1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,427 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:11,747 Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZEDB. 3 00:00:12,587 --> 00:00:15,067 Speaker 2: One of the big sporting stories of the week broke 4 00:00:15,187 --> 00:00:19,347 Speaker 2: on Monday. The Age in Australia reported that cricket officials 5 00:00:19,347 --> 00:00:23,747 Speaker 2: from India, Australia and England were meeting to discuss the 6 00:00:23,867 --> 00:00:28,627 Speaker 2: possibility of Test cricket fragmenting to allow for more series 7 00:00:28,947 --> 00:00:33,147 Speaker 2: between the sports big players. The potential new structure would 8 00:00:33,187 --> 00:00:38,467 Speaker 2: see Test cricket split into two tiers. India, Australia England 9 00:00:38,547 --> 00:00:41,987 Speaker 2: would be joined by South Africa, New Zealand, Pakistan and 10 00:00:42,067 --> 00:00:45,467 Speaker 2: Sri Lanka in the top tier. The second tier would 11 00:00:45,507 --> 00:00:49,067 Speaker 2: be made up of the West Indies, Bangladesh, Ireland, Afghanistan 12 00:00:49,187 --> 00:00:52,227 Speaker 2: and Zimbabwe, with the likes of the Netherlands and Scotland 13 00:00:52,227 --> 00:00:56,747 Speaker 2: who are not currently full Test playing nations, theoretically moving 14 00:00:56,867 --> 00:01:01,107 Speaker 2: in to complete two separate pools of seven. This has 15 00:01:01,187 --> 00:01:04,987 Speaker 2: created a lot of discussion around the place. Veteran Australian 16 00:01:05,027 --> 00:01:08,467 Speaker 2: cricket broadcaster Jim Well joins us on Weekend Sport to 17 00:01:08,507 --> 00:01:11,787 Speaker 2: discuss Jim, thanks for your time. What's your overall view 18 00:01:12,107 --> 00:01:16,867 Speaker 2: of the proposal for a two tiered Test cricket system. 19 00:01:17,867 --> 00:01:20,387 Speaker 3: I don't think it's a very good idea for the 20 00:01:20,427 --> 00:01:23,427 Speaker 3: future of the game, but I mean it all comes 21 00:01:23,467 --> 00:01:27,307 Speaker 3: down to these commercial realities that we're being confronted with 22 00:01:28,107 --> 00:01:32,467 Speaker 3: in the battle between T twenty franchises and the importance 23 00:01:32,507 --> 00:01:38,667 Speaker 3: of bilateral cricket continuing, particularly Test cricket. So I'm afraid 24 00:01:38,667 --> 00:01:41,347 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, it's like an avalanche 25 00:01:41,707 --> 00:01:44,587 Speaker 3: and it's controlled to a large extent by the power 26 00:01:44,627 --> 00:01:49,187 Speaker 3: of money from India. They're controlling the most of what 27 00:01:49,387 --> 00:01:52,227 Speaker 3: goes on the gate, with the TV rights and the 28 00:01:52,227 --> 00:01:55,587 Speaker 3: rest of it. So my line really as far as 29 00:01:56,187 --> 00:02:01,387 Speaker 3: our Australia's concerned, is simply if it doesn't pay, don't play. 30 00:02:01,587 --> 00:02:03,867 Speaker 3: And that's pretty much what a cricket Australia have been 31 00:02:03,907 --> 00:02:07,427 Speaker 3: doing in the last few years, play against New Zealand, 32 00:02:07,467 --> 00:02:11,427 Speaker 3: where we're certainly not playing Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan or Island. 33 00:02:12,507 --> 00:02:15,267 Speaker 3: And we may have done that in years gone by 34 00:02:15,387 --> 00:02:18,387 Speaker 3: when there was this altruism in the world of cricket 35 00:02:18,587 --> 00:02:23,187 Speaker 3: wherebhy you wanted to help and whatever the expansion of 36 00:02:23,227 --> 00:02:28,147 Speaker 3: the game. But I think unfortunately in the current situation 37 00:02:28,347 --> 00:02:31,507 Speaker 3: of the scheduling of the game and as I say, 38 00:02:31,547 --> 00:02:35,267 Speaker 3: t twenty franchises getting bigger and bigger. Look at your blokes, 39 00:02:35,307 --> 00:02:38,027 Speaker 3: they're all going off somewhere to play, and you can't 40 00:02:38,067 --> 00:02:41,387 Speaker 3: deny them the opportunity to do that because it'll be 41 00:02:41,427 --> 00:02:44,787 Speaker 3: a restraint of trade. So I don't think it's got 42 00:02:44,827 --> 00:02:49,267 Speaker 3: many leggs really, this idea, and the it's sad say 43 00:02:49,307 --> 00:02:51,867 Speaker 3: the rich will get richer and the poor will struggle. 44 00:02:52,267 --> 00:02:55,387 Speaker 2: So okay, so you don't think it will happen, but 45 00:02:55,667 --> 00:02:58,147 Speaker 2: there will still be a sense of the likes of 46 00:02:58,187 --> 00:03:02,267 Speaker 2: Australia in the England playing one another more often than 47 00:03:02,387 --> 00:03:04,227 Speaker 2: the leaser lights of teest cricket. 48 00:03:05,227 --> 00:03:07,187 Speaker 3: Well, it seems to be the way a lot of 49 00:03:07,187 --> 00:03:11,427 Speaker 3: people wanted to move because you know, they want the 50 00:03:11,507 --> 00:03:14,107 Speaker 3: one of the dollars that come from the most attractive 51 00:03:14,387 --> 00:03:17,067 Speaker 3: form of the game, and that's really the top three 52 00:03:17,147 --> 00:03:20,907 Speaker 3: nations playing with a little bit of Pakistan, New Zealand 53 00:03:21,387 --> 00:03:24,587 Speaker 3: South Africa have thrown in, but as we've seen, even 54 00:03:24,667 --> 00:03:28,107 Speaker 3: South Africa have been struggling to put their best team 55 00:03:28,147 --> 00:03:30,507 Speaker 3: out the play test cricket. You know that from last 56 00:03:30,587 --> 00:03:33,387 Speaker 3: year when they visited New Zealand with the second rate 57 00:03:33,547 --> 00:03:37,587 Speaker 3: side and yet here they are playing in the final. 58 00:03:38,667 --> 00:03:42,227 Speaker 3: So I think that the whole business of WTC is 59 00:03:42,227 --> 00:03:45,907 Speaker 3: probably in jeopardy the longer we go, because it's only 60 00:03:45,947 --> 00:03:48,667 Speaker 3: going to be the top six nations and no one 61 00:03:48,747 --> 00:03:50,787 Speaker 3: else will get a look in. I mean, if you 62 00:03:50,867 --> 00:03:53,267 Speaker 3: have a two tiered system, whether or not you have 63 00:03:53,347 --> 00:03:57,547 Speaker 3: promotion and relegation, I don't see how those other nations 64 00:03:57,587 --> 00:03:59,547 Speaker 3: in West Indies two could be one of them. One 65 00:03:59,547 --> 00:04:03,067 Speaker 3: of the greatest powers of the game historically. It might 66 00:04:03,107 --> 00:04:05,387 Speaker 3: even be England if they have a bad year or two. 67 00:04:05,627 --> 00:04:07,427 Speaker 3: I don't see how going to get up and fight 68 00:04:07,467 --> 00:04:11,947 Speaker 3: again against the top teams if this system comes into play. 69 00:04:12,387 --> 00:04:17,267 Speaker 3: So it looks it's a convenience really for those who 70 00:04:17,307 --> 00:04:20,227 Speaker 3: are controlling the game to do what they want to do, 71 00:04:20,307 --> 00:04:22,707 Speaker 3: and they'll doll had a bit of dosh to everyone else, 72 00:04:23,227 --> 00:04:26,267 Speaker 3: but it won't be enough to sustain Test cricket in 73 00:04:26,307 --> 00:04:29,347 Speaker 3: a meaningful way for the LAC nations. 74 00:04:29,907 --> 00:04:33,347 Speaker 2: Defindia, Australia and England played each other more often, how 75 00:04:33,427 --> 00:04:36,747 Speaker 2: much would that dilute the special nature of those series? 76 00:04:38,307 --> 00:04:40,427 Speaker 3: I think it did a few years ago when we 77 00:04:40,507 --> 00:04:45,707 Speaker 3: played England back to back. We played in thirteen fifteen 78 00:04:46,387 --> 00:04:49,107 Speaker 3: and then nineteen that was over there, and then here 79 00:04:49,467 --> 00:04:52,627 Speaker 3: we played two series as well, So I think it 80 00:04:52,707 --> 00:04:56,587 Speaker 3: did at the time dilute the value of the contest. 81 00:04:57,507 --> 00:05:00,907 Speaker 3: But plenty of people turn up and a lot of 82 00:05:00,947 --> 00:05:04,467 Speaker 3: eyeballs out there, so you can justify it on the 83 00:05:04,507 --> 00:05:08,067 Speaker 3: basis of a commercial opera, and that's more and more 84 00:05:08,147 --> 00:05:14,667 Speaker 3: where we're going with this unfortunately, so I don't see 85 00:05:14,707 --> 00:05:17,387 Speaker 3: any way of stopping it. That's the problem. As much 86 00:05:17,427 --> 00:05:20,707 Speaker 3: as we might think that it's important to have this 87 00:05:20,827 --> 00:05:23,867 Speaker 3: expansion of the game, it will be limited to playing 88 00:05:23,907 --> 00:05:28,067 Speaker 3: at the Olympic Games T twenty competitions perhaps, but Test 89 00:05:28,107 --> 00:05:30,707 Speaker 3: cricket now it will only be played by those that 90 00:05:30,867 --> 00:05:31,827 Speaker 3: can afford. 91 00:05:31,467 --> 00:05:35,587 Speaker 2: To That's a very sad state of affairs, isn't it, Jim, 92 00:05:35,627 --> 00:05:39,507 Speaker 2: Given the storied history of red ball international cricket. 93 00:05:40,667 --> 00:05:43,867 Speaker 3: Well, what we're saying is really test cricket will survive, 94 00:05:44,587 --> 00:05:47,067 Speaker 3: and a lot of people would be arguing that this 95 00:05:47,227 --> 00:05:50,347 Speaker 3: is the only way for it to survive. For the 96 00:05:50,387 --> 00:05:54,347 Speaker 3: countries that can afford to play continue to play it. 97 00:05:54,787 --> 00:05:58,227 Speaker 3: But we'll actually were really taking the game back to 98 00:05:58,267 --> 00:06:04,747 Speaker 3: where it was sixty seventy years ago, before any of well, Pakistan, 99 00:06:04,827 --> 00:06:08,387 Speaker 3: Sri Lanka, you name it. These other countries came into play. 100 00:06:09,467 --> 00:06:12,867 Speaker 3: So I think Test cricket is going to survive, but 101 00:06:13,147 --> 00:06:16,707 Speaker 3: not in the ideal form of trying to have more 102 00:06:16,787 --> 00:06:20,547 Speaker 3: countries playing Test cricket, because, as I say, they can't 103 00:06:20,587 --> 00:06:21,067 Speaker 3: afford to. 104 00:06:21,707 --> 00:06:25,947 Speaker 2: What then of the West Indies, Jim this incredible cricket 105 00:06:26,027 --> 00:06:30,267 Speaker 2: nation that gave us greener chains, Richards Lloyd Doujon Marshall 106 00:06:30,307 --> 00:06:33,987 Speaker 2: Garner holding that wonderful team of the eighties. Am I 107 00:06:34,027 --> 00:06:36,427 Speaker 2: just being a bit naive and missed the idea to 108 00:06:36,507 --> 00:06:40,387 Speaker 2: suggest that they will continue to be a Test cricket participant. 109 00:06:41,787 --> 00:06:44,747 Speaker 3: Well, you could worry about South Africa similarly. I mean 110 00:06:45,227 --> 00:06:48,507 Speaker 3: they've always historically been a power until they have the 111 00:06:48,747 --> 00:06:52,467 Speaker 3: part ideas and they've come back quite strongly. But at 112 00:06:52,467 --> 00:06:54,507 Speaker 3: the moment they're a bit of this and that because 113 00:06:55,627 --> 00:06:59,027 Speaker 3: they're playing rosters compromised by people like the cock who 114 00:06:59,107 --> 00:07:02,227 Speaker 3: just want to play limited overs cricket, and the fact 115 00:07:02,227 --> 00:07:04,627 Speaker 3: that a lot of their players can only earn a 116 00:07:04,707 --> 00:07:08,907 Speaker 3: leaving by playing in T twenty franchises, not for their country. 117 00:07:09,267 --> 00:07:11,187 Speaker 3: So you've got an issue there as well. But the 118 00:07:11,227 --> 00:07:16,267 Speaker 3: West Indies is a very unusual case because really the 119 00:07:16,267 --> 00:07:19,947 Speaker 3: West Indies only exists as a cricket team. It's not 120 00:07:20,507 --> 00:07:25,547 Speaker 3: a democratic an economic power. It's a group of islands 121 00:07:25,827 --> 00:07:27,867 Speaker 3: in that part of the world. And you know, if 122 00:07:27,987 --> 00:07:32,747 Speaker 3: cricket's to be sustained at the next level, the Olympic 123 00:07:32,867 --> 00:07:34,987 Speaker 3: Games and the rest of it, will it be a 124 00:07:35,027 --> 00:07:38,147 Speaker 3: West Indies team or will it be Barbatas and Antigua 125 00:07:38,267 --> 00:07:42,787 Speaker 3: like the Comwealth Games. So it's under enormous pressure anyway 126 00:07:42,787 --> 00:07:48,187 Speaker 3: in terms of playing collectively in a meaningful way in 127 00:07:48,267 --> 00:07:51,507 Speaker 3: Test cricket. But well, at least in the short term, 128 00:07:51,547 --> 00:07:54,987 Speaker 3: thank goodness, Australia, it's playing three Tests against them over 129 00:07:55,027 --> 00:07:56,067 Speaker 3: there later in the year. 130 00:07:56,267 --> 00:07:59,027 Speaker 2: Indeed, So if we do look forward, then gim what 131 00:07:59,187 --> 00:08:02,747 Speaker 2: is the best way for Test cricket to survive and 132 00:08:02,867 --> 00:08:06,587 Speaker 2: hopefully thrive, you know, in the face of this, this 133 00:08:06,667 --> 00:08:10,427 Speaker 2: perpetual growth of T twenty cricket around the world, franchise cricket, 134 00:08:10,427 --> 00:08:12,427 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Is this the best way that 135 00:08:12,747 --> 00:08:16,707 Speaker 2: as you've outlined the you know, you play if you 136 00:08:16,747 --> 00:08:19,667 Speaker 2: can pay or if it pays, And that's where we're 137 00:08:19,667 --> 00:08:20,987 Speaker 2: looking at the next little while. 138 00:08:22,387 --> 00:08:26,347 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, yes, I mean, you know, I don't want to 139 00:08:26,387 --> 00:08:29,347 Speaker 3: be a sort of pessimistic, cynical about it, But in 140 00:08:29,347 --> 00:08:32,787 Speaker 3: fact I'm very optimistic about the growth of cricket. But 141 00:08:32,867 --> 00:08:35,587 Speaker 3: Test cricket is only part of that. It's really through 142 00:08:35,627 --> 00:08:40,027 Speaker 3: the agency of white ball ten twenty that you're going 143 00:08:40,027 --> 00:08:43,547 Speaker 3: to see the growth of cricket men and women. I mean, 144 00:08:43,587 --> 00:08:46,187 Speaker 3: we're trying to get women to play more Test matches. 145 00:08:46,467 --> 00:08:48,907 Speaker 3: But goodness, gracious, dare I say it? News it It 146 00:08:49,027 --> 00:08:53,507 Speaker 3: won't play test cricket, will they? I've got an issue, 147 00:08:53,667 --> 00:08:57,587 Speaker 3: got an issue there. So I think, as I say, 148 00:08:57,627 --> 00:08:59,787 Speaker 3: I think there will be a way for Test cricketers 149 00:08:59,827 --> 00:09:03,827 Speaker 3: allor right, but it won't be in a futuristic way 150 00:09:04,547 --> 00:09:07,427 Speaker 3: that we imagined a few years ago when the number 151 00:09:07,427 --> 00:09:11,667 Speaker 3: of countries expanded and we were hoping, as I say, 152 00:09:11,747 --> 00:09:17,507 Speaker 3: that those peripheral teams like Afghanistan and Ireland in particular, 153 00:09:17,587 --> 00:09:20,307 Speaker 3: who recently came in will be part of it. I 154 00:09:20,387 --> 00:09:21,547 Speaker 3: just don't think it's going to work. 155 00:09:22,147 --> 00:09:25,147 Speaker 2: Just to finish, if we're talking money and we are, 156 00:09:25,787 --> 00:09:32,307 Speaker 2: how influential will India's desire in any decision making around 157 00:09:32,347 --> 00:09:33,747 Speaker 2: cricket continue to be? 158 00:09:35,347 --> 00:09:37,947 Speaker 3: Oh, well, it's going to it's going to be the 159 00:09:37,987 --> 00:09:43,787 Speaker 3: way ahead. Really, what India wants India will get and 160 00:09:43,987 --> 00:09:50,347 Speaker 3: that transfers across to these ICC events, which basically give 161 00:09:51,187 --> 00:09:56,627 Speaker 3: the ICC the finance to continue to have the Champions Trophy, 162 00:09:56,667 --> 00:10:01,667 Speaker 3: the World Cups, the WTC for that matter. So if 163 00:10:01,867 --> 00:10:05,907 Speaker 3: India aren't supporting that, then it's going to change. It's 164 00:10:05,907 --> 00:10:11,907 Speaker 3: going to so we need to have their superpower, I suppose, 165 00:10:12,307 --> 00:10:17,827 Speaker 3: their control to sustain the game. That's the unfortunate situation 166 00:10:17,987 --> 00:10:21,667 Speaker 3: in some ways, but at the moment it seems to 167 00:10:21,667 --> 00:10:24,387 Speaker 3: be working. Okay. You've got to say, at least India 168 00:10:24,427 --> 00:10:26,987 Speaker 3: are playing a lot of Test cricket, a lot more 169 00:10:26,987 --> 00:10:30,627 Speaker 3: than Australia and South Africa for that matter, and I 170 00:10:30,707 --> 00:10:33,987 Speaker 3: worry more about the fact that because of the dollar, 171 00:10:34,507 --> 00:10:39,907 Speaker 3: Australia in particular, along with South Africa, will be playing 172 00:10:39,987 --> 00:10:42,507 Speaker 3: less Test cricket and more of the one day stuff. 173 00:10:42,547 --> 00:10:45,747 Speaker 3: You know, Australia did not play a Test match between 174 00:10:45,787 --> 00:10:49,147 Speaker 3: the end of that New Zealand series in March April 175 00:10:49,267 --> 00:10:53,427 Speaker 3: last year until November, and they're only playing ten Test 176 00:10:53,467 --> 00:10:57,587 Speaker 3: matches this year. So unfortunately, I think the dye is 177 00:10:57,707 --> 00:11:01,547 Speaker 3: cast in terms of the shape of the game, and 178 00:11:01,587 --> 00:11:02,707 Speaker 3: that's a worry. Jim. 179 00:11:03,507 --> 00:11:05,507 Speaker 2: You're preach into the converted over here, we've got no 180 00:11:05,667 --> 00:11:08,347 Speaker 2: test cricket the first three months of the home summer, 181 00:11:08,467 --> 00:11:11,067 Speaker 2: or sorry, the three months of the calendar year. Normally 182 00:11:11,107 --> 00:11:14,427 Speaker 2: we look forward to red ball cricket here in January, February, 183 00:11:14,427 --> 00:11:18,427 Speaker 2: March and to April. None not a single international red 184 00:11:18,467 --> 00:11:21,667 Speaker 2: ball game to be seen. So yeah, it's an interesting 185 00:11:21,707 --> 00:11:23,507 Speaker 2: time ahead for the game on both sides of the 186 00:11:23,507 --> 00:11:26,027 Speaker 2: Tasman and around the world. Thanks for joining us across 187 00:11:26,067 --> 00:11:29,387 Speaker 2: New Zealand. Really appreciate your expertise. Jeers, Jason, all the best, 188 00:11:29,387 --> 00:11:31,307 Speaker 2: All the best to you too, Jim Jim Maxwell. There 189 00:11:31,987 --> 00:11:35,587 Speaker 2: a voice that is well known. He's seen a lot 190 00:11:35,627 --> 00:11:36,867 Speaker 2: of things in the game of cricket. 191 00:11:37,627 --> 00:11:40,827 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live 192 00:11:40,907 --> 00:11:44,227 Speaker 1: to News Talk sed B weekends from midday or follow 193 00:11:44,227 --> 00:11:45,867 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.