Speaker 5: Robertson the job, and it's not clear to me whether 183 00:10:27,013 --> 00:10:30,493 Speaker 5: he was the right guy for that job, because I 184 00:10:30,493 --> 00:10:33,413 Speaker 5: don't think any other candidates got put in front of 185 00:10:33,413 --> 00:10:37,333 Speaker 5: the board to properly assess. And I think they've paid 186 00:10:37,333 --> 00:10:42,853 Speaker 5: a price for making a change without necessarily establishing if 187 00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:45,293 Speaker 5: Robertson was well enough qualified to. 188 00:10:45,253 --> 00:10:48,253 Speaker 2: Do that job and the assistance that came with him 189 00:10:48,293 --> 00:10:52,653 Speaker 2: into that job. Two of them went Scott Hansen reportedly 190 00:10:52,733 --> 00:10:55,493 Speaker 2: the subject of criticism following the end of year to 191 00:10:57,293 --> 00:11:01,093 Speaker 2: the whole team has come in for some real criticism 192 00:11:01,333 --> 00:11:03,573 Speaker 2: over the basis of the last couple of years, haven't. 193 00:11:03,373 --> 00:11:05,493 Speaker 4: They Well, look, here's the thing. 194 00:11:05,573 --> 00:11:08,533 Speaker 5: Razor applied for the job in two nineteen and he 195 00:11:08,533 --> 00:11:10,973 Speaker 5: didn't get it, and some of the feedback he got 196 00:11:11,213 --> 00:11:15,293 Speaker 5: was your wider coaching team lacks a bit of experience, 197 00:11:15,373 --> 00:11:17,333 Speaker 5: lacks a bit of quality, lacks a bit of something. 198 00:11:18,413 --> 00:11:22,253 Speaker 5: In twenty twenty two, he represented when it was possible 199 00:11:22,253 --> 00:11:24,813 Speaker 5: that Ian Foster was going to be removed. He represented 200 00:11:24,853 --> 00:11:27,693 Speaker 5: with the same group of assistants and got told the 201 00:11:27,733 --> 00:11:31,533 Speaker 5: same thing, You're missing something in that coaching team. You know, 202 00:11:31,853 --> 00:11:34,493 Speaker 5: could you bring in Joe Schmidt, for example, to strengthen it. 203 00:11:34,773 --> 00:11:39,253 Speaker 5: He said no, or Joe Schmidt said no, And again 204 00:11:39,653 --> 00:11:42,413 Speaker 5: Robertson got overlooked for the job. They retained Ian Foster. 205 00:11:43,173 --> 00:11:46,453 Speaker 5: Come twenty twenty three, when he's interviewed for the third time, 206 00:11:47,053 --> 00:11:50,653 Speaker 5: he presents the same group of people, but this time 207 00:11:51,133 --> 00:11:58,133 Speaker 5: with no material difference in their international exposure. They say, yes, yep, 208 00:11:58,453 --> 00:12:02,013 Speaker 5: that group is now good enough. Now what changed their minds? 209 00:12:02,293 --> 00:12:06,893 Speaker 5: What changed you know those in those intervening years, because 210 00:12:07,013 --> 00:12:10,213 Speaker 5: none of them were coaching really at a high level 211 00:12:10,213 --> 00:12:12,613 Speaker 5: of international rugby. 212 00:12:13,253 --> 00:12:16,133 Speaker 2: The player power issue has been talked about a little bit. 213 00:12:16,573 --> 00:12:20,973 Speaker 2: Do you think that the players wanted Scott Robertson gone? 214 00:12:21,453 --> 00:12:24,613 Speaker 5: I think the players wanted to be part of an 215 00:12:24,773 --> 00:12:27,293 Speaker 5: environment that they felt was going to get the best 216 00:12:27,333 --> 00:12:31,773 Speaker 5: out of them and get the best out of the team. 217 00:12:32,093 --> 00:12:36,133 Speaker 5: I don't think there was anything personal or a desire 218 00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:41,133 Speaker 5: to you know, put you know, kind of gun to 219 00:12:41,173 --> 00:12:44,733 Speaker 5: the head pressure of ns ARE and say hey, you 220 00:12:45,253 --> 00:12:47,813 Speaker 5: fire this bloker. We all disappeared. I don't think that 221 00:12:47,933 --> 00:12:53,173 Speaker 5: ever happened. I think they just gave comprehensive, honest, authentic 222 00:12:53,293 --> 00:12:58,933 Speaker 5: feedback to NZR about where they thought Robertson was at, 223 00:12:58,973 --> 00:13:02,973 Speaker 5: whereas coaching team were at. And I think they probably 224 00:13:03,613 --> 00:13:08,893 Speaker 5: knew that their feedback would be powerful enough to paint 225 00:13:08,893 --> 00:13:12,093 Speaker 5: a picture that would leave Robertson in an untenable position. 226 00:13:12,613 --> 00:13:14,893 Speaker 4: But I don't. I think it's unfair. 227 00:13:14,533 --> 00:13:17,333 Speaker 5: To characterize it as player power. I think it's unfair 228 00:13:17,373 --> 00:13:20,493 Speaker 5: to characterize it as a player revolt. I think guys 229 00:13:20,493 --> 00:13:23,693 Speaker 5: who cared deeply about the all black jersey gave an 230 00:13:23,693 --> 00:13:28,373 Speaker 5: honest opinion with the hope that either changes would be 231 00:13:28,453 --> 00:13:32,373 Speaker 5: made to help Robertson improve or changes would be made 232 00:13:32,373 --> 00:13:37,973 Speaker 5: to remove Robertson and do something to change the environment ends. 233 00:13:38,413 --> 00:13:40,653 Speaker 2: Speaking of change, where do you think they go to now? 234 00:13:40,693 --> 00:13:42,813 Speaker 2: For the All Blacks coach Jamie Joseph's name has been 235 00:13:43,213 --> 00:13:45,173 Speaker 2: bandied around. They're going to have to make an appointment 236 00:13:45,173 --> 00:13:49,133 Speaker 2: relatively quickly. You would have to think to get you know, 237 00:13:49,133 --> 00:13:51,413 Speaker 2: who have his feet under the desk. So this is 238 00:13:51,453 --> 00:13:54,813 Speaker 2: going to happen, happen relatively quickly from an All Blacks perspective. 239 00:13:54,733 --> 00:13:56,973 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think they probably need to be careful about 240 00:13:57,013 --> 00:13:59,933 Speaker 5: not doing it too quickly, you know, because there's not 241 00:13:59,973 --> 00:14:04,293 Speaker 5: a Test match until July. No, admittedly you want to 242 00:14:04,333 --> 00:14:08,893 Speaker 5: have guys in place to be selecting, you know, and 243 00:14:09,213 --> 00:14:11,413 Speaker 5: having a good look at players across the country and 244 00:14:11,493 --> 00:14:14,773 Speaker 5: working together. But you know, I remember two thousand and four, 245 00:14:14,933 --> 00:14:19,293 Speaker 5: Hanson and Wayne Smith were the two pointed assistants. Both 246 00:14:19,293 --> 00:14:23,373 Speaker 5: of them remained in the UK because Hanson was coaching 247 00:14:23,413 --> 00:14:28,213 Speaker 5: Wales and Smith was coaching Northampton, so they stayed in 248 00:14:28,213 --> 00:14:32,133 Speaker 5: the UK until until May June and then came home. 249 00:14:32,613 --> 00:14:34,293 Speaker 5: So sort of hit the ground running if you like, 250 00:14:35,293 --> 00:14:40,013 Speaker 5: and I think you don't necessarily want your head coach 251 00:14:40,093 --> 00:14:41,893 Speaker 5: to be out of the country until that late in 252 00:14:41,933 --> 00:14:44,453 Speaker 5: the piece. But it's not the worst thing in the 253 00:14:44,453 --> 00:14:46,813 Speaker 5: world if you don't have a head coach and play 254 00:14:47,013 --> 00:14:50,573 Speaker 5: until March April, if that's what it takes to get 255 00:14:50,573 --> 00:14:54,933 Speaker 5: the right person or the right people. So I would 256 00:14:54,973 --> 00:14:59,573 Speaker 5: just say, take a breath, get it. They've done stage one, 257 00:14:59,613 --> 00:15:04,213 Speaker 5: which is they've announced Robertson's leaving. Kirk has said the 258 00:15:04,293 --> 00:15:08,413 Speaker 5: job is open, and now I think we all know 259 00:15:08,493 --> 00:15:12,373 Speaker 5: who the potential candidates are, don't we. Jamie Joseph's day 260 00:15:12,413 --> 00:15:16,693 Speaker 5: for any even Ian Foster, a return, return for Fozzy. 261 00:15:16,773 --> 00:15:19,733 Speaker 5: You know, it's not out of the question. Uh, you 262 00:15:19,733 --> 00:15:21,973 Speaker 5: know Pat Lambers in the UK. I'm trying to think 263 00:15:22,013 --> 00:15:23,813 Speaker 5: off the top of my head earlier other names. I mean, 264 00:15:23,853 --> 00:15:26,213 Speaker 5: we all know who the you know who the Kiwi 265 00:15:26,293 --> 00:15:29,373 Speaker 5: cultures are with the with the relevant body of experience 266 00:15:30,013 --> 00:15:33,133 Speaker 5: to be credible. Varonkosa here in New Zealand be another 267 00:15:33,173 --> 00:15:37,173 Speaker 5: one the guys that you would go Okay, let's let's 268 00:15:37,213 --> 00:15:40,733 Speaker 5: make sure that all of these guys are aware of 269 00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:45,853 Speaker 5: the the situation and give them an opportunity to apply 270 00:15:46,613 --> 00:15:48,693 Speaker 5: or even if one or two of them get together 271 00:15:48,733 --> 00:15:50,573 Speaker 5: and present themselves as a package. 272 00:15:50,653 --> 00:15:52,133 Speaker 2: That was the question I was going to say, because 273 00:15:52,133 --> 00:15:54,813 Speaker 2: we circle back to the point about Robertson's team. How 274 00:15:54,853 --> 00:15:58,333 Speaker 2: important that the team is right for this All Blacks 275 00:15:58,333 --> 00:16:00,493 Speaker 2: and not just the head coach the name on the 276 00:16:01,213 --> 00:16:03,333 Speaker 2: band of the name put up on lights. But the 277 00:16:03,453 --> 00:16:05,453 Speaker 2: right coaching team is appointed here. 278 00:16:06,253 --> 00:16:07,573 Speaker 4: Yeah, like that that's critical. 279 00:16:07,573 --> 00:16:09,413 Speaker 5: But there's two ways that you can go around getting 280 00:16:09,453 --> 00:16:12,253 Speaker 5: the right coaching team. Now, the mistakes that have been 281 00:16:12,293 --> 00:16:14,933 Speaker 5: made in the past were if you go back to 282 00:16:14,973 --> 00:16:21,373 Speaker 5: the even the two nineteen process, both Body and Foster 283 00:16:21,613 --> 00:16:25,653 Speaker 5: and Scott Robertson, who were the two main head coaching candidates, 284 00:16:26,213 --> 00:16:30,093 Speaker 5: got told they had to present with a ready made team. 285 00:16:30,493 --> 00:16:35,213 Speaker 5: Now what happened there was there wasn't enough talent available 286 00:16:36,293 --> 00:16:39,293 Speaker 5: for both of them, so they started scrapping over individuals, 287 00:16:39,773 --> 00:16:43,613 Speaker 5: and in the end, a guy like Jason Ryan wasn't 288 00:16:43,613 --> 00:16:46,853 Speaker 5: able to be appointed to the All Blacks because he'd 289 00:16:46,853 --> 00:16:50,493 Speaker 5: aligned himself with Scott Robertson. Now that's not a criticism 290 00:16:50,493 --> 00:16:54,773 Speaker 5: with Jason, that's a criticism of the process. So should 291 00:16:54,773 --> 00:16:58,053 Speaker 5: you just appoint a head coach and then say to 292 00:16:58,093 --> 00:17:00,413 Speaker 5: that head coach. You're the right head coach. You know, 293 00:17:00,493 --> 00:17:03,413 Speaker 5: I need to go and find the right team to 294 00:17:03,453 --> 00:17:06,453 Speaker 5: put around you and we'll help you do that, or 295 00:17:06,453 --> 00:17:09,573 Speaker 5: potentially in this because of the the sudden nature of this, 296 00:17:10,253 --> 00:17:14,573 Speaker 5: potentially if you know, if Jimmy Joseph says, look, hey, 297 00:17:14,933 --> 00:17:19,453 Speaker 5: I can bring Dave re Annie and here's a critical. 298 00:17:22,293 --> 00:17:23,813 Speaker 4: With South Africa. 299 00:17:24,253 --> 00:17:26,573 Speaker 5: If there's some way to prize them out of that 300 00:17:26,653 --> 00:17:30,373 Speaker 5: contract and put him into onto Jimmy's ticket, And if 301 00:17:30,413 --> 00:17:33,133 Speaker 5: Jimmy can say, hey, it's me Dave, Rennie and Tony Brown, 302 00:17:34,813 --> 00:17:37,053 Speaker 5: then that's a pretty compelling package. But I don't think 303 00:17:37,133 --> 00:17:41,693 Speaker 5: candidates should be required to present whether already made team. 304 00:17:42,093 --> 00:17:43,653 Speaker 5: I think ends that I actoually just have an open 305 00:17:43,733 --> 00:17:46,013 Speaker 5: mind about how they want us to go through. 306 00:17:46,413 --> 00:17:50,093 Speaker 2: Just finally, grigor grateful for your time. You focus on 307 00:17:50,133 --> 00:17:53,093 Speaker 2: the you know, the business side of sporting in many ways, 308 00:17:53,133 --> 00:17:55,813 Speaker 2: What does this say about New Zealand Rugby as an 309 00:17:55,933 --> 00:17:59,333 Speaker 2: organization with the backdrop I guess of silver ac and 310 00:17:59,413 --> 00:18:02,453 Speaker 2: the All Blacks being the brand that brings in you 311 00:18:02,453 --> 00:18:04,893 Speaker 2: know that the bacon for New Zealand Rugby, what is 312 00:18:04,893 --> 00:18:07,693 Speaker 2: this announcement said about I guess where they're at. They 313 00:18:07,693 --> 00:18:11,573 Speaker 2: don't have a sea, a CFO, a CCO, but David 314 00:18:11,653 --> 00:18:14,173 Speaker 2: Kirk has taken on his shoulders along with the board 315 00:18:14,253 --> 00:18:16,173 Speaker 2: to make a pretty significant call here. So what does 316 00:18:16,213 --> 00:18:18,333 Speaker 2: it say about New Zealand rugby as we head into 317 00:18:18,333 --> 00:18:19,173 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. 318 00:18:20,013 --> 00:18:23,293 Speaker 5: Well, it says, regardless of the fact that those executive 319 00:18:23,333 --> 00:18:27,333 Speaker 5: positions that you've listed off there remain unfilled at the moment, 320 00:18:28,093 --> 00:18:31,493 Speaker 5: that they have a board and certainly a chair who 321 00:18:31,533 --> 00:18:38,773 Speaker 5: recognizes that New Zealand's commercial ambition highly on its ability 322 00:18:39,493 --> 00:18:44,133 Speaker 5: to persuade the world that it is a high functioning, 323 00:18:44,893 --> 00:18:50,013 Speaker 5: winning rugby team that is viewed by most people to 324 00:18:50,093 --> 00:18:54,493 Speaker 5: be their best in the world or are highly likely 325 00:18:55,373 --> 00:18:57,853 Speaker 5: to be in any conversation around being the best of 326 00:18:57,893 --> 00:18:58,293 Speaker 5: the world. 327 00:18:58,893 --> 00:19:02,413 Speaker 2: Greg A Paul, New Zealand Herald rugby columnist and writer 328 00:19:02,573 --> 00:19:06,973 Speaker 2: joining us on Rugby Direct that about does this. But 329 00:19:07,093 --> 00:19:09,653 Speaker 2: this has been a fascinating forty eight hours in the 330 00:19:09,693 --> 00:19:14,533 Speaker 2: history of New Zealand's national sport. That is for certain 331 00:19:14,653 --> 00:19:18,453 Speaker 2: watch the space for further developments. Like Liam, I am 332 00:19:18,773 --> 00:19:20,973 Speaker 2: hitting off on a little bit of a holiday next week. 333 00:19:21,053 --> 00:19:23,493 Speaker 2: There might be further developments. You might have some different 334 00:19:23,573 --> 00:19:25,813 Speaker 2: voices jumping in and if there is more breaking news 335 00:19:26,093 --> 00:19:30,333 Speaker 2: over the next seven to eight days of rugby in 336 00:19:30,413 --> 00:19:32,893 Speaker 2: this country until next time on Rugby Direct. My thanks 337 00:19:32,933 --> 00:19:35,493 Speaker 2: to Mark Kelly for producing and Gregor Paul for joining me. 338 00:19:35,733 --> 00:19:39,893 Speaker 2: That has been Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, celebrated 339 00:19:39,973 --> 00:19:42,813 Speaker 2: twenty five years in business. 340 00:19:53,013 --> 00:19:55,973 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks, EDB, listen live on air 341 00:19:56,133 --> 00:19:58,853 Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you 342 00:19:58,893 --> 00:20:01,333 Speaker 1: go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.