Speaker 1: Kiota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. You may
Speaker 2: have heard something recently about the Epstein files. Nearly six
Speaker 2: years after the disgraced financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 2: died in prison, he has once again become the center
Speaker 2: of political controversy in the United States. It's after the
Speaker 2: Justice Department decided not to release more detailed records from
Speaker 2: the Epstein investigation, with Attorney General Pam Bondie concluding he
Speaker 2: did not leave behind a so called client list. But
Speaker 2: that hasn't stopped the avalanche of speculation and major MAGA
Speaker 2: infighting over the apparent lack of transparency. So has that
Speaker 2: been a major cover up or have we succumbed to
Speaker 2: another kennedyesque conspiracy and there's actually nothing to see here.
Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Associated Press Washington correspondent Eric
Speaker 2: Tucker will take us through the latest in the Epstein saga.
Speaker 2: First off, Eric, are you able to give us a
Speaker 2: little bit of background on this Epstein scandal?
Speaker 3: Sure so. Jeffrey Epstein was a very wealthy New York
Speaker 3: financer who had connections with really significant powerful people in
Speaker 3: the United States, both political figures and celebrities, and he
Speaker 3: was arrested in twenty nineteen on sex trafficking charges. He
Speaker 3: was basically accused of having sexual relationships with underage girls
Speaker 3: at different properties. And one of the things that I
Speaker 3: think is really captured the public's attention is that weeks
Speaker 3: after his arrests, he was found dead in his New
Speaker 3: York jail cell, and the authorities quickly determined that that
Speaker 3: was a suicide. But there have been in the ensuing
Speaker 3: years all sorts of theories and questions as to whether
Speaker 3: or not in fact, it was a suicide, and conspiracy
Speaker 3: theorists sprout around that, and then there have been questions
Speaker 3: about who exactly his friends were, and who might have
Speaker 3: traveled with him, and who might have engaged in any
Speaker 3: kind of similar activity with this miss Epstein.
Speaker 2: What was promised earlier this year by the Trump administration,
Speaker 2: so the.
Speaker 3: Justice Department and the FBI had committed to releasing the
Speaker 3: investigative file from the Epstein case. This is actually something
Speaker 3: that Donald Trump, who is himself an associate of Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 3: had talked about on the campaign trail, and this was
Speaker 3: a pledge that we had heard repeatedly from Attorney General
Speaker 3: Pam Bondi. In February, she was asked in a Fox
Speaker 3: News interview whether it was true that she was going
Speaker 3: to release the quote unquote client list, and she nodded
Speaker 3: her head and said that was sitting on her desk.
Speaker 1: Pleasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Speaker 2: Well, that really happen.
Speaker 4: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's
Speaker 4: been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. I'm
Speaker 4: reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process
Speaker 4: of being reviewed because that was done at the directive
Speaker 4: of the president from all of these agencies.
Speaker 3: She has since said that she was referring to the
Speaker 3: entire Epstein case file as being on her desk, and
Speaker 3: so the public over the course of several months began
Speaker 3: to anticipate that there was likely going to be significant
Speaker 3: revelations that were going to be released by the federal government.
Speaker 2: Right now. A lot of names in this case household
Speaker 2: names in New Zealand. So can you tell me who
Speaker 2: the main characters are in this case?
Speaker 3: So, Pam Bondi is someone who had been the attorney
Speaker 3: General of the state of Florida. She is a Trump loyalist.
Speaker 3: She'd actually defended Donald Trump in one of his impeachment
Speaker 3: cases here in the United States, and she's very close
Speaker 3: to the president. Cash Battel is somebody who is a
Speaker 3: sort of bombastic podcast presidence, former federal prosecutor. And Dan
Speaker 3: Bongino is a former Secret Service agent who came as
Speaker 3: a deputy director. Now to understand the anger that's happened
Speaker 3: in certain conservative circles and supporters of Donald Trump, is
Speaker 3: important to note what these three people had said in
Speaker 3: the past prior in some cases to them joining the government.
Speaker 3: So Hash Battel and Dan Bongino, the two leaders of
Speaker 3: the FBI, are two people who had openly promoted some
Speaker 3: of the conspiracy theories that are really driving the narrative.
Speaker 3: They had openly questioned the idea about whether Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 3: had been in fact murdered instead of committed suicide. They
Speaker 3: had talked about a cover up in the government. So
Speaker 3: these are people who, prior to joining the FBI, had
Speaker 3: talked about and sort of raised the hope expectation that
Speaker 3: they were going to release and going to be able
Speaker 3: to make public all sorts of documents, and they contributed
Speaker 3: I believe to the public anticipation that perhaps there had
Speaker 3: been a cover of perhaps there were documents that had
Speaker 3: not been yet seen, and I think the anger of
Speaker 3: some of Donald Trump's face has to be sort of
Speaker 3: recognized against that.
Speaker 2: Fact, right, So were there some was where the file
Speaker 2: was released recently.
Speaker 3: So the only thing that was released, the only thing
Speaker 3: sort of fairly new was a recording of Jeffrey Epstein's
Speaker 3: jail cell, and the recording was meant to definitively put
Speaker 3: to rest any suspicion about the circumstance of his death.
Speaker 3: But even that contained a missing minute that fueled conspiracy
Speaker 3: theorists that perhaps the JUST perm was still holding on
Speaker 3: to something that it should have released. But beyond that, though,
Speaker 3: the JUST Department, in a two page memo last week
Speaker 3: that's caused a lot of consternation, said it had concluded
Speaker 3: that it wasn't going to release any other information because
Speaker 3: he said the materials that didn't reviewed were pornographic in
Speaker 3: nature and not fit for public consumption. There was no
Speaker 3: public value, so they didn't release anything. And they also
Speaker 3: said that there was no client list, so that he
Speaker 3: didn't maintain a list of clients that didn't come upon it.
Speaker 3: And again, this is something that when you think about
Speaker 3: the Attorney General Pambondi's earlier comments back in February, she
Speaker 3: had sort of promoted the idea that such a client
Speaker 3: list existed. So again we saw lots of anger after
Speaker 3: that revelation. Right, So we.
Speaker 2: Don't know whether there is or isn't a client list.
Speaker 2: Everyone says that there isn't, but there may be. I mean,
Speaker 2: what do you reckon, Eric.
Speaker 3: So we're still trying to report out exactly what happened.
Speaker 3: One thing I should note is that FBI and just
Speaker 3: department investigators, many of them were pulled off of their
Speaker 3: day jobs during the last several months to review all
Speaker 3: sorts of records of related to the Epstein case file.
Speaker 3: So there's no question there's a lot of documentation, There's
Speaker 3: a lot of paperwork. There are a lot of documents
Speaker 3: and records and information that the public is not seeing,
Speaker 3: separate apart from whatever pornographic information the Attorney General is
Speaker 3: talking about, and we're not seeing any of that. Now.
Speaker 3: Is it possible as something could be released later? I
Speaker 3: suppose that's possible. But President Trump has taken a really
Speaker 3: specific stance on this. He has really sort of come
Speaker 3: out in support of the Justice Department and their decision,
Speaker 3: and he has shut off questions about Jeffrey Epstein said
Speaker 3: it's time to move on, time to turn the page.
Speaker 3: He's thrown his support fully behind Attorney General Bondie, So
Speaker 3: he's made it clear he's done talking about as has
Speaker 3: the Attorney General. So clearly the Just Department is really
Speaker 3: trying to move forward away from this. How big of
Speaker 3: a blowback is there right now in MAGA world specifically.
Speaker 1: It's pretty big. I have to be honest. It's just
Speaker 1: a red line that it crosses for many people. Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Epstein is literally the most well known convicted pedophile and
Speaker 1: modern day history. This is something that's been talked about
Speaker 1: by many people serving in the administration, myself and many
Speaker 1: others on the right and the left, of their needing
Speaker 1: to be transparency of the rich and powerful elites that
Speaker 1: were in his circle while he was just one of
Speaker 1: the worst serial abusers of young women.
Speaker 2: I see political figures from both sides of the aisle
Speaker 2: demanding more transparency. That seems a bit unusual on this
Speaker 2: side of the world. The likes of Marjorie Taylor Green
Speaker 2: and House Democrats agreeing on something.
Speaker 4: Does that happen often?
Speaker 3: It does not happen often, not in this polarized climate
Speaker 3: in Washington at all. And it's sort of hard, you'll explain,
Speaker 3: you know, It's easier to understand a little bit the
Speaker 3: perspective of the Trump supporters who believed and sort of
Speaker 3: had held the expectation that their own Justice Department, the
Speaker 3: people who they had supported, were going to release this
Speaker 3: information they had wanted. I think Democrats now are suspicious
Speaker 3: as to what is in these files that the Trump
Speaker 3: White House and the Trump US Department isn't allowing into
Speaker 3: into the spotlight. You know. One of the things that's
Speaker 3: worth noting is that this just department had talked a
Speaker 3: lot of this FBI in particular, had talked a lot
Speaker 3: about transparency and accountability. That's been sort of those are
Speaker 3: buzzwords from cash Hotel and Dan Bung Gino, And so
Speaker 3: there are people who feel sort of let down that
Speaker 3: this does not an example of transparency or accountability in terms.
Speaker 2: Of releasing the files, Like how hard would it be
Speaker 2: for them to release them? I understand that there will
Speaker 2: be sensitive information in but for example, here, you'd ask
Speaker 2: the government for something and if they don't or can't
Speaker 2: legally tell you something, then they just black it out.
Speaker 2: Is that something similar that happens in the US, or
Speaker 2: if they release something that has to be full transparency.
Speaker 3: No, that's an outstanding question, and I think it is
Speaker 3: certainly the norm, just as you mentioned here in the
Speaker 3: Justice Department, that people who are not charged, who are
Speaker 3: not accused of wrongdoing, but whose names might surface an investigation,
Speaker 3: it is not the custom to release their names into
Speaker 3: the wild, and so there should presumably be a mechanism
Speaker 3: to redact it. And again that it's a great question.
Speaker 3: We don't know why in this case they made a
Speaker 3: decision not to release the information with black doubt or redacted,
Speaker 3: you know, big black lines through them. I suspect though,
Speaker 3: that that would not have satiated the public desire for
Speaker 3: more transparency and information to a release records, but not
Speaker 3: have given the names. I think part of what's really
Speaker 3: driving this is there's this sense and the suspicion that
Speaker 3: there are all sorts of big, powerful names here, and
Speaker 3: part of that is in fact based in the fact
Speaker 3: that you know, celebrities and big political figures did in
Speaker 3: fact fly on Jeffrey Epstein's plane. He was really well
Speaker 3: known to people who are, you know, former presidents. But
Speaker 3: again there's been no public allegation, no suspicion that anybody
Speaker 3: other than Jeffrey Epstein and another person who was charged
Speaker 3: a law with him, a former British socialite girlfriend named
Speaker 3: Glene Maxwell. Well they're the only two have ever been
Speaker 3: accused of any sexual wrongdoings.
Speaker 2: People are saying that the magabase mad at Trump, but
Speaker 2: is that actually the case or is that kind of
Speaker 2: I suppose the mainstream media finding something controversial to talk about.
Speaker 3: I think that the brunt of the anger is falling
Speaker 3: on the leaders of the FBI and the Just Department.
Speaker 3: I do think there's anger at Trump, and sort of
Speaker 3: confusion as to why Trump, who had promised on the
Speaker 3: campaign trail to promote the release of this information, suddenly
Speaker 3: not releasing it. So yeah, there is anger, but I
Speaker 3: do think we're hearing more anger directed at Cash Betel
Speaker 3: and Dan Bongino and Pambondi.
Speaker 5: Mister resident, I know you've urged people to move on,
Speaker 5: but I'm curious, why do you think your supporters in
Speaker 5: particular have been so interested in the Epstein story and
Speaker 5: so upset about how it's been handled.
Speaker 6: Do you think that is why they would be so interested?
Speaker 6: And he's dead for a long time. He was never
Speaker 6: a big factor in terms of life. I don't understand
Speaker 6: what the interest or what the fascination is. I really
Speaker 6: don't have the credible information has been given. Don't forget
Speaker 6: we went through years of the follow which hunted all
Speaker 6: of the different things, the Steele dossier, which was all faked.
Speaker 6: All that information is made. But I don't understand why
Speaker 6: the Jeffrey Epste case would be of interest to anybody.
Speaker 6: It's pretty boring stuff.
Speaker 2: Do you think that this will have a lasting effect
Speaker 2: on Trump's legacy? I suppose, But he is quite quick
Speaker 2: to sweep things under the carpet, isn't he.
Speaker 3: It's hard to say, you know, the news cycle in
Speaker 3: the United States moves very quickly these days. I think
Speaker 3: there's no question that the Epstein story has had staying power,
Speaker 3: though it's captured the public's attention for years in some ways,
Speaker 3: and this is sort of an example of what has
Speaker 3: happened when people who have promoted kind of frankly conspiracy
Speaker 3: theories and uncorroborated thoughts prior to arrival, and government are
Speaker 3: now suddenly in the positions of power where they can
Speaker 3: deliver on those pledges to you know, dismantle the deep
Speaker 3: state or unlock the secrets of the deep state, And
Speaker 3: so that anger has sort of built up in surfaced,
Speaker 3: and the story has had legs.
Speaker 2: I suppose it has all of the makings of a
Speaker 2: really good conspiracy theory, doesn't it. It's got famous names,
Speaker 2: it's got you know, as soon as all those flight
Speaker 2: logs came out, people were searching the Internet for photos
Speaker 2: of them at parties. And it's got all of that.
Speaker 2: It's got the secrecy, it's got the mysteriousness. And like
Speaker 2: you said as well, those people who were pushing that
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory now actually getting into power. Do you think
Speaker 2: it's now been a case that they've gotten in to
Speaker 2: the FBI, I say, and realized that it's not as
Speaker 2: easy as to release information as one may have thought legally.
Speaker 3: That's absolutely true. I think there's there's no question about that.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that I think we haven't
Speaker 3: talked about this's worth noting, is that the two leaders
Speaker 3: of the FBI were very quick, I think, being able
Speaker 3: to correctly see around the corner. They use different interview appearances,
Speaker 3: you know, over the course of really frankly weeks to
Speaker 3: tell people, Hey, I know you may think that Jeffrey
Speaker 3: Epstein was murdered, but we've seen the video ourselves. He
Speaker 3: committed suicide. There's no doubt. And so I think that
Speaker 3: was their early signal of sort of frankly a recognition
Speaker 3: that some of the things they had said or sort
Speaker 3: of foreshadowed or forecasts weren't going to come to pass.
Speaker 3: But there's no question, as you said, that it's proven
Speaker 3: difficult for people who are now empowered to make good
Speaker 3: on some of those pledges.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, what should the public expect next?
Speaker 3: We're all sort of waiting to see. There was a
Speaker 3: blow up at the White House last week between Pambondi,
Speaker 3: the Attorney General, and FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino. He
Speaker 3: actually was reported to have not come to work on
Speaker 3: Friday to sort of contemplate his fate, and people close
Speaker 3: to him said that he was considering resigning. But he's
Speaker 3: apparently back at work, so we're waiting to see how
Speaker 3: that shakes out. But obviously this has delta blood of
Speaker 3: the relationship that he has had with his boss. Pam Bondi.
Speaker 3: So that's gonna be one dynamic to watch. There are
Speaker 3: other people on sort of far right conservative internet personalities
Speaker 3: and public figures who have posted online without any corroboration.
Speaker 3: They have spoken to their sources who say the Justice
Speaker 3: Department is poised to rethink its position and that more
Speaker 3: information could be disclosed in the coming weeks. We have
Speaker 3: no indication that's true, though, and the Just Department is
Speaker 3: preparing to walk to go back on his earlier position.
Speaker 3: We have no reason to think that that's true. But
Speaker 3: it's again anticipated, building anticipation.
Speaker 2: It's been six years since Jeffrey Epstein died. Do you
Speaker 2: reckon this will be the last that we hear about him?
Speaker 2: Or is this turning into a kind of JFK? Is
Speaker 2: the moon landing real situation? Are we still going to
Speaker 2: be talking about this in like five decades time?
Speaker 3: Only that Trump administration hopes that this story's over. The
Speaker 3: Attorney General appear in an unrelated news conference today she
Speaker 3: want to take any questions about her that I'm not talking
Speaker 3: about Jeffrey Epstein. President Trump has said we're done talking
Speaker 3: about him. Died six years ago, as you mentioned, so
Speaker 3: you know it's hard to say whether this will have
Speaker 3: that same kind of staying power, but there's no question
Speaker 3: that Trump administration is really working hard to turn the
Speaker 3: page and I don't want to face any more questions
Speaker 3: about this. Thanks for joining us, Eric, Oh, thank you,
Speaker 3: great conversation. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Siles and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.